The 'New' Chaos rumour

[Reyner]

whos the star of the show huh?... now that is something ill hold onto for a while

 

Better be Abaddon as he is the Warmaster for christs sake

Haha, the forces of Chaos are now led by Kaldor Draigo!!!

[Kevlarshark]

Having just played a tournie as the only chaos player there, and one of 8 players (out of 30+) who didn't bring GK, BA or Wolves (one of 4 if you count IG).

 

I am slightly concerned that chaos will be the "new grey knights" when the codex hits and cries of "he can do what? Really?!!" will echo through

the tournament scene.

 

I know there is no nerf coming, 'cos whats left to nerf? Even our baddest of the bad like Abbadon, Deamon princes, Bezerkers, PMs and oblits are tame compared to the likes

of Mephiston, Dreadknights, Paladans, Sanguary Priests, Longfangs and :) Psybolts ....

 

So...

 

I want fluffy, but fair...If chaos becomes the new (insert cheezy list here) I will be very sad/filled with terrifying wrath.

[Dammeron]

Having just played a tournie as the only chaos player there, and one of 8 players (out of 30+) who didn't bring GK, BA or Wolves (one of 4 if you count IG).

 

I am slightly concerned that chaos will be the "new grey knights" when the codex hits and cries of "he can do what? Really?!!" will echo through

the tournament scene.

 

I know there is no nerf coming, 'cos whats left to nerf? Even our baddest of the bad like Abbadon, Deamon princes, Bezerkers, PMs and oblits are tame compared to the likes

of Mephiston, Dreadknights, Paladans, Sanguary Priests, Longfangs and :) Psybolts ....

 

So...

 

I want fluffy, but fair...If chaos becomes the new (insert cheezy list here) I will be very sad/filled with terrifying wrath.

 

Ditto. I want an army list that's characterful a la the Dark eldar army list; defined as much by its strengths as its weaknesses. In the case of Chaos, they should err on the side of tradition; armies that are quite small in terms of model count, but highly, highly elite.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I actually have to say that I don't like these new rumours. For example, the World Eaters seem to be screwed under the new rules, because they only get a single HS slot for their anti-tank. Secondly, the Night Lords also lose the 2 HS, and I'm assuming get given another FA slot in return. Lastly, they've apparently got the Red Angel as a special character, and Abaddon might not be the "star of the show", since the leak doesn't want to say who that is. Lastly, they mention Huron in the Legion rumours, when it makes no sense whatsoever to have him in there, as opposed to the Renegades book, since he's, you know, the epitome of the Renegade faction of Chaos.

[the jeske]

the sad part about chaos dex . is not the rules , but the fact that not only are we stuck with the chaos happy family[we suspected that] but that right now with the whole abadons is "preparing a war on cadia" there are no legions anymore . abadon is leader of everyone , legions dont fight in formations which they used for 10k years , but how abadon tells them too. The fact that he orders primarchs around , specialy the crazier ones like agron. why couldnt they make abadon a politic ?why no "so I heard fulgrim saying your chopier then you" and agron goes crazy , but where abadon wants him to go crazy . but no they suddenly make angron just another random DP that is ordered around [not asked , not bound by promise of sacriffice and a fight , but ordered].

 

So happy chaos family extrem edition , they realy could have called the dex BL and their friends[abadon the spiritual liege of all chaos csm , I almost expected that] . rules wise its not a nid dex and that means that when we compare it to the gav dex[abadon costs like draigo. draigo has awesome rules , while abadon sucks] it is only better.

[minigun762]

Fleshing out characters and having some unique rules is fine, but I've always favored the more basic units personally and so I hope we aren't forced into a position where the only viable army builds are centered around Characters X, Y or Z.

[Menkeroth]

As loyalists? It'd be great if not, agree. In the fluff purposes too. But GW likes this idea and actively promotes it. Want Raven Guard or Imperial Fists? without Schrike or Lysander it can't be done. Not good. :rolleyes: But who knows..?

[Hellios]

I actually have to say that I don't like these new rumours. For example, the World Eaters seem to be screwed under the new rules, because they only get a single HS slot for their anti-tank. Secondly, the Night Lords also lose the 2 HS, and I'm assuming get given another FA slot in return. Lastly, they've apparently got the Red Angel as a special character, and Abaddon might not be the "star of the show", since the leak doesn't want to say who that is. Lastly, they mention Huron in the Legion rumours, when it makes no sense whatsoever to have him in there, as opposed to the Renegades book, since he's, you know, the epitome of the Renegade faction of Chaos.

 

 

Except if they want to focus on Huron leading his Red Corsairs (Space marine pirates) then having him in the Legions/Chaos Space marine book might make sense...

 

Why? Some of his posts suggest that the Renegades book isn't Renegade marines but Renegades in general and that the focus isn't marines with mutants, traitor guard and daemons but rather the focus in on the humans/mutants with a splash of marines. So the question is will renegades allow you to make a decent army of just marines... In which case it might suit Huron... or will you require gribble to be competitive or even make a legal army. Oh and I know Huron has gribble but I bet he normally leads his space marines...

 

So I would say it depends on the nature of the renegades list and on how they wish to portray Huron. He and many of his men are not legionaries (I say many because although I'm not totally up to date with him I'm sure he has swallowed other Chaos war bands.) but he probably controls one of the biggest War bands. Again when I say War bands I don't mean Legion but the groups the legions are broken down into (some more than others...), for example In Soul Hunter it seems that the Exalted has maybe less than 50 marines... Huron I'm certain has far more than that.

[A D-B]

Given the types of lore issues Chaos Marines have had in the past (with the misunderstandings often cited even here), I'll be pretty stunned if they separated a Legion and Renegade system into two codices. There's really no need, and it reinforces an artificial divide that exists more in gamers' heads than in the lore. Yeah, there's a difference between a Chaos Marine who's been in the Eye of Terror for thousands of years and one who's freshly turned his back on the Imperium, but it's rarely as simple as "The Legions don't exist anymore / The Legions are unified and whole" or "There's a massive difference between a Legionnaire and a Renegade." There's really not always that huge a difference, on the continuum of Chaos. It's a very gamerish perception, ignoring so, so, so much of the nuance and possibilities at play.

 

Of course, that's because a lot of the lore hasn't been explained all that well, and it's a complicated concept.

 

I don't know for sure, either way. I know nothing about the next codex. I'd just find it incredibly surprising, given the way Chaos Marines are discussed in various meetings where they're mentioned. They just don't seem to work that way.

 

I'm not going to go into huge detail about it; me, Legatus and countless others among us have all discussed Legion/Renegade perception to death, and there are still people throwing meaningless memes like "happy super Chaos friends" or whatever around. There's never a solution. People aren't always interested in seeing the truth - they just want to validate their opinions at the cost of acknowledging others. Hopefully, the next codex will explain Chaos Marines perfectly well, rather than all of us throwing up conflicting perceptions based on whatever edition and rule set over the past 25 years matches and/or forms our ideas.

[Zincite]

Shut up, writer-dude. You're spoiling our dreams.

 

Would be interesting, however, if you were right, since that would indicate that like 90% of rumours are being made on a baseless foundation.

[Warsmith Aznable]

Self moderated for being off topic, I guess.

[the jeske]

and there are still people throwing meaningless memes like "happy super Chaos friends" or whatever around.

how is it meaningless when one of the most important people in GW specialy as fluff goes tells you that the dex is awesome becase you can have a tzeench lord leading a warband khorn zerkers ? how is that not happy chaos family ? The gods always hated each other , dudes like hours or abadon were uber champions of chaos because they were able to force different cult to work with each other . If the same can be done by a warband lord of any size and shape , then how are they special ? the whole BL theme was that they were multi marked and multi worshiping [but not of pantheons , but single gods] something unheared of in other legions where worship of deities other then the main cult was forcing the dudes in to semi exile [like the khorn worshipers huron had] or was not aproved [where WB were the most extrem example of] . having different worshipers in a single force is like having an army made out of ortodox , catholics and protestans end of XVI and expecting them to work with each other .

 

not to mention the logistic problems . how does "lord" of a under 100 people warband get worshipers of different gods , if its inside then how did it start . If it is outside then how did the even smaller cult group surive on its own , when in the eye whole renegade chapeters are getting wiped out .

 

 

People aren't always interested in seeing the truth - they just want to validate their opinions at the cost of acknowledging others.

because warbands with an informal structure and not difference between a legion and a renegade[even if there is tons of examples of legioners "disliking" post heresy memeber of their own legion] , runing around the eye under 100 man strong , getting ammo fuel slaved from only the chaos gods know from where , makes more sense then legions having structure , having chain of command , still being organisations which worked like durning the legion war . Of course . But I understand that with structure being told what you have to do and what you cant do , the legions are less interesting then wild bands of power armored pirates/scavengers . Its also harder to write 300+pages of stuff about them when all a legion dude does is being point and clicked by his lord/god and kil , kill and kill some more. happens to the loyalists too . they have structure build in to their fluff and still all their "heros" are wild guns and dudes going against the rules [when the whole schtick of loyalist is that they do stuff according with the codex] .

[Legatus]

how is it meaningless when one of the most important people in GW specialy as fluff goes tells you that the dex is awesome becase you can have a tzeench lord leading a warband khorn zerkers ? how is that not happy chaos family ? The gods always hated each other

And the gods have always cooperated in order to stick it to the Imperium. Or the Eldar. Or whatever. Why do you insist to pretend that isn't the fluff since Rogue Trader times? You were even able to use Slaanesh units and Khorne units in the same army in the 3.5 Codex. You just weren't able to use Slaanesh units if the Lord had the Mark of Khorne. That has now been lifted, but that is just a minor point. You don't want your Slaanesh warband to include any Khorne units? Then don't take them. You want your Warsmith with the Mark of Slaanesh to still employ some hired World Eater Berserkers? You can do that too. This was possible in the 2nd Edition Codex, it was possible in the 3rd Edition Codex, and it is now possible in the 4th Edition Codex.

(Not that the 3.5 Codex didn't explicitely permit to play a mixed warband. That is suggested in it's introduction, after all. It just had this novel rule where you could no longer use certain cult choices if your army commander had a certain mark.)

 

What you have to realize is that the "pure Legion" armies of the 3.5 Codex are the exception. A novel concept, introduced by the Index Astartes series. The 2nd, 3rd, and now 4th Edition Codices were all about the mixed Chaos warband forces. The 3.5 system of pure Legion forces was the one that was not like the others. The Index astartes series brought up the concept of only playing Chaos Marines from one single Legion, since those were long and detailed articles dealing with one of the original Legions in particular. The 3.5 Codex ran with it. But it still explained in its introduction that players could also play a mixed warband.

 

2nd Edition --> mixed warbands

 

3rd Edition --> mixed warbands

 

3.5 Codex --> "you can either play a single Legion, for which we will also provide rules this time, or you can play a mixed warband"

 

4th Edition --> mixed warbands

 

You were allowed to only play a single Legion in 2nd and 3rd Edition. And you are still allowed to only play a single Legion in 4th Edition. It's your choice. The Codex just wont give you free Champions or additional heavy support slots for your choice.

[grimz]

Um.. who/what is the red angel?

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Um.. who/what is the red angel?

I have a sneaking suspicion it's Angron, because that's what he's been refered to in the HH series, however if that happens people will either cry OP or UP, and I sincerely hope that's not GW's intention.

 

I would be greatly amused, however, if it were a twised reflection of Sanguinor... :huh: Undoubtably, it's some Khorne unit.

[KaosRaptor]

Um.. who/what is the red angel?

I have a sneaking suspicion it's Angron, because that's what he's been refered to in the HH series, however if that happens people will either cry OP or UP, and I sincerely hope that's not GW's intention.

 

I would be greatly amused, however, if it were a twised reflection of Sanguinor... :huh: Undoubtably, it's some Khorne unit.

 

Aye, I had heard it's either Angron (which would be awesome, by the way...suck it Draigo!) or this fellow from Collected Visions: The Red Angel

Presumably he's a Daemon Host. Must be quite powerful if he was at that gathering of lords, surely?

[Lord_Caerolion]

No, the Red Angel is a Daemonhost (I assume) seen in a single artwork in the Horus Heresy Collected Visions book. All we know is that he has cracked Blood Angel armour, and that he has light shining from his eyes and mouth. Other than that... Nothing at all, really. As I've said elsewhere, I really, really hope he isn't in it, because it means that if "bit-part-character-present-in-a-single-artwork #374" is in there, we'll presumably see every other HH character in there as well. I seem to be one of the rare few who hate that, because I hate the fact that out of Legions of tens of thousands, and in 10,000 years, we're still seeing the same characters time and again, apparently.

Yes, I know the Horus Heresy novels were good, but seriously people, let's allow for some new blood.

 

Also, I'd be incredibly happy if all these rumours turn out to be entirely false.

[grimz]

Hmm interesting, about the daemonhost, in the fluff they seem crazy powerful.. But rules wise.. Not so much.

 

The "dual command" from alpha legion sounds interesting I'm wondering if that, was a reference to a game play mechanic..

[Captain Semper]

No, the Red Angel is a Daemonhost (I assume) seen in a single artwork in the Horus Heresy Collected Visions book. All we know is that he has cracked Blood Angel armour, and that he has light shining from his eyes and mouth. Other than that... Nothing at all, really. As I've said elsewhere, I really, really hope he isn't in it, because it means that if "bit-part-character-present-in-a-single-artwork #374" is in there, we'll presumably see every other HH character in there as well. I seem to be one of the rare few who hate that, because I hate the fact that out of Legions of tens of thousands, and in 10,000 years, we're still seeing the same characters time and again, apparently.

Yes, I know the Horus Heresy novels were good, but seriously people, let's allow for some new blood.

 

Also, I'd be incredibly happy if all these rumours turn out to be entirely false.

 

Correct. The Red Angel is the Deamonhost depicted in the Visions of Heresy and nothing is known about it. Other than he wears BA livery. And therefore you can hardly claim he(?) is same character time & again... Having said that, a Deamon character is hardly an interesting addition in a Chaos SM codex. It could be interesting to mention it in the text as to tell you the truth the minute I laid eyes on it I wanted to know more! Not as a special character in a future Chaos SM codex but as a story in said codex.

 

I personally would like to see a Codex Chaos Legions as it is rumored to be the case. Can't wait!

[Lord_Caerolion]

I was more referring to Little Horus being a special character in that part. Yeah, I know I'm in the minority, but I've started disliking the Mournival now, mostly because I've seen enough of people gushing over every time Loken is mentioned, or the other two. Abaddon has progressed to become far more than he ever was, becoming the face of the Legions. Little Horus though... he's a guilt-wracked member of a dead organisation that to our knowledge hasn't done all that much since the Heresy.

 

To put it another way, I'd rather see some new blood in the special character sections, rather than getting "Hey, this guy was in a Horus Heresy novel! Isn't that awesome! That automatically makes him cool, so go buy the model!" over and over. Yes, the Horus Heresy novel series is damn successful, but we've already got to put up with the authors trying to tie pretty much everything in 40k back to the Heresy, without having the games designers playing along, and adding every character from a single artwork as a special character. What's next, half the Loyalist characters from the artworks appearing as Venerable Dreadnought special characters in the next Space Marine codex?

[A D-B]

I was more referring to Little Horus being a special character in that part. Yeah, I know I'm in the minority, but I've started disliking the Mournival now, mostly because I've seen enough of people gushing over every time Loken is mentioned, or the other two. Abaddon has progressed to become far more than he ever was, becoming the face of the Legions. Little Horus though... he's a guilt-wracked member of a dead organisation that to our knowledge hasn't done all that much since the Heresy.

 

To put it another way, I'd rather see some new blood in the special character sections, rather than getting "Hey, this guy was in a Horus Heresy novel! Isn't that awesome! That automatically makes him cool, so go buy the model!" over and over. Yes, the Horus Heresy novel series is damn successful, but we've already got to put up with the authors trying to tie pretty much everything in 40k back to the Heresy, without having the games designers playing along, and adding every character from a single artwork as a special character. What's next, half the Loyalist characters from the artworks appearing as Venerable Dreadnought special characters in the next Space Marine codex?

 

For the record, the Red Angel showing up would surprise me just as much as the separated Renegade/Legion codices, since he's showing up in the Heresy in ways even we've not fully decided yet (we only recently decided who he was), and the IP department are fully aware of it, having been at the meetings.

 

Seriously, I know it's cool to have rumours, but a lot of these reek of nonsense - especially the twin codex one, and the Red Angel.

[Brother Nihm]

I was more referring to Little Horus being a special character in that part. Yeah, I know I'm in the minority, but I've started disliking the Mournival now, mostly because I've seen enough of people gushing over every time Loken is mentioned, or the other two. Abaddon has progressed to become far more than he ever was, becoming the face of the Legions. Little Horus though... he's a guilt-wracked member of a dead organisation that to our knowledge hasn't done all that much since the Heresy.

 

To put it another way, I'd rather see some new blood in the special character sections, rather than getting "Hey, this guy was in a Horus Heresy novel! Isn't that awesome! That automatically makes him cool, so go buy the model!" over and over. Yes, the Horus Heresy novel series is damn successful, but we've already got to put up with the authors trying to tie pretty much everything in 40k back to the Heresy, without having the games designers playing along, and adding every character from a single artwork as a special character. What's next, half the Loyalist characters from the artworks appearing as Venerable Dreadnought special characters in the next Space Marine codex?

 

Amen to that.

[TheDarkApostle]

Alot of these "rumors" as of today to me is nothing more than fancy wish-lists worded like they were rumors. Maybe some people are just wishlisting / making things up and then wording it like a rumor for the kicks of it or someone heard or misheard someone talking about their personal wishlist and thought it was someone saying facts.

 

Personally I prefer my rumors with a bit more meat on the legs, as in as 70-80% chance of actually being true unlike most of the stuff right now that feels even less than 30.

 

TDA

[Captain Semper]

Hahahaha!!! Not venerable dreads, more like Contemptors!!! :rolleyes:

 

I see your point. However you can actually develop these characters through the Codex. Surely Little Horus could have alo advanced his personality in 10,000 years. Or not, I don't know... It all boils down to execution. However a defining characteristic of the Chaos legions is the fact that they are the same exact marines since the days of the Heresy (for the most part). So getting characters from that era and fast-forward them in 40k supports this sense of continuity - something lost to the loyal Marines. Frankly all the Legion related characters in the Codices up to now are around since the Heresy - and all of them were significant even back then. Maybe you're arguing that some previously unheard leutenants might have made a name of themselves by now - so let's see more of that... but in the end of the day wouldn't you like to see how the leaders of the Heresy armies developed?

 

But yeah, Typhus did not exist before he was mentioned in the Codex nor was the Doomrider. So it all boils down to execution on the GW behalf. And I think they generally move to the right direction...

[Lungboy]

I was more referring to Little Horus being a special character in that part. Yeah, I know I'm in the minority, but I've started disliking the Mournival now, mostly because I've seen enough of people gushing over every time Loken is mentioned, or the other two. Abaddon has progressed to become far more than he ever was, becoming the face of the Legions. Little Horus though... he's a guilt-wracked member of a dead organisation that to our knowledge hasn't done all that much since the Heresy.

 

To put it another way, I'd rather see some new blood in the special character sections, rather than getting "Hey, this guy was in a Horus Heresy novel! Isn't that awesome! That automatically makes him cool, so go buy the model!" over and over. Yes, the Horus Heresy novel series is damn successful, but we've already got to put up with the authors trying to tie pretty much everything in 40k back to the Heresy, without having the games designers playing along, and adding every character from a single artwork as a special character. What's next, half the Loyalist characters from the artworks appearing as Venerable Dreadnought special characters in the next Space Marine codex?

 

For the record, the Red Angel showing up would surprise me just as much as the separated Renegade/Legion codices, since he's showing up in the Heresy in ways even we've not fully decided yet (we only recently decided who he was), and the IP department are fully aware of it, having been at the meetings.

 

Seriously, I know it's cool to have rumours, but a lot of these reek of nonsense - especially the twin codex one, and the Red Angel.

 

Thanks very much for that, A D-B. A little sanity is needed with all these crazy rumours flying around at the moment.