My feeble attempts at discussing the next Chaos Codex at GD

[firestorm40k]

Hello all, I just thought I’d share my sort-of discussions regarding a future Chaos Codex with two members of the development team at yesterday’s Games Day ‘event’.

 

Basically, I spoke to Jervis Johnson (head designer, apparently) and Matt Ward (yeah, I know, I know…). Now, I could have ranted at them with four years of hatred towards our lack-lustre Codex, but I thought it would be more productive (and less antagonistic) if I approached them with a friendly smile (well, what pass as one from me :P ) and my own personal thoughts/desires on our next Codex.

 

In a nutshell, more options regarding things like vehicles, specifically variants of Rhinos and Land Raiders – I said that the reasons for restricting the loyalist Marines with what they can do to theirs don’t apply to Chaos (we don’t have angry Tech Priests after us), so if we want to, say, put Assault Ramps on our Rhinos, there’s no one to stop us!

 

I also tried to get across that Chaos Marine armies (whether you go for Renegades or Legions) can broadly fit in to two approaches which could shape the development of this Codex – firstly the ‘Black Crusade’, which is about throwing the full force of what your army/legion does best till you opponent has nothing standing (I guess this could include your World Eaters Berzerker assault force, or an Iron Warriors siege force, or the relentless march of the Death Guard). The second approach is the Cultist/Ambush/Terror approach – the one where you don’t have the resources for a full scale invasion, but you’ve already sent your agents (be they infiltrating Marines or Cultists) to defeat your enemy before they’ve even realised they’re at war – assassinating commanders, sabotaging and destroying tanks, that sort of thing (obviously, this is your Night Lords, Alpha Legion, perhaps Word Bearers army). Either way, whichever approach should still allow themed, or Legion based lists, if that’s what Chaos players wanted

 

In my conversations with both Jervis and Matt, I started off saying that I’d like to see Special Characters that add army wide abilities, which got very strong nods of understanding from both of them. The problem I immediately hit was that they both pretty much said that they’re not going to be involved with the development of Chaos Marines; Jervis said that he would pass on my comments thought (whether he does is another thing!).

 

You may find Matt Ward’s response more interesting: he basically said blatantly that he was not going to be working on Chaos. Yes, that’s right, you can all breathe a sigh of relief! ;) ;) Then, more interestingly, he looked around for the other member of the team at Games Day, who was absent every time I went to the developers’ area, but would have liked to speak to – a certain Mr Phil Kelly. Now, (cue wild speculation) judging by this, I got the strong impression that Phil Kelly is likely to be involved in the development – perhaps even writing it?

 

That was the only serious nugget that I found of comfort from Jervis or Matt Ward to be honest. They both talked about there being a lot of potential with Chaos Marines that a future codex could build upon. Matt Ward went further, basically saying in so many words that he realised the Chaos codex is disliked and that it didn’t really achieve what the later, more recent Codices have. He also said that the Codices from Space Wolves onwards should give more of the shape of a Chaos Marine Codex, in terms of increased amount of options. Hopefully, like some Codices, that means under-priced/over powered (delete as appropriate ;) ) units like these other ones, too :D He also said about the current Chaos Codex that it offers a good basis from which to start developing a new one. Not sure I agree with him, but I’m hoping he means that it is something that can be expanded and improved upon, rather than just recycling it…

 

So, I had gone to Games Day with the intention of getting in to a really intense discussion about giving Chaos a codex of which it is worthy. I think I didn’t really speak to the right people for that (if only I’d have been able to find Phil Kelly!), so I think ultimately I got some insubstantial platitudes. I was heartened that a) Matt Ward won’t be writing the next Chaos Codex, and b ) there was the suggestion that Phil Kelly is at the very least going to be involved in the development of our next codex.

 

So, that’s all I have to offer I’m afraid, but I hope it provides some fuel for discussion and/or speculation.

 

Thanks for reading, now fire away! B)

[Bearingtheword]

Sounds like good....no wait.... great news on one hand, and no news on the other.

 

Thanks for having the balls to go and try to find some answers for us though, Firestorm. Hopefully we won't be waiting too long to find out what is going to be happening as I have lately had these nasty thoughts of using the SW 'dex as a "counts as" for my Word Bearers and am tempted to start cutting off my ears just for having said thoughts, hehe.

 

Frustratingly it's like watching a pot of water come to a boil... it takes forever if you have to stand there and watch it....

 

~BtW

[Kristoff]

Frustratingly it's like watching a pot of water come to a boil... it takes forever if you have to stand there and watch it....

 

Especially if you have to wait for someone else to turn the burner on!

[Saa]

*tap dances like a pro* lalalalalalala lala lalalalalalala

 

No fluff rapage for Chaos then. Happy days.

 

Phil Kelly writes a good Codex. I sincerely hope you're correct

 

Saa

[Menkeroth]

Yes, thank you, Firestorm, at least smth we know already ;) And i agree if Ward doesn't involved in the development of the codex, so it's great! And if Phil Kelly does... i'll be sacrificing dozens of loyalists to him and Tzeentch :yes: Hope we'll get other good news later...

[chaplain belisarius]

phil kelly? writing the chaos dex...i hope so! he writes a good codex...(gw should clone phil kelly and get him to do all the codexes in my opinion!)

[greatcrusade08]

didnt phil kelly write the space wlves dex? as a yard stick it still remains one of the most competative armies out there..

tbh im not sure if thats a good or bad thing..

[thade]

Interesting; Ward on record saying he's not working on the Chaos codex. And from someone who has a reasonable number of posts. It is my sincere hope (and belief) that you are not trolling us. <3

[greatcrusade08]

Interesting; Ward on record saying he's not working on the Chaos codex. And from someone who has a reasonable number of posts. It is my sincere hope (and belief) that you are not trolling us. <3

 

I know firestorm personally, i can tell you hes one of the most trustworthy people i know, if he says something, you can believe it ;)

[Brother Ambroz]

In my conversations with both Jervis and Matt, I started off saying that I’d like to see Special Characters that add army wide abilities, which got very strong nods of understanding from both of them.

 

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

 

Other than this I like the sound of it. Pleeeeeease no special characters that transform the army......nobody likes what it did to C:SM. I know it's the way of things but still I'm going to fight it with every last breath.

[thade]

I know firestorm personally, i can tell you hes one of the most trustworthy people i know, if he says something, you can believe it ;)

I was hoping someone I knew better would vouch for him. :( He now has my trust.

 

Phil Kelly writing a new Chaos dex may see me paint my second marine army. Nightlords or Bezerkers. Decisions, decisions...

[alphariusomegon20]

You may find Matt Ward’s response more interesting: he basically said blatantly that he was not going to be working on Chaos.

 

Holy Mary, mother of god, someone finally listened to us.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like Ward's rules generally, but his fluff is absolute pants.

 

 

 

 

In my conversations with both Jervis and Matt, I started off saying that I’d like to see Special Characters that add army wide abilities, which got very strong nods of understanding from both of them.

 

nobody likes what it did to C:SM.

 

Speak for yourself, I like my twin linkage melta and flamer death.

[darth_giles]

didnt phil kelly write the space wlves dex? as a yard stick it still remains one of the most competative armies out there..

tbh im not sure if thats a good or bad thing..

If they're using any of the current chapter codices for our codex, we're going to do well.

 

Interesting; Ward on record saying he's not working on the Chaos codex. And from someone who has a reasonable number of posts. It is my sincere hope (and belief) that you are not trolling us. <3

I wouldn't be surprised if the bloody thing was already mostly written, and they're just waiting on the Cron re-release to pass.

 

In my conversations with both Jervis and Matt, I started off saying that I’d like to see Special Characters that add army wide abilities, which got very strong nods of understanding from both of them.

 

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

 

Other than this I like the sound of it. Pleeeeeease no special characters that transform the army......nobody likes what it did to C:SM. I know it's the way of things but still I'm going to fight it with every last breath.

Agreed. Special Characters just obliterate an army's chances at having character and style. I'd rather see them returned to Citadel Journal hell and de-sanctioned from tournaments. Now, having the list without the special character would be nice.

[Iron-Daemon Forge]

(if only I’d have been able to find Phil Kelly!),

 

Phil was that the Dreadfleet area for intro games.

 

As for codex chaos. Could be cool, Phil has done the Warhammer Fantasy Warriors of Chaos. Ether way alway been a fan of Phil Kelly codex.

 

IP

[Lexington]

Nice to hear. :)

 

Really, I'm mostly shocked that Ward was there, given the general feelings towards him in the community. I think he's the worst thing that's ever happened to GW's IP, but he gets points for showing up.

[Dreachon]

Oh thank and praise be given to the powers of the warp that Ward is not gonna writhe it, no fluff abominations, praise that Kelly will likely writhe our codex.

This makes me so much at ease with the future at the codex, it's also nice to see GW realised it's stupidity with the csm light codex.

[the jeske]

Its not a very good thing if a desinger has to write two codex/army books with near identical mechanics . one will always be a lot weaker.

[Brother Ambroz]

Speak for yourself, I like my twin linkage melta and flamer death.

 

Sorry I just remember what it's like to use legion/chapter rules and not have to have one HQ slot taken up by a generic character that isn't included in your own fluff.

[darknightdrako]

Speak for yourself, I like my twin linkage melta and flamer death.

 

Sorry I just remember what it's like to use legion/chapter rules and not have to have one HQ slot taken up by a generic character that isn't included in your own fluff.

 

Agreed. They should have your HQ choice (not SP) then have the option to buy an ability that would change how the army plays. Furthermore I showed a slight grin when I heard Phil Kelly MIGHT be writing the next CSM dex.

 

Hehehe.... who know in the future there might be Chaos Legion Marines Count as Imperial Marines.

[totgeboren]

I think it's a really good thing that Ward isn't writing our codex because of his incredibly bad story-telling skills, i.e. his fluff is always horrible. However, Phil Kelly does have the Wolf McWolf riding giant wolves into battle, which is also the most powerful codex in the game, and which also plays totally contrary to how the fluff portrays them.

 

We might as well end up with a hordy list of ancient legionaries who make up for their lack of skills with great numbers!

 

Hopefully it will not be that bad, but it could well be if he decides that the Champions are the focus, and the henchmen should just be there to escort them around. He will also most likely try and make the codex less powerful than the SW codex, because of lots of almost political reasons, and GW often seem to want to point out that there is no codex creep, at least not when it comes to chaos and xenos!

[Brother Nihm]

who know in the future there might be Chaos Legion Marines Count as Imperial Marines

That would be absolutely hilarious given the hate and dislike we've had to put up with (mainly from Loyalist players) since 2007 whenever we voiced objections over the current book and expressed thoughts about possible Counts-As...

[Rik Riorik]

I honestly think the internet community is bent out of shape when it comes to Matt Ward or indeed when it comes to many things. But I do like Phil Kelly better, but that's more down to him being an old timer in my book than anything else. But I digress.

 

Tis slightly boring that we don't really know much about anything and if you don't push new things at your own Games Day then whatever is it good for? Well lots of things perhaps, but still.

[firestorm40k]

Thanks for having the balls to go and try to find some answers for us though, Firestorm.

Yes, thank you, Firestorm, at least smth we know already ;)

Thank you, I just hoped that I’d be able to get across to SOMEONE from GW that if they are working on a new Chaos Codex, that there is so much they can do to get it right this time – or a great deal better at the very least.

 

It is my sincere hope (and belief) that you are not trolling us. <3

I know firestorm personally, i can tell you hes one of the most trustworthy people i know, if he says something, you can believe it ;)

Thanks for vouching for me :) The situation was, I had just spoken to Jervis, and he himself had said I was better off speaking to Matt Ward or Phil Kelly. When I was eventually able to speak to Matt, I specifically said that Jervis had told me he might be a good person to discuss Chaos Marines with. He basically said ‘I’m not sure why he said that’ (in so many words), and he started looking round for someone else – I assume this to be Phil Kelly, the only other developer around.

 

It is only speculation, but I can help but feel (and hope and wish) that that, combined with his admission he’s not involved with the new Codex, makes me believe Phil Kelly IS involved.

 

In my conversations with both Jervis and Matt, I started off saying that I’d like to see Special Characters that add army wide abilities, which got very strong nods of understanding from both of them.

 

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

 

Other than this I like the sound of it. Pleeeeeease no special characters that transform the army......nobody likes what it did to C:SM. I know it's the way of things but still I'm going to fight it with every last breath.

Yeah, to be honest, I didn’t bring that up as a ‘be-all-and-end-all’ suggestion to, but rather as something that could be a simple way of ‘flavouring’ legion specific lists.

 

I must admit, I’m a fan of the way the loyalist Codex does it, there’s a guy at our gaming club who runs a very effective, but very fluffy and well-themed Raven Guard list with Shrike. GreatCrusade08 also runs an effective scout based list that often includes a ‘counts-as’ Khan Captain – having a squad of out-flanking Marines doesn’t go against the feel of a Scout army IMHO.

 

I’m a recent convert to the using characters when they’re not who they’re meant to be – for ages I was against it, but I’ve recently started running a ‘counts-as’ Khârn the Betrayer – his rules are perfect for my own character, a suicidal mad-man imbued with the essence of a powerful daemon.

 

(if only I’d have been able to find Phil Kelly!),

 

Phil was that the Dreadfleet area for intro games.

Yeah, I go the impression he was very busy with other things, so I think I might write to him, see if that has any effect.

[DarkMark]

No fluff rapage

 

Somebody typing this has no business complaining about other people's ability to write. :P

 

 

 

@firestrom Good effort mate! B)

[grimz]

Goodwork mate!

 

I'm in the same boat as you with character unlocking specific rules, originally I was against it, but doesn't seem to bother me that much anymore. From a designer point of view, I wonder if it makes these builds easier to balance also?

 

Only thing I would have stressed is that Chaos = Bad Guys, not Chaos = Marines with Random abilities and effects...