The Thousand Marine Myth - corrections?, Scouts are not marines Options

[Philip S]

Hello one and all,

This may be picky, but for this article I think it is appropriate.

I noticed in the article on the 'The Thousand Marine Myth' that scouts were included in the calculation. I think this is incorrect.

If we also assume 100 scouts

Scouts are not full battle brothers, they do not have the Black Carapace, and can not wear power armour.

Scouts are marines in training. They are about as 'marine' as a marine recruits in the US marines - just because the Space Marines boot camp includes a battlefield does not make Space Marine Scouts actual Space Marines, no more that marine recruits are marines (having 'marine' on the front does not make them a marine, the same is for the Space Marine Scouts (i.e. Space Marine recruits))

Therefore they can not count towards the 1,000 marine limit - because they are not marines.

I know having an army's scouts as recruits is a bit crazy, but the Space Marines do not really need scouts, so it's not are crazy as it first seems. It seems to me that the scout position is more like a form of hazing/ bulling to test the neophytes rather than an integral part of chapter operations. It's similar to street gangs kicking the crap out of new members or fraternities hazing new members (and in some cases kicking the crap out of them!). Space Marines may have the 'noble knight' image these days, but deep down they are a warrior brotherhood.

I can see it now;

'Oi you!'
Marine points at a scout
'go up and scout that ridge'
The rest of the marine snigger in the background

I think scouts are more like 'bait'. If they survive they have got to be tough right?

Philip

PS: Edit, I added a question mark to the thread title - an attempt to my my intent clearer.

This post has been edited by Philip S: Nov 12 2009, 12:41 PM

[Mikal Wolfheart]

Well I find it amusing that scouts are recruits yet they happen to be the ones to board nid infested space hulks, what?

[Philip S]

Well I find it amusing that scouts are recruits yet they happen to be the ones to board nid infested space hulks, what?

I find it amusing too (but I suspect for different reasons!)

The marines are super tough, and getting to be a marine means you have to prove yourself capable of being a marine, and what better way than to storm a 'nid infested hulk? Great way to earn you chops!

Scouts are neophytes, they have not completed their transformation, says so in the 'dex.

Source: @dex page 11
As a neophyte nears the end of his training, but before he can become a full battle brother, he is inducted into the Scout Company to earn the right to wear blessed power armour and demonstrate in the fires of battle that he is ready for the final stage of his transformation - the implantation of the Black Carapace

I think this quote covers all the points of, and backs up, my argument.

• Scouts are still neophytes.
• Scouts are not full battle brothers.
• Scouts have not completed their transformation.
• Being a Scout is a way to earn the right to complete the transformation.
• The transformation process ends with the implantation of the Black Carapace

The Black Carapace is the mark of a marine; no Black Carapace = not a marine.



Philip

[Grey Mage]

Scouts are not full battle brothers, they do not have the Black Carapace, and can not wear power armour.
Therefore they can not count towards the 1,000 marine limit - because they are not marines.

Umm.... got a source for that?

Because I dunno about you, but in my chapter, initiates dont see battle until theyve gotten their implants- lots of training, but we dont send them into battle so under prepared.

Thatd be completely moronic, and a waste of valuable resources.

So yes, my GC includes 43 Bloodclaws- and the Ultramarines have about 100 scouts included in their chapter. In fact, its even in C:SM .

This post has been edited by Grey Mage: Nov 10 2009, 09:40 AM

[Brother Santios]

In the Blood Angels scouts are an elites choice sharing the same stats less armour save as a full marine ... surely then they are picked for this role?

What about sgts who serve with scout squads ? by your reckoning the 10 (assuming 10x10 man squads) wouldnt count ?!?!

[Philip S]

Umm.... got a source for that?

Yes, I quoted the source '@dex Page 11' - i.e. Space Marine Codex Page 11.

Philip

This post has been edited by Philip S: Nov 10 2009, 09:49 AM

[Spacefrisian]

Spacewolves scouts do have the Black carapace and are full marines.

[Philip S]

Spacewolves scouts do have the Black carapace and are full marines.

The Space Wolves are an exception in this regard.

The point is moot as the Space Wolves are not a codex chapter (12 Great Companies, and the 13th off and running amok), and are generally thought to ignore the 1,000 limit.

Why would a non codex chapter be bound by the codex's 1,000 limit?

Philip

This post has been edited by Philip S: Nov 10 2009, 10:01 AM

[Vash113]

I fail to see the point to be honest. So what if Scouts aren't full Battle Brothers. They have most of the implants. In most Chapters Scouts are only missing the Black Carapace and in all other ways are physically full Space Marines. Just because they have not achieved the rank and position of a full battle brother does not mean they are not included in the strength of a Chapter, or that they don't qualify as Space Marines. They certainly aren't your average humans anymore.

Nevertheless it's a strange and very nit picky thing to fuss about, involving barely a fraction of a Chapters strength as discussed in the article. Not to mention such a comment about a Librarium article would be better placed in the Librarium... or even simply put in a PM to the author. I can't tell what you're trying to achieve with this thread honestly.

[Philip S]

I fail to see the point to be honest.

The point is that scouts are neophytes, and neophytes are not marines, and hence do not count towards the 1,000 marine limit.

And close to finishing is not enough, you can not pass or fail an exam while you are still sitting it!

Nevertheless it's a strange and very nit picky thing to fuss about

Sure is - us fanboi's are like that

Not to mention such a comment about a Librarium article would be better placed in the Librarium...

I couldn't see a way to comment on an article.

or even simply put in a PM to the author.

I like to discuss things out in the open and to gather feedback from many view points, to argue the point against many people, and correct myself if needed - I like 'open'.

This is my view, I think it is backed up by the codex and evidence, and for an article about myths of 1,000 chapters I think it should cover all bases. Even subtracting 100 scouts from the total put it over 1,000 so the article is still valid.

However there are other aspects within the article I do not agree with, but they are subjective judgements, and hence no thread (yet )

Philip

This post has been edited by Philip S: Nov 10 2009, 11:07 AM

[Brother Tyler]

Scouts are not full battle brothers, they do not have the Black Carapace, and can not wear power armour.
Therefore they can not count towards the 1,000 marine limit - because they are not marines.

Umm.... got a source for that?

The source would be the official background material that Games Workshop has posted.

Yes, there are exceptions. The Blood Angels are not among those. The placement of Scouts for that Chapter, like the Dark Angels, is based on a process derived from rules theories. Likewise, the stat lines are based on the old stat lines for Scouts, which Codex Chapters had up until the current edition. The background behind those Chapters' Scouts, however, is the same as for the Codex Chapters (and players of those Chapters should expect to see their Scouts brought in line with the Codex Chapters whenever their rules get revised). The Space Wolves are the only official exception that I know of. Their Scouts are truly elite members of the Chapter, no the aspirants that pretty much every other Chapter has.

And of course, players can do whatever they want with their own homegrown Chapters.

I think that the main premise is flawed, though. The Scouts are counted as part of that "1,000 Marine Myth".

The count of 1,000 Marines is based on one thing and one thing alone - the squads in each of the ten companies of a Chapter. The assumption is that there are ten companies, and that each company is composed of ten squads, and that each squad is composed of ten members.

Obviously, it's risky to include the Scouts because, as Games Workshop has long said in multiple publications, the actual number of scouts and scout squads isn't as rigid as in the other companies.

As far as the premise of Scouts going through some form of hazing, I think that there is some degree of that. The novel Space Marine certainly portrayed some degree of this. But I think that the training that Scouts undergo includes elements that go far beyond simple hazing. The Scouts' bodies and minds have to adjust to the changes their bodies undergo as they transform from an exceptional human being into a superhuman battle-brother; they must assimilate the warrior cult of the Chapter; they must learn all of the skills of war; etc. Yes, there is probably some degree of a "survival of the fittest" aspect to Scouts becoming full battle-brothers, but true survival in war isn't just about being the most fit. There is some degree of luck when it comes to incoming fire, so the most fit are sometimes cut down while those that are (marginally) less fit might survive. The Adeptus Astartes might not always see it that way, but that's a shortcoming of the authors and not a realistic view.

But Scouts/neophytes do count towards the count of 1,000 Marines.

We just know that the count of 1,000 Marines is incomplete and doesn't include the rest of the Chapter (as covered in the article).

[Philip S]

The count of 1,000 Marines is based on one thing and one thing alone - the squads in each of the ten companies of a Chapter. The assumption is that there are ten companies, and that each company is composed of ten squads, and that each squad is composed of ten members.

That assumption would only apply to the 10 companies.

Like some much in 40K there could be a disconnect in the way the describe things (as GW often does)

A Chapter, like many words in the English language, may have more than one meaning. Words often have a history, and the Space Marines have a long history. In other words 'chapter' may have two meanings. So there is the chapter referring to the 10 companies, and their may be another use of 'chapter' referring to the whole army.

Therefore a 'Chapter' may be like a Battalion, and the number many not include all the add ons, just as a Battalion has support and logistics.

These semantics may derive from the Space Marine history, as the Space Marines were once arranged into Legions, and then divided into chapters, so maybe a 'codex chapter' is 1,000 marines, spot on, but this does not include stuff outside the chapter that was once part of the legion - if you see what I mean?

It would still means the article is true in it's totals (sans the 100 scouts ) yet not prove that a chapter is not 1,000 marines, or merely prove one version of the word does not fit.

So the Ultramarines are based around a chapter (from the original Legion) yet they may have a whole bunch of add ons outside the original chapter structure, yet for convince they whole lot is often simply referred to as a 'chapter'. Though technically they are the Ultramarines (in the same way the British Army is the British Army).

Besides this;

It could also mean that 900 marines + 90 odd scouts + 100 special marines (with 20 vets leading scout units).

That would still be 1,000 marines, and 10 companies.

What I am suggesting is that you can see 40K pretty much any way you want, we all interpret the background in different way, and I think an article which tackles this issue should include all the variables. To explain it all rather than champion a single viewpoint.

Anyway this is getting off topic,

The scouts are still not marines, and nothing you have put forward has changed that.

Now that has been pointed out would, I suppose the question is; would it benefit the article to reconsider if the scouts being included in the 1,000 calculation? Or at least the option be made clear?

What do you think?

There is some degree of luck when it comes to incoming fire, so the most fit are sometimes cut down while those that are (marginally) less fit might survive. The Adeptus Astartes might not always see it that way, but that's a shortcoming of the authors and not a realistic view.

Perhaps that's why the keep scouts as scouts until the prove their worth, it not a case of surviving a certain length of time, they have to prove they are worthy. That's pretty subjective on the part of the full marines, and if a scout keeps surviving by 'luck' maybe the full marines will see luck as some kind of 'trait'.

But Scouts/neophytes do count towards the count of 1,000 Marines.

Assumed. I'm unassuming it

We just know that the count of 1,000 Marines is incomplete and doesn't include the rest of the Chapter (as covered in the article).

Depends on how you look at it

I think the article is good, and a fun read, but I do not think it is definitive and takes a very one sided point of view (even GW isn't that definitive! - It's hard to base a definitive article on something that is not definitive).

What about all those fans who like 1,000 marines per chapter - are they wrong? is GW wrong?

To clarify, I not saying the article is 'wrong' in it goal, as there is no way to prove it wrong with the background we have.

However, the scouts are not full marines and that is definitive, the question is; should that be reflected in the article? Or is my ramble enough?

Philip

[Night Dragon]

Even if that is the case, and Scouts should not count towards the total, it still doesn't really change the numbers or more importantly the impact of the article. The article was written to show that there are more than 1000 Space Marines in a Chapter. Even discounting Scouts, the total arrived at would be somewhere around 1300-1500.

Anyway, I think that Scouts should be counted, because they are Space Marines to my eyes.

[Vaktathi]

Just because he isn't a full battle brother does not mean he isn't counted as a Marine. As soon as he's inducted into a company he's taking a slot and takes up one of those 1000 places. It's everything *before* they reach Scout Status that doesn't count, as before that they aren't battle ready, don't have equipment, etc.

I think you'll have a hard time convincing people that Scouts aren't Space Marines. They may not have power armor, but that doesn't negate their status. It just means they aren't full ranked yet, but they are still Space Marines at that point.


That said, most SM chapters would still probably be over 1000 marines even without that. For all the guys in tac squads, you still need a couple dozen marines for each battlebarge/strike cruiser, crews for tanks and vehicles (they aren't all servitor operated) tactical planning staff, the various Officers (chaplains, captains, librarians, etc) and their retainers (honor guards, etc)

Really, unless one ignores the company structure that GW has detailed, you'd need a couple hundred extra marines to fill all the other roles that need to be filled.

This post has been edited by Vaktathi: Nov 10 2009, 12:48 PM

[Mikal Wolfheart]

Space Marine Scouts: Implies they are scouts of the Space Marines, they range ahead of the main force and plant locator beacons/find the enemy lair/cut off vital alarm systems so the other Marines can get on with it.

A Marine will kill you with ease
A scout will kill you, might take a bit more but they are still warriors

I'm still amused though that they seem to send in new recruits AND the veterans of the Chapters into the Space Hulks, normal marines are pretty much forgotten but those two with clearly differing roles enter the same infested things.

Plus Scouts appear to be the only marines capable of using sniper rifles and hellfire shells.

[Gunnar Hamundars...]

Spacewolves scouts do have the Black carapace and are full marines.

Really, if you are goint to compare recruit to recruit, you should compare training, etc. of SW Blood Claws to Codex Scouts.

[Philip S]

Space Marine Scouts: Implies they are scouts of the Space Marines,

Implies being the operative word

Philip

[jipimus]

My understanding was always that the Chapter master will have a core force avaialbe of 1000 battle brothers at any one time, with 10 squads per company and does not take support elements and marines on secondment into account but does include scouts (although they are not technically marines), with the actual number being well over 1000.

[IronWinds]

Secondary heart: check
Harder bones:check
Super human strength:check
More efficient blood:check
Larraman cells(blood clots faster):check
Ability to sleep w/ half the brain:check
Predigestive stomach that neutralizes poisons and allows marine to digest almost anything:check
Ability to read minds by eating other beings or drinking their blood:check
3 lungs:check
Extremely better eyesight:check
Better hearing & can not get dizzy:check
Ability to go into stasis:check
Skin reacts to different types of radiation:check
Oolitic kidney(immunity to most poisons):check
Ability to taste poisons and track by taste:check
Sweat that protects against extreme changes in temperature:check
Can spit poisons:check
Geneseed:check
Black carapace: not yet.

I say he is a marine. Actually.... I doubt 'new' chaos marines have black carapace. 1. where would they get it, 2. their armor molds and eventually becomes part of their bodies anyways. So does that mean a chaos marine in power armor is not a marine?

On another note some chapters don't have certain organs, does that make them not marines. On a final note you don't need black carapace to wear power armor, you need black carapace for power armor to react as well to your movements as it does for a marine.

A Marine will kill you with ease
A scout will kill you, might take a bit more but they are still warriors

I don't think he will have a harder time than a normal marine. Both are super human strong and armed with .75 caliber mini rocket launchers..... your screwed. Against you or me, no difference. The difference comes into play when they have to get shot with a .75 caliber mini rocket or when they are fighting a tyranid warrior in HtH.

I don't see why they wouldn't be counted myself. Look at the normal military, if the guy is on the ground in the enemy country getting shot at... he is being counted. And I'm not as much an expert on marines as chaos.... but doesn't your whole world revolve around there being 10 companies, each 10 squads strong, and the 10th company are scouts. 10*10*10=1000. Or did I miss something here.

[Piousservant]

I would think that most chapters would not view their scouts as Space Marines...

They are neophytes, trainees, etc. They haven't proven themselves (yet) and it would be when they have proven themselves and have earned the right to don power armour that they truely become Space Marines.

The same is true today in many respects, a Marine Recruit becomes a Royal Marine on completion of their training - at which point they finally earn the right to wear the Green Beret. Even if they've done the majority of their training and they only have a week left till they finish they still aren't a Royal Marine until they have passed out.

I think the same logic applies here. That kind of ethos is common in militaries today, particularly in elite forces, and in the ritualistic world of the Astartes (who really are an elite force!) I would expect at least a very similar ethos.


Also, it has been stated many times that the numbers of the Scout company fluctuate depending on the Chapters level of recruitment. For this reason alone I would not expect them to count towards the 1000 marines in the Chapter as that would suggest that "Codex" Chapters should limit themselves to a Scout Company of 100 - which due to the attritrition rates in training (and the need for keeping the rest of the Chapter at full strength) would be unnecessarily restrictive.

[Captain Juan Jua...]

I personally prefer, despite numerous articles and such, to work on the premise that there are around a 1000 line Astartes within a Chapter, including Squad Sergeants.

The Catpains, Chaplains, Dreadnoughts and Apothecaries etc. would would be in addition to these 1000 Marines.

[Vodunius]

In the Blood Angels scouts are an elites choice sharing the same stats less armour save as a full marine ... surely then they are picked for this role?

Thats the way GW was leaning with all scouts towards the end of 4th edition, people didn't like it so they shifted to the lesser stats/troops of the current vanilla dex. Fluffwise Blood Angel and Dark Angel scouts are* the same as vanilla ones.

* a lot of Blood Angel players interpreted the line about BA scouts being "the most fiery individuals in the chapter" to mean they were full/veteran marines during 3rd edition (personally I never set much score by it), however the mini-dex does state they are neophytes.

This post has been edited by Vodunius: Nov 10 2009, 03:12 PM

[Balroth]

Yep. Presumably, Scouts were made Elites to stop people picking the cheapest mandatory Troop choices and loading up on other goodies. It doesn't represent the fact that Scouts are 'elite'. Although with there being usually less than 100 spread throughout all the Chapter's engagements (and presumably a sizable percentage training away from combat zones), it's fair to call them 'rare'.

-B

[The Emperor'...]

Like it or not, the 1000 Marines in a Chapter idea is built up on the premise of including Scouts in the number.

As far as I'm concerned, everything from Scout to Chapter Master is a Space Marine. Once an Aspirant has enough combat training and implants to be sent into battle as a Scout he has ceased being an augmented human and is now a Space Marine, full Battle-Brother or not. He is considered part of the Brotherhood, a Brother-Scout.

This post has been edited by The Emperor's Champion: Nov 10 2009, 02:43 PM

[greatcrusade08]

Scouts ARE space marines!

I think it may be adviseable to check out the link here, for info on scouts.

they may not be full battle brothers but they are space marines!
for starters scout sergeants are veteran equivalents, then you can have scouts with all implants who are very close to the end of thier training.

there is a huge difference between a newly inducted scout and a scout biker who is very near promotion to the reserves dev companies, but even so a scout isnt deployed without thorough training and all have enough implants and geenseed to make them more marine than human.

GC08

This post has been edited by greatcrusade08: Nov 10 2009, 03:11 PM