Blacklight Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 Another full edit, taking into account the discussions that have taken place since the last update. I haven't hit on the chapter's history yet - I went on a writing spree the other night but the history just wasn't coming to me. I did get quite a bit on the rest of the major points, so those are up here for review. Some of the changes: removed the Mechanicus facility entirely - wasn't really a reason to keep it and it just caused more problems than it was really worth. Also changed them from a melee force to a ranged force - I justified it a little bit in the fluff. Personally I'm open to both melee and ranged specific armies, so it didn't matter to me which way they ended up, but a ranged force seemed to fit them more than a melee one. Initially the only reason they were melee based was because of the fact I originally was going to play Black Templar and their melee fixation sort of stuck. There's probably a variety of other changes I can't recall at the moment, but please, let me know what you think of it. This won't be the look of the final IA obviously, but I found it easier to write everything and then go through and prune off extra details that can be reserved for after I finish the IA and start working on a Codex. Thanks again. ----------------------------------------------------------- http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/7645/iaheader.png"The mind of the indolent becomes undone, but the mind of the diligent becomes keen." - Chapter Master Dacien Septimus, first Chapter Master of the Steel Wardens, the Codex Eternum. Formed during the 16th Founding, the Steel Wardens are a Space Marine chapter drawn from the line of Ferrus Manus, Primarch of the Iron Hands. Intended to defend against Chaos and Ork incursions in the Segmentum Ultima, they were given the relatively unknown world of Masada as both their homeworld and staging area for attacks against their enemies. Trained by veterans of the Iron Hands, the Steel Wardens inherited their trainers’ affection for technology as well as their combat style. One of these veterans, named Dacien Septimus, would go on to become the Wardens’ first chapter master. A dry and mountainous world, Masada is officially labeled a Dead World, but soon after the Steel Wardens arrived on the world they found signs of life. Masada was inhabited by relatively primitive barbarian clans. With no surface water to be found, the clans had clearly found some source of water. After some time on the world, the Wardens discovered this source – beneath the planet’s surface was a vast, planet spanning network of tunnels that housed Masada’s water supply. The Masadans discovered this source of water and used it to survive on an otherwise lifeless planet. However, the barbarians of Masada were not the planet’s only inhabitants – underground, deep within the planet’s tunnel network, dwelled millions upon millions of mutated Orks. How the creatures came to live on the world, and how they mutated, is not known even to the Wardens. What is known, however, is that the creatures cannot survive outside the tunnels – the chapter’s apothecaries reason that the Orks have dwelled in the tunnels so long their biological makeup has changed to allow them to survive perfectly without light. This also means that they can no longer deal with sunlight. One specimen’s flesh, when hauled to the surface by one of the Wardens, began to boil and burn almost immediately. Orks on Masada, in contrast to those found throughout the rest of the galaxy, have a sickly pale, barely green skin tone which supports the tunnel-dwelling theory. The origins of the planet's mysterious tunnel network were unknown until the 1st Purge of Masada. Several squads of Steel Warden marines were fighting a tunnel Ork force back through a tunnel some distance from the fortress-monastery when suddenly a gigantic wormlike creature burst through the cavern wall. Pale and grub-like, the creature’s enormous maw contained several circular rows of teeth, and it appeared to be digesting the rock and soil. The creature did not directly attack the marines, though several unfortunate Orks were standing directly in front of the worm when it burst through the wall and were ripped to shreds in the worm’s maw. These worms are now called Masadan Sappers, and the planet’s current population is unknown. The creatures pull nutrients from the soil and rock and require no living sustenance and are only a danger if an unfortunate soul is standing in front of them with nowhere to flee. The planet has no other life forms, though with millions of miles of tunnel underneath the surface, the Wardens have no way of knowing the extent of the Ork infestation or if there are creatures yet to be found. The barbarians on the surface survive by eating the meat of the Sappers. The worms are so large that a single worm can sustain an entire clan for over a season, depending on the size. Several times per year the barbarians form hunting parties that venture inside the tunnel network in search of these worms. Killing the creatures is a particularly daunting feat as the creature’s hide is notoriously hard to penetrate, though the barbarians invented an ingenious way of dealing with them. The clansmen carry a weapon similar to a ballista down into the tunnels and lie in wait. When a worm approaches, they fire an oversized javelin directly down the gullet of the worm. Once inside, the clansmen pull on a rope trailed by the javelin that extends massive barbs out into the worm’s innards. The worm flails about in distress and eventually tears itself to shreds internally and dies. The clansmen then begin to haul the creature to the surface and back to the rest of the clan. The barbarians generally know how to avoid the tunnel Orks – they aren’t very stealthy and the learned clansmen can hear them long before the Orks are upon them. The Orks themselves have split into a number of tribes, each led by a Warboss, that continually wage war upon each other for territory. The Wardens and barbarians are almost completely safe on the surface, as the Orks cannot venture into the sun, and the night cycle of Masada generally lasts for only a few hours depending on the location. It isn’t unheard of for Ork raiding parties to venture out at night, but with almost nothing on the surface to pillage, they are a rare occurrence. Typically raiding parties are sent out by impatient or new Ork Warbosses that are looking for something to kill – the raiding party usually gets carried away and dies during the sunrise. Though the Orks rarely ever leave their tunnels and the Wardens are quite safe in their fortress-monastery, every chapter master of the Steel Wardens has issued several Purges during their command. These Purges are essentially crusades against the Orks, during which several companies of marines descend into the dark tunnels in an effort to eradicate the aliens that dwell beneath the surface of their homeworld. Despite the fact that the Orks’ presence on Masada does not disturb the marines in almost any way, the idea that greenskins dwell on their sacred homeworld right beneath their feet angers most Wardens. The first Purge was decreed by Chapter Master Dacien Septimus shortly after the completion of the chapter’s fortress-monastery, and resulted in the eradication of thousands of Orks with relatively few casualties – the assault was halted only by more pressing matters on other worlds. No matter the current situation, the chapter’s 10th Company, called the Aegides – or Shields – remain in the fortress-monastery and defend it from attack. Whereas most chapters’ 10th Company consists of the chapter’s recruits, each Company in the Steel Wardens is of equal makeup to the rest. The Aegides are responsible not only for the defense of Masada and of the fortress-monastery, but the recruitment of potential initiates from the planet’s barbarian population. The marines that make up the Aegides changes every five years, which allows for dreadnoughts in other Companies to take time to rest in the Necropolis and train the initiates. Life on the nearly completely dead world has made the barbarians hardened and capable, hunters especially. The Aegides often visit the barbarians, usually once or twice per year, to determine if any of them are worthy of becoming Astartes. The barbarians regard the Space Marines as godlike figures, descending from the mesa in strange vehicles and garbed in armor of metal. Those that are chosen are almost universally willing, as they believe they have been chosen by gods. In similar fashion to other Space Marine chapters, the Steel Wardens do not view the Emperor as a god. Instead, they see him as the finest example of humanity in the galaxy and strive ever to emulate him. To this end, every Warden’s goal in life is to prove themselves worthy of interment within a dreadnought’s sarcophagus. In a Warden’s eyes, the sarcophagus of a dreadnought is a direct parallel to the Golden Throne of Terra – so the Emperor serves eternally in his throne do the Wardens strive to serve eternally in their dreadnoughts. Each Warden, from the moment of their initiation, is taught this and take the lesson to heart. Initiates that fail to understand this never make it through the rigorous training. Once earning their Black Carapace and becoming a full Warden, every marine begins the long quest to earn their dreadnought honors – the equivalent of terminator honors in other chapters. The Steel Wardens do have terminator honors as well, but the process of earning the right to be interred in a dreadnought is much more rigorous. Earning their honors does not guarantee the marine’s interment – it does, however, mark them as worthy. If, when they fall, the situation allows them to be interred – meaning an empty dreadnought is available, and the marine has earned their honors – they will be interred upon their return to the fortress-monastery. To be interred in a dreadnought is to earn the greatest honor available to a marine of the Steel Wardens chapter. Though the process of being interred – nearly dying on the field of battle and then being reawaken inside the cold sarcophagus of a dreadnought – is not a pleasant one, the battle-brothers look to it with anticipation. During their time of training they spend many days studying the tomes of the Liber Memoriam in order to mentally prepare for the rigors to come. Once the process is complete and the marine has adapted to their new form, they begin to add their thoughts and memories to the Liber Memoriam. These initial writings, scribed by newly interred marines, are vital to the studies of initiates as they give a rare glimpse into the mind of a dreadnought soon after awaking in their new form. This glimpse allows initiates to begin to understand the rigors of the interment process and how best to prepare for them. To the rest of the chapter, the dreadnoughts are viewed as holders of wisdom and counsel. Dreadnoughts in the Aegides are regarded as teachers as much as defenders of the fortress-monastery. They often lend their wisdom to initiates in the form of lessons in tactics and battle. Their teachings are frequently accompanied by direct, first-hand accounts of the battles they describe, as many of the dreadnoughts are old enough to have taken place in the fighting. This experience is invaluable, and many of the chapter’s initiates earn their Black Carapace and become fully fledged Astartes with knowledge of battle and war long beyond their years. The Steel Wardens' battle cry is two-part, the first spoken by the battle-brothers before a charge or before opening fire. The second is spoken by the chapter's dreadnoughts immediately after the first. The second part's conclusion signals the charge or open fire command. Battle-Brothers: "In life I serve!" Dreadnoughts: "In death I serve eternal!" ----------------------------------------------------------- Changelog - 1/24/2011: Minor grammar edits, added possible Battle Cry. - 1/17/2011: Added beliefs, not sure if I'm done with the section yet but the majority is posted. - 1/15/2011: Completely rewrote the chapter and edited the entire first post, sans the chapter history. Hit on their homeworld, combat doctrine, fortress-monastery, and creation. History, beliefs, and gene-seed to come soon. - 1/9/2011: Alignment changes for top of article, changed the usage of Black Templar, and added some potential insignia to the top of the article. - 1/8/2011: Changed Iron Fists to Iron Hands, chapter name error. Changed the chapter that trained the Wardens from Black Templar to Iron Hands and revised the Training section. - 1/7/2011: Posted rough draft of Origins section using my notes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecritter Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 This has been attempted before and seems wrought with problems. - All of the command units in the chapter are dreadnoughts/venerable dreadnoughts. Do you really see a Chapter operating effectively when all their command units are asleep 90% of the time? - Every marine in the chapter strives to prove their worth in order to be interred in a dreadnought later in life. Dreads are the rarest of the rare, is this feasible? - They're a crusading chapter similar to the Black Templar. No real problem here. - The highest level of command is the Council of War, led by an Ancient of War. As said before, they're all venerable dreadnoughts. Again the problem is being lead by sleeping marines. - I dabbled in the idea of having some 'memory bank' that keeps an archive of the memories of all dreadnoughts in the chapter. Not sure how this would work lore-wise, but I wanted to sort of expand on the idea of how dreadnoughts can often have memories that stretch back thousands of years and make that a focus of the chapter, seeing how they are dreadnought-centric. New tech in a verse that is very much set tech wise is at best a question. - They would be fleet-based. Again, no issue here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacklight Posted January 4, 2011 Author Share Posted January 4, 2011 This has been attempted before and seems wrought with problems. I would imagine, it's a difficult idea to get to fit into the lore. Do you really see a Chapter operating effectively when all their command units are asleep 90% of the time? No, I hadn't considered that one. Do all dreads sleep like that or is it simply because they're not needed? If I recall (and I'm not the best lore-wise so please correct) they're not always sleeping, and they sleep mostly because they're not needed until it's time to go to war. If they were on a 'war council' of sorts they would be needed more often, thus sleeping less. Dreads are the rarest of the rare, is this feasible? This is another hang-up I'm working on for the fluff. I realize they're rare, so there would have to be a reason in the fluff for them to have more dreadnoughts in their force. I don't want to take the cheesy way out and say they found the STC for dreadnought armor or found some underground vault and looted a bunch - believe me, I'm not trying to make a cheese chapter. No real easy explanations for this one yet but I'll do some more thinking on it. Again the problem is being lead by sleeping marines. As above, I'm hoping most dreads sleep just because they're not needed. If that's the case then, for the most part, this can be explained away by saying they're the leaders and thus are needed more often. Otherwise, I'll have to think of something else. New tech in a verse that is very much set tech wise is at best a question. Another good point. As was said, I was dabbling in it as a way to fluff up the chapter. It might not be something so organic, maybe a text archive. Each dreadnought commits their memories to page and stores them in the archive as a way to preserve the chapter's history. Thanks for the comments, Ecritter, I appreciate it! Hopefully I can work on this enough to actually make the idea work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecritter Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 Its always been my understanding that the sleep was a sanity issue. Others may have a better or different understanding on this issue. I'll help if I can, but I still see serious issues that need clarification or resolution. EDIT: Looked over the C:SM and found this. Dreadnoughts are not seen merely as formidable weapons of war, but as keepers of tradition and custodians of knowledge whose advice is sought by initiate and Chapter Master alike. It is not unknown for Dreadnoughts to serve as members of the Chapter Council, lending wisdom to strategy as they do fury to the battlefield. So .... I may be completely wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacklight Posted January 4, 2011 Author Share Posted January 4, 2011 Its always been my understanding that the sleep was a sanity issue. Others may have a better or different understanding on this issue. I'll help if I can, but I still see serious issues that need clarification or resolution. I took a look on the Lexicanum and I got the impression that it was more of a courtesy given to the marines interred so that they don't go insane just sitting around. Giving them something to do other than stand and wait would make the years go by more easily. I only have the Lexicanum's wording to go on, though, I'm trying to find the section on dreadnoughts in the Imperial Armor book. Though, looking at the Bjorn the Fell-Handed entry on the same site says he slept longer and longer in stasis sleep because of the toll 500 years of fighting took on him. But again, not sure if that's a unique case or what. I appreciate it. I'm really wanting to work the kinks out, I love my dreadnoughts from an aesthetic point of view. I'd like to have a chapter that reflects that. Hopefully some solutions will come around. Haha, just saw your edit. I forgot I read that part. So it would seem to me that sleep is just a way to keep them sane and not get cabin (or barge) fever. Bjorn might be a unique case seeing how he's incredibly old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CKO Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 The major flaw is having Dreadnaughts as your leaders. One way you can get around this is to have your chapter master and captains dreads on rotation, the Council of War will act as the leaders of the chapters. That way when they enter their deep sleep there will be atleast a handfull of dreads on duty or waiting for promotion. The next problem is that Dreadnaughts are rare but the average chapter has 9 Captains and 1 Chapter Master meaning only 10 leaders. If you go by the picture in the Codex each company has 2 Dreadnaughts -_- . That means there are around 20 dreadnaughts in a chapter, lets say your chapter has more than the average number of dreads(like Iron Hands) and has 1 more per company. You can then change the organization of the chapter to have seven companys instead of ten, meaning that you will have atleast four dreads per company two acting as normal dreads one sleeping and one ruling. However seven times four is twenty-eight leaving two which is where the rotating Council of War comes in. I think this is logical and an easy organization chart for your chapter. If you want more dreads you can lower the number of companys, or you can say that the number of dreads awakening out number the ones that are going to sleep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacklight Posted January 4, 2011 Author Share Posted January 4, 2011 Thanks for the tips, CKO. I was planning on having fewer companies than is Codex standard and making the whole chapter generally fight together as one unified force, rather than having the companies be independent. Or, failing that, have four or five companies/crusades. Going with 5 companies, and each one sending a single dreadnought to the Council of War, that would mean that, if I was going with 30 dreads in the chapter, there would be 6 in each company. Each would send one of them to the CoW, one would sleep, and the other four would be active in battle. That'd leave 20 dreads combat ready, which is pretty decent all things considered. Could even go to 3 or 4 companies/crusades, and make each one somewhat independent of each other. Don't know yet, but thanks for the help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CKO Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 Absolutely no problem, I am a Son of Rogal Dorn and will gladly assist my fellow Black Templar players! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apothete Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 Once upon a time, my main DIY Chapter was supposed to have some Dreadnought officers. They were paired with a senior Astartes, usually a Sergeant or a Veteran who showed particular strength of character and leadership, in order to allow for a direct line commander in situation where the stompy wrathmachines wouldn't be feasible - shipboard action, hive stacks, and so on. In the end, I cut it as a needless complication with too many factors going against it. There's very old fluff that states Dreadnoughts spend much of their time asleep in order to conserve the humanity and lucidity of the entombed, as whiling away the centuries in an armored shell with nothing but external sensors and a limited ability to serve with your Brothers can apparently lead to psychosis. Some people point to the unbridled insanity and instability in Chaos Dreadnoughts as an example of what happens if those in the sarcophagi aren't properly handled, but I think there's room to argue that other factors also play a role there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezekial Gravestone Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 i actuly like where this is going, i will be back to post when i actuly get some sleep this is a placement to remind me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Debonair Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 In the end, I cut it as a needless complication with too many factors going against it. There's very old fluff that states Dreadnoughts spend much of their time asleep in order to conserve the humanity and lucidity of the entombed, as whiling away the centuries in an armored shell with nothing but external sensors and a limited ability to serve with your Brothers can apparently lead to psychosis. Some people point to the unbridled insanity and instability in Chaos Dreadnoughts as an example of what happens if those in the sarcophagi aren't properly handled, but I think there's room to argue that other factors also play a role there. I remember someone telling me once that the older dreadnoughts require more and more rest time in order to maintain their sanity, too. That would make having an all-dreadnought council a little difficult, unless they are also frequently replaced. Perhaps you could have your chapter deliberately disconnect people from dreadnoughts once they get past so many years, although I'm sure that would raise some issues in and of itself. :P As a side note, the 7-company setup* and the abundance of dreads suggests to me these guys would be great Iron Hands successors. Ain't no rule against having crusading, BT-esque Iron Hands descendants. :) *Iron Hands do have seven companies, don't they? Or was that the Salamanders? :) Huh, perhaps I need to spend more time asleep. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightrawenII Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 The next problem is that Dreadnaughts are rare but the average chapter has 9 Captains and 1 Chapter Master meaning only 10 leaders. If you go by the picture in the Codex each company has 2 Dreadnaughts :) . That means there are around 20 dreadnaughts in a chapter, lets say your chapter has more than the average number of dreads(like Iron Hands) and has 1 more per company. You can then change the organization of the chapter to have seven companys instead of ten, meaning that you will have atleast four dreads per company two acting as normal dreads one sleeping and one ruling. However seven times four is twenty-eight leaving two which is where the rotating Council of War comes in. Errm, there is something wrong with your numbers. #1 The Chapter has 10 Captains and 1 Chapter Master = 11 leaders + Head Chaplain + Head Librarian + Head Apothecary + Head Techmarine = 15 Counsellors. #2 The picture in the Codex is the Company of Ultramarines, 1st Founding Chapter. + 10th Scout Company has no dreads. So I would say ~12 Dreads at best. As for the unstability of Dreads: As the Dreadnought continues to fight through the centuries, the Old One's grip on the material world inevitably begins to slip and he spends more and more time dormant, his mind becoming ever more distant. ~ Index Astartes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soddinnutter Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 One possible reason for Dreadnaughts going nuts is that the human brain is just not meant to work for that length on time. The average human brain can hold an estimated 10 terrabytes of information. Not sure how much of that a normal person uses in their biblical three score year and ten but a marine can live for much longer. And Dreadnaughts longer still. If you call that living. Sensory deprivation for extended periods of time does not nice things to the brain. And save for some digital feeds from their suits auto-senses that is what they are living through. for thousands of years. eventually they will go mad. Some will cope better than others. Their could be coping mechanisms; music, poetry, logic puzzles, strategy simulations and the like. Things that are purely of a cerebral nature. Also look at how they go into that cold uncaring metal shell. Broken chunks of bone and meat, barely alive and in constant agony. Your chapters comand structure is going to be suicidal the day the painkiller shipments are behind schedule. Maybe senility, dementia and alzheimers is how old marines end. All that can be hoped is for a clean death in battle of for friends to put you down whilst your peers still remember you how you were meant to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacklight Posted January 4, 2011 Author Share Posted January 4, 2011 Thanks for all the feedback, guys. Let me hit it one at a time: Once upon a time, my main DIY Chapter was supposed to have some Dreadnought officers. They were paired with a senior Astartes, usually a Sergeant or a Veteran who showed particular strength of character and leadership, in order to allow for a direct line commander in situation where the stompy wrathmachines wouldn't be feasible - shipboard action, hive stacks, and so on. In the end, I cut it as a needless complication with too many factors going against it. There's very old fluff that states Dreadnoughts spend much of their time asleep in order to conserve the humanity and lucidity of the entombed, as whiling away the centuries in an armored shell with nothing but external sensors and a limited ability to serve with your Brothers can apparently lead to psychosis. Some people point to the unbridled insanity and instability in Chaos Dreadnoughts as an example of what happens if those in the sarcophagi aren't properly handled, but I think there's room to argue that other factors also play a role there. I actually do like that idea. Dreadnoughts seem to me like the Astartes' greatest tactical thinkers, having been alive for so long and basically having seen it all. Having a non-dreadnought Astartes to do their bidding while in stasis sleep would help alleviate the issue a bit. Still, like you said, it's a complication. I remember someone telling me once that the older dreadnoughts require more and more rest time in order to maintain their sanity, too. That would make having an all-dreadnought council a little difficult, unless they are also frequently replaced. Perhaps you could have your chapter deliberately disconnect people from dreadnoughts once they get past so many years, although I'm sure that would raise some issues in and of itself. B) As a side note, the 7-company setup* and the abundance of dreads suggests to me these guys would be great Iron Hands successors. Ain't no rule against having crusading, BT-esque Iron Hands descendants. :P I did consider Iron Hands as well. I'm considering switching the host chapter to Iron Hands and having them sort of take after the Templar as a crusade force. As for the unstability of Dreads:As the Dreadnought continues to fight through the centuries, the Old One's grip on the material world inevitably begins to slip and he spends more and more time dormant, his mind becoming ever more distant. ~ Index Astartes. Thanks for that one. It sounds to me, correct me if I'm wrong, that dreadnoughts go insane just because they're doing nothing but sleeping and fighting. Sleeping helps them ignore the hundreds or thousands of years they've been alive and the sort of insanity that causes. However, I think there's something to be said for giving the dreadnoughts something to do other than just sleep and fight, as soddinnutter says: One possible reason for Dreadnaughts going nuts is that the human brain is just not meant to work for that length on time. The average human brain can hold an estimated 10 terrabytes of information. Not sure how much of that a normal person uses in their biblical three score year and ten but a marine can live for much longer. And Dreadnaughts longer still. If you call that living. Sensory deprivation for extended periods of time does not nice things to the brain. And save for some digital feeds from their suits auto-senses that is what they are living through. for thousands of years. eventually they will go mad. Some will cope better than others. Their could be coping mechanisms; music, poetry, logic puzzles, strategy simulations and the like. Things that are purely of a cerebral nature. Also look at how they go into that cold uncaring metal shell. Broken chunks of bone and meat, barely alive and in constant agony. Your chapters comand structure is going to be suicidal the day the painkiller shipments are behind schedule. Maybe senility, dementia and alzheimers is how old marines end. All that can be hoped is for a clean death in battle of for friends to put you down whilst your peers still remember you how you were meant to be. Giving them some sort of coping mechanism, be it committing their memories to paper through a servitor, teaching younger initiates in the ways of tactics and battle, or, hell, music and poetry. It reminds me of old feudal knights and samurai, who, in addition to being amazing fighters, would also be schooled in music, poetry, etc. If you have a dreadnought, whose fate is to live entombed in a shell in a broken body for ages, why not give them something to pass the time? I know if I was to be forced to live for thousands of years longer than I was supposed to, simply having something to do would make it more tolerable. And, to add a few more tidbits to my original brainstorm: - The chapter was originally not a dreadnought-focused force. During a battle (haven't decided which) the Chapter Master and his guard were grievously wounded in combat. They were entombed within dreadnoughts to preserve them. The foes that wounded them (again, haven't decided who) escaped retribution after being driven off by reinforcements from the chapter. After the Chapter Master awoke, he ordered the chapter on a crusade to find and destroy their escaped foes. This last bit is a bit sketchy, I know. I'm not sure if a Chapter Master would hold a vendetta against a xeno/heretic force that wiped out his personal guard. Perhaps it destroyed a larger portion of their chapter, or stole relics that the chapter prized, anything that would make them launch a crusade against them and their kind. - Some chapter name ideas: Steel Legion, Iron Legion, Steel Hands. I want it to reflect their dreadnought heritage, so some sort of metal in the name. Any ideas are great. Again, all, thanks for the feedback. I can tell this is a bit of a debatable idea and I want to try and get it to work - all of your comments are really helping me hammer something out. Hopefully I can be the first to get this to work satisfactorily. I don't want to jump on here and seem like I'm trying to ram an idea down your throats. 40k is a very established lore, and dear to many people, and I don't want to ruin it for anyone. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CKO Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 I just finish thanking you for helping me out! I still think dreads leading is more than feasible alot of kinks but he can pull it out with some creative thinking. #1 The Chapter has 10 Captains and 1 Chapter Master = 11 leaders + Head Chaplain + Head Librarian + Head Apothecary + Head Techmarine = 15 Counsellors. I thought the Chapter Master was over the 1st company, I am most likely wrong so that is 11 leaders, but the other positions do not have to be dreadnaughts for the chapter to function properly. #2 The picture in the Codex is the Company of Ultramarines, 1st Founding Chapter. + 10th Scout Company has no dreads. So I would say ~12 Dreads at best. Actually looking at a picture on page 17, they tell you the number of Dreads in each company and the total is 26. Which is 6 more than my calculations so I guess I am wrong or right? :mellow: Either way it is suffice to say that he will have more than enough dreads for his chapter. As for the unstability of Dreads:As the Dreadnought continues to fight through the centuries, the Old One's grip on the material world inevitably begins to slip and he spends more and more time dormant, his mind becoming ever more distant. ~ Index Astartes. This is very true and the main reason why you should listen to guys like nightrawenII, they provide detail questions that if answered correctly will make your chapter more viable. You can get away with saying that your dreads have a high resistance to the ageing effect because the techmarines take top notch care of them, they realize the importance of their continue existence for the chapter, and the venerable dreads have a unique vow which helps them aswell. If your marines are constantly preparing themselves to become a dread than their resistance should be higher, also you can make it seem as though the madness is like the forces of chaos(not 100% but you get what I mean) and they resist it with the same passion. And when a dread finally goes mad you they can be like Death Company or lone wolves sent on the battlefield to do as much damage and die, and if they live they have earn a chance to rest and hopefully become sain next time they are raised to fight. I am excited for you Blacklight you really have something going I hope you make it through the maze and have a good IA! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacklight Posted January 5, 2011 Author Share Posted January 5, 2011 Thanks for the encouragement, CKO! I'm working on the Origins and some more of the fluff right now, nothing substantial yet aside from ideas whirling around I'm trying to commit to page. The one thing I'm stuck on right now is the founding, and having a legitimate reason. I don't want them to be too old, like in the 3rd Founding, just because that seems a bit overused. It would fit alright, considering I want the dreadnoughts to be old, but I also want to have the original chapter master still alive but interred in a dreadnought. Having a dreadnought as old as the 3rd Founding seems a bit much - though Bjorn is older. Anyways, I was shooting for 22nd Founding, though I haven't been able to find a date of any kind which I would like to have. I don't want to use the 21st, obviously, as it has the reputation of being cursed which I don't want to muck with. Anyways, I was look at 22nd Founding, as that would let me have some fairly old dreadnoughts in the chapter. I'm still brainstorming, but I had the thought that they were initially assigned as a defensive role in the Segmentum Tempestus to keep Orks from invading further. After contact was made with the T'au, they were relocated to Segmentum Ultima to keep the T'au in check and prevent them from attacking any Imperium held worlds. It is in a battle with the T'au the chapter master and his entourage fall in battle and are interred as dreadnoughts, sparking a crusade against the T'au and starting the chapter on their path towards revering dreadnoughts. It's sparse, I know, hopefully you all can give me some tips. The biggest thing for me is to have enough time between their creation and 'now' to allow them to accumulate a decent number of dreadnoughts and to have them be reasonably old. It doesn't make much sense to me to have a chapter that reveres dreads but their oldest one is only a few hundred years old. Ideally I'd like to cram a thousand years, at least, between the founding and now. Only problem with that is finding a point that fits nicely and still has the opportunity to have the chapter master fall in battle fairly early on after their creation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecritter Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 I think it'd be best to have early to mid-teens founding, if you want Dreads that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Debonair Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 I'm working on the Origins and some more of the fluff right now, nothing substantial yet aside from ideas whirling around I'm trying to commit to page. The one thing I'm stuck on right now is the founding, and having a legitimate reason. I don't want them to be too old, like in the 3rd Founding, just because that seems a bit overused. It would fit alright, considering I want the dreadnoughts to be old, but I also want to have the original chapter master still alive but interred in a dreadnought. Having a dreadnought as old as the 3rd Founding seems a bit much - though Bjorn is older. Hmm. You could also have it so the original chapter master is long dead and gone, but successive dreadnoughts take over the name, iconography and armaments, so the original master lives on in the hereditary sense. You could even have it so it's kind of a secret known only by the high-ranking members of the chapter, and the regular marines genuinely believe the chapter master is still alive. ;) Anyways, I was shooting for 22nd Founding, though I haven't been able to find a date of any kind which I would like to have. I don't want to use the 21st, obviously, as it has the reputation of being cursed which I don't want to muck with. Anyways, I was look at 22nd Founding, as that would let me have some fairly old dreadnoughts in the chapter. Well, if I'm not mistaken, most foundings haven't got specific dates anyhow. Just saying 'created in the X founding' is usually enough. I'm still brainstorming, but I had the thought that they were initially assigned as a defensive role in the Segmentum Tempestus to keep Orks from invading further. After contact was made with the T'au, they were relocated to Segmentum Ultima to keep the T'au in check and prevent them from attacking any Imperium held worlds. It is in a battle with the T'au the chapter master and his entourage fall in battle and are interred as dreadnoughts, sparking a crusade against the T'au and starting the chapter on their path towards revering dreadnoughts. Given the Tau are only really a threat after the most recent founding, I'm not sure about that. It'd mean a fair while before the chapter develops it's affinity for Dreadnoughts. Of course, you can just shift the moving-to-fight-Tau to after they go dread-crazy. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Sensory deprivation for extended periods of time does not nice things to the brain. And save for some digital feeds from their suits auto-senses that is what they are living through. for thousands of years. eventually they will go mad. Some will cope better than others. Their could be coping mechanisms; music, poetry, logic puzzles, strategy simulations and the like. Things that are purely of a cerebral nature. Sorry to very quickly derail but while I know what you mean, this made me chuckle bringing to mind a dreadnaught trying to hold a giant pencil in his power-claw, muttering over a sudoku. "but 7 HAS to go there!! **Engage heavy flamer**" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightrawenII Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Thanks for that one. It sounds to me, correct me if I'm wrong, that dreadnoughts go insane just because they're doing nothing but sleeping and fighting. Sleeping helps them ignore the hundreds or thousands of years they've been alive and the sort of insanity that causes. However, I think there's something to be said for giving the dreadnoughts something to do other than just sleep and fight, as soddinnutter says: *shrug* Or because they are entombed in the iron-coffin, where they can sense nothing. That's what drives the Chaos dreads over edge. I thought the Chapter Master was over the 1st company, I am most likely wrong so that is 11 leaders, but the other positions do not have to be dreadnaughts for the chapter to function properly. No, there is 1st Captain. Well, he was talking about Council of leaders. ;) Actually looking at a picture on page 17, they tell you the number of Dreads in each company and the total is 26. Which is 6 more than my calculations so I guess I am wrong or right? :D Either way it is suffice to say that he will have more than enough dreads for his chapter. Yes, but the Ultramarines are 1st Founding Chapter. So the number is technically no indication, how many dreads will have the later Founding Chapter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecritter Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Hmm.You could also have it so the original chapter master is long dead and gone, but successive dreadnoughts take over the name, iconography and armaments, so the original master lives on in the hereditary sense. You could even have it so it's kind of a secret known only by the high-ranking members of the chapter, and the regular marines genuinely believe the chapter master is still alive. ;) And the Dread Pirate Robert immediately comes to mind. On a more serious note, some Chapters do have their CM leading the 1st Company, so its not too far out there. In fact the Salamander so just that, and they only have 6 companies .... so less Dreads needed if you chose to go that route. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacklight Posted January 5, 2011 Author Share Posted January 5, 2011 You could also have it so the original chapter master is long dead and gone, but successive dreadnoughts take over the name, iconography and armaments, so the original master lives on in the hereditary sense. You could even have it so it's kind of a secret known only by the high-ranking members of the chapter, and the regular marines genuinely believe the chapter master is still alive. ;) It's an interesting idea, but I'm still wanting to have the chapter master alive - or in stasis like Guilliman or El'Jonson if need be. I'd just like to have him around. I do like that the chapter master's dreadnought would be passed on to the next one, though. I can see it being like a venerable in terms of decoration. Each successive chapter master adds their own regalia or litanies to it, so by the time a few chapter masters go by, it's incredibly ornate and intimidating. Well, if I'm not mistaken, most foundings haven't got specific dates anyhow. Just saying 'created in the X founding' is usually enough. Ah, alright. I'm sort of OCD, so I usually like having dates for things but I'm not about to go slapping a date on a Founding because of that I'll shoot for 15th-16th, most likely. Right around the middle so they have enough time to 'age' but not old enough that their dreadnoughts are playing bingo with Bjorn. Given the Tau are only really a threat after the most recent founding, I'm not sure about that.It'd mean a fair while before the chapter develops it's affinity for Dreadnoughts. Of course, you can just shift the moving-to-fight-Tau to after they go dread-crazy. ;) I was mostly shooting off of the timeline I found here, the T'au first-contact was the only thing I saw that could lead to a real 'engagement' that could cause the chapter master to be taken down. Since I'm shooting for earlier, now, the only forces I can really think of that could be a threat would be Orks, Eldar, Chaos, and possibly Dark Eldar. I've never been a fan of Orks, and Dark Eldar I haven't heard much about timeline wise, so Eldar or Chaos would be the most likely of 'chosen' enemies. Chaos is probably a bit overdone; what do you all think of Eldar? The chapter master takes the first and second companies to respond to a distress signal from an important world, and while there they discover Eldar. The Eldar cut off the chapter master and his retinue, and before the rest of the first and second companies can get to them they're cut down. They take their bodies back to the apothecaries who then inter them into dreadnoughts, starting the chapter's focus on dreads. No details yet, but I lightly touched on the idea of the chapter master writing a Codex of sorts for the chapter, describing how to best prepare to become a dreadnought. The proper mindset, how to keep sane, that sort of thing. The Codex Infinitio, or something like that. Again, thanks for the feedback guys. Keep it coming, it's helping! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecritter Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 If you're still looking for a reasonable estimation of Founding dates you can check here. B&C Timeline Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Hunter Ydalir Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Honestly The only reason I don't like Dread-heavy chapters in the fluff is not only their inherent problems with psychological stability, but that it really doesn't add much to the character of the chapter in my opinion and the entire process of justification of the dreads (which isn't unfeasible) just creates more problems than the uniqueness or amount of character it brings to the table. If they have more dreads than average because of their character trait of "X" then that's all well and good. To base your chapter around the dreads exclusively like this I think though is counter productive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezekial Gravestone Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 why not necrons for the enemys, while they are overall new force to the galaxy they have been around for alot longer, they are tough, and u can also have it they been at it for years, so while other chapters and ordos thought your chapter was going crazy attacking ghosts in the darkness as it was so when the necrons arravied no one really thought to connect it with the enemy u been hunting and warning others about sorry about takeing so long to reply after that place keeper, but someone toke my idea so i needed a new one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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