5th Ed Rulebook FAQ

[Red Lost Soldier]

Here.

 

One thing to note, our dedicated transports just got re-dedicated. Also our useless wargear is now at least officially useless. Other than that it's pretty thin.

[ThePurifier]

Hey, well it's good to know it's at least 'official' now. At least we have a lot of 'sucking-it-up' experience under the belt already.

[tksolway]

Mabye at some point before 6th edition we will get an updated codex :-)

[Coppella]

Hmm, I think the only crappy part of that, is the fact we can't use other Rhinos to pick up a stranded squad anymore.

Also, I lost a reason to buy a Redeemer Land Raider :D

[Melissia]

Yeah, disapointing, but with how lame GW has been over teh course of its history, we're reather used to it.

[Gentlemanloser]

Sanctuary can be used from inside a LR, and it's bubble size is measured from the Hull. Go Go Massive anti Daemon Bubbles of Doom!

 

Edit: We've also got a FAQ to say that Codex trumps BRB.

 

"if a Codex clearly says <snip> that overrules the

general rule in the rulebook, as normal."

[jakehunter52]

At first...I was enraged. I hate the fact that our transports are rededicated, it was a really cool option for our GKs if we wanted. And it doesn't make sense why they would do this, it was a restriction in 4th and so doing a simple FAQ saying yes they can isn't that hard. And up until now, I was ok w/ the shifty answers that GW was giving about wargear, the long overdue faq on many things, and the simple fact of codex age. But only know has it really hit me how screwed over we getting, how I have been simply looking at the few bright things our codex offers and ignoring the rest. So now, I am somber and disappointed. I have lost serious respect of Games Workshop and really question how much they care about their gaming community. It has been know for a long time that DH has been the worst army out their for a considerable amount of time and yet GW did nothing about it. Sure, they are getting around to update the older codexes but these are old, well built codexes that could still put out it's fair share. Ours is not only old but weak, has numerous discrepancies that have yet to be addressed and only is held aloft by the talented players that still use them. We need a new codex just as much as Dark Eldar do, as Daemons did. And yet we find ourselves at the tail end of a five year plan...why so long? Really, why? Why did we not come after Daemons? Is it the profits? Is it the players? I don't understand why they continue to torture us, to insult us by stealing our uniqueness and when they finally come around to redoing our codex, will anyone still play them? I am weeping now, for I see how forsaken we are.

[tksolway]

I know how you feel, I've talked to man a GW employee in the area and none of them think DH is coming along any time soon, and they will generally hint what is coming down the line.

[Auedawen]

I noticed that too Gentlemanloser. And honestly, despite my original fears of being rejected in 5th...the DH codex has only gotten stronger. Force Weapons that can insta-kill models with Eternal Warrior, Land Raider Crusaders that may fire the Hurricane Bolters NO MATTER how far the LRC has moved, or any other weapons it may be firing. Sanctuary is legitimately power-gamey.

 

What have us DH lost from 4th? Heavy 4 Rending Assault cannons...woooooo. What have we gained...a whole damn lot considering what should have changed. I'm willing to look on the bright side here, I feel daemonhunters are surprisingly powerful now, even against Codex: Daemons which we were originally thought to be weak against (turns out psycannons kick their ass more than we'd anticipated, and Rites of Exorcism always treats GK as being in cover when charged against daemons).

 

As for Sisters, they now have the most efficient troops unit in the game. 3+ armor at a mere 11 points? Yes please. Exorcist missile launchers can still penetrate AV 14 as well as they could before. Flamers received a tremendous boost in 5th. And sisters STILL have one of the best HQ's in the game.

 

 

As an Inquisition player, I can't really find anything to complain about anymore. The fact that the ancient nature of our codex, and the negligence on GW's part has indeed strengthened our armies is...delightful and will last until we get truly updated codecii. Until then, my 25 point grey knights w/o frags will do, as will my superior force weapons, rites of exorcism, LRC's, sanctuary, and so forth.

[Toogeloo]

Pulled this from the Witch Hunter FAQ

 

 

Transports

The second print run of the Codex removed

references to a transport vehicle only being

usable by the unit that bought it

 

Does this mean we now override the rededication of transports, or that it was erroneously omitted from the second printing of the Codex?

[Marid]

Perhaps GW should consider publishing downloadable codexes for less popular armies. I wouldn't mind paying $20 for a pdf if it meant the end of this. I've spent a staggering amount of money on this hobby in only two and half years. Ranks of Grey Knights, Storm Troopers, Sisters, and Forgeworld-blessed Rhinos, Dreadnoughts, and Land Raiders. Easily closing in on $1000. Add in the paint, spray cans, tools, and even Dawn of War and its expansions. I think we have all made up for the cost of a new codex in models many times over. It is time to go digital for us.

 

There really is not that much work to do. We don't really need an entirely new text. Despite the pleas for plastic models, we don't need them (some of us don't even want them). Publish a $20 updated PDF of the book and you have my money. Simple as that. One GKT costs almost as much. Some of the needed rule changes were made already for the french-language book. It's not that big of a rewrite. Enough with the ancient technology.

[Marid]

I noticed that too Gentlemanloser. And honestly, despite my original fears of being rejected in 5th...the DH codex has only gotten stronger. Force Weapons that can insta-kill models with Eternal Warrior, Land Raider Crusaders that may fire the Hurricane Bolters NO MATTER how far the LRC has moved, or any other weapons it may be firing. Sanctuary is legitimately power-gamey.

 

What have us DH lost from 4th? Heavy 4 Rending Assault cannons...woooooo. What have we gained...a whole damn lot considering what should have changed. I'm willing to look on the bright side here, I feel daemonhunters are surprisingly powerful now, even against Codex: Daemons which we were originally thought to be weak against (turns out psycannons kick their ass more than we'd anticipated, and Rites of Exorcism always treats GK as being in cover when charged against daemons).

 

As for Sisters, they now have the most efficient troops unit in the game. 3+ armor at a mere 11 points? Yes please. Exorcist missile launchers can still penetrate AV 14 as well as they could before. Flamers received a tremendous boost in 5th. And sisters STILL have one of the best HQ's in the game.

 

 

As an Inquisition player, I can't really find anything to complain about anymore. The fact that the ancient nature of our codex, and the negligence on GW's part has indeed strengthened our armies is...delightful and will last until we get truly updated codecii. Until then, my 25 point grey knights w/o frags will do, as will my superior force weapons, rites of exorcism, LRC's, sanctuary, and so forth.

 

Despite my mini-rant above about the codex, I happen to agree with you. If codex trumps BBB, that's cool with me. The trouble is dealing with confusion and complaints when playing other people who would rather not have their Eternal Warriors die or would rather not see a LRC fire almost all of its weapons after traveling 12". This should settle down a bit after everyone gets the message. We may want to remind our opponents of the rule differences though. Maybe it would be a good idea for someone to write up a one-page summary of these "gotchas" to have ready with your codex and FAQ?

[boreas]

Yep, stuff like "my" Force Weapon is not like other Force Weapons will make many opponent unhappy... Especially since I (like many others, I beleive) spent a few years trying to justify how our Assault Cannon should be like other assault cannons... I can't see myself, in all honesty, tell my gaming group " Well, you know what, my Assault Cannon is Heavy 3, finally, because I'd rather have my retinue-protected GKGM auto-kill you TMCs and your daemon princes".

 

Phil

[number6]

Yep, stuff like "my" Force Weapon is not like other Force Weapons will make many opponent unhappy... Especially since I (like many others, I beleive) spent a few years trying to justify how our Assault Cannon should be like other assault cannons... I can't see myself, in all honesty, tell my gaming group " Well, you know what, my Assault Cannon is Heavy 3, finally, because I'd rather have my retinue-protected GKGM auto-kill you TMCs and your daemon princes".

 

Phil

This is the crux of the issue in a nutshell. Why should our force weapons and smoke launchers behave so differently from the way the BRB flatly describes their functioning? Is it really fair for us to have an assault cannon that is only heavy 3? or a land raider crusader that can fire it's hurricane bolters non-stop? or force weapons that always kill anything? or smoke launchers that enforce glancing hits?

 

I say not. I say the codex is so broken as to require massive house-ruling to be "fair". Both for us and for our opponents. In my first game with the DH, I remember clearly how my Marine opponent's assault cannons ripped me a new one, and I was like, ":cuss?!" That kind of surprise is NOT FUN. I don't want our smoke-popping tanks and force-weapon-wielding Grand Masters to have the same effect on my opponents.

 

I totally understand the desire play straight up RAW, codex-overrules-BRB. Honestly, it's probably the only real way to play with the DH army nowadays, as any other solution is likely to be too much of a hassle. And who knows what you can expect at a tournament?! Organizers might FAQ things in their own unique ways!

 

But playing plain-Jane DH codex RAW so sticks in my craw ... I can't bring myself to do that. It'd be a complete about-face for me and my long-standing position, personally, as the only player of this codex in my community. More power to the rest of you who are willing to play so strictly by the RAW. I know this is a science fiction game, but still. Consistency! That should count for something. It's extremely disheartening that such consistency means nothing to GW.

 

If it were me, I would say that weapons and wargear with full rules descriptions in the BRB always override codex rules. In all other cases, we let the codex overrule the BRB. The reason being that the overall game rules enforce a certain environment of fairness that is predicated on weapons and wargear working a certain way. Smoke launchers should now provide 4+ cover saves, period. That's fair under 5th edition. Having a few armies make smoke launchers force glancing hits is not fair in 5th edition. Same for force weapons. Force weapons that don't operate as spelled out in the BRB break the fair environment the overall rules set define.

 

Under this scheme, force weapons and smoke launchers behave "normally". But we can still be screwed/benefited by quirks like weak assault cannons and land raider crusader hurricane bolter rules. Those kinds of quirks are easier to accept, negotiate with, and wouldn't unduly unbalance any game.

[jakehunter52]

You are absolutely right number6, it is a simple solution to fix the laden problems through several codexes. And that is what I am going to do for the friendly games w/ people I know. But GW isn't going to do that, for whatever reason you want to pick and so we are left with no other alternative than to play like this in cases of people we don't know or in tournaments. And yeah, we will have nasty surprises because yeah, we do break a lot of rules. We are becoming another Space Wolves. And frankly, I hate this fact, I want to be known as a fair player who you are going to have an enjoyable game w/. But to force it upon me to amend my own codex to keep it balanced is just unjust, GW is not a model company like Citadel was, where we purchase their models so we can use them for whatever we make up. Games Workshop a gaming company and should pay better attention to how their game runs and not use the excuse of "Let the players work it out". I hope we do become broken, that whenever we play a daemon player, we have sanctuary at the ready. I hope that we take GMs every time to kill their unkillable characters. I hope that we stalk up on LRCs and laugh when we reveal that it will take 6 Lascannon shots rolling 5+s to pen and to damage to kill one of them after we pop smoke...assuming that we are not concealed. I hope we can break this codex that anyone who sees us will give us 0 for army comp. Maybe then GW will pay us a little more attention, because that certainly worked for Space Wolves.

[Inquisitor Fox]

Personally I just never let it bug me... I figure, I play 40k for fun and enjoyment.. the mental strategic challenge. The same reason I like chess, or RTS games on the computer, or turn based things like Risk or the Axies & Allies style games (Samurai Swords, anyone?). If I want an army to go out and slaughter people with, I'll break out my Bretonnians. I picked the Inquisition because I wanted to play something Imperial that WASN'T Space Marines (At the time I thought there were way way too many of these) and got to pick a little bit of everything I liked and throw it all together into the same army and just have fun and get to collect and paint neat models. Good strategy usually beats rules lawyering any day, and if someone really needs to compensate for themselves that badly since they can't afford a sports car, I'll let them have it. It says more about them than it does about me *grins* I'd rather be the fun guy that everyone doesn't mind gaming with than the one trying to win at all costs. Then I pack up and go home to my girl and kids, and not let it bug me.

 

It works for me anyway. They'll get around to the Inquisition.. and when they do I'll pick up the new toys that seem neat, and go right on playing and having fun.

 

It's fun getting to decide who the Heretics are and deciding their army needs to burn then doing it based on tactics, not their new shiney toys... that's our job anyway, right? :)

[Gentlemanloser]

I hope we do become broken, that whenever we play a daemon player, we have sanctuary at the ready. I hope that we take GMs every time to kill their unkillable characters.

 

I'm starting to think we're sillily broken versus Daemons. Force Wepaons to kill outright thier ultra scary MCs. Sanctuary from inside a Land Raider (oh man that's silly. The Bubbles Dimensions measured from the Hull of the LR...). And Mystics to foil thier DS.

 

On top of themost accessible weapons to ignore Invulnerable Saves (Psycannons, Psy Bolts, Incinerators and Scourging), is going to land that army in a heap of trouble.

 

I'm really starting to think it's an inherantly unfair match up, and something GW wanted to avoid originally.

 

Oh well, that's what GW gets for not updating thier own rules.

[number6]

It's fun getting to decide who the Heretics are and deciding their army needs to burn then doing it based on tactics, not their new shiney toys... that's our job anyway, right? ;)

This is exactly true. And to some extent, it's how I approach my games, too.

 

That said, after four years of gaming with this army, I am well past weary with the constant negotiations and/or explanations that playing this army necessarily entails. It doesn't matter if it's a lark with my friends or Adepticon (the most competitive tourney I've yet attended), I have to do one or all of the following (depending on the exact environment) just to play the game, each game.

 

* Explain why, playing by RAW, all this stuff doesn't behave as expected

* Remind them of the agreement we made before about what rules I would be using for my equipment

* Point out the FAQ for the event that says that This Equipment works This Way and That Equipment works That Way (Actually, I have to do this for myself, too! It's always different.)

 

I dunno. It just gets old. Yeah, I continue to have fun -- mostly, quite a lot -- but it would be really nice to not have to put on a Rules Lawyer hat every time I play a game. That does take away from the Fun Factor. Hence, the push to start another 40K army. One that is more actively supported and not subject to these issues. :P

[Gentlemanloser]

That said, after four years of gaming with this army, I am well past weary with the constant negotiations and/or explanations that playing this army necessarily entails. It doesn't matter if it's a lark with my friends or Adepticon (the most competitive tourney I've yet attended), I have to do one or all of the following (depending on the exact environment) just to play the game, each game.

 

* Explain why, playing by RAW, all this stuff doesn't behave as expected

* Remind them of the agreement we made before about what rules I would be using for my equipment

* Point out the FAQ for the event that says that This Equipment works This Way and That Equipment works That Way (Actually, I have to do this for myself, too! It's always different.)

 

I dunno. It just gets old. Yeah, I continue to have fun -- mostly, quite a lot -- but it would be really nice to not have to put on a Rules Lawyer hat every time I play a game. That does take away from the Fun Factor. Hence, the push to start another 40K army. One that is more actively supported and not subject to these issues.

 

Too true Number6. It's really getting to me atm. I started playing DH, well GK. I'd heard that they were, difficult, to play/win with, but my friends (all returning form RT era) would have none of it.

 

Then after playing for a while, seeing what worked, what didn't, and seeing how poorly I, with GK rules, performed versus the new Eldar Dex and the old Marine Dex (let alone Orks and Chaos), I got dejected. It wasn't fun, it wasn't competitive. And this isn't coming from a desire to Win over everything, it comes from the desire to have a fun *game*. And being walked over, all the time, just isn't fun.

 

It got to the stage (especially when we were relasing just how borken things like Harlies in Falcons were) where after trying to tourny or max out my lists, just to get a competitive game, my opponents realsied they would have to tone down thier lists just to play me.

 

And that's no fun.

 

It get's to the stage where you have to weigh everything. Is two/three LR in a 1500 list chessy and 'tourny'. You can use one Reaper squad versus marines, but adding more is cheesy and overpowered as the (old) marines had no chance versus the AP3 weapons. Etc etc.

 

Then I have to get rules clarification on *everything*. I had to argue to get Rending 4 A Cannons, and do it in such a fashion I wasn't just trying to 'game' people and be cheesy.

 

Now I've got to, with *everyone* I go to play with, discuss whether I use pure Codex rules (and one hit the Skull Taker to the cries of 'CHEESE' from every Dameon player), or discuss whether I get 3+ Storm Shield. And wheter a list of 10 GKT with 3+ SS and TH is me being 'cheesy' or just trying to justify a unit that for their cost just isn't worth it wthout the durability of a 3+ save.

 

I don't want this any more, and am again (lol) thinking of shelving the DH codex utterly. Not even using allies in othe Parent lists. I want a fun game without having to sit down before every opponent and come to an aggreement of which rule set I'm going to use, and suffer the scrutiny of whether I'm trying to 'game' someone just to have a fun match.

[the jeske]

I want a fun game without having to sit down before every opponent and come to an aggreement of which rule set I'm going to use, and suffer the scrutiny of whether I'm trying to 'game' someone just to have a fun match.

QFT . I have the same problems here . Its ok when you start [like 5/6 people start armies for w40k] and you all know each other real well [and I mean real reall well] then its ok . But in a normal setting it means good 30 min or more explaining how your army works and making choices with what units not to play , because they are problem units [my friend has that with SW and drop pods and I have that problem with BA and rhinos/razorbacks] . In the end you are offten left with an army that you dont like or/and that is played in a way you wouldnt like to play [on in some cases like undivided legions you end up with an army that sucks] . But thats nothing new . When that happens I always unpack my 4ed dwarfs .

[ArmouredWing]

3 Words folks...

 

WATCH THIS SPACE!!!!!

[jakehunter52]

3 Words folks...

 

WATCH THIS SPACE!!!!!

 

??? Sorry, I am a bit thick so I am not getting it.

 

Ditto to all ya'll who posted above, it isn't even about the win above all else, it is about having a fun game. But having fun does entail that you will have a fair chance at the win, the satitifaction that you played your units well and had some (or in alot of cases, none) luck of the dice. And I'll be honest, I play to win, to play my best, to give my best efforts and see how they stack up against someone else. But seems like DH is stuck on hard difficulty and yes, does provide a challenge, it should be a choice, not a requirement. And when it was your first army when you start out the game, like it was for me, it makes you wonder if you should quit, because you are not seeing any kind of reward in being crushed every time you play, to see your entire army wiped out by the 4th turn and see most of his still their's. Sure, some of it you can chalk up to bad tactics, not playing the cover or not giving units enough support, but blaming yourself after a while becomes old and you realize that the army you play is just gimped from the start. I started playing WH because of this, I wanted to learn from my battles, appreciate how they develop as a player and be able to be satisfied in the win. I'm sure that I am going to play my DH again, probably not for a few more months, because I have matured, can leave a table that I was beat badly on but reassured from what I gained in experience from it, can use tactics that I hadn't used before and have a better concept of the game. And I think this time around, I will have more fun playing my DH and maybe I can get as good as you guys. It was a very hard road to come by, one full of mistakes and regrets and not anything I would wish upon anyone else. But now we only have one of two choices, play RAW and appear broken or spend the half hour before the game explaining how things work, should work and negotiate and still get complaints (can't count how many times I've heard grumbles when I bring up shrouding). It's lose lose. I just say, lets do what GW says, simplify it for us and when we want to play friendly matches, we make friendly lists and when we play competitive, let GW reap what it sows. Who knows, maybe if we win a couple of tournies, GW will actually feature us in a White Dwarf again....

[Charred Heretic]

it would be really nice to not have to put on a Rules Lawyer hat every time I play a game. That does take away from the Fun Factor. Hence, the push to start another 40K army. One that is more actively supported and not subject to these issues. ;)

 

/ agree.

These recent changes (for me) are crossing a line of diminishing returns.

I won't be a part of this obviously planned obsolescence.

 

I am going to using the "alliance door" that GW left open to introduce the Inquisition:

I will make a Marine parent army which allies DH and or WH.

(Ironic that the door that was supposed open these armies is the same door that will sustain them from expiration).

 

The Marine parent will give me access to competitive gamepieces (galore), and the allied WH/DH pieces will continue to provide me access to the models and lore that I find so pleasing. I never liked the Exorcist anyway. The P-Engine? Pretty, but you can keep it. If I miss them, I'll go radical WH. All the other heavies are found in the Marine Book, and always will be cheaper and better. (OK. I get it, GW.)

 

I gave away my Marine bits from the Maccrage box.

I will not give away any Marine bits from my Black Reach box.

I will paint them to match my existing DH/WH themes.

 

And yes, on paper, such a list will indeed state that it is a "Marine" list (oh no!), but when you look at my models on the table, it will say "Inquisition Army", (nay it will scream, "Inquisition Army-who-ALLOWS-thes-Marines-to-THINK-they're-running-the-show. Be we all know it's only to gain access to their arsenal." ;)

 

Not only will the Marines wear my Inquisitoral colors, they will bear my flags, insignias, and banners.

Sorry fluff-fans. I know you must find this this offensive to your tastes.

I tried. I really did.

I am tired.

Forgive me.

 

Perhaps it was my destiny to do this when I chose my screen-name.

[- 7eAL -]

Not only will the Marines wear my Inquisitoral colors, they will bear my flags, insignias, and banners.

Sorry fluff-fans. I know you must find this this offensive to your tastes.

I tried. I really did.

I am tired.

Forgive me.

 

Perhaps it was my destiny to do this when I chose my screen-name.

We'll miss you. -Brilliant glow of a power weapon charging-

 

(Come redeem yourself on the Codex Inquisition Project. Heretics are welcome too!)

[Inquisitor Fox]

Not only will the Marines wear my Inquisitoral colors, they will bear my flags, insignias, and banners.

Sorry fluff-fans. I know you must find this this offensive to your tastes.

I tried. I really did.

I am tired.

Forgive me.

 

Perhaps it was my destiny to do this when I chose my screen-name.

Just paint them up as Red Hunters or Exorcists or one of the numerous Space Marine chapters that work with the Inquisition all the time. Flufftastic as well as tournement effective!