CSM Terminators:

[travh20]

I just got my first box of CSM Terminators and was debating as to how to equip them. I know that I am going to give 4 of them regular power weapons and one a PF, but am stuck on what special weapon to give them. I want them to be a CC squad, and a retinue for my lightning clawed termie Lord. I was thinking heavy flamer, but reaper autocannon is interesting me. Anyone have a good reason for one over the other?

 

By the way, I do like the tentacle arm in the sprue, is that there to be used as a power weapon?

[Sons of Horus]

use the heavy flamer. it kills more especially now in 5th ed with all those cover saves.

[Ganuus]

for a CC squad, you may not get the chance to even fire that flamer, but for five points, take it. The reaper is to expensive to only be fired once or twice.

[travh20]

Thanks guys. I will go with the heavy flamer. I like the look of the reaper, but my termies are CC all the way, so I dont plan on sitting back and shooting.

 

Now, about the tentacle arm in the sprue, is that meant to be a counts as power weapon?

[MuGGzy]

The tentacle is meant to be whatever you WANT it to be. If YOU say it's a power weapon/fist, thats what it is. :-P

 

 

I have never used Rare Earth Magnets before but just got a Terminator squad off ebay that had magenets, and I am sold on the idea now. I recomend just magnetizing the flamer and reaper and then you can put whichever on you want.

[minigun762]

Agree that Heavy Flamer is the way to go.

The only thing I can think of for using the Reaper would be a small 3 man squad. 3 Terminators with a Reaper and maybe 2 Combi-Plasmas.

[travh20]

SO now that i have my CSM termie lord and termie retinue, I can bring them in by deep strike within 6" of any squad with any type of Icon right? Not just personel icon?

[Xenocidal Maniac]

I actually recommend the reaper if you have a choice between the two...

 

Deep striking them in a position to hit side or rear armor, you can really do some damage and "make its points back" fast. I like using 3 man squads with reapers against tank heavy Tau, Eldar, etc. Even if you don't do a lot of damage, you have just deepstruck a major thorn in your opponent's side that cannot be ignored.

 

But, the best idea is to magnetize both the flamer and reaper arms so you can pick and choose. That's what I did. But it does require you to bitz order or trade for an additional shoulder pad.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Deep striking them in a position to hit side or rear armor, you can really do some damage and "make its points back" fast. I like using 3 man squads with reapers against tank heavy Tau, Eldar, etc. Even if you don't do a lot of damage, you have just deepstruck a major thorn in your opponent's side that cannot be ignored.

 

I disagree. The reaper is very easy to ignore, and a 3 man squad with one is an easy kill and is not points efficient. If you are going to use a suicide terminator squad do it with 3 combi meltas to make sure they pop something.

[robertsjf]

A little ot but can I recommend a chainfist instead of the powerfist? Better vs armor....

[Xenocidal Maniac]

Deep striking them in a position to hit side or rear armor, you can really do some damage and "make its points back" fast. I like using 3 man squads with reapers against tank heavy Tau, Eldar, etc. Even if you don't do a lot of damage, you have just deepstruck a major thorn in your opponent's side that cannot be ignored.

 

I disagree. The reaper is very easy to ignore, and a 3 man squad with one is an easy kill and is not points efficient. If you are going to use a suicide terminator squad do it with 3 combi meltas to make sure they pop something.

 

I disagree with your disagreement! B) Have you ever tried this tactic? I do it all the time and swear by it. A little 3 man throw-away termie squad is excellent and is points efficient in the extreme. I almost always pop or disable a tank, and, to date, I have not had a single opponent ignore this squad in their subsequent turn... hence the impossible to ignore statement. Unless you get lucky, you have to throw a ton of fire at this little nothing squad to get rid of it. And that's firepower that is not going towards my Berzerkers, Raptors, and DP.

 

And yes, I do give the other two termies combi-meltas, but your advice to give all three of them combi-meltas suggests that you are maybe a bit overconfident in your scatter dice rolling ability! :P

 

In any case, the OP's question was whether the Reaper was better than a Heavy Flamer and that's my answer. I just have never caught myself thinking "wow, thank God I took this Heavy Flamer in this Termie squad..." whereas the Reaper has done a lot for me.

[travh20]

The tentacle is meant to be whatever you WANT it to be. If YOU say it's a power weapon/fist, thats what it is. :-P

 

 

That is cool. I can model one with the tentacle then I can change it to whatever I want on a game by game basis. Wish I had more then one tentacle now.

[doctor_wu]

Oh well anyway the heavy flamer its a great gun and is cheaper. The reaper autocannon is not really worth all of those points. If you want autocannons take havocs.

[dreamsofmishra]

Well then ultimately it depends on what you're gonna use your squad for. If its there to distract and harass in a corner, then getting a Reaper will let your (3-man?) squad sit there and attract attention.. If you're planning to assault a lot with your squads, then no point spending all those points on a long-range shooting gun when you can simply get a cheap heavy flamer. even if you fire the flamer once in the whole game, its still well-spent compared to 2 rounds of reaper fire in between close combats.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I disagree with your disagreement! Have you ever tried this tactic? I do it all the time and swear by it. A little 3 man throw-away termie squad is excellent and is points efficient in the extreme. I almost always pop or disable a tank, and, to date, I have not had a single opponent ignore this squad in their subsequent turn... hence the impossible to ignore statement. Unless you get lucky, you have to throw a ton of fire at this little nothing squad to get rid of it. And that's firepower that is not going towards my Berzerkers, Raptors, and DP.

 

Let me present some numbers: 3 man terminator squad with reaper and 2 combi melta = 125 points. Against the targets you suggested in your original post you are shooting at armors between 10 and 12, so i'll average it to 11. Reaper has 2 shots that are strength 7 and twin linked. I'm going to make this comparison rounding in the reapers favor. So lets say on average both shots hit, since it is twin linked after all. Against armor 11 you glance on 4's and penetrate on 5+. So a third penetrate, and 1/6th glance for a total of half doing damage. So out of 2 shots, one will score a result. Again lets be kind to the reaper, and say its a pen. A third of the time that 1 shot will destroy the tank. Of course, half the time the tank will probably have cover (all the time if its tau). So you have a 1 in 6 chance of destroying an armor 11 target with a reaper, with all rounding in favor of the reaper. Seeing that most of the vehicles you mentioned are significantly cheaper than the terminator squad, 1 in 6 is a fairly poor ratio. You do have the two combi meltas that help things out, but thats the combi meltas being good not the reaper. If you get really good luck and it always works out for you thats great. I present these numbers merely because what you are saying is purely anecdotal evidence.

[the jeske]

but 3 man termi squads are just there as a meta choice against LR and mc. to put as many wounds on opponent lashers as possible etc . its easier to take down rhinos with oblits . also if someone is using something else [this means preds or razorz or whirlies] its better to load up on combi plasma [thats if your opponent doesnt run LR] as the more shots at rapid fire range are enough .

 

but all in all yeah reaper sucks[pts cost to shot ratio and the fact you need 10 termis to get a second one , what franklly makes no sense] and hvy flamers are hard to use because chaos termis arent made to do hth . stay with the combis and 3/4 man squads .

[Xenocidal Maniac]

I disagree with your disagreement! Have you ever tried this tactic? I do it all the time and swear by it. A little 3 man throw-away termie squad is excellent and is points efficient in the extreme. I almost always pop or disable a tank, and, to date, I have not had a single opponent ignore this squad in their subsequent turn... hence the impossible to ignore statement. Unless you get lucky, you have to throw a ton of fire at this little nothing squad to get rid of it. And that's firepower that is not going towards my Berzerkers, Raptors, and DP.

 

Let me present some numbers: 3 man terminator squad with reaper and 2 combi melta = 125 points. Against the targets you suggested in your original post you are shooting at armors between 10 and 12, so i'll average it to 11. Reaper has 2 shots that are strength 7 and twin linked. I'm going to make this comparison rounding in the reapers favor. So lets say on average both shots hit, since it is twin linked after all. Against armor 11 you glance on 4's and penetrate on 5+. So a third penetrate, and 1/6th glance for a total of half doing damage. So out of 2 shots, one will score a result. Again lets be kind to the reaper, and say its a pen. A third of the time that 1 shot will destroy the tank. Of course, half the time the tank will probably have cover (all the time if its tau). So you have a 1 in 6 chance of destroying an armor 11 target with a reaper, with all rounding in favor of the reaper. Seeing that most of the vehicles you mentioned are significantly cheaper than the terminator squad, 1 in 6 is a fairly poor ratio. You do have the two combi meltas that help things out, but thats the combi meltas being good not the reaper. If you get really good luck and it always works out for you thats great. I present these numbers merely because what you are saying is purely anecdotal evidence.

 

Mmkay, you can throw out all the numbers you like, and you may be right about them, but you're not really addressing my other points. Such as the psychological effect of suddenly having three deadly mofos who can potentially take down your tanks, beat you in close combat, and generally screw things up right in your face. The reaper adds that (potential, as you pointed out) anti-tank element to the squad that makes it very hard to ignore.

 

Ah well in any case, I was gonna write a bunch more, but I'm tired and don't think I am going to change your mind here, so I think we'll just agree to disagree.

 

And I actually never thought I would say this, but I basically agree with the jeske's assessment. The reaper is overpriced and the flamer is next to useless because you hardly ever get to use it, so just pass on them both, really. I guess my opinion actually is that the reaper is simply *less worthless* than the flamer and when I am playing to win I leave both of them at home. But the OP's question was which was better so there it was.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Oh, i wasn't disagreeing about the termies other effects. I just think the flamer is better for the job because if it hits infantry stuff dies.

[the jeske]

The reaper adds that (potential, as you pointed out) anti-tank element to the squad that makes it very hard to ignore.

but in a 2k army lists [as in a 1850 you cant fint 3 termi squads] taking 3 reapers takes away one oblit , or two rhinos or half a 5 man raptor squad.[meaning now you have to find where to put the rest and its hard to an optimal choice]. also it totally breaks up a 1850 pts army as takes away almost half the oblit you get .

 

 

flamer has a better kill ratio , when it actually gets to shot at something . but sometimes its hard to get a clear shot . personally I go with only combis unless someone plays something like 1900pts armies there is just no pts for a reaper.

[Tfcdogbert]

I must agree with Jeske, ive seen reapers used and ive never seen them do anything that consistantly makes up the points, the problem is that for a reaper you get 5 combi plasmas, that is worth far more against most enemy armies than 2 reaper shots a turn, terminators shouldnt really be long term shooting units.

 

As you want a close combat unit then the heavy flamer is really a better choice than the autocannon, its cheaper so the games where it might do nothing are less of a loss, and it is capable of huge damage output.

[Sons of Horus]

why use a reaper then deepstrike? by deepstriking you are near enough to assault so the reaper ends up being a big waste of points.

[Kushan Blackrazor]

If I'm teleporting, Reaper all the way. Heavy flamer anytime I'm coming out of a Land Raider. Simple enough for me. :(

[minigun762]

To be honestly, I want to play with the Reaper sometimes and so I'm trying to think of a the best way to incorporate it into the army. The only other unit that carries it is the Defiler and lets face it, the Battle Cannon is much more impressive.

 

I think a naked 3 man squad with a Reaper is viable. Especially if you're already using a few of the Combi-Melta squads, you might run out of good targets to use them on. The Reaper squad basically gives you a weird Dakka Predator equivalent thats weaker and more expensive but can assault things and is usually more durable to incoming fire.

 

Its not optimal by any means but its not total poop.