Aidoneus Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Allies are a big part of what makes the DH codex special, giving us near-infinite army variations to play with. Having said that, this is something I really want to do right. This will be a huge part of the overall success of the Fixing Daemonhunters project. Remember, one of the major tenets of this project is the principle of Minimalism. We are merely updating, not rewriting the codex. So whatever changes we make, we need to make sure they violate neither the style nor the balance of the original codex. That being said, we also need to keep in mind that a lot has changed since our codex came out, particularly with regards to Space Marines and IG. We also need to be aware of the developers' intent behind the allies rules, and try to capture that intent as much as anything else. First off, no matter what, we are going to include the ally-able units in our codex, rather than keeping references to other codices. This will make the entire system make a lot more sense, and will keep players from having to purchase multiple codices to play their army. Second, enough of this "inducted" vs. "allied" nonsense. We're inducting space marines from now on. "Allies" will refer solely to DH units taken in other base lists. So, my suggestion is to basically just update the references, while changing them from references to other codices and instead just adding the units to our codex. Additionally, I'm getting rid of all of those 0-1 restrictions, as they basically don't exist in modern codices. Lastly, even though they're in our codex, Inducted units will not be eligible to ally-in to other imperial armies when they take DH allies. Here's the full list of proposed changes: HQ: No inducted units Elites: Add IG Storm Troopers, renamed as "Inquisitorial Special Ops Teams" ---No restrictions (note, these will not count as inducted IG) Troops: Inducted IG Infantry Platoon ---No special characters allowed Inducted IG Veteran Squad ---No special character allowed Inducted SM Tactical Squad ---May not be taken in an army including either inducted IG or Grey Knights Inducted SM Scout Squad ---May not be taken in an army including either inducted IG or Grey Knights Fast Attack: Valkyrie Assault Carrier Squadron ---No restrictions (note, these will not count as inducted IG) Inducted IG Rough Riders ---May only be taken if at least one Inducted IG Platoon is present ---No special characters allowed Inducted Scout Sentinel Squadron ---May only be taken if at least one Inducted IG Platoon is present Inducted Armoured Sentinel Squadron ---May only be taken if at least one Inducted IG Platoon is present Inducted Vendetta Gunship Squadron ---May only be taken if at least one Inducted IG Platoon is present Inducted SM Assault Squad ---May not be taken in an army including either inducted IG or Grey Knights ---May only be taken if at least two Inducted SM Troops units are present Inducted SM Land Speeder Squadron ---May not be taken in an army including either inducted IG or Grey Knights ---May only be taken if at least two Inducted SM Troops units are present Inducted SM Bike Squad ---May not be taken in an army including either inducted IG or Grey Knights ---May only be taken if at least two Inducted SM Troops units are present Inducted SM Land Speeder Storm ---May not be taken in an army including either inducted IG or Grey Knights ---May only be taken if at least two Inducted SM Troops units are present Heavy Support: Inducted Leman Russ Battle Tank ---One tank per squadron ---May only be taken if at least one Inducted IG Platoon is present Inducted SM Devestator Squad ---May not be taken in an army including either inducted IG or Grey Knights ---May only be taken if at least two Inducted SM Troops units are present Inducted SM Land Raider ---May not be taken in an army including either inducted IG or Grey Knights ---May only be taken if at least two Inducted SM Troops units are present Inducted SM Predator ---May not be taken in an army including either inducted IG or Grey Knights ---May only be taken if at least two Inducted SM Troops units are present Inducted SM Dreadnought ---May not be taken in an army including either inducted IG or Grey Knights ---May only be taken if at least two Inducted SM Troops units are present Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrath Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 For those vehicles taken from the IG codex but not counting as Inducted, will they have access to the special DH vehicle upgrades? After all, they are effectively standard issue DH equipment now, since they are in the codex and are not Inducted units. I will definitely say that I am very glad that you are keeping IST seperate from the ISOT troops (hellguns instead of hot-shot lasguns, etc.). The latter strike me as being far more heavily specialized toward close-quarters anti-heavy infantry work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidoneus Posted June 9, 2009 Author Share Posted June 9, 2009 Ah yes, good point. The units that do not count as inducted (Special Ops and Valkyries) will have access to the DH armoury. In the case of the Special Ops, this will replace their sgt's upgrade options (actually, it will just expand them). When I actually add these changes in to the main project, I'll have to go into more detail than what I outlined above. Thanks for catching that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karitas Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 What about embracing the options in the FW imperial armour 2 for imperial heavy support options beyond the russ? i mean if we're having the valk in there, might as well have the rest, right? :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidoneus Posted June 9, 2009 Author Share Posted June 9, 2009 I'm not sure I understand the suggestion. Are you referring to the actual IA:2 book, or the free IA:2 update? Because I'm only familiar with the update. There, it lists every vehicle as able to be taken on in certain armies, and most of them are just for Space Marines (or blood angels or dark angels). Of the stuff for the daemonhunters, all I can see that hasn't been included is the land raider prometheus, as as that's a forgeworld-only model it seems best that we leave it out. At any rate, those aren't exactly allies. Perhaps I'm not understanding what you were really asking. Care to clarify? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrath Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Here's another question. Can our IST-driven tanks get BS4? It always struck me as wrong that our Inquisitors are running around with access to the best tech in the Imperium, with dedicated, loyal, and highly trained private armies hardened against Daemonic corruption, and yet they can't find anyone better than a standard IG grunt to drive their vehicles around. I'd be more than happy to see a points increase in vehicle costs for non-allied vehicles to have them be crewed by IST-equivalents (ie, BS4). Leave all Inducted vehicles at their CIG statlines, by all means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidoneus Posted June 10, 2009 Author Share Posted June 10, 2009 I worry about changing the stats of existing units (that exist in other codices, that is). Chimeras are always, and have always been, BS 3. I know it's annoying, but I wouldn't feel comfortable messing with that. Couple things I was talking with a friend about: 1) Going to add a Valkyrie as a dedicated transport for an Inquisitorial Retinue, in addition to the squadrons in Fast Attack 2) Looking at the 'Ard Boyz allies list (posted in DH "Gotcha" FAQ), we should discuss including Scout Bikers as allies. Otherwise, my list looks remarkably similar to that one. 3) IST special weapons prices are changing to match current costs, meaning 5pt flamers and 15pt plasma (they are, after all, BS4 with a 4+ save). I think that was all of it. I'll let you know if I recall any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karitas Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 In IA:2 at the end of the chimera entry it lists other vehicles than can be induced and how, such as the salamander and cyclops as fast attack; thunderer and medusa as heavy support and so on. That's what I meant, but as I read in your post you feel it's best to leave out FW only models, i guess that writes these off, as that's what they are. It does however go on to mention all the russ variants and various flyers, which i think include the gunship variant of the new valk (which could clear that up at least), but i could be wrong as i dont have the book in front of me (at work) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidoneus Posted June 18, 2009 Author Share Posted June 18, 2009 No activity in the past few days, so I wanted to check in and see why. Can I assume from your silence that my proposed changes are all good as-is? Please give me some feedback, even if it's just a, "looks good," or " :P " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
templargdt Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Seems good to me, except that the 'Ard Boyz rules set allows a guard tank squadron, shouldn't the updated codex allow squadrons as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidoneus Posted June 19, 2009 Author Share Posted June 19, 2009 Seems good to me, except that the 'Ard Boyz rules set allows a guard tank squadron, shouldn't the updated codex allow squadrons as well? While this is true, my rules allow the DH player to ally-in all 3 heavy support slots, rather than just the 1 the the codex, and 'ard boyz, allows. So that balances it out, I think. That was the idea, at any rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Lost Soldier Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 It's a nice and simply translation of the ally rules. I like it. Much easier than the confusing mess we have at the moment. I'm curious why you reduced the Guard troops requirement but left the Marine requirements the same. Also will we be sticking to the basic 'Russ and 'Raider, or will we be allowing the variants? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidoneus Posted June 23, 2009 Author Share Posted June 23, 2009 Oh yeah, that. I'm willing to change that, and at any rate would like to hear people's opinions on it. My thinking was that a single platoon consists of at least 3 squads, potentially several more, whereas a space marine squad is, well, just one squad. It made sense to me that a platoon of several squads would represent enough IG presence to justify the support vehicles, whereas with space marines it seemed like a single tac squad wasn't enough to justify the support vehicles. Of course, the counter-argument is that a cheap platoon costs about as much as a tac squad, and so letting the IG get away with just the 1 platoon isn't fair to the marines. Also, it forces the IG to take a platoon, rather than 2 vet squads, as was popular before with armoured fists. So there're the pros and cons. What seems fair to all of you? For the variants, I was going to leave it as-is, because the writers had it that way for a reason, and minimalism says we should keep it that way (another argument against my changing the pre-req to a single platoon, by the way). But I'd certainly be willing to hear people's arguments as to why we should allow variant vehicles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozybonza Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 I'd say yes to LR variants as they now come under a single heading in the IG codex, and are essentially an "upgrade" (well kinda) to a normal LR, rather than an entirely different tank. I also like only having a minumim of one platoon as otherwise it starts to look like an IG army with DH allies, rather than the other way around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadCowCrazy Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 I wish these were the official rules but alas they are not :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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