Flamers from rhino hatches?

[Vince Black]

I had been using a fiarly effective tactic, against nids particularly, where I run a rhino and have a marine with a flamer skirt the weak flanks of guants in order to protect my flanks. Anyhow a friend I was fighting declared that I couldn't use this tactic because the flamer template is not allowed to touch any part of your own squad and that the back of the template would be touching the edge of the transports hull... I mean isnt the flamer just long enough to keep the fire from ?

 

My question is if this is a legal tactic or if my friend is correct and I am unable to fire from the firing point?

[Captain of The Inceptors]

My understanding is that any models firing from a rhino fire from the hull.

[Coyote]

..Anyhow a friend I was fighting declared that I couldn't use this tactic because the flamer template is not allowed to touch any part of your own squad and that the back of the template would be touching the edge of the transports hull... I mean isnt the flamer just long enough to keep the fire from ?

 

My question is if this is a legal tactic or if my friend is correct and I am unable to fire from the firing point?

Rules Lawyering, FTW!!! My solution? Find a new friend. This one's raking you over the coals.

[OwlandMoonGuy]

Only in the case of Open Topped vehicles do you measure from the hull, BRB pg. 70. For enclosed transports, you always measure from the Fire Point, pg 66, under Fire Points, “Ranges & Line of sight are measured from the fire point itself.”

 

So it is true, the initial position of the template often times will overlap a bit of the transport vehicle. The Template rules are found on pg. 29, “Instead of rolling to hit, simply place the template so that its narrow end is touching the base of the model firing it and the rest of the template covers as many models as possible in the target unit without touching any friendly models.”

 

So in this case, shooting form enclosed transports is already requires some special consideration because the firing model’s base is replaced by the fire point on the transport. So I suppose you could be a real RAW Nazi and claim that templates cannot be fired from FP’s because of the friendly model restriction. Still, the more obvious treatment is to discount the ½“ of overlapping hull and work out the hits accordingly.

 

That’s my take on it. Does anyone know of any rules that may make this clearer?

 

-OMG

[Vince Black]

Thanks for the input, I thought it was a bit excessive so ill discuss it.

[Isiah]

This issue has come up before. By RAW no he can't fire because he'd be breaking the template rules.

 

The consensus last time around: use the template from the hull, or, just ignore the bit about covering friendly models :D. All in all not very satisfactory.

 

Cheers

I

[DarkPrincess]

I thought when the top hatches of the rhino were opened it counted as open topped, and thus the flamer would go from the hull?

[Grey Mage]

Thats old rules... new ones make no mention of being open topped- and as I recall it wasnt open topped when you had power armor in it... as a 3+ armor save is apparently invulnerable to lasguns :P.

[angronn]

This issue has come up before. By RAW no he can't fire because he'd be breaking the template rules.

 

The consensus last time around: use the template from the hull, or, just ignore the bit about covering friendly models :D . All in all not very satisfactory.

 

Cheers

I

 

This problem also applies to Heavy Flamer equipped Razorbacks, who by the same strict RAW are unable to use their weapons at all. Brilliant.

[Grey Mage]

And potentially it applies to marines... as they could cover there own base if you dont model them carefully.

 

The entire idea is a wash.... and is best houseruled by saying that the model the template is placed from doesnt count towards the covering of friendly bases.

[jeffersonian000]

The problem that keeps popping up is that people seem to want to count the Rhino is a friendly model, when in fact it’s the firing model as all attacks from fire points are treat as if the attacks originated from the vehicle while still following the rules set forth for passenger fired weapons. No were in the rules does it advise that the model hits itself when firing a template weapon. As such, place the template as directed, figure out hits from the enemy models covered (as you cannot cover a friendly model), and go on from there.

 

If you just work it out without confusing the firer with friendlies, then all of these situations resolve themselves.

 

SJ

[angronn]

And potentially it applies to marines... as they could cover there own base if you dont model them carefully.

 

The entire idea is a wash.... and is best houseruled by saying that the model the template is placed from doesnt count towards the covering of friendly bases.

 

It can't apply to infantry, as you place the template against the base, not against the weapon.

 

Jeffersonian, I like the cut of your giblets. I feel that could work as an interpretation, although bear in mind that precedence IS set for hitting yourself with blast weapons, so if a rules-lawyer REALLY wanted to reach they could perhaps point to that (although I think the unintentional scatter argument would probably kill that one).

[Ming]

IIRR the resolution for these template shots (flamers) is that all come from the edge of the HULL. Ignore the hatches for transported infantry / fire poijts. I believe I actually saw that in print somewhere in the BRB for templates and infantry firing from Vehicles...and as JJ would say, just play the game. Anybody trying to keep ypou from using a template weapon mounted on a vehicle or carried by the transported infantry should be smacked with a dice first and questioned later.

[jeffersonian000]

And potentially it applies to marines... as they could cover there own base if you dont model them carefully.

 

The entire idea is a wash.... and is best houseruled by saying that the model the template is placed from doesnt count towards the covering of friendly bases.

 

It can't apply to infantry, as you place the template against the base, not against the weapon.

 

Jeffersonian, I like the cut of your giblets. I feel that could work as an interpretation, although bear in mind that precedence IS set for hitting yourself with blast weapons, so if a rules-lawyer REALLY wanted to reach they could perhaps point to that (although I think the unintentional scatter argument would probably kill that one).

 

Except that Template weapons are not blast weapons, and follow different rules for placement. No where in the rules is it mentioned that the firer is "friendly" to their own fire, and Template weapon have specific rules against placement over friendly units while Blast weapons have no such restriction as scatter can cause friendlies to be hit. Quite simply, follow the rules for each weapon in each situation as it occurs rather than comparing like systems to find problems.

 

SJ

[Isiah]

Anybody trying to keep ypou from using a template weapon mounted on a vehicle or carried by the transported infantry should be smacked with a dice first and questioned later.

 

That might or might not be good advice. But as an Official Rules forum, and as it is official rules that flamer templates can't cover friendly models this is always going to be an issue that gets pulled out :confused:.

 

Anyway a clarification by GW would set the record straight 'officially' rather than resorting to workarounds already mentioned (the introduction of common sense) or, err, hitting people with dice!!

 

Of course – there is always the dreaded "dice for it" option, that always leaves no one feeling satisfied.

 

Cheers

I

[Coyote]

I still say that my solution is better and easier: Get a new friend. I mean, what good are your friends if you can't use them? :devil:

[ArmouredWing]

This issue has come up before. By RAW no he can't fire because he'd be breaking the template rules.

 

The consensus last time around: use the template from the hull, or, just ignore the bit about covering friendly models :devil: . All in all not very satisfactory.

 

Cheers

I

 

This problem also applies to Heavy Flamer equipped Razorbacks, who by the same strict RAW are unable to use their weapons at all. Brilliant.

...and even more so for immolators.

[gdeathlegion]

Warhammer 40k is a game based in a 3-dimensional space, not a 2-dimensional top-down nazi party. I would argue that the fire point counts like a vehicle weapon mount. Just because the template must shot from the fire point doesn't mean it needs to melt a line down the side of the rhino. If you had a model physically poking out of the top to fire the weapon, would that change anything?

 

I couldn't find anything in the BRB or C:SM to defend the awesome rhino flamer showers, I'm just glad that my game club isn't a bunch of whiny idiots.

 

Has anyone checked a GW FAQ for this?

[gdeathlegion]

Ok, I checked it and there is nothing to clarify this one.

[nighthawks]

templates function in 2D, sans special rules like those for ruins.

 

that said - the template rules are not compatible with the vehicle shooting rules which have us measure (place template) from the muzzle of the weapon. well, they are, unless that weapon doesn't clear the hull as in the case of the rhino with TLHF, immolator, etc... in which case every reasonable person I have discussed it with (and nearly unanimous opinion from what I have read here) is to ignore the portion of the template that would "hit" the vehicle upon which the weapon (or transported model firing) is mounted.

[jeffersonian000]

I will state again that the firing model is not "friendly" to itself and therefore cannot hit itself with a flamer template per the BRB rules covering template placement when applied to a vehicle firing a weapon and passengers firing weapons from vehicles. The goal should not be finding reasons things don't work, but to determine how things work when applying rules to the situation at hand.

 

Heavy-flamer Immolators, heavy-flamer Razorbacks, and Imperial Guard heavy-flamer vehicle upgrades all have the same issue regarding template placement if we ignore the fact that a model is neither friendly nor an enemy to itself. It's only when we use those terms to describe a model versus its own weapons fire that problems occur. So don't; the problem goes away because it never existed at all.

 

SJ

[gdeathlegion]

The problem doesn't arise from classifying the Rhino as "friendly or un-friendly", every model you control during a game of 40k is considered a friendly model. The problem arises from a lack of clarification in the rules.

 

If you can fire a plasma gun or a melta gun out of a rhino, you should damn-well be able to fire a flamer.

 

But, since there are no facts or rules to even base an argument on, I would say agree to something with your opponent.

Everyone in my game club allows the template to be fired from the top hatch, as described in the passenger firing rules.

It's not like a strength 4 flamer could even damage a rhino anyways. hehehe ;)

[brakkar]

This seems pretty simple to me. If you can physically mount say a razorback turrent with a heavy flamer on it and fire off the rhino there is no logical explanation why you couldn't with a flamer from a model at a fire point.

 

Therefore as stated farther up, i would get a new opponent who doesn't try to shoot down all the rules to his own benefit.

 

failing the ability to pick and choose who you play against you can do one of two things.

 

Play the rules lawyer routine yourself to his detriment when he tries to do something questionable. or

 

Roll off 123 you can't 456 you can.

[Coyote]

Roll off: 123 - Beat him over the head with the Apocalypse book until he repents his heresy; 456 - Use the BRB (hardcover) instead.

[brakkar]

Roll off: 123 - Beat him over the head with the Apocalypse book until he repents his heresy; 456 - Use the BRB (hardcover) instead.

 

lol exactly. wash, rinse and repeat until your opponent realizes that this is a game and is supposed to be fun and not a hassle that lasts 2-3 more hours than it needs to because he wants to be a lawyer and didn't go to school for it.