Greater Daemons from Plasma Squads

[minigun762]

Looking over the Greater Daemon's stats, its sure looks like a steal for the killing power you get.

 

I firmly believe its a waste to kill a Power Fist Champion to get him, however what about naked Champions from Plasmagun squads? They often hang out in their Rhino dumping Plasma onto the enemy, so would being able to summon a MC that can assault the turn it hits be a total waste?

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I've been considering getting a Greater Daemon into my army. I think this would work, but the main issue would be having the plasma squad that close. If you are just camping inside your rhino you are wasting a lot of the squad. Also, you probably don't want the squad in too close and so would often be wasting the GDs ability to charge the turn it was summoned.

 

So i think it works, and is better than taking a chosen squad just for the cheap champ, but even so its still clunky.

[chillin]

You know, I'm always up for trying something new (gotta have something to keep our attention in this lame dex.)

It jsut so happens that I am experiencing w/ naked champ in plaz squads, just for the + 1 Ld. and +1 attack for 15 pts.

I will take it a step farther and use him 2 summon a GD.

Might be the best way to get a GD in there.

[Draeden]

It's a little expensive but I have played a 2500pt game where I used 4 Greater Daemons. I was attempting to summon them off a squad of Terminator Champions. Quite expensive but I was wanting to deepstrike the terminators then summon greater daemons. It was a bit of a hit and miss but overall I'd say it's great. Even if it summons on the back line, so long as it isn't late in the game, they tend to be able to chug through to the enemy and take out a number of them before it goes down. I remember mine needing concentrated fire from Obliterators and Fire Frenzy Chaos Dreds to take one down....

[Drudge Dreadnought]

It's a little expensive but I have played a 2500pt game where I used 4 Greater Daemons. I was attempting to summon them off a squad of Terminator Champions. Quite expensive but I was wanting to deepstrike the terminators then summon greater daemons. It was a bit of a hit and miss but overall I'd say it's great. Even if it summons on the back line, so long as it isn't late in the game, they tend to be able to chug through to the enemy and take out a number of them before it goes down. I remember mine needing concentrated fire from Obliterators and Fire Frenzy Chaos Dreds to take one down....

 

Was it apoc? Cause you can only take 1 in normal games.

 

 

 

I'm trying to think of other options for bringing them in so i can use one in my slaaneshi army at some point. I don't use regular marines, so the plasma gun squad isn't really an option. What i'm thinking is to do a 6 man chosen squad (sacred number) with a naked champ. This would most likely be a 5 flamer squad, or 4 flamer 1 power fist, and in the fluff of the army would act as my Sorcerer's command squad. My tentative fluff for my sorc is that he is the Choir Master for the Celestial (daemonic) Choir of the warband (composed of sonic weaponry). The flamers would be mini doom sirens. Its a pretty cool image of a sorcerer leading a command squad of veterans who's songs of praise to Slaanesh tear their enemies to shreds, and who's champion gives himself up to a keeper of secrets to help in the fight.

[Important]

I tried out lesser and greater daemons with my word bearers. They work great if you are offensive with your squads in rhinos for example. A tip is if you just have one squad in rhino to get close for when you are going to summon they will be shot at. And problably be the main focus if they know you can summon a greater daemon.I always make sure to have two squads that go offensive and then I can have more hanging back relaxing all cool shooting b-ball outside thier school.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I've been using a 10 man lesser daemon squad in my last couple games. In both it has been pivotal in giving me a win. In one it tar-pitted a tank hunting assault cannon ven dread (black templar) and stopped it from owning my defilers. In the other it bailed my noise marines out of CC with a deathwing squad. I need to get another box so i can have 2 8 man squads, but i certainly like the things coupled with noise marines. They give me the extra bodies i need, and for cheap.

[Mutt-Man!]

Greater daemon's cost + champion with powerfist is 55 points (+8 points for a PM) and really not worth sacrificing a TS Sorcerer for. You get somewhat better stats overall then a daemon prince and it can even beat around with the greater daemons of the daemon codex to a degree. Yet still be cheaper then they are even after eating a champ.

[Draeden]

It's a little expensive but I have played a 2500pt game where I used 4 Greater Daemons. I was attempting to summon them off a squad of Terminator Champions. Quite expensive but I was wanting to deepstrike the terminators then summon greater daemons. It was a bit of a hit and miss but overall I'd say it's great. Even if it summons on the back line, so long as it isn't late in the game, they tend to be able to chug through to the enemy and take out a number of them before it goes down. I remember mine needing concentrated fire from Obliterators and Fire Frenzy Chaos Dreds to take one down....

 

Was it apoc? Cause you can only take 1 in normal games.

 

Heh... whoops, never saw that before. There goes my idea of a Daemonzilla C:SM army list. Still would be crazy for Apoc. An entire army built out of Terminator Champions, Icon of Tzeentch for some extra survivability. Then turn 2... an entire army of Greater Daemons comes sweeping in.... imagine the blood splatter.

[minigun762]

Greater daemon's cost + champion with powerfist is 55 points (+8 points for a PM) and really not worth sacrificing a TS Sorcerer for. You get somewhat better stats overall then a daemon prince and it can even beat around with the greater daemons of the daemon codex to a degree. Yet still be cheaper then they are even after eating a champ.

 

Agreed but if you're using up a naked Champion from a CSM squad, its only 30 points, which is much more reasonable in my book.

 

There has been talk of how its still useful to take a Power Weapon/Fist Champion for our rapid fire squads, but this way you're getting some very solid assault help and the squad gets to stay back and shooting.

 

I agree that you'd need atleast 2 of these squads in your army to make it worth while. Even that seems like a minimum, because otherwise you're either popping a Power Fist Champion or you're killing off your Greater Daemon.

 

As for the rapid fire squad being in a Rhino, I think of that as the safer way to play if there is alot of ordnance flying around. Stay in the Rhino until it gets popped. If there isn't anything scary in the area, jumping out and using the whole squad is better, I'll agree.

 

Drudge: Fluffwise that sounds like a cool, unique squad. Gotta do some converting to really make them stand out. For my money, I always imagine Slaaneshi Marines as more mutated then others, so I'd think about some of the Possessed bits. Let us know how it works for you.

[incinerator950]

I'm planning on using my GD from a bare champ out of a Chosen squad.

 

Also note, 1 GD that doesn't take up a force slot, so you could take 2 Demon Princes for lulz.

[minigun762]

So would a Greater Daemon be worth the points you have to spend on 2-3 naked Champions throughout your army?

In the same way you take Power Fists as a protection against MCs, Walkers and ICs, could a Greater Daemon do the same thing for multiple squads?

[incinerator950]

I don't do math Hammer, depending on your army you'll already have 2-3 upgrade champs and maby 1-3 bare champs.

 

I've got 1 bare and 2 upgraded in my army to use.

[40kChrista]

i think the greater demon, and lesser demons are great units over all. for reasons Drudge pointed out tar-pits and extra bodies

to having a literal monster eat a squad... the only gripe i have about the Greater Demon is it's I-4 value, would bumping it up to

5 really have been THAT game breaking?

 

i think that a Greater Demon could really help an army... but since it possesses a champ or indy. char do you

want to take naked champs relying on the GD to pop IC's, Walkers and MC's? and not having PF's in the rest of

your army when and if your GD gets popped? and it should 'cause if your opponent ignores it, it can cause major

headaches for her/him.

 

maybe you should proxy one for a few games, that way you can get the feel for using it without having to

commit to the model... unless of course your really itching t make one anyway!!

 

Grim

[incinerator950]

GD is a good unit, it's not as mobile as a Demon prince with Wings, but if a GD took out 2 Lash Princes in combat, then that says something.

 

Besides your troop choices, what about Havocs or Chosen instead? Just take 5 special weapons, your Icon if you really want one so badly, and then a sacrificial champ and sneak them in.

[minigun762]

i think that a Greater Demon could really help an army... but since it possesses a champ or indy. char do you

want to take naked champs relying on the GD to pop IC's, Walkers and MC's? and not having PF's in the rest of

your army when and if your GD gets popped? and it should 'cause if your opponent ignores it, it can cause major

headaches for her/him.

 

I mentioned at the start that it would only be used in squads that don't rely completely on that Power Fist, like Plasmagun squads.

For me, its a waste to pop a Power Fist Champion but a naked Champion from a squad that relies on rapid firing anyway? Thats another issue.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

There are other factors about GDs that people arn't taking into account. Sometimes they are worth summoning even on a really expensive champ.

 

I run noise marines as my troops. My champs have power weapons and doomsirens, meaning they cost 65 points each. Why would i ever want to summon a greater daemon onto such an expensive champion? Tons of reasons actually.

 

Consider these scenarios:

 

- My noise marine squad gets stuck in CC with a dread. They have zero options to kill these things. Kraks cannot reliably kill them. Even if i had a powerfist, thats only about a 10% chance each turn of killing the thing. The squad is effectively out of the game. So, summon my greater daemon onto that champ and let it eat the dreadnought. The remains of the squad are then free. Sure i lost the champ, but it was a matter of stay tarpitted with a dread the whole game or lose the champ and atleast free the squad up to go score and objective or dakka the enemy with sonic blasters (or go tarpit another dread).

 

- My squad is about to die. Regardless of what the squad is, sometimes you are in an assault and you know that next turn the squad is dead. May as well greater daemon the champ!

 

- No more use for the champ. As mentioned, my noise marines cannot kill armor for beans. So what happens when i've mowed down most of the enemies infantry in the area but he still has a bunch of tanks left nearby? I don't have time to re-deploy this infantry killing squad to wherever there is more infantry, so may as well sac the champ for the GD and let it rip the tank up while i go score their objective with the rest of the squad.

 

 

There's some food for thought. Its not always about points.

[40kChrista]

i don't think it's all about points either, i have no problem sacrificing the PF champ... sure i loose the power fist but i gain a monstrous creature.

 

to me, the trade off is pretty good.

 

Grim

[the jeske]

No more use for the champ. As mentioned, my noise marines cannot kill armor for beans. So what happens when i've mowed down most of the enemies infantry in the area but he still has a bunch of tanks left nearby? I don't have time to re-deploy this infantry killing squad to wherever there is more infantry, so may as well sac the champ for the GD and let it rip the tank up while i go score their objective with the rest of the squad.

as most tanks move 12" or more and a GD moves 6" per turn I would really like to see him catch a tank or even a trasnport. someone would actually have to leave it withing 12" of the GD and not move it for a turn .

 

- My squad is about to die. Regardless of what the squad is, sometimes you are in an assault and you know that next turn the squad is dead. May as well greater daemon the champ!

if something is killing an 8 man NM [or 10 csm/zerkers or 7 pms] unit in two phases of hth [one turn] the its probablly not a very good idea to send them more units to be killed . specially as the GD is not the most resilient of MC out there.

- My noise marine squad gets stuck in CC with a dread. They have zero options to kill these things. Kraks cannot reliably kill them. Even if i had a powerfist, thats only about a 10% chance each turn of killing the thing. The squad is effectively out of the game. So, summon my greater daemon onto that champ and let it eat the dreadnought. The remains of the squad are then free. Sure i lost the champ, but it was a matter of stay tarpitted with a dread the whole game or lose the champ and atleast free the squad up to go score and objective or dakka the enemy with sonic blasters (or go tarpit another dread).

yes thats true NM builds do have some problems with opening up transports . thats why termicid and oblits are even more essenssial then in normal chaos armies. a dread if it deep strikes wont charge[and should eat melta] a dread that is footslogging should never catch a NM unit as the speed of both is the same and even1 , if a dread gets real close they can always run. but the most important thing is a shoty NM army wont find points for buying 4 naked champs and a GD [because this either means no lash or no termicid] and a hth build [that for me doesnt work] again does better with buying an extra prince and not having their champs poped.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

as most tanks move 12" or more and a GD moves 6" per turn I would really like to see him catch a tank or even a trasnport. someone would actually have to leave it withing 12" of the GD and not move it for a turn .

 

6 inch move, 6 inch charge = 12 inches. And it can charge the turn it arrives. And the tank may not always have the option to move away, or moving away may get it out of cover or some such. Yes it could get kited. But there are plenty of common scenarios where it wouldn't be kited.

 

if something is killing an 8 man NM [or 10 csm/zerkers or 7 pms] unit in two phases of hth [one turn] the its probablly not a very good idea to send them more units to be killed . specially as the GD is not the most resilient of MC out there.

 

Who said anything about 2 phases? And why not? It'd have to be some uber god unit to have gone through a CSM squad and not be severaly weakened.

 

yes thats true NM builds do have some problems with opening up transports . thats why termicid and oblits are even more essenssial then in normal chaos armies. a dread if it deep strikes wont charge[and should eat melta] a dread that is footslogging should never catch a NM unit as the speed of both is the same and even1 , if a dread gets real close they can always run. but the most important thing is a shoty NM army wont find points for buying 4 naked champs and a GD [because this either means no lash or no termicid] and a hth build [that for me doesnt work] again does better with buying an extra prince and not having their champs poped.

 

I don't really see what any of this has to do with the section you are quoting. And isn't the whole point of my post that you won't always use it on a naked champion? Why is that being brought up?

 

I'm not really sure what your point is with any of this jeske. My point was that there are scenarios where it wouldn't be a waste to bring your GD in onto even an expensive champion. I'm not claiming this makes the GD a good unit overall.

[incinerator950]

Should does not equal will, even though alot of people use the same builds not everyone plays the same, and alot of things never go according to plan.

[empchildrenbob]

you can have as many greater daemons as you want...as long as their champs to be sacrificed

[Drudge Dreadnought]

you can have as many greater daemons as you want...as long as their champs to be sacrificed

 

Page 102: 0-1 Summoned Greater Daemon. This means you can have none, or you can have 1. There is no option for more than one.

[minigun762]

Thinking on this again, how would be Soulgrinder look as an Undivided Greater Daemon?

Seems to be the appropriate size and everything.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Its a bit too large imo. Its similar size to forgeworld greater deamons, but those are Apoc scale. Regular greater daemons are the same size as Daemon Princes.