Another Stormraven question.

[Mezkh]

Just thinking on army ideas.

 

Is there something stopping a player from moving a Stormraven with a locator beacon flatout 24", and disembarking a Sterngard squad + priest out the back using skies of blood within 6" ( thus avoiding the scatter due to the beacon) and slagging something?

[JamesI]

Good question. It would depend on wording of the Skies of Blood Ability, but I don't have access to my codex to check it.

 

My guess is, yes it is legal.

[Grey Mage]

Skys of Blood: unit can deep strike out at any speed, using descent of angels if appropriate.

 

Locator Beacon: a unit wich deepstrikes within 6" doesnt scatter, if you were here last turn.

 

So no, its quite within the rules to drop out within 6" and blow something up.

 

You can also use PotMS to slag something and allow your sterngaurd to target what used to be inside of it.

[Gentlemanloser]

The Locator Beacon was in play (or on the table) in the last round, and is still in play.

 

I've never noticed that you could take a Locator Beacon as an upgrade to a Storm Raven, but if you can, there's no reaosn you can't DS within 6" of the SR and not scatter.

 

With SoB you can DS anywhere along the SR movement path, and the point chosen was outside 6" of it's final location, then you would scatter as normal.

[Brother Captain Ed]

If we're talking about the first turn, then I think GM would be correct since the beacon wasn't on the table the previous turn (there wasn't one). However, for any other turn, the beacon must be on the table, but I don't see anything saying the beacon must be stationary since last turn. So, yes, absolutely assuming your beacon was on the table.

[Grey Mage]

Sorry, but I have to ask.... but I get the feeling you misread what I typed. I didnt mention anything about first turn.....

[Brother Captain Ed]

Perhaps I did. But you did mention that the beacon must of been on the table since the previous turn. So aside from some sort of outflank (which I don't recall if a stormraven can do), then the first turn is the only time I can think of where the described maneuver would be illegal due to the previous turn stipulation.

 

Apologies if I misunderstood your point.

[Gentlemanloser]

IIRC it only needs to be on the table from the start of the curent round.

 

Which is why DSing vehicles with Locator Beacons can't work for other DSing units.

 

But if the SR starts play on the Table, it should be golden.

[Wildfire]

I believe DSing comes before movement.

[Gentlemanloser]

Disembarkation using Skies of Blood happens in the Movement Phase, it just uses the DS rules. :lol:

[Tanhausen]

DS is also in movement phase...but its the first thing you have to do, just like rolling reserves.

[Leonaides]

and if you can ds anywhere along the path of the raven then it must be able to move before you disembark, so on worries about an opponent trying to make you get out before movement if using the ds rules...

[Wildfire]

Disembarkation using Skies of Blood happens in the Movement Phase, it just uses the DS rules. :P

 

That's a problem, then. If Skies of Blood isn't acually deep striking, then by RAW a beacon wouldn't help it. I'd have to read the rule to be certain.

 

DS is also in movement phase...but its the first thing you have to do, just like rolling reserves.

 

Exactly my point. But that's apparently overruled by Skies of Blood, assuming Gentlemanloser is correct.

[Grey Mage]

Disembarkation using Skies of Blood happens in the Movement Phase, it just uses the DS rules. :cuss

 

That's a problem, then. If Skies of Blood isn't acually deep striking, then by RAW a beacon wouldn't help it. I'd have to read the rule to be certain.

 

DS is also in movement phase...but its the first thing you have to do, just like rolling reserves.

 

Exactly my point. But that's apparently overruled by Skies of Blood, assuming Gentlemanloser is correct.

 

Negatory- Reserves is done at the start of the turn. Most deep striking happens as part of the process of doing your reserves.... as noted on pg. 95, paragraph 5:

 

In the Movementphase when they arrive, these units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a deep striking transport vehicle.

 

As for the Stormraven, they are allowed to because of several things:

 

If the Stormraven has moved flat out then passngers may still disembark, but must do so as follows.

 

Note please that the vehicle MUST have moved flat out to exercise this rule.

 

Nominate one point over wich the which the stormraven had moved and deploy the squad as if it were deep striking on to that point..

 

Note again that this isnt the reserves rule for deepstriking, it just uses the mechanics for deploying as such. This also removes the rather pertinent but obvious issue of deep strikers needing to be in reserves.

 

The issue is very similar to the old question of Blood-claws and counter-attack. It says 'as if' then we use the rules for it. The locator beacon included.

[Meatman]

Disembarkation using Skies of Blood happens in the Movement Phase, it just uses the DS rules. B)

 

That's a problem, then. If Skies of Blood isn't acually deep striking, then by RAW a beacon wouldn't help it. I'd have to read the rule to be certain.

 

DS is also in movement phase...but its the first thing you have to do, just like rolling reserves.

 

Exactly my point. But that's apparently overruled by Skies of Blood, assuming Gentlemanloser is correct.

 

That's just silly. It's like claiming a librarian cannot use a locator beacon to stop scatter if he uses GOI.

[shatter]

hehe... so many people think that's illegal.

 

Comes down to which side of that fence you're on:

 

Deep Strike placement method movement = Deep Strike

or

Deep Strike placement method movement =/=Deep Strike

[Grey Mage]

Its rather similar to the issue with Vulkans Forgegauntlet, and my opinion is the same.

[Plague Angel]

I'm with Grey Mage: it says "as if it were deep-striking."

 

If it were deep-striking, the beacon would work, no question. So it should still work here. That's how I interpret the language, at least. I guess it depends on what your definition of "if" is?

 

Of course, I know people would argue with me in-game about it. Heck, I know exactly who would do it, too.

[4RC71C FOXX]

I'm not so convinced, I think the beacon is intended to be used in conjunction with units that are Deep Striking onto the board from another place (I.e. reserves-or in story terms a spaceship/ plane above the battlefield-so terminators teleporting in, jump packs dropping in, speeders flying in, land raiders being dropped in) All of these are coming from an outside source and using the beacons signal to home in on the certain location of the battlefield to get an accurate landing-imagine trying to guide a plane down onto a certain spot without some form of target to aim for (which the beacon provides) it would be difficult.

 

Now I am not an advocate of using fluff based information to derive rules from, and I admit that what I have written above does head towards that but do bear with me on this.

 

In the case of models within the raven using its locator beacon to more accurately land on the ground it doesn't seem to make sense to me, if I am sitting in the raven with it's locator beacon how does it help me to aim for the ground more accurately-surely that would require a beacon on the ground (the place I am going to) not in the raven (the place I am coming from)?

 

Would a locator beacon on a thunderhawk gunship dropping a land raider help it to land more accurately? I'm not sure it would.

 

I can certainly see from a RAW position how this could successfuly be argued that one can indeed use the beacon to accurately deploy a squad from inside the raven, but I can also see an arguement against it. The entry for Skies of Blood states that the unit deploys "as if it were deep striking onto that point" , it does not state that the unit deep strikes onto that point. It is a very subtle difference, but I think it is an important one, basically the unit deploys using the same method that a unit deep striking would (I.e. roll scatter and 2D6 to determine positioning) and I think this has been written to save space in the book.

 

As I have said earlier in the post this path of thought is primarily supported by more a story driven decision than a strictly RAW one, and as such I would not argue against the use of this rule in this situation, however I personally would not do this as I think, perhaps for a RAI or maybe just a more accurate story telling perspective it is not quite as the rule is intended.

 

There is on the other hand the posibility that the locator beacon is in fact a number of signal emiting devices which the raven carries, and it can turn them on and drop one onto the ground to allow more accurate landing for its on board troops (they then de-activate it, or it stops working after a certain time-to explain why the "game beacon" moves off with the raven), and this would provide a pretty fun story element in itself.

 

I think in conclusion that since this would require explaining and pointing out the specific rules to an opponent if tried (as they would likely wonder why my marines aren't scattering), tied to the fact that in my gaming group I think this would be seen as slightly underhanded and exploitative, that although I can see how it can be successfully argued I personally would not attempt it.

 

FOXX

[Plague Angel]

The entry for Skies of Blood states that the unit deploys "as if it were deep striking onto that point" , it does not state that the unit deep strikes onto that point. It is a very subtle difference, but I think it is an important one...

 

I honestly don't see a difference.I think the only distinction is that Deep Striking means a unit is coming from reserves. "As if it were deep striking" means that the unit isn't coming from reserves, but follows every other rule regarding Deep Strike — and that would include the beacon.

 

However! Whether it was your intent or not, you convinced me with your fluff-based reasoning of "how would a beacon on the Stormraven help them to see the ground better?" So while I remain convinced that it works, as the rules are written, I don't think I'd try it myself either. Even if there's nothing wrong with it rules-wise, the story-element of it would bug me now, even if it didn't bother my opponent.

[Gentlemanloser]

If you aren't actually DSing, and can't use the Locator Beacon, then you can't suffer form DS mishaps.

 

DS mishaps then bring another question.

 

If you (say on turn 4) disembark using these rules, and scatter, and suffer a mishap. What do you do? Presuming you aren't destroyed, somehow the unit can either be placed anywhere on the board by your opponent, or returned to Reserves.

 

Doesn't make much sense, but that's what would happen if you use the Deep Strike rules, to disembark, using the Deep Strike rules. :)

[Sabadin]

Not that I advocate using this, but for the "counts as deep strike =\= deep strike" arguement, is that really any different than this situation from the BRB FAQ?

 

Q: Can a unit that ʻmoves as jump infantryʼ deep strike?

(p52)

A: Yes.

[Kazehana]

If you aren't actually DSing, and can't use the Locator Beacon, then you can't suffer form DS mishaps.

 

Doesn't the rule lose it's entire point of existance, then? You can't use a beacon, and you're immune to mishap... What's left? Scatter? You could just say they scatter, then, rather than "Use Deep Striking rules, except for 2/3rds of them."

[Grey Mage]

Yeah.... 'as if deepstriking' means you use the deepstriking mechanics. Much like 'firing as a meltagun' allows you to use 2d6 armor penetration at half range.

[Plague Angel]

I thought that the possibility of mishap was the whole point of Skies of Blood. You're jumping out of a gunship that's moving incredibly fast, even by 40k's vehicle standards. You may get hurt.