Tsuro's Truescale marines

[Tsuro]

So I've been working on a true scale marine concept for a while now, and have been working on a test model for proportions etc as I don't want to make an army of these guys only to have someone later point out that 'human arms don't grow that long' or 'the chest is too large' or similar. To that end, I would appreciate it if you fine people would have a look at my model and let me know if it looks like a 'true' scale marine to you or not.

I was hoping to have a basically finalised version for you all, but I realised that I would likely be adding iconography and accessories at a later date so I didn't want to prime the model. Once I realised I wasn't going to undercoat the model for this feedback I came to the conclusion that smoothing the Greenstuff was taking a while and I was anxious to begin work on the squad proper, and so I haven't sculpted the soft armour joints either.

This will make the hips and elbows appear thinner than they will be on the final version.

(Pictures of single model are greyscale, as I thought this would help clarity. Obviously, using a white background for photography when I'd used white plasticard was a mistake. Hence the almost invisible belt)

shots with other miniatures : apart from the squatting marine, they were chosen because of their upright posture. (stupidly, I've modeled my marine in a stooping walking stance, so you can't really judge his height right). Apologies also for the awful paint jobs; the assault marine was painted when the model was first released, just before I took my hiatus from then to now, and the iron guard is much older than that. The puttied marine is one I've been practicing on whenever I had a bit of putty left over.

and with a bare head :

What do you guys think? too tall? too short? too thick? too thin? etc..

Thanks for your help

Tsuro

The right wrist needs completely repositioning.

The left shoulder should be lowered.

The left arm shouldn't swing as far back

Green stuff needs smoothing.

Also, I'm thinking of tapering to the wrists and knee (from the thigh) in the final design.

[Maeklos]

I think the proportions of the arms and legs are pretty accurate, but the torso is a bit too thin, I'd say. Marines have large chests, and that's overlaid by the Black Carapace, and then the bulk of the Power Armour, so I'd say that his chest should be another 50% to 75% wider than it is.

[Alys Dwr]

I'd say make the lower torso a bit wider and the thigh section a wee bit longer to get the proportions right. At the moment he appeard to have child bearing hips and a tiny waist - arguably good on a human super model, but not on a model super human.

 

Al

[Tiriel]

Well, appart what my predecessors said about the torso, the chainsword arm is too long.

Have you ever seen a human scratch his knees without bending? xD

 

But honestly, I don't think I couldn't do as much repositionning and sculpting as you, so my "true scale-like" marines are merelly doghouse pattern ones...

 

Keep going and keep us posted!

[Berzerker Pezz]

That's pretty cool, and the size of my aspiring champion :P

[Cpt. Bannockburn]

That pose is awesome, imo :ph34r:

 

Maybe shorten the chainsword arm a bit, and widen his waist, then he's perfect

 

Give us a tutorial on how you've done it, willya? :)

[Thor Thundercaller]

Okay, let's start with the basics:

 

Average male height is approximately 6 foot.

Average Space Marine height is around 8 foot? (including armor?)

 

Now when measuring height for a sketch, it is said that 7.5 to 8 'heads' equal a properly proportioned body. In other words, 8 heads stacked on top of each other equal the proper proportions for the average human body. (EX: Image)

 

For a Marine, let's add at least 2 more heads, so 10 heads total? Sound good?

 

Let's look at yours:

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v235/coco_da_monke/example.jpg

 

That's off angle, using a helmet, and a quick dirty scale; but your only at 6 heads. I'd say your missing height is in the legs, they seem far too short.

 

But that's my being a perfectionist :ph34r: That's just my input, take it or leave it, he seems good so far.

thor

[Mud]

I echo what the rest have said, I think true scale looks a lot nicer, much like comparing the old termie models to the new ones, the new ones look like they can move a whole lot better. The tradtional power armor makes the marine look a lot more in flexible an dfrom the fluff, the suit gives no indication of being a hinderance in battle...

 

Nice work, tutorial would be great!

[BLARGAG!!!]

that looks awesome as is. if you get a chance eventually, could you do a tutorial on how you did this? i really want to true scale some marines, but i dont have the $ for a whole bunch of termi legs and i dont really like the chaos warrior legs idea either. i think that you have achieved a happy medium and it looks great!!!

 

got to get back to work now

 

Later

BLARGAG!!!

[ToyShip]

I love him!!! Looks good, you succeeded where I failed, in the shoulders. Plenty of bulk there.....As to some criticism, do you plan on making the bolter any bigger? It looks to small for him in my opinion, his arms would get all cramped up if he was firing with both hands.

 

Toyship :D

[fireangel]

I am a lot more a lurker on this site then a participant.

I wish that one day I could make time for my miniatures, but as of now my artwork is more important. That being said I am a clasically trained professional artist that has spent many a day drawing nude human forms.

 

With that as background here are my thoughts:

 

Most truescale attempts by hobbiest fail horribly in thier proportion. In fact I think I have only seen one or two approachesnot using the chaos warrior legs that actually work (and even these still look wrong).

 

Jes' sculpts of marines (not terminators) are actually pretty good in regards to proportion. If you take out the bent knees that are in EVERY single marine model and stretched them out into a prone pose the proportions would be dead on. This is because Jes is a trained artist and he knows what he is doing. If you have ever seen his drawing of a life size SM you will see what I mean. The armour works pretty well (while it is still a little on the un-realistic side), you can actually picture a body being in power armour and able to actually move.

 

My thought has always been not that the marine models are to small, but that the gaurd models are to big (especially the heads).

 

As for your model you did an OK job but:

 

There is no phyiscal way that a human could support shoulders as broad as you have with a lower torso the size that you have it. His waste is like that of a woman in a corset. Also, the shoulders are so broad that he would have to have a good foot gap in between his arms, and his torso n order to even get his hands to the base of the armor(IE really big shoulder sockets, more like a robot toy then a human figure, picture big ball joints that stick up and out from the body)

 

If you want to make it more realistic I would say work on his lower torso.

 

By the way where is his butt and groin? That part of the body is about half as big as the thigh, it's flexible, and the ball and socket joints in the pelvis are integral to all movement. Your marine looks like The Emperor forgot about this fact completely. It has no butt at all, and literally the form simply goes from Chest, to Legs. All the space in between you seem to have forgotton about.

 

Honestly if you want a good true scale marine measure every proportion of Jes' sculpts, and literally blow the whole miniature up to scale missing no detail.

 

As for Thor's comments:

 

A marine would still have the same proportions as a human (ie using the classic measurement 7 heads tall). Everything would be bigger including the head so saying it should be different from this model is actually horribly wrong (and why true scale projects fail). A marine wouldn't grow in some areas and not in others, it would defeat the purpose of human evolution, and the ability for the body to function at prime effeciancy.

 

Also measuring a model with bent knees against the seven heads doesn't pan out in any way. If you extended this miniature to it's full height it would be over 7 heads tall.

[Berzerker Pezz]

Most truescale attempts by hobbiest fail horribly in thier proportion. In fact I think I have only seen one or two approachesnot using the chaos warrior legs that actually work (and even these still look wrong).

 

Honestly, they're models. I don't care if they're in human proportion, I just want them to be taller than a regular marine. Drawing them and hand sculpting is a different story, but I think a lot of model parts are oversized for more detail and visual emphasis.

 

There is no phyiscal way that a human could support shoulders as broad as you have with a lower torso the size that you have it. His waste is like that of a woman in a corset. Also, the shoulders are so broad that he would have to have a good foot gap in between his arms, and his torso n order to even get his hands to the base of the armor(IE really big shoulder sockets, more like a robot toy then a human figure, picture big ball joints that stick up and out from the body)

 

Yeah I think it could be fixed by beefing it out a little, and if he lost the effect made around the ribbing on his thighs.

 

A marine would still have the same proportions as a human (ie using the classic measurement 7 heads tall). Everything would be bigger including the head so saying it should be different from this model is actually horribly wrong (and why true scale projects fail). A marine wouldn't grow in some areas and not in others, it would defeat the purpose of human evolution, and the ability for the body to function at prime effeciancy.

 

I like doing truescales personally by the exaggerated fluff armor, where their head looks like a peanut -laugh- I imagine the head itself would be smaller encased in the helmet as well, so it would add some believability to scale. The biggest problems I see with this truescale are the proportions of forearm to leg size, but I like the bulk he added. I did hear from someone once that a marine's head is one of the few things they ignored when genetically modifying them, but I have to read the Adeptus Astartes book again about the modifications and the black carapace.

 

Woot

[Cpt. Bannockburn]

fireangel: As a professional artist, I'm sure you've heard of 'heroic proportions', e.g. like those used in comics, and in this case I think, the exaggeration really hits the spot.

And since you can't make the armies of other people smaller (Guard <_< ), you just make your marines taller instead ^^

Personally I don't do this, since for me it's way too much work for an army of about 40 bodies, but I respect the notion and it can lead to awesome results.

[Superknijn]

Is it just me or do the original posters' models lack any hips?

[Tsuro]

Thanks for the comments so far guys, this is exactly what I needed.

 

Its manifestly obvious that the lower torso needs re-working. Now that its been pointed out I can't believe I ever thought it was right. Although it would explain why I was unhappy with the hips... Unfortunately this will necessarily involve green stuff sculpting (at least on the prototype and almost certainly the rest of them as well), which is something I was trying to avoid if at all possible on this project. Still, I suppose everyone has to start somewhere.

 

The left arm will be shortened. Theres not a lot I can do on the prototype without serious remodeling, but I think if I fit the wrist flush with the armour like it was intended to, raise the arm up on the torso and knock a little bit off of the top then it'll work out.

 

The groin was one of the few areas I didn't scale up completely as fireangel suggests, and the reason for this was because once I'd widened it it looked about the same size as the ones on the new terminators. This is also something I'm going to try and fix with greenstuff (ugh)

 

As for the rear being too small, this is something I was hoping to get comment on (which is why I cleverly made no mention of it. I'm a genius) Most of the measurements were taken from drawings of space marines, but I didn't have any of the side or back, so I didn't do much more than guess. Does the rear have to extend further back, and if so how far?

 

I'm not sure what to do about the 'ball and socket' shoulders. I could narrow the top of the torso so the arms hang better by the side, or I could just acccept that that is one of the movement restrictions when wearing inch thick armour and narrow the arm tops themselves. Thinking cap time.

 

As for the Bolter (and indeed all of his equipment) This is one of the areas that I decided not to scale. My main thinking was along the lines of "marines aren't the only people to use bolters, why would theirs be any larger?" Of course if it turns out that the bolter is now too small for him to use then I'll do something about it. (god knows what) Which I guess means at least one of these guys will be holding his weapon double handed. Along this train of thought, I haven't scaled the power pack.

 

anyone think its too small?

 

For all those wanting a tutorial, I'm more than happy to provide one. I haven't any photos yet other than the ones already displayed, but I'll take plenty when I start the squad proper and either upload a full tut at the end or update an ongoing one as I proceed. I don't know as how many would actually use it though, the process is...involved, to say the least.

 

Now, I'm going to have a go at that torso. If things go well I should hopefully have an updated picture for this afternoon, of that section if nothing else.

 

 

Tsuro

 

yeah, its all the guards fault. esp those Catachans, what were they thinking?

[Solamus]

It looks good, but the hips/pelvis region joining onto the upper legs needs some...... maybe thickening or bulking, at the moment it looks anatomically impossible for him to be in that armour there...... or he'd need to be strangely formed in that area anyway.

 

 

I actually think it's the very upright pose that exaggerates this, I guess maybe GW marines are usually in a squat position for a reason.

[fireangel]

Yea I know heroic proportions, that's great and all, but many a comic book artist laughs at Marvel's attempts at the human form. "How many muscles can we stack on top of the bicep..."

 

In regards to the ball and socket joints. This has always been an issue I have had with all SM models, and in particular Terminators. I don't even want to go there, because it drives me nuts that no-one will answer how a person is suppossed to fit in those suits.

 

As for the power armour though even Jes' sculpts don't really line up with a true human's range of movement. Basically all marines can't let thier arms hang down. I'd say don't worry too much about it, just over compensate with the shoulder pads.

 

As for those Catachans, what a perfect example of how horrible everything but Jes' sculpts looked durring 2nd and early 3rd edition when GW decided to employ illustrators and modelors that believed in the heroic proportion tactic. I remember even as a kid laughing at some of the illustrations of the Catachan muscle men.

[Tsuro]

I've widened the lower torso as many of you suggested, and I've also lowered the sides of the chest armour so that they reach the belt as on the regular models (I thought that this would help with problem.) I was pretty happy with the result until I widened the belt and added the arms and head back on. Now it looks a little odd to me.

I'm running slightly late, so I wasn't able to set up the model correctly (hence the missing sword and powerpack) but this is how the model looks now.

Also, I've just noticed that I didn't take a picture directly from the front.

I'll do more when I get back tomorrow.

Tsuro

[darkmarauder]

Really cool. Its like what we see in most of the concept art. But I must say: the area where the legs join the cod piece is a little thin.

[lord_bunny]

that, looks, AWESOME!

 

please. make molds, so they all look that good!

[Tsuro]

So This is how the prototype currently looks :

I've lengthened the groin section since the last photos and reshaped the the area where the upper torso meets the belt.

As you can see, the final posing of the arms isn't finalised yet.

I'm pretty happy with the proportions as they now stand, so I may begin work on the rest of the squad rather than on sculpting the soft armour on the prototype (which would be the next step). Although this does mean that I'll have to look at the unfinished hip section for a while longer. I'll sculpt the soft armour first on the prototype before I attempt the rest of the squad's, as this is going to be my test model for techniques I haven't tried out.

I think the sword may be slightly bent. something else to fix...

Lord_Bunny, making molds would be a good idea. Sadly, the only casting process I have available to me is green stuff casting which I believe is not suitable for making many copies. Also, for reasons that will soon become clear, making a number of copies may not actually fit with the aesthetic I'm shooting for.

Tsuro

[darkmarauder]

That screams POWER!

[Brother Raphael]

I don't know if it is what darkmarauder pointed at (because english is not my mother tongue - btw, what is "cod piece" when speaking of anatomy, I looked in the dictionary, it sais cod is a fish...)

 

I think the space, where the upper legs join the torso, looks to thin. I would suggest to heighten the upper leg armour.

 

And I second to make the armour in front of the chest a bit bigger.

 

Apart from that, the Marine looks great so far for me. I really like the walking-pose.

 

 

Please excuse my bad english (today it's really bad :P ).

[Savage Mortician]

Looks excellent. A lot more like my image of huge marines. btw Brother Raphael, the codpiece is the groin guard

[StratoKhan]

The chest looks fine to me. Any wider and the arms start to be too far apart. I think you've acheived a good balance with your modifications. You need to be careful, because a lot of bulk in the armour really screws up the posing. You need to find a good balance before they look like unwieldly lumps.

 

Anyways, I'm impressed.

 

For a Marine, let's add at least 2 more heads, so 10 heads total? Sound good?

 

Where do you get these extra heads from? Space marines are still proportional to their heads it seems. 2 is too much. In fact, any is too much.

 

That's off angle, using a helmet, and a quick dirty scale; but your only at 6 heads. I'd say your missing height is in the legs, they seem far too short.

But that's my being a perfectionist

 

If you're a perfectionist, why are you using such a rough scale? As you said, the model's off angle. The legs are bent. That should add more height. The model is probably proportional.