Sweeping Advance v. We'll Be Back

[Brother Caleb]

If a unit shoots several Necron warriors with pistols, assaults, wins the assault and swept the unit after it failed moral.

 

Are the warriors knocked down by the shooting removed from the table with the rest of their unit?

[Frosty the Pyro]

no

[thade]

Frosty is correct (and remarkably brief). =)

 

The models that are still standing when you perform the Sweep are gone; the models that were killed during Shooting can get back up via WBB if there is another like unit within range. Solution: kill them all.

[Frosty the Pyro]

as an adendum to what thade said, models that were killed in CC before the sweeping advance can also make thier WBB rolls (assuming other requirments are met)

[SeattleDV8]

Incorrect, Sweeping Advance effects Units not models.

BRB pg. 40 "The falling back unit is destroyed" and again " The destroyed unit is removed immeadiately"

The entire unit is removed, not just the standing ones.

The downed Necrons are still part of their parent unit as shown in the Necron FAQ.

"Necrons who fail their WBB roll are removed

unless you intend to use a Monolith portal to

teleport the unit during the current move."

If they are not part of the unit then they would be unable to be teleported through the Monolith.

Also downed models are moved with the parent unit when Falling Back with a Res Orb. as they are still part of the unit.

Sweeping Advance is one of the few rules that over ride Codex rules.

A special rule must have specific wording (like ATSKNF does) to over-ride Sweeping Advance , WWB does not have that wording.

Side note: the rule is unchanged from 4th Ed except for the example ' ...other special rule , like WWB, can rescue...'

[Mezkh]

Yes is correct, not No, sorry frosty and thade :cry:

 

SeattleDV8 is right, and has covered all the points.

 

Sweeping Advance really hurts Necrons.

[thade]

Well...that's fantastic! (Sorry, Necrons.)

[GeoWolf]

Actually, I'm going to have to disagree with SeattleDV8. According to the Necron 'Dex: "Damaged Necrons are ignored completely for all normal game purposes such as coherency, measuring ranges, calculating whether other units can self repair, and so on - they are debris only."

 

The unit that the felled Necrons came from can indeed move away, leaving them there, but that would be a foolish thing to do. A Necron needs another model of the same type to be within 6" to stand back up. Or a Tomb spider within 12" and another model of the same type on the field somewhere.

 

Either or, once stood back up, the Necron becomes part of that unit, whether 6" away or 18" away. They are, for all intents and purposes "killed", and are ignored for everything else until the beginning of the next Necron turn. Now if the closest unit was wiped out, then certainly they are gonna be removed if there are no others or a tomb spider within range, but not because their "parent" unit was wiped out and run down.

 

once again it is a case of Codex trumps BRB

 

*just read the FAQ. I still stand by my posting, as it does not say that they are out right destroyed, and they also say "...to keep things simple..." which seems to me to be a house rule, not directly stating that you move the fallen with the units. That just sets up for abuse due to a model ALWAYS being nearby.

[Grey Mage]

Agreed- You cant hack down models in a sweeping advance if theyre not there to be hacked down. If theres an alternative way for them to come back- such as a tomb spider, then they should be ok.

[SeattleDV8]

once again it is a case of Codex trumps BRB

Not true in this case it is Specific > General

BRB pg 40 " Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage......"

Is WWB a special rule? Yes

Does WWB have specific wording telling us over-rules Sweeping Advance? No

The Codex does not meet the requirement to over ride the BRB.

So the Unit is destoryed and removed.

 

You and Grey Mage are confusing models with units.

Sweeping Advance effects units.

I have shown that the downed models are still part of the parent unit due to the Monolith portal ruling.

Yes Necron Models can join a new unit, but only after a WWB roll. Far too late to help the models from the parent unit.

[SeattleDV8]

Nothing to see. Move along.

[Grey Mage]

You and Grey Mage are confusing models with units.

Sweeping Advance effects units.

I have shown that the downed models are still part of the parent unit due to the Monolith portal ruling.

No seattle, Im not.

 

The Necrons who have been killed are "not capable of being attacked in any way". And the Sweeping advance rules state the victors are "attempting to cut down the retreating enemies". That in and of itself says alot.

 

They also are not part of any particular unit, as they are dead- they join wichever unit of the same type happens to be closest. As per the Necron Codex.

 

I wouldnt try to pull this one on a necron player, Id call shenanigans if I saw someone being talked into picking up previously downed models.

[SeattleDV8]

The Necrons who have been killed are "not capable of being attacked in any way". And the Sweeping advance rules state the victors are "attempting to cut down the retreating enemies". That in and of itself says alot.

Fluff does not = Rules

Sweeping Advance does not 'attack' models, it removes units from the table.

They also are not part of any particular unit, as they are dead- they join wichever unit of the same type happens to be closest. As per the Necron Codex.

So they are unable to be teleported through the Monolith? As it only works on units too.

FAQ ""Necrons who fail their WBB roll are removed

unless you intend to use a Monolith portal to

teleport the unit during the current move."

Also they only join new units after a successful WWB roll.

This is not a new rule to 5th ed, as I said it was in 4th ed in this form;

" No Invulnerable Save or any other special rule (such as the Necrons' We'll Be Back special rule) can save the unit at this stage....."

Hardly shenanigans it is just how the rule works and did work in past editions, it is only the changes in CC that came with 5th ed. that make SA so hard and much more common when fighting in CC with Necrons.

[Grey Mage]

You simply cannot kill what is already dead. You cannot remove what doesnt exist.

 

They get their WBB rolls, because only the units that are actually there can be removed. The already deceased necrons are not actually there to be removed with them, already being casualties themselves.

[GeoWolf]

I'm sorry, but in this case it is a matter or model vs unit. The fallen necrons are not part of that unit at the point in which they fall. Effectively they become casualties at this point. Anything happening to the parent unit after the shooting is done doesn't count them, and certainly they do not add in for the CC. They are ignored for all purposes, becoming ugly terrain. Once again, the fallen Necrons are not part of the original unit anymore, they are dead.

 

If another unit happens to be in range so they get their WBB rolls, that unit becomes the new "parent" unit. Even if you had run down the original unit, the WBB rules even states that at the end of the game(barring phase out) the final outcomes are not based on the kills made during the game, only the beginning model count to each unit and the finishing model count. Models switching units affect this, they do not get up, thank Bob Necron, then walk to the original unit. If the new unit is intending on being teleported, then the fallen go with them, because once again, the fallen will treat the closest unit as its "parent". There is no dedication among the metallic dead, one unit is as good as the next.

 

Or in the lovely case of a Tomb Spider, any unit on the board can become the new "parent" unit as long as they are the same type. WBB never states that you have to be near the original unit, only that you be near A unit. Fallen Necrons indeed cannot help the original unit in CC, or prevent a sweeping advance, but are not destroyed by it, only if the conditions for WBB are not met, and the roll for that is failed either at the beginning of the Necron turn or after teleporting.

[SeattleDV8]

They are still part of the parent unit as shown by two FAQ rulings, nothing in the Nercon Codex tells us they stop being part of the unit.

They can change units but that happens at the start of their turn.

Downed Necron's are not casualties, as casualties are removed from the table.

Because of WWB they are considered Damaged and are ignored for the most part, but even the Necron Codex and FAQs show us that they are not ignored for every thing.

The unit and all of its members are removed by SA.

[Grey Mage]

They are still part of the parent unit as shown by two FAQ rulings, nothing in the Nercon Codex tells us they stop being part of the unit.

They can change units but that happens at the start of their turn.

Downed Necron's are not casualties, as casualties are removed from the table.

Because of WWB they are considered Damaged and are ignored for the most part, but even the Necron Codex and FAQs show us that they are not ignored for every thing.

The unit and all of its members are removed by SA.

1) The downed necrons are markers only, as stated.

2) The Necron Codex does not list anything they are not ignored for except phase out. They are ignored for coherency, movement, shooting, assault, regrouping, and can be freely moved if they get in the way.

3) GW has said itself its FAQs are not official. It is likely a good way to go to treat them in most ways as still being a part of their parent unit- it does for instance simplify the idea of the monolith portal and limits its power quite a bit- but that doesnt make it RAW.

[SeattleDV8]

So then they are part of a unit when it's helpful to the Necrons but are not when its damaging to the Necrons?

Your argument lacks consistency.

[Grey Mage]

Its possible one could make a RAW argument that the downed ones dont go through with their one-time squad mates.

 

But yes, I would rather give the benefit of the doubt to the Necron player- and trust me, I hate Necrons as an army, and fluff- because your argument simply doesnt make sense. You are saying you can kill something that is already dead.

 

Not to mention the plain and simple fact that they in no way act as part of the unit save perhaps for being pulled through a monolith, and do in fact become part of whatever unit is closest- wich is often as not a different one than the one they were part of originally.

[SeattleDV8]

But yes, I would rather give the benefit of the doubt to the Necron player- and trust me, I hate Necrons as an army, and fluff- because your argument simply doesnt make sense. You are saying you can kill something that is already dead.

 

Leaving the fact that Necrons aren't living creatures to begin with?

Or that these same 'dead' models can get back up?

I never said that you can 'attack' the downed models.

Fluff-wise it doesn't even say that they are all 'killed' BRB pg. 40

"....scattered, ripped apart or sent packing, its members left either dead, wounded and captured, or at best fleeing and hiding."

I'm also not looking for fluff reasons behind the rule.

Yes you could make a argument that the downed models couldn't teleport through the portal, but it would be a silly one, seeing as thats the point of the Monolith portal to begin with, to give the downed models a second chance at WWB.

 

I do want the downed models treated with consistency.

They are treated as part of the Unit in 2 places in the FAQ's, I see no reason not to treat them the same in this case.

 

Sweeping Advance removes the Unit from play, both standing and downed.

[Grey Mage]

Nevermind. The Morale Section clears this all up.

[SeattleDV8]

Also ...nevermind

I was responding to a post you withdrew.

[Brother Caleb]

One quick question and observation:

 

1. How does the moral section clear this up? Forgive my ignorance.

 

2. From a fluff perspective, It seems to me that part of a SA is making sure those down are sufficiently dead through decapitation or running through with a chainsword and what not.

[GeoWolf]

No, the FAQ is making sure they are with a unit, any unit, as long as it is in range. Not once does it say that it needs the original parent unit to be nearby. Nor does the codex for that matter. Just as every other codex has something that ignores the BRB, so to does this. The downed models are ignored for ALL purposes, and only marginally become part of what ever unit is closest at the start of their turn.

 

Both of the rules you point out say a unit, which is correct, SA destroys units and Monoliths teleport units. However, a fallen Necron is not part of any unit, at least until the start of his own turn, and becomes a single model as well as a marker that is ignored.

 

SA does not target models, it targets units. As your marines run down the fleeing Necrons, they are going to leave the fallen. Monoliths only teleport units in their turn, beginning of the movement phase I believe, and the fallen do not count as such until the beginning of their turn, when checking the factors of WBB. And you actually measure from each individual fallen Necron to units to check ranges, For WBB and for a Res Orb.

[thade]

Grey Mage has re-awakened my conviction in my original position here. There is something that has not been considered here, but comes up with a close inspection of the WBB rule's writing.

 

Specifically, when a Necron model is downed, it is no longer part of the unit it was in. Thus, when that unit is destroyed by Sweeping Advance, the models downed in that combat pre-Sweep are not removed with the rest of the unit (they are no longer part of it).

 

Note that all of the rules state that the model can stand back up if there's a Necron model in range, regardless of whether it's a model in it's original unit or not. It joins the closest unit of those within range. They would only be a part of their original unit again if they were to stand back up and rejoin it (as it would be the closest Necron unit in range if still locked in Assault).