The Missing legions, Update following the Horus Heresy novels Options

[Pacific81]

This topic has come up many many times before, but following the release of the Horus Heresy novels I feel that some kind of update is in order!

First of all, amongst many others, here are a links to a couple of the discussions which have taken place before (going back over many years in some cases)

Missing legions topic 1

Missing legions topic 2

My goal here is not to repeat what has been written before, or just to add conjecture, but instead make some logical deducements about what we now know:

- There is no mention of any previously unknown legions in any of the 5 Herest titles released so far.
- When the legions are listed in full (most recently in 'Fulgrim') only the known legions are mentioned.

We can therefore assume that the expunged legions were not present in the events leading up to the Heresy. Going from the previous threads on the topic, one of the more popular opinions was that the Legions were expunged (in a similar vein to that of the Roman legions) following their destruction. No record of them or their failure can remain. We must therefore reason that this must have occured some time before (or perhaps even during) the events of the great crusade.

In my own mind, I reasoned that the release of the HH books was probably the most likely to reveal at least something about the legions. I don't believe that the staff writers of GW have simply forgotten about them, as why else would they continue to tease us by offering tantalisingly smudged out names in the recently released Dark Angel codex?

Does anyone have anything to contribute to this following the release of the Heresy novels? I do have some theories of my own, but ill leave them for the moment until everyone has had a chance to introduce their own ideas!

On your marks!

Get set!

Theorise!

[Master Incarias]

Actually, there is mention of the missing Legions. In False Gods, when Horus is in his little illusion, he looks into at least one tank containing a brother of his, and thinks about the potential lost. It's not very clear, and it's part of an illusion, but I think the knowledge of the missing Primarch(s) is Horus' own. Just thought I should mention it...

[Bigger-than-Jesu...]

Here's an idea:

some sources(can't recall any to quote, but the CSM 'dex could be 1) say that fully half the legions turned to chaos during the Heresy.

Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh, and Tzeentch each got a legion that exclusively worships them.

What f the tenth legion worshipped Malal and hadn't been introduced by GW by the time the man who invented Malal left them, but they were planning to introduce both legions that are 'missing'.They couldn't really introduce that legion then in the form they had written.

They then didn't introduce the other legion for balance between the loyalists and chaos.

All we have to do is wait, and if GW find out they do in fact own the rights to Malal(As I so hope and believe that they do) then the remaining legions will get revealed(if I am in fact, right)

This is all a random idea I had after eating too much chocolate yesterday, so it probably fails so miserably it's not funny

This post has been edited by Bigger-than-Jesus: Jul 8 2007, 04:47 PM

[DrD]

Two words: Night Haunter. I really tore through the first three Heresy novels and will do so with the other two as soon as I find the time. The problem with reading tree books in quick succession is that I am not sure where I saw the quote, but I think it was in False Gods. Horus is talking to someone about getting the Primarchs in line and remarks on how strange his brother Primarch Night Haunter can be. Checking the list of legions and Primarchs in the Codex you will find that Night Haunter is not there, so he must be from one of the missing Legions.

Does anyone else remember reading that?

[Apocalyp$e]

Night Haunter is the primarch who owns the night lords

[DrD]

Night Haunter is the primarch who owns the night lords

Yep your right.
Just checked it again in CD: SM (p8) and CD: DA (p73). The Night Lords Primarch is Konrad Curze, what it does not say is that he was later known as Night Haunter.
Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_Lords

This post has been edited by DrD: Jul 8 2007, 05:34 PM

[morcus]

He's refered to as night haunter.

[Beef]

this is pointless. They 2 missing legions and primarchs are never mentioned. Hell it could be chuck norris for all we know. there is no logical answers to this debate

[Pacific81]

Please Mr. Beef, I've read topics on this forum which ask whether or not the emporer was left or right handed, and whether or not marines wear any form of underwear!

I'll go and dredge one of those up if you really want me to

Thanks a lot for that Master Incarias, that had totally slipped my mind! If anything, that passage might well indicate that some more information might be forthcoming?

I'll have a re-read through that section tonight and see if there are any sly hints contained within it..

[Iron Father Rik]

Here's an idea:

some sources (can't recall any to quote, but the CSM 'dex could be 1) say that fully half the legions turned to chaos during the Heresy.

Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh, and Tzeentch each got a legion that exclusively worships them.

What if the tenth legion worshipped Malal and hadn't been introduced by GW by the time the man who invented Malal left them, but they were planning to introduce both legions that are 'missing'.They couldn't really introduce that legion then in the form they had written.

Well first of all the Tenth Legion is the Iron Hands I'll have you know, and we... I mean they, certainly did not turn heretic!

It was the 2nd and the 11th Legions that are expunged from all records, as can be seen in the table on page 8 of Codex: Space Marines.
- As Pacific81 said that GW are constantly teasing us by adding information such as this table in Codex: Dark Angels, well in fact it is the same as in C:SM, and the same as in the v.3 codex. They have not given us any new info, and nothing extra is known apart from the fact that two legions remain unknown.

Also, to refer back to the quote above, fully half the known legions turned traitor. That's 10 of the 20 known legions. Each Chaos god got one legion, leaving 6 legions of undivided. Yes if the rumoured god "Malal" exists (and imo that's a big "if") then perhaps one of the missing legions turned to it, but perhaps none of them did - there were 6 full legions after all that remained undivided.


Now for my two cents on the subject matter:

My theory is that there was perhaps a problem in the creation of either the legions, or even their Primarchs, and so these legion's creations were aborted. Most likely it'd be the actual legion and not the Primarch, or the Emperor wouldn't have even bothered to count them as the 2nd and 11th Legions.
Either that or the Primarchs could not be found/were found dead/or refused to join the Emperor and were slain by him (this final one is my prefered theory - he did often actually fight with his Primarchs when he discovered them). The legions that had been created in their images were disbanded, perhaps shuffled into the existing legions (again my personal favoured theory), or perhaps terminated.

This post has been edited by Iron Father Rik: Jul 8 2007, 08:17 PM

[Firebird]

It's more likely that the other 2 Legions never actually existed. The 2 other Primarchs were probably never found at all.

[Pacific81]

Yes, but we know that the legions must have existed, otherwise there would have just been 18 legions and no gaps in the manifest!

Iron Father Rik, I would tend to agree with that opinion. While I think its highly unlikely that the marines were 'terminated', there is the possibility that their primarch was never found, and so the marines from those legions were amalgamated into existing legions. That Horus showed sadness for 'potential that was never fulfilled' indicates to me that perhaps those primarchs were never found. That they were never in a position to lead their legion.

However, this seems very very unlikely to me as the marines are extremely loyal to their legions and their colours. We can see from a lot of the existing fluff that the marines are remarkably competitive with each other, and Im not sure if they would exhibit enough good will to take in some 'homeless marines' if you will.

So, if this is the case, where does that leave us? Perhaps back with one of the original arguments, that the legion was destroyed, and this must have happened some point before the Heresy. The problem with this theory is, how exactly do you go about completely destroying a chapter, let alone a legion? Even the Crimson fists, who were reduced to only a handful of marines, are still able to return to something like fighting strength?

This leaves us with only one possibility - that there was some manifest reason that the marines were unable to reproduce, either through some fundamental flaw in their geneseed, or else perhaps a result of the influence of chaos.

Hmmm..

[Chaplain Dak]

I have heard that certain word bearers have been known to worship "malal" (but dont they worship all in some sense?)
There is a rogue trader dating from the start of 40k that shows ALL legions even the missing ones! rogue trader 14 i have been told.

My opinion:
It is highly doubfull that the "missing" legions ever will be unveiled.
Why: 1/ how many people are involved in making up the 40k SM fluff? too many!
2/ if they wanted the "missing" legions to be known they would have made them public 20 years ago.
3/ an idea why there to have missing legions: to help you make up your own chapter ( to create a blood raven kind of feeling)

[Iron Father Rik]

Hmm another thought I had, though this is wild and unfounded, is that.... well has anyone noticed how the Grey Knights are not marked there?

I realise that they could well be a later founding, and if so I apologise for this, but from my (okay I admit comparatively little) knowledge of the GK, were they not rumoured to be created from the Emperor's own gene-seed? Therefore I pose the theory to be torn apart that the GK, or some early version of them, are one of the missing chapters.

The Emperor himself was a form of Primarch Marine, so would he not have had his own legion too?

[Brother Pariah]

I have seen, in more than one source, statements that the Emperor found all of the Primarchs. I haven't seen anything to indicate that there were fewer than twenty of them, either.

Anyway, everyone knows that the mission legions are the Valedictors and the Iron Hearts. I don't know what all the fuss is about.

This post has been edited by Brother Pariah: Jul 8 2007, 09:03 PM

[Iron Father Rik]

How do you know this?

[Pacific81]

I have heard that certain word bearers have been known to worship "malal" (but dont they worship all in some sense?)
There is a rogue trader dating from the start of 40k that shows ALL legions even the missing ones! rogue trader 14 i have been told.

My opinion:
It is highly doubfull that the "missing" legions ever will be unveiled.
Why: 1/ how many people are involved in making up the 40k SM fluff? too many!
2/ if they wanted the "missing" legions to be known they would have made them public 20 years ago.
3/ an idea why there to have missing legions: to help you make up your own chapter ( to create a blood raven kind of feeling)

Chaplain Dak, what is Rogue Trader 14? Do you mean the original RT rulebook for 40k or an issue of WD? There are some other chapters in the Marine chapter colour line-up in the RT rulebook, although the concept of 20 legions had not been introduced at that time (that had to wait a few years for the '40K: compendium' I believe).

The Grey Knights are a Chapter, not a legion, and are therefore a result of the 2nd founding.

[Brother Pariah]

The Valedictors fought in the Horus Heresy, according to their fluff in White Dwarf 126. Therefor they must be of the First Founding.

The Iron Hearts had a Primarch named Rubineck according to some official short story or other.

I suppose it's possible that the Iron Hearts are a later founding chapter of the Valedictors, and that both shared Primarch Rubineck.

[Brother Barak]

Has anyone tried to un-smudge the words in the codex? I got 'Rainbow Warriors' out of one of them, but it may just be my fevered imagination running off without my permission

[Iron Father Rik]

The Grey Knights are a Chapter, not a legion, and are therefore a result of the 2nd founding.

Okay thanks. Are they, however, of the Emperor's gene-seed?

And can I also point out that the Dark Angels, White Scars, Space Wolves, Imperial Fists, Blood Angels, Iron Hands, Ultramarines, Salamanders and Raven Guard are also all chapters? Doesn't mean they weren't once legions.

[Brother Pariah]

The Grey Knights are a Chapter, not a legion, and are therefore a result of the 2nd founding.

Okay thanks. Are they, however, of the Emperor's gene-seed?

The Emperor doesn't have geneseed; he's not a Space Marine, but a human (albiet the most powerful psyker, like, ever).

And can I also point out that the Dark Angels, White Scars, Space Wolves, Imperial Fists, Blood Angels, Iron Hands, Ultramarines, Salamanders and Raven Guard are also all chapters? Doesn't mean they weren't once legions.

The Grey Knights were founded after the Heresy. Some sources say 2nd founding, some say 3rd founding, some say before the 2nd founding but after the 1st. I've never seen anything official that puts them as extant during the Heresy itself.

[Ladislao]

the custodes are his own legion..

[Iron Father Rik]

The Emperor doesn't have geneseed; he's not a Space Marine, but a human (albiet the most powerful psyker, like, ever).

Um... how the warp can he be the equal in strength and stature of any of the Primarchs then, as he is so often described? They were near godlike beings compared to a regular marine, who himself is a demi-godlike being!

[Gregor69]

The Grey Knights are a Chapter, not a legion, and are therefore a result of the 2nd founding.

Okay thanks. Are they, however, of the Emperor's gene-seed?

And can I also point out that the Dark Angels, White Scars, Space Wolves, Imperial Fists, Blood Angels, Iron Hands, Ultramarines, Salamanders and Raven Guard are also all chapters? Doesn't mean they weren't once legions.

There is a lot of speculation about the seed for the GK.

On the other point, while the afore mentioned "chapters"/"legions" existed throughout 2nd edition onwards as the primogenitor legions, there are several articals in WD listing all "known" chapters. Including who they are descended from, (if known). Also at least once in the series the whole 18 known legions are mentioned at some point or another.

I do believe that Horus himself would be the key to the two lost Legions. My theory is that something will be said about them in the later books.

It is well know that the only "living" loyalist from that era is Bjorn the fell handed of the Space Wolves, and AFAIK he ain't sayin diddley

[Tpatchers]

The primarchs were created from the Emperor. Thus they a similar, tho weaker. Horus was only stronger through warp energy, and even then after wrekin the emperor got blasted by super jizzzz.
This post is kind of silly, the reason GW left out the two legions it so people can make up there own.