Grey Knight Beginner

[Razmus]

2007-8-25 (number6): After receiving several PMs suggesting this topic get stickied, I've relented. Hopefully it will prove helpful enough to deserve its spot up here.

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I have the daemonhunter codex and I'm thoroughly intrigued by this codex. Can anyone please give me an insite as to how to make them effective? At the moment, I have none of the mini's in my inventory, but I'd like some direction before I start my purchases. Furthermore, the codex seems a little conveluded in the parts where it talks about having allies and being allies. Can someone clear that up as well.

 

Thanks for any insight.

 

Razmus

[number6]

Welcome to the DH! If you're looking for a challenge, you've come to the right place. At first blush, the army (built around Grey Knights) looks a lot like Space Marines of a different color. Don't be fooled! We don't play anything like the smurfs, and attempting to mimic their army lists and tactics will get you killed right quick.

 

Contrary to popular opinion, GKs are NOT the games best assaulters. We're better than average, for certain, and can beat up many, perhaps even most, infantry units. But the best close combatants? Not by a long shot. The new harlequins, a number of 'nid units, anything with furious charge, anything with a higher initiative, all these and more will often kick our butts in close combat. That's why we have stormbolters, which are very nearly the game's best standard troop firearm. GKs can lay down a ferocious amount of excellent anti-infantry firepower, all while on the march.

 

GKs are the game's best synthesis of assault capability and shooting prowess. We will always have some kind of advantage over our foes. Enemies that are superior assaulters can definitely be shot down by our stormbolters, and enemies that can rip us to shreds from afar are invariably cut down like so much grass once we close for the assault. The tactical challenge is to identify which approach to use against which enemy units and work to press the appropriate advantage.

 

Another indication that GKs were not meant to be purely assault troops is the fact that they have True Grit. That means that we gain no advantage for charging, yet neither do we suffer any adverse effects when being charged. Our close combat capability is level no matter what the situation. Tactically, this means that we are not required to commit to charging or closing to assault against most enemies. True Grit, combined with our stormbolters, mean that it is often wiser for us to stay mobile, shooting all the time, thinning down the enemy, and forcing them to come to us. This is especially true when facing superior assaulters. We should backpedal, "retreating" in any direction, until we are forced to receive the charge in cover, where, at the worst, we will fight simultaneously with those nasty close combatants. Ideally, they will have been thinned down by stormbolter fire so that we can quickly dispatch the remainder and continue on to the next unit.

 

You mentioned allies. Assuming you're employing GKs, that means you can't ally in space marines units. You don't want them anyway; GKs are the Emperor's Finest. Pure GK armies are perfectly viable armies, but extremely challenging to play. Your typical army should use dreadnoughts with TLLC/ML for your anti-armour, the vast majority of your force should be vanilla PAGKs -- no special weapons, as they cost you points yet rob your GKs of everything that distinguishes them from bog-standard space marines -- and a modest amount of GKTs in your HQ. I like psycannons there, and most of the time I footslog them for mobile, resilient dakka. (The shrouding combined with termie armour makes them virtually untargetable and indestructible.) An occasional use of a purgation squad with 4 psycannons, or Troops "mini-purgation" squads of 5-6 PAGKs and 2x psycannons can be useful, too, as static fire support squads (the shrouding works very well at extreme range), but special weapons in GK units should be the exceptions, not the rule. I don't favor incinerators at all, myself. Again, they reduce your GK down to a wildly expensive but unremarkable space marine, and incinerators are only good for pre-charge kicks. I'd rather have the additional stormbolter shots, high-strength melee attacks, and even additional GK models instead. That'll generally net you more kills (especially in the assault toward which you're heading were you to keep incinerators).

 

Generally, I would recommend avoiding the use of land raiders and land raider crusaders. They cost you entire squads of GKs, and we need all the models we can get. Certainly they have their partisans and their uses, but honestly, employing them makes playing an already difficult and challenging army even more difficult and challenging. I'd use them only if I was the treadiest of tread-heads. They change the nature of your game entirely, becoming the stars of the show and sidelining your troops to a secondary role.

 

Next to consider is the "pure DH" force, where you might employ several non-GK units. All of them have their place, depending on the style of list you want to employ. Inquisitors make absolutely deadly devastator-like fire support teams for a bargain price (psycannon on the inquisitor, 0-1 plasma cannon servitor, 2-3 heavy bolter servitors, 2 sages, mystic, maybe another sage or more mystics, maybe acolytes with bolters), and heavy fire support is something that GKs don't do particularly well. Don't bother with assaulty inquisitors, despite the attraction of doing so. Hereticus inquisitors do it so much better that if you want an assaulty iquisitor, ally one in from the witch hunters instead. Still, just know that the points you spend on assaulty squads that aren't GKs won't be nearly as effective for the points, especially when they're mere humans. But certain builds of hereticus inquisitors can be particularly nasty or just plain fun. (I like the maxed out power-weapon squad and the one tooled up for taking down monstrous creatures and walkers that uses acolytes with mancatchers, combat servitors, and an inquisitor with an eviscerator.)

 

If you're taking an inquisitor, you might as well take one or more assassins, too. The Eversor is a bargain and a deadly unit in his own right. Just point him in the right direction and watch the carnage. The Callidus is more like a scalpel than a sledgehammer, requires care to use, but is just plain cool, and is perfect for disrupting the enemy. I don't so much like the Vindicare, he's not reliable enough, depending too much on the opponent and lucky dice to be useful, but he does have his partisans. Just avoid the Culexus, however. He requires babysitters to be effective, and that actually hobbles most DH lists. Death Cult assassins should either be avoided entirely or bought in large groups to be effective. However, think of the PAGKs or GKTs that you can buy with those points! And GKs are far more resilient and at least as deadly, not to mention capable of shooting. I use DCAs occasionally, and they are particularly useful when coordinated with an Eversor or Callidus, but they don't bring much to the table for the DH save their infiltration and unreasonable fear they seem to cause opponents. Valuable tools, no doubt, and not to be overlooked, but don't think about DCAs until you've shored up your core infantry.

 

ISTs offer two things to the DH player that GKs cannot match: high-strength/low-AP weaponry and cheap tanks, with the Chimera capable of fulfilling the role of independent light tank. Always take advantage of these tools or you're wasting your investment into the ISTs. 2x meltas in a Rhino make great armour-hunters (and lessen your dependence on TLLC/ML dreads for anti-armour), and 2x plasma with a Chimera can set up solid firebases and take down heavy infantry and light armour. Don't bother with vet sgts. By the time you pay for them, you could've had another PAGK model; there ain't nothing an IST vet sgt can do that a vanilla PAGK can't do better.

 

Finally, there's the "DH + Allies" army. This is the style of army that is probably "the most competitive" because you can tailor your unit choices so fine that you can cover for any weakness and/or emphasize any strength. This army has more options than almost any other 40K army, so go nuts! Typically, inducted guard are used to supply the DH with cheap bodies and much-needed heavy weaponry, particularly in the form of lascannons, missile launchers, and plasma. Take two troops choices, and you can get sentinels and a leman russ, both very valuable. And pretty much anything you might consider allying in from the Witch Hunters will prove handy. Personally, I favor Seraphim kitted out with inferno pistols and a VSS bearing an eviscerator. These girls bring much-needed speed and armour-hunting capability -- not to mention the ability to take down heavy infantry -- all of which fill in weak spots in a primarily GK DH force. But it's hard to go wrong with any allied Sisters unit.

 

One final note about units: there's always the option to include an orbital strike. This can be a fun and valuable addition, but be warned: it's a psychological weapon only, not one that you should expect to kill much. But, if you can afford sacrificing the heavy support slot (a BIG "if"), I'd consider taking one. The melta torpedo is hands-down the preferred choice, as it is capable of threatening both enemy infantry (insta-kill MEQs!) and armour; even with a glancing, half-strength hit, the 2d6 armour penetration far exceeds anything the lance strike can do. Speaking of which, the lance strike is useful ony if you know you're facing a primarily infantry army with almost no armour. The lance just isn't threatening even to transports save through extreme luck. I'm not even going to mention the barrage strike, just don't bother. Orbital strikes are particularly fun in Cities of Death games, or where there's a river or road on the board, or perhaps a key bridge or two, and then watch your opponent scramble. Your typical static fire line army -- like most IG armies -- also hate it when you target the strike to a piece of terrain in their deployment zone. Again, don't expect much in the way of actual kills from the OS, but as a psychological weapon it's tough to beat.

 

I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that much of what I say about GKs here has been excellently distilled by Silent Requiem in his "Way of the Water Warrior" tactica, stickied at the top of this forum. His basic list-building approach is considerably different than what I outlined here, flat out encouraging the use of multiple land raiders, even in small 1000 pt lists! It's practically required reading for any serious DH player; there's much to glean from it no matter what list you use.

[Red Lost Soldier]

Wow that's an awesome summary number6! Should be stickied or something for future reference. There's so many questions that are asked often that are answered in there. Not much I can add to that.

 

Check out some sample lists and see if any grab you. There's a few ideas here. There's so many more too, run a basic search in here as many people post their WH/DH lists here as they sometimes get little comment in the actual army list forum. For example there is a very cool list here by mercenary.

 

There's another good article by valincius "The Art of War" here.

 

I'm pretty sure there used to be a nice colour coded summary about allying and induction. I can't find it anymore though.

 

Basically you have two types of parent DH: Those with GK and those without. This is because if you have a parent DH army with GK, you may not take SM, and you may not take both IG and SM allies in the same army. However you can take WH and another ally. So:

Those with GK can take stuff from Codex WH (see page 25, Codex WH), and/or also take IG (see page 30/31 Codex DH).

Those without GK can take stuff from Codex WH (see page 25, Codex WH), and/or also take IG (see page 30/31 Codex DH). However they can use SM allies instead of IG (see page 30/31 Codex DH).

One last thing is that with a SM parent list, you can ally in both WH (see page 25, Codex WH) and DH including GK (see page 30/31 Codex DH). This is the only way to get GK on the field with SM.

 

Lastly, I'll make a short mention of radical army lists. This will prevent you from taking any GK at all (but you can still take SM), but is a very interesting side bit of the Inquisition. This is the kind of army I'm building up at the moment, and my list is here.

[Aidoneus]

Wow, after the excellent summary from Number6 and the multitudinous links from RLS, there isn't much left to say. I guess I'll just tell you my own, personal thoughts on DH army building, and you can take from them what you like.

 

First and foremost, you need to decide whether you're going to take Land Raiders or not. Believe it or not, this will affect the makeup of your army more than any other single decision. If you take Land Raiders, you'll need at least 2, and they will be the center of your list and tactics. I don't prefer this style, so I won't say much about it. But Silent Requiem makes a very good case for it, and in his tactica he tells how to play it effectively. Instead, I'll concentrate on the mostly-infantry DH build.

 

The core of any good DH army is made up of power-armoured Grey Knights (PAGKs). These are the single most versatile troops in the game, and kick major arse. I won't tell you what they're good at, because #6 already did. What I will point out is that there is one important thing PAGKs are not good at: anti-tank. Psycannons aren't bad against very light tanks, like land speeders and rhinos, but against anything higher than about AV11 they're pretty much useless. Meltabombs are worth taking (I always do), but they're more a just-in-case thing, as you can't always expect to be in base-to-base with enemy vehicles. So, while you definitely want lots of PAGKs for the core of your army, keep in mind that you're filling up on anti-infantry, and will need to take some anti-tank later on.

 

The PAGK units you use for the core of your army should have no psycannons and no Incinerators (one incinerator is all right if they're in a Land Raider, but otherwise none). This will keep you mobile, fully-effective at range, and better equipped for CC. You might take a couple "mini-purgation squads" (with 2 psycannons) later on, but only once you have at least two sizeable squads of basic PAGKs. Justicars should always have frags and meltabombs, just in case.

 

After you've taken got your PAGKs, now is the time to figure out what the rest of your army will look like. And the first gap to fill is anti-tank. There are several good choices: ISTs with meltaguns in Rhinos, Dreads with missile launchers and either lascannons or autocannons (always take at leaat one with las before taking any with auto, as the las is better against high AV, and that's what the DH really need), Land Raiders, allied sisters (Seraphim are probably best, though regular sisters with meltaguns in rhinos would work), allied guard platoons, or allied space marine squads. I don't use allies much (though I'm starting to try out a spacie list with lots of allied GKs, which looks quite promising), and we've already established we're not using Land Raiders, so I'll talk about ISTs and Dreads.

 

Anti-tank ISTs provide two things for the DH player: meltaguns, and Rhinos. The Rhinos are actually just as important as the meltaguns, and a lot of the finesse of using ISTs involves moving your Rhinos properly. You see, a Rhino isn't simply a means of getting a squad from point A to point B; it's also a 6"-long solid wall. Playing DHs, you'll find out quickly that cover is everything! We don't have the numbers to wage wars of attrition, so we rely on line-of-sight (LoS) restrictions to shelter us from too much incoming fire. Rhinos are essentially mobile cover, which can be used to cover an advance. When I use Rhinos, I try to line them up in front of my PAGKs to completely block LoS from most of the enemy's army, while giving me a clear path to shoot a couple of his units on a flank. But remember, while you're moving around and trying to protect your PAGKs, you also want to be moving the Rhinos forward to get those meltaguns within range of enemy tanks.

 

Dreadnoughts are much different. They aren't team players like ISTs are. Instead of running out front and sheltering their teammates, they hang back and shoot from behind cover. Dreads are very good anti-tank platforms, and most opponents will target them early on, and keep targeting them until they're dead. To protect yourself from this, hide behind terrain as much as possible to block LoS to the Dread from everything except the one tank it's shooting at. Of course, this won't always be possible, but try to come as close as you can to that ideal. Also, as Number6 will tell you, Extra Armour is pretty much mandatory on Dreads. Consider: if a Dread gets stunned, it's a sitting duck, and whatever shot it will have another chance next turn. However, if that stunned result is turned into a shaken, the dread can move behind cover for a turn, so it won't be shot at least until it gets to shoot again. I should also add that you should never take just one Dread. Taking even two, or certainly 3, splits up the incoming fire, with the result that all the Dreads last longer (plus, if one dies, you still have anti-tank on the board).

 

Whether you take IST or Dreads is up to you, and depends a lot on how you want to play. Of course, pure GK armies need Dreads like a plant needs water. In a DH army though, I guess it depends on whether you want to be aggressive or not. The Rhinos need to move forward, and PAGKs benefit from following behind, so taking ISTs will make your army aggressive. Dreads hang back and don't cover your PAGKs, so they definitely do not make you aggressive. They don't necessarily make you defensive; just not aggressive.

 

Once you have your anti-tank, you'll need an HQ. The cheapest and easiest is a lone Brother-Captain with a psycannon. A solid choice. You could also give him a retinue, basically making your HQ into a regular GKT squad. If you want a bit more punch, and have the points to spend, you could upgrade to a Grand Master. If you do, drop the psycannon and head for CC (I give mine a power weapon and master-craft his Nemesis Force Weapon). Or, alternatively, you could take an Inquisitor Lord. Just remember, if you do that, you'll have no access to Dreadnoughts or Land Raiders (except as transports for inqiuisitors).

 

Lastly, you should figure how many points you have left, and decide what frills to give your army. Would you like some GKT to spearhead your charge (or, alternatively, hang back and shoot psycannons)? Would you like an Inquisitor and perhaps some Assassins? Or you could go with my favorite choice: forget frills, and fill out your points with more PAGKs!

 

It goes without saying that a lot of people go about building army lists very differently than I do, and also that they have different opinions about the units I've described. As I said, this is just what I think, and you may take from it what you will. Whatever you do though, the key is to make sure your list is balanced and versatile, and that your units work well together. You saw how I paid a lot of attention to balancing anti-infantry with anti-tank. What I didn't say much about was being sure to take lots of mobile stuff so you can react mid-game (we're lucky in that almost all of our unit choices are mobile). No matter what units you take or how you build up your list, always keep these things in mind, and you should end up with a solid army.

 

Good luck, and welcome to the ranks!

[Glubtrak]

Wow, so much good info in one place! This is a good read for newbies everywhere.

Much appriciated.

[Uncle Putte]

I agree. The new =][= players are amply compensated with talented and attentive senior players over the fact that they've chosen complex armies to play. And well, to be honest, it was all a good read too. :rolleyes:

[Razmus]

wow! thanks for the quick and more than adequate replies. I just finished silent requium's tactica on the element wariors. GREAT read. I must admit that i happen to be one of those noobs who are enchanted by the stoic images of the space marines and all their fluff; however after reading the tactica and the posts that all you fine vets have provided, i almost came to the conclusion that this army and it's style of play weren't for me (at this time).

 

i said almost. i then began to analyze (sp?) why i then would not want to play them. it was because as a new player i want to win. plain and simple. the few dh players in my area rarely win battles. but in the dh's defense, they play gk like deathwing and are always trying to denie the charge, and quite simply playing them like fire warriors.

 

that said i have reconsidered my personal tastes in combat style and wholeheartedly agree that water warrior tactics prove to be just as competetive as any other army out there.

 

i'm sold. now on to phase duce. army composition. right off bat, my impulse is pure grey knights.

 

what i have:

LRC (or LR)

50 unpainted/assembled marines (a simple conversion hopefully will make them look like PAGK)

 

that's it. i would like about 2500pts worth of gk's so that i might have variences to my lists that still adhere to the prescribed style of combat. please tell me what works for you and what doesn't. who are your allstars?

 

thanks again for all you that helped the new guy out. any further assistence will be greatly appreciated.

 

v/r

Raz

[number6]

wow! thanks for the quick and more than adequate replies. I just finished silent requium's tactica on the element wariors. GREAT read. I must admit that i happen to be one of those noobs who are enchanted by the stoic images of the space marines and all their fluff; however after reading the tactica and the posts that all you fine vets have provided, i almost came to the conclusion that this army and it's style of play weren't for me (at this time).

 

i said almost. i then began to analyze (sp?) why i then would not want to play them. it was because as a new player i want to win. plain and simple. the few dh players in my area rarely win battles. but in the dh's defense, they play gk like deathwing and are always trying to denie the charge, and quite simply playing them like fire warriors.

[...]

i'm sold. now on to phase duce. army composition. right off bat, my impulse is pure grey knights.

I often describe the pure GK army as being akin to Deathwing. I see both of them as mobile firepower armies. However, the GKs have significant advantages over the Deathwing. We have superior numbers (ironically), which means the pure GK army has far more firepower and far more assault power than the traditional Deathwing terminator army. And in the early turns, the shrouding is even better protection against enemy shooting than terminator armour alone. So, they're somewhat similar, but with GKs you have several more tactical options available at all stages of every game you play.

 

But make no mistake: the pure GK army is perhaps the most challenging DH army style to play, and the army is already pretty challenging. But that's exactly what makes the DH worth playing, in my book. Every win you gain will be well and truly earned. :)

what i have:

LRC (or LR)

50 unpainted/assembled marines (a simple conversion hopefully will make them look like PAGK)

 

that's it. i would like about 2500pts worth of gk's so that i might have variences to my lists that still adhere to the prescribed style of combat. please tell me what works for you and what doesn't. who are your allstars?

Like Aidoneus said above, you first decision must be whether or not to use any land raiders in your army. If you do, then Silent Requiem's tactica should guide your list construction and tactical approach. This is an army where the raiders are the real workhorses, they will control your gameplan, and you will live and die as they live and die. In your games, your raiders will act like aircraft carriers with fighter squadrons (GKs) which should be released only when you can apply their force overwhelmingly. The "mechanized" pure GK army is very much an army based upon the overall strategy of VP denial, making it "feel" somewhat defensive.

 

If you are going to forgo the use of land raiders, then expect to use 2-3 dreadnoughts and have at least two 8+ model vanilla PAGK squads for troops in every army you build. At the standard 1500 pts level, you should be fielding between 24 and 30 vanilla PAGKs, minimum. Only after you've covered your anti-armour with dreads and built your solid core of PAGK infantry can you consider the questions of BC or GM, fewer or greater numbers of GKTs, limited use of special weapons on PAGKs, etc.

[Razmus]

1500 pts seems a little smallish for this army. however, silent requium makes it work effectively at 1000 pts.

 

i think the lists i build will be geared more for the 1750 pts range. what are a few core builds at this points value that would include two LR's?

 

also, is it common for players to take two minimal squads of IST's just to fulfill the compulsory troops slots so as to take more usefull units?

 

v/r

Raz

[Aidoneus]

also, is it common for players to take two minimal squads of IST's just to fulfill the compulsory troops slots so as to take more usefull units?

"...so as to take more useful units?" No. Not when you can fill your compulsory choices with PAGKs. If your question ended with, "so as to get some cheap, yet effective, high-strength low-AP weapons and transports?" the answer would be yes. IST are defnitely worth the buy either as tank-hunters with meltaguns and Rhinos, or as firebases with plasma guns and Chimeras. But, of course, if you're going pure GK, those options wouldn't be available to you. Nothing says you have to limit yourself like that; I just mention it because you had said earlier you wanted pure GK.

 

i think the lists i build will be geared more for the 1750 pts range. what are a few core builds at this points value that would include two LR's?

Lists with Land Raiders aren't my specialty really. However, at 1750 I'd have at least two Raiders, probably also an LRC as well. Each tank would contain a unit of PAGK (if I took all three LRs, the LRC might have GKTs instead), with one Incinerator per squad. Depending on how many points I had left over, I might buy a nice CC-oriented GM, or perhaps a 4-man psycannon GKT squad, or ISTs if I wasn't going pure GK. I think Silent Requiems tactics would work well with an army build like that. I can tell you for certain he'd put in that third Raider anywhere 1500pts or higher.

[robdark1]

simply how many point you play on playing. buy book write list and comply down how much it going to cost you then spend your wad of money..

that perty simple to explain,,

[guillaume]

Since these are stickied I assume we are allowed to revive these topics.

 

I was wondering whether those of you who obviously have an idea about how to play DH could update the tactica to playing against the new daemons.

 

It has become very clear that many players are starting daemons and with a host of new rules, how can the GK take full advantage of their wargear to defeat them.

[Nelo Akuma]

@guillaume:

 

well, the most obvious way of countering the new daemons armies would be the use of more Psycannons, Incinerators or Psycannon Bolts as they ignore invulnerable saves and for most daemon models that is all they have.

 

in fact only the Bloodthirsters, Bloodcrushers, Skarbrand, Skulltaker, Heralds of Khorne on a Juggernaut or Chariot or with Iron Hide gift and finally a Daemon Prince with Iron Hide gift have a armor save. and it is a 3+, not that much of a threat if you ask me compared to a tank heavy list. and with the highest Toughness under those daemons being 6 (on Skarbrand) the Psycannon should be more than enough to deal with them.

 

and targets for heavy weapons on Dreads and LR are easy to pick out: Soul Grinders and then Greater Daemons or ICs.

 

a shooting heavy Inquisitor might actually start thinking about taking Sanctuary as Psychic Power. creating a 3'' radius area where no daemon can exist or see through sounds pretty valuable in theory at least.

[Aidoneus]

5th edition has been out for a while, and while I haven't played too many games so far (maybe half a dozen), they've all been with my Grey Knights, and I think I'm getting a feel for the changes we're facing. That being the case, I think it's time this thread were updated!

 

First and foremost, I want to say that the core elements of GK list-building haven't changed. Everything Number6, RLS, and myself said earlier in this thread still holds very true. The only updates needed for 5th edition are more like tweaks; just little shifts in what's important to take.

 

1) TROOPS MATTER: This is HUGE! luckily, we have the best troops in the galaxy (yes, I maintain that PAGKs are better all-'round troops than Plague Marines or Thousand Sons), and now there is no reason not to take them. ISTs have their place, as always. I find them now very useful to leave in place to hold a nearby objective, while my PAGKs go fight enemies off and claim more contentious objectives. Inducted IG have actually gained in value, as they are perfect for piling onto a home objective and providing long-range fire support for our forward PAGKs (great in capture and control). The bottom line though is that it has become much more beneficial to load up on Troops units rather than E or FA units that might fill the same niche.

 

2) That being said...: Let's not go overboard though. Troops matter, but that isn't to say troops are everything. Remember, in any objective-based game, you only need to control one more objective than the enemy. And remember too that, so long as a single enemy Troops model is near the objective, having your own Troops unit there is no more helpful than having your own HQ, E, FA, or HS unit there. It's a contested objective either way. Therefore, a good strategy is often to put a lot of effort into controlling, beyond all doubt, one (possibly two) objectives, and sending non-scoring units to go contest the other objectives. For this sort of mission, GKTs, FAGKs, Seraphim, and Land Raiders all excel.

 

3) Kill Points: Again, GK have an advantage here. Finally, our overpriced units have become a good thing. With 200+pts invested in each unit, we're going to have far fewer kill points than other armies (man, do I even feel sorry for IG armies!). However, even so, we still need to be careful not to take too many units. Things like assassins, daemonhosts, and inducted IG platoons all add lots of Kill Points. Transports too may become a liability.

 

4) The Balancing Act: Combining points 1 and 3 produces an interesting situation. We want to take more units to score, and also to contest, objectives. At the same time though, we want fewer KPs. What I have found is that the best solution is, again, to take Troops units instead of similar HQ, E, or FA units. An army designed with that thought in mind will be more efficient than another army with the same number of KPs, but fewer scoring units, and it will downright more effective than an army with the same number of scoring units, but fewer units overall. However, again, we must keep in mind point #2, and not be afraid to take 1 or 2 specialty squads from other force org categories. And yes, I know this is confusing. Everything I've said seems to be working against each other. Hence why I call it a balancing act. There is no "best" solution here; it's up to the individual player to find the appropriate median to fit their own playstyle.

 

5) Anti-tank: While the need for, and availability of, anti-infantry firepower has not changed much, our need for anti-tank has changed considerably. In 5th edition tanks are far more resilient than in 4th. Gone are the days of glancing-6s to kill, of auto-stunning on pens, of having a 50-50 chance of killing it on a pen, or of automatically forcing disembarks and entanglements all the time. Thus, in an army that has always struggled with anti-tank, we now need even more. Luckily though, we've gotten some lucky breaks in anti-tank availability too. First off, the new Power of the Machine Spirit rule is utterly fantastic! This alone (let alone everything I said above) makes Land Raiders far more useful in 5th. And every HS slot that isn't taken up with a Land Raider ought to be taken up with a las/missile dread. meltagun ISTs, though never my personal favorite unit, are also more valuable now. On a different line entirely, we have also benefitted more than anyone else from the rule that infantry hit vehicles on their rear armour. Suddenly every single PAGK has become a lethal anti-tank weapon! Think about it; they can destroy any vehicle in the game save three: Land Raiders, Monoliths, and Soul Grinders!

 

6) Goodbye Psycannon BC: I don't know about all of you, but in 4th ed, every single list I made featured a 91pt BC with psycannon (or 111pt with psychic hood). His Independnt character status made him an untargetable mobile gun platform. Now, however, ICs do not benefit from this sort of protection; they are either part of a unit, or a unit in their own right, end of story. That being the case, we have three options: put the psycannon BC in a squad (either retinue or just some squad during the game), find a different cheap HQ, or go for a more expensive HQ instead. The first option means he has to target the same thing his squad does, so it works best with GKTs with a psycannon (or two), and almost as well with PAGKs with psycannons. For the second option, running a BC plain, or with psycannon bolts or a storm shield, and simply adding him to a PAGK squad, works decently well. Not great, but good enough, and dirt cheap. Lastly, you could always take a nice, hefty GKT or Inq Lord squad, possibly even a Grand Master+ Retinue. Personally, I don't favor this approach, because it's just so many points of not-Troops. But if it appeals to you, go for it.

 

Those are the biggest changes I've noticed. If anyone else has more to add, feel free to keep on counting. :huh:

[SpideyScott]

A good read i agree with what you said. One small thing is you havent mentioned is that in CC troops fight agaisnt a walkers front armour. So things like dreads, defilers etc become more problematic. Melta bombs can work but its only 1 attack that you need a to roll a 6 to hit. Of course you could hope to get alot of weapon destroyed, immobilised results which will evenetually destroy it.

 

This brings me on to the BC, i think giving him hammer hand has always been a good ideas. He can penetrate upto AV 13 and glance AV 14. He also gets his normal number of attacks in Init order +1A for having 2 weapons (his fists) all if you pass a psychic test. Psychic hoods are still a good idea and can be used regardless if he is attached to a squad or in a transport now.

 

Also with the changes to grendes and cover when we assault into cover we will be at Init 1 except for the justicar if he has frag in which case he will go at his normal Init. Also this means because of rites of exorcism daemons who assault us have to roll dice as if moving through difficult terrain.

 

Finally for being fearless if we lose a combat we suffer a number of wounds equal to the number we lost by. With wound allocation it is entirly possible for the justicar to be lost as well if the number of wounds equals or exceeds the squad size.

 

Thats all i can think of at the moment.

[Lord Rao]

Excellent thread, guys! This is certainly one of the best tacticas on this forum afaik.

 

While it may have been hinted at in the previous posts, it's probably worth stressing that with the 5th ed. focus on Troops, ISTs with meltas are now superior to (or at least more versatile than) sniper-dreds as tank killers, because they can now also claim (not just contest) objectives. It might be a small bonus, but it can make all the difference in the latter stages of the game when there is an uncontested objective and you still have a functioning rhino.

Even if simply contesting, that extra mobility will pay dividends.

 

Plus I've never really liked the idea of having to pimp my WS5 dreds to become gun platforms anyway...

 

I like versatility in my units, and hence eschew the sniper dred in my GK armies. This is a further recommendation for the LR, as it now makes even more sense to shamelessly spend all your three HS slots on these awesome tanks.