Dualhammers Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Hey guys, So I am currently typing up the outline for the first draft of my first ever DIY Space Marine chapter (Loyalist). My question is simply - is there anyhting else I should know? I've read all the DIY guides, all the suggested reading, and done my best to memorize the dos and don'ts. Is there anything important to know outside of these guides? I've been reading some of the in-progress DIYs and it seems like a common criticism is a lack of knowledge about the various tidbits of information the writers include. Either not knowing that Inquisitor XYJ actually does have some obscure reference when the writer says "not much is know about him" or not realizing that a Space Marine chapter would never colonize in this area of space because of reason B. I don't want to look stupid first time out - so aside from just a general "You should read the Lexicanum" is there anywhere in particular I should look? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donkey Kong Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Correction. You should not read Lexicanum. Not first, anyway. It has this terrible tendency of being wrong. I must say that I'm impressed, reading the guides is quite a trek. Good on you. One problem I can see is that you're reading IA's in progress. Read what's in the Librarium. Just don't read mine, it's being redone :( . This is my personal favorite. These are good too: Arctic Lions Warrior Eternal If I'm any judge, I recommend you do not read any of the alternate heresy articles just yet, and avoid the White Hands in general for all the controversy they caused. Maybe you could read it just to get a feel for what some people won't like, whatever floats your boat. If you have any questions, ask. Most of us don't bite, and if we do it's because we care. So, if you're curious about whether or not your Chapter can have members that fly like Superman, have Batman Utility Belts, or have giant creature cavalry, don't toss it in before you ask about how far the idea can go. Some of these suggestions may seem outrageous, and maybe they are, but I got shot down for attempting to stick in a Land Raider - Exorcist hybrid tank. Listen to suggestions. Even if you don't like them, and aren't going to change completely, listen. Maybe you can lessen the blow. Do not be stubborn. Your ideas will never be the best when they are unrefined, and that's fine. That's why this board exists. Keep your focus on your chapter. Not your chapter's home world. Not your chapter's allies. Not your chapter's victories and defeats and that one really cool battle where your chapter master totally showed those eldar. Your. Chapter. Finally, just give it a shot. If you do bad the first time, no worries. It's your first time. Mine didn't go very well either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madwolf Shadowmane Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 My suggestion is to do your best to bring "your" vision to life. No matter what you do or what you read you will not please everyone. Just make sure not to lose your core vision during the multiple rewrites. And always keep your chin up. Madwolf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dualhammers Posted March 16, 2011 Author Share Posted March 16, 2011 @KingHongKong Thanks for the quick reply. More precisely I've been reading the IAs so that I can learn to identify common problems with drafts. Hopefully as a hone my senses I will learn to perceive the critiques I am reading on other people's work in my own so that I can correct them myself - less work for all of you. As for the Lexicanum, I only mentioned it because it seems like history and accuracy of details is extremely important in these IAs, and sadly I have limited access to the Codex Books and limited time to read them in depth so my knowledge on dates, times, and obscure relationships between major characters and events is a bit rusty. That seems to be a big issue with a lot of in-progress IAs so I want to try and find a good accurate resource so I don't make any more silly errors like that than I have to. Speaking of chapters I suppose this is the best time to post an idea. I haven't fleshed out combat style, homeworld, or anything of that kind but I do have a characteristic for my chapter I want to incorporate. That is an obsession with history and oral tradition. In many Earth culture's, especially in Norse culture, the ability to tell stories and share oral history was of supreme merit. Now granted in the Imperium people record history so it isn't entirely the same, but I want the same kind of focus on personal history to exist inside my chapter. Perhaps even going so far as to have all Battle Brothers carry great tomes into battle filled with blank pages on which they write the stories of their battles as they fight them (after all the Xenos and Heretics are dead of course). It won't be the only thing that characterizes the chapter, but I think it would be an interesting aspect to them. EDIT: Just to make it clear, this is very different than the Blood Raven's obsession with finding relics and past artifacts. It isn't about discovering who they were rather it is about keeping record of who they are since they feel that only with that knowledge can they be the best Space Marines they can be. What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapter Master Ignis Domus Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Don't worry. It's not that everyone hates you; it's just that they hate your ideas, your soul, and your general state of being. ;) Seriously, while you should listen to criticism and give it serious consideration, on minor points where someone might think that something doesn't sound good, you should listen to their thoughts, weigh them, and accept/reject them. I personally would lean on the side of listening, as many people have been doing this for years. Note that if you're writing an IA and asking for advice, the "It's your chapter; do whatever you want, man." mantra does not apply. This doesn't mean that you are held to these standards for all and eternity, but that when asking for advice, it is expected that you'll listen to it and try to create a semi-acceptable, as you can't please everyone, IA/IT/OTHER. For now I must say Adieu(with apologies to the French). I may think of more later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dualhammers Posted March 16, 2011 Author Share Posted March 16, 2011 Thanks for the advice, although I just realized I copied the storytelling aspect of the Space Wolves Rune Priests without realizing it. Now I think I need to scrap that idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andurin Marvak Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Thanks for the advice, although I just realized I copied the storytelling aspect of the Space Wolves Rune Priests without realizing it. Now I think I need to scrap that idea. Not at all. Who says the Wolves are the only chapter who could be influenced that way? Remember, there's 1,000 chapters in existence. And an even greater variety of cultures they could stem from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Forcystus Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 My advice: Brace for impact, some critics can be tough but dont let them discourage you, rather see it as a sign that they think you can do better. Other than always stick to your vision, even if you have to alter some details in order to make it fit into this shared universe we all love to play in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Has you read my beautiful guide, linked in my sig? It's very long - it should suffice to keep you out of trouble for a while... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Debonair Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Hey guys, So I am currently typing up the outline for the first draft of my first ever DIY Space Marine chapter (Loyalist). My question is simply - is there anyhting else I should know? I've read all the DIY guides, all the suggested reading, and done my best to memorize the dos and don'ts. Is there anything important to know outside of these guides? I've been reading some of the in-progress DIYs and it seems like a common criticism is a lack of knowledge about the various tidbits of information the writers include. Either not knowing that Inquisitor XYJ actually does have some obscure reference when the writer says "not much is know about him" or not realizing that a Space Marine chapter would never colonize in this area of space because of reason B. I don't want to look stupid first time out - so aside from just a general "You should read the Lexicanum" is there anywhere in particular I should look? I'd definitely recommend scanning the Librarium, and checking out some of the IAs in there. :P The big piece of advice I'd give is: never take criticism personally. It's never intended as an attack on your or your work, and even though the harshet criticisms can be pretty soul-crushing and disheartening at times, adressing them objectively will always improve your work. Not that I know from experience or anything. -_- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tyler Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 In addition to not taking feedback personally, don't feel obligated to actually following feedback if it's not what you want to do. Ultimately, a DIY Chapter is your own. As recent discussions have shown, GW doesn't feel constrained to absolutely limiting the background, giving authors a bit of flexibility. You have as much flexibility, if not more, in developing your own DIY. If you want to flesh out your DIY Chapter in paintstaking detail, great. If you'd rather limit the detail, that's fine, too. Don't feel confined to fitting your Chapter into the "shared universe" concept so beloved by fanatics of the Liber Astartes forum if you'd rather do something that might be viewed as being too different. Conversely, if you want to make your Chapter mesh as well as possible with the established background material, that's fine, too. The thing to remember is that everyone, even GW and its employees, has slightly different interpretations of the fluff. Certain big things are fairly easy and tend to share a common interpretation. There are quite a few areas in the established background material, however, where there is room for interpretation. Far too often, players mistake their own interpretation and opinion for absolute fact, and you'll find that a significant portion of the controversies in this forum stem from those differing interpretations. So do whatever makes the army fun for you. Take all advice as honest and intended to be helpful and constructive, making the changes you want to make and ignoring (politely) those bits of feedback that you don't want to incorporate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malthe Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Hi Dualhammer :P As a Liber newbie myself I have a bit of advice for you as well: Give it a go! If you suddenly have a great idea (of any section of an AI or the generel theme of your chapter) write it down and post it. People will usually tear 90 % of it apart, but then you're left with 10 % gold for the final draft! Crafting an Index Astartes article on this board is a bit like a smith making a sword of folded steel. You will have to hammer it out and fold it together a hundred times, but it will be worth it in the end! Just try as you go a long, if you get something horribly wrong, people will tell you (that's what the Liber is for!) and you will have the option to change what you have written. Most good IA on these boards can be described with a very short sentence; which is the generel image of the chapter. Note that I say 'image' rather than 'concept' or 'idea'. This is because it is much easier getting a grasp of something you can picture: Symbology is king! This is the same effect that religion takes advantage of: In the Bible there is absolutely know mention of how Jesus looks, yet we always picture him as slightly above average height, with long hair to about his shoulders, and a slightly sad look on his face (that or dying on the cross, which is an even stronger image). Try to emulate this; write something the people will be able to picture! And try to have just one concrete image (in your head) expressing the essence of your chapter. Of course you don't have to have one when you begin your DIY, but eventually most people will :P And a final note; don't post it all at once. A mistake I have committed a number of times is spending several hours writing a complete draft of an AI before posting it, only to have 90 % of it shot down when I did post it. Not only is it inefficient; less people will spend time to read it, and critisism will be less focused, than if you post one or two sections at a time. I have tried to do this myself, in my current AI (Foe Eaters), but regretfully I acidentally filled out all the empty sections with a sentence or two, and now I have recieved a lot of feedback on those parts :D Which is great, but unfocused and not what I am looking for at this time. Fortunatly people on this board are so nice that if you ask them for feedback on a specific section, you will nearly always get it! But do yourself the favour of only posting things you actually do want feedback on! Cheers, mate and good luck! p.s. The Oral history part is great, do use it! But if it's 'oral history' why would they write it down? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightrawenII Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 12 posts and not a single mention of fearsome Imp of the Liber? What a shame... :P I've been reading some of the in-progress DIYs and it seems like a common criticism is a lack of knowledge about the various tidbits of information the writers include. Either not knowing that Inquisitor XYJ actually does have some obscure reference when the writer says "not much is know about him" or not realizing that a Space Marine chapter would never colonize in this area of space because of reason B. That's because Authors are relatively new in the hobby and because the Liber is full of bearded scribes with all sorts of obscure knowledge. Don't worry, the true wisdom comes with time and experience... I don't want to look stupid first time out. You know, I had similar worries before my first intercourse... Let's say, I enjoy this physical activity since then. :D You may read Lexicanum. It had this terrible tendency of being wrong. Corrected for you. Lexicanum is tad better now. As for the Lexicanum, I only mentioned it because it seems like history and accuracy of details is extremely important in these IAs... 'Extreme importance' is an exaggeration. Knowing the dates of major events, like arrival of Tyranids, 'is' important, but all other things are easy to fix. Thanks for the advice, although I just realized I copied the storytelling aspect of the Space Wolves Rune Priests without realizing it. Now I think I need to scrap that idea. ... or the KHK's Death Heads Executors... it doesn't matter, ideas are often recycled in the course of Liber existence. Has you read my beautiful guide, linked in my sig? It's very long - it should suffice to keep you out of trouble for a while... Oh, yes. The Octaguide guides you towards the bright and wonderful horizon of complete and acceptable DIY Chapter... but there is no saying that you will arrive at this point safely. *Some* people are beyond redemption. :P Edit: Damn these ninja's! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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