Phoenix Knights (take 2)

[TrashMan]

MORE LENGTHY AND IN-DEPTH ARTICLE: <--- ALWAYS UP TO DATE

 

http://warhammer40kfanon.wikia.com/wiki/Knights_of_Vengance

 

 

Tabletop rules (chapter history not fixed yet)

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=237544

 

 

Short version below:

 

 

 

ORIGINS

 

Initally named Angels of Fire, this Dark Angel sucessor chapter has had a disasterous start. Shortly after it's creation, the chapter fleet and the DA training cadre was to make way to their newly assigned homeworld at the far edges of Segmentum Ultima. Mere moments after entering the warp, the fleet was attacked by a chaos war fleet and beset by deamons. Exit from the warp was impossible and the geller fields were malfunctioning. A desperate battle to repel boarders followed, lasting for days. Astartes and man alike fought against a neverending horde of hellish nightmares. They sold their lives dearly, but to no avail. Just when it looked like all hope was lost, the survivors felt a new mighty presence appearing in the warp, causing confusion among chaos forces. What exactly happened is still a mistery, but the small window of opportunity is all the chapter needed to escape the warp.

 

When they returned to real space, the survivors realised things were worse then they thought. More than 3/4 of the chapter was lost, along with their command battle barge and all senior commanders and almost the entire training cadre.

Worse, it appeared that in realspace a lot more time has passed. As far as the rest of the universe knew, they were missing for 300 years. And most shockingly of all, the exposure to potent warp energies caused mutations in the gene-seed, the full extent and implication of which were not yet clear. The few survivors of the training cadre, the only holders of the secrets of the Dark Angels, viewed the mutations with suspicion. Beliving the chapter is doomed as their tainted geneseed, they returned to their parent chapter as soon as possible to report back. The Dark Angels made a decision: The Phoenix Knights are corrupt and unworthy inheritors; the Unforgiven must not be sullied by association with such marines. They must not be permitted into the fold, and cannot be entrusted with knowledge of the Fallen.

 

While that was going on, it was time for the survivors to decide what to do, and most looked at Librarian Avernus Sidh for guidance. Yet he in turned deffered to Arturian Draco, the young but promising captain and gifted orator and diplomat.

 

After a lot of deliberation, Arturian quickly contacted the Mechanicus, worried about the chapters future if the geneseed were to degrade irrevocably. The tech-priests of Mars relished in the opportunity to perform tests and study the effects of these mutations, and Arturians pledge to support the Mechanicus also helped.

 

The gene-seed degradation turned out to be far less severe than the DA thought and was quickly stabilised. Instead of dying out, the chapter survived and thrived. But the abandoment from their parent chapter had a far more important impact on the Phoenix Knights. Without any guadance or supervision from the DA, Arturian was free to change the chapter is ways that would be impossible otherwise - to forge a new identity and purpose.

 

 

GENE-SEED

 

Phoenix Knights marines used to have pure Dark Angel gene-seed, but it mutated substantily in the warp.

The mutations include missing Bethcers Gland, and diminished sense of smell and taste (while still higher than that of a normal human, they are far below other Astartes), and the Murcanoids substance provides reduced protection from cold.

On the positive side, the lifespan and regenerative potential of marines seems to have been increased and a distinct aptitude for pyrokinesis became evident among their librarians.

But the most interesting mutation concernes the rejection rate of implants. While it is higher on average, it has substantially decreased with older aspirants making implantation just as viable even for candidates over 20; in fact, the PK prefer older older candidates because of this. When rejection does occur, it is rarely fatal, and the process has to be repeated with a new implant. Waht this means is that the Chapter requires more gene-seed compared to other chapters to fill it's ranks, but valueable recruits are almost never lost during the process.

 

Because of their near-anihilation history, the geneseed changes and in honor of all the fallen, tha Chapter has taken on a new name of Phoenix Knights, symbolising their return from the ashes of defeat.

 

 

HOMEWORLD

 

Sub-sector Vaynar, located at the outer "bend" of the Centaurus Arm, in the Boardicea Sector. Avalon system is the home of the chapter and the central system in the region, which is relatively peaceful compared to most of the galaxy. The far-flung location of this sub-sector is a double-edged sword. While imperial administration is light and people are far more "free" here, the sector is also more lightly defended and more removed from aid, should things go amiss.

Locations of interest in the sub-sector:

• Avalon Prime is a lush, terrestrial world, covered in forests, hills and plains. Moderately developed and populated, sprinkled with small towns and villages and a few large cities. The Chapter Monastery is located here.
  
• Vixis, a massive jungle moon in the same system, used by the chapter for training. Contains training facilities, a small chapter base and several well-fortified cities (dangerous flora and fauna). The Chapter found an ancient bunker with many relics burried deep beneath a mountain.
  
• Ducis Major, a tectonicly active planet in the neighbor system, heavily mined. Main source of materials for ht hungy forge-world
  
• Odolan III, a observation and research outpost, repair yard and naval base
  
• Van Secundus, a newer forge world that is rapidly expanding. Main supplier of the chapter.
  

 

 

COMBAT DOCTRINE

 

The Phoenix Knights diverge from the Codex Astartes and are generally very liberal with it's interpretation. This is partially due to the circumstances and composition of their forces. The Chapter has been almost destroyed three times, and due to heavy fighting the number of true Astartes has never exceeded over 600. For this reason, the chapter employs false astartes (known as Guard Exemplar) to bolster their strength. The GE are modeled after Luther and other False Astartest of the Great Crusade and this causes significant friction between the Dark Angels and the Phoenix Knights - alotugh the true reasons why remain hidden from the Knights.

The PK value flexibility and planing above all else and excell in heavy assault and guerilla warfare.

On defense they build smaller, spartan monastaries that are well defended for their size, prefering mobile forces over static defences. On all planets under their charge, they invest heavily in orbital defences and air superiority, prefering to not let the enemy land at all.

Due to large number of capable (non-marine) personel and good ties with the AM, they posses a large array of basic marine equipement.

 

 

BELIEFS

 

The chapter practices and beliefs are shaped by the basic knowledge imparted by the trainig cadre (the chapter has no knowledge of the Fallen) and by Arturians reforms and influence.

 

Outside of combat, the Phoenix Knights have a policy of building their monasteries near villages in remote, forested areas. Battle brothers are expected to do all of their training and chores in the monastery, but are allowed to mingle with the local populace. The PK spend less time in prayer and contemplation than most other chapters, instead dedicating part of their time to helping out the local communities. As Arturian himself once put it: "We are the defenders of humanity. Therefore, we must never loose sight of what we are fighting for...who we are fighting for!"

 

As a result, the PK marines are heavily invested in the lives and safety of the people they protect, and their constant presence and protection won them the respect of the sub-sector. They even refer to the civilians as Little Brothers/Sisters. It was an ork attack and killing of some of their "little brothers" that sparked the Vengance Crusade.

Tech-marines and apothecaries are held in great respect within the Chapter, as all marines are encouraged to share knowledge and bond in general. This has the added benefit of every PK marine knowing basic field aid and generally being more tech-savy than than average. Since most marines are capable of minor field repairs and mantainance, this frees the tech-marines somewhat, enabling them to devote themselves to upgrading equipment.

 

"If knowledge is strength, then let us share that strength among us!"

 

- Chapter Master Arturian

 

Another peculiarity of the chapter is their beliefs. They emphasize faith in humanity and their virtues, with the Emperor and the Lion - their Father - being a shining example. They call upon the Emperor and belive in his protection and power. Arturian himself is regarded as highly as the Lion given that he defined the chapters new identity, and many marines shout his name in battle.

 

 

HISTORY

 

Roughly 250.M40 - chapter sets fort for their new homeworld and gets trapepd in the warp.

 

Roughly 483.M40 - the chapter emerges from the warp. A little more than 200 battle-brothers survive. The entire command structure is gone too. The Chapter master, chaplain and most captains, including the entire traingin cadre are lost. In the same year, Arturian takes command over the Chapter.

 

484-500.M40 - Chapter takes command over the Vaynar system, killing the corrupt planetary governor with the help of Inquisitor Dvorak. Without anyone to oppose him, Arturian uses his massive charisma and oratory skill to slowly institue massive changes within the chapter, re-shaping it's beliefs, practices and organization.

 

500-600.M40 - The entire system undergoes a similar reconstruction, with Arturian instuting changes that revitalize the entire system. An entire army of tech-priests and servitors is created to spearhead the massive construction projects going on everywhere. Arturian builds ties with the forge world of Van Secundus, the AM, Inquisition and Administratorium.

The AdMech is intrigued with the gene-mutation. Relations with the DA are strained upon their meeting.

 

614.M40 - After a large ork raid and loss of a strike cruiser with many battle-brothers, Arturian introduces False Astartes (Guard Exampler) into the structure of the chapter.

 

653 - 700. M40 - Vengance Crusade. The Chapter strikes into the ork-held territory and cleanses several planets of orks. First deployment of Land Raider Reaper and the ork virus. Virus deemed a faliure. Master of the Forge Satorian begins forging STC printouts to canonize PK-created equipment.

 

724. M40 - an ancienct, unknown class of battleship found in space. After a clensing action it is towed back to Mars and handed over to the AM along with the forged STC data for the Reaper Land Raider.

 

734.M40 - Vixis Campaign. Tyranid Splinter fleet attacks the Vaynar system. It is stopped on Vixis by the combined forces of The Phoenix Knights, Eldar of Ilyaden, the Imperial Guard and a few elements of other chapters that responded to the destress call. A hidden underground complex found on the moon, pre-dating the Horus Heresy. Massive library and some relics found within. Relics used to further improve relations to AM and convince them to hand over the ancient battleship, "Sword of the Stars" over to the chapter.

 

736.M40 - Arturian arranges a secret non-agression treaty between the eldar of Ilyaden and the PK. As long as the eldar do not attack the IoM, the PK will not attack them. It took great effort, but the tenius treaty still holds, making it the longest temporary alliance with the eldear in the history of the IoM. While the treaty does not demand or imply any help, the two factions have on several occasions helped eachother.

Edited August 1, 2012 by TrashMan

[Cromat]

Hello there, always good to see a new IA. *takes reading glasses from servo skull* Let's see what we've got.

 

When they returned to real space, the survivors realised things were worse then they thought. More than 3/4 of the chapter was lost, along with their command battle barge and all senior commanders and the entire training cadre.

Worse, it appeared that in realspace a lot more time has passed. As far as the rest of the universe knew, they were missing for 300 years. And most shockingly of all, the time spent in the warp caused mutations in the gene-seed, the full extend and implication of which were not yet clear.

 

First off, I have to say this isn't a good way to start an IA. Don't know how experienced you are with the Liber but getting lost in the warp isn't a popular story element around here. I highly suggest you cut out the lost for 300 years bit. The ambush part is fine (not to mention quite sneaky. Sort of like a certain Legion of Alpha perhaps? :D). Also, if something big and holy and uber awesome that looks like Big E or The Lion shows up to save your fellows, then they must be REALLY awesome. More awesome than even the GW chapters! (hint: this is not a good thing.)

 

Phoenix Knights marines used to have pure Dark Angel gene-seed, but it mutated substantially in the warp.

The mutations include missing Bethcers Gland, and diminished sense of smell and taste (while still higher than that of a normal human, they are far below other Astartes), and the Murcanoids substance provides reduced protection from cold.

On the positive side, the lifespan and regenerative potential of marines seems to have been increased and a distinct aptitude for pyrokinesis became evident.

But the most interesting mutation concerns the rejection rate of implants. While it is higher on average, it has substantially decreased with older aspirants making implantation just as viable even for candidates over 20; in fact, the PK prefer older older candidates because of this. When rejection does occur, it is rarely fatal, and the process has to be repeated with a new implant, meaning the Chapter spends more gene-seed to fll it's ranks.

 

So their sense of smell isn't very good but they can all throw fireballs and have a larger recruitment range than any other chapter? That's a pretty good trade-off, but a little too awesome to be believable. I would cut this part and just leave the mutation flaws. Since they shouldn't be lost in the warp anyway, this may not even come up.

 

the chapter employ false astartes or Guard Exemplar to bolster their strength.

 

How many guys are we talking about here? Besides, couldn't chapter serfs just fill the numbers void?

 

Due to large number of capable personnel and good ties with the AM, they posses a large array of marine equipement.

 

Just 2 lines above you said they never have more than 600 guys. Now you're saying they have plenty of people. Which one is it? And if they do suffer from a manpower shortage, why would the AdMech give them so much equipment? Especially when they're defending a relatively quiet sector?

 

Tech-marines and apothecaries are held in great respect within the Chapter, as all marines are encouraged to share knowledge and bond in general.

 

Why? How does this help their mission? How does sharing their tech help the techmarines do their job better?

 

500-600.M40 - The entire system undergoes a similar reconstruction, with Arturian instuting changes that revitalize the entire sub-sector. An entire army of tech-priests and servitors is created to spearhead the massive construction projects going on everywhere. Arturian builds ties with the forge world of Van Secundus, the AM, Inquisition and Administratorium.

The AdMech is intrigued with the gene-mutation. Relations with the DA are strained.

 

You rebuild an entire sub-sector AND you have an army of your own tech-priests??? I'm sorry, but this just isn't realistic, or believable. Overseeing the revitalization of the sub-sector and helping to organize the manpower for it however would be ok.

 

653 - 700. M40 - Vengance Crusade. The Chapter strikes into the ork-held territory and cleanses several planets of orks. First deployment of Land Raider Reaper and the ork virus. Master of the Forge Satorian begins forging STC printouts to canonize PK-created equipment.

 

In the words of Commander Boreale "NO!" Your guys may be able to modify a land raider to make a Land Raider Reaper (which sounds really cool btw, whatever it is) but you do NOT have an STC for it. STC's are rare, irreplaceable artifacts of the Machine God that any Tech-Priest would kill his own Fabricator-General for just to peek at. The imperium barely understands how they work, let alone how to create new ones. Your guys simply would not figure this out on their own. Also, even if they did, the tech-priests would most likely see it as heresy since it doesn't have the Machine God's blessing.

 

724. M40 - an ancienct, unknown class of battleship found in space. After a clensing action it is towed back to Mars and handed over to the AM along with the forged STC data.

 

734.M40 - Vixis Campaign. Tyranid Splinter fleet attacks the Vaynar system. It is stopped on Vixis by the combined forces of The Phoenix Knights, Eldar of Ilyaden, the Imperial Guard and a few elements of other chapters that responded to the destress call. A hidden underground complex found on the moon, pre-dating the Horus Heresy. Massive library and some relics found within. Relics and STC data used to further improve relations to AM and convince them to hand over the ancient battleship, "Sword of the Stars" over to the chapter.

 

So they find a super duper battleship that no one else has seen before, which just happens to have it's own STC data aboard, which they then give to the Ad Mech only to GET IT BACK? Again, NO!

 

Overall:

 

It's not a bad piece of writing and has some potential, but there are some major holes you need to fill. Also, the basic mission of these guys is lost on me. They were sent to a new homeworld which they arrived 300 years late to and...then what happened? Every Space Marine chapter is created for a specific purpose that normal men can't fufill, so why do the Phoenix Knights exist? Please don't get discouraged if I came across as harsh, I'm only trying to help you. As a fellow IA'er, I can tell you that this stuff takes a lot of work to get right and more than one attempt. Anyway, good luck with the revisions. I hope I helped. Feel free to PM me if you have any ideas and I'll be happy to hear them.

 

Cromat

[TrashMan]

First off, I have to say this isn't a good way to start an IA. Don't know how experienced you are with the Liber but getting lost in the warp isn't a popular story element around here. I highly suggest you cut out the lost for 300 years bit.

 

I don't see why it would be a problem. The warp is canonicly a vey chaotic place, and jumping trough warp with Chaos interference is bound to cause some problems.

Additionaly, the delay has antother reason for being present - it reinfroces the need for the chapter to be cautions and gather intel before doing anything. They have to catch up on the happening of the last 300 years. This in turn helps justify the decision to stay put.

 

 

The ambush part is fine (not to mention quite sneaky. Sort of like a certain Legion of Alpha perhaps? :D). Also, if something big and holy and uber awesome that looks like Big E or The Lion shows up to save your fellows, then they must be REALLY awesome. More awesome than even the GW chapters! (hint: this is not a good thing.)

 

Oh I didn't say it was the E.. or the Lion. I said some of the marines think it was one of them. ;)

But maybe it was just your typical chaos internal scruffle?

 

 

 

So their sense of smell isn't very good but they can all throw fireballs and have a larger recruitment range than any other chapter? That's a pretty good trade-off, but a little too awesome to be believable. I would cut this part and just leave the mutation flaws. Since they shouldn't be lost in the warp anyway, this may not even come up.

 

They have a higher recruitment range, but also higher rejection rate on average. Meaning they spend more gene-seed then other chatpers to keep up thei numbers.

And pyrokinetic aptitude is rare and refers mostly to librarians.

 

It may still look too good, but then again, if you look at DA and Ultras, they are both as chapters better off than others. Massive, huge resources, no flaws.

 

 

 

the chapter employ false astartes or Guard Exemplar to bolster their strength.

 

How many guys are we talking about here? Besides, couldn't chapter serfs just fill the numbers void?

 

Perhaps they could. Guard Exemplar are aspirants that did not become chosen, and the PK employ them in combat duty, since they have plenty of support staff.

I'm not sure how enhanced a typical serft is tough.

Think of Guard Exampler as being as close to Luther as it is possible with the tech in 40K (the PK don't know about Luthers betrayl, so the GK are inspired by him - both to honor him and the aspirants)

 

 

Due to large number of capable personnel and good ties with the AM, they posses a large array of marine equipement.

 

Just 2 lines above you said they never have more than 600 guys. Now you're saying they have plenty of people. Which one is it? And if they do suffer from a manpower shortage, why would the AdMech give them so much equipment? Especially when they're defending a relatively quiet sector?

 

Ah..good catch. To clarify that - the personell above refers to tech-priests and support staff, not marines. I refer you to link at the very top as it offers more details about it (section about Characters, Arturian Draco). Long storys short, Arturian instituted a ban on death penalty and turns all criminals into tech-priests or servitors.

The marine equipment refers to guns, items and armor - not veichles. The chapter is still short on that. And the reason AdMEch gives them that is two fold

1) good relations with Van Secundus

2) Good relations with Ad MEch in general because of the recovered STC's. Arturian pledged his chapter to search for them.

 

 

 

Tech-marines and apothecaries are held in great respect within the Chapter, as all marines are encouraged to share knowledge and bond in general.

 

Why? How does this help their mission? How does sharing their tech help the techmarines do their job better?

 

Marines beign able to do minor mantainance tasks does free up the techmarines for other stuff.

And why? Becasue that's how they have been taught/conditioned.

 

 

 

500-600.M40 - The entire system undergoes a similar reconstruction, with Arturian instuting changes that revitalize the entire sub-sector. An entire army of tech-priests and servitors is created to spearhead the massive construction projects going on everywhere. Arturian builds ties with the forge world of Van Secundus, the AM, Inquisition and Administratorium.

The AdMech is intrigued with the gene-mutation. Relations with the DA are strained.

 

You rebuild an entire sub-sector AND you have an army of your own tech-priests??? I'm sorry, but this just isn't realistic, or believable. Overseeing the revitalization of the sub-sector and helping to organize the manpower for it however would be ok.

 

The army of tech-priests belongs the the sub-sector/planet and it is what helped revitalize the sector in the first place.

So organizing hte manpower comes first, then revitalizing hte sector. I should change that sentance so peopel dont' get confused.

 

 

 

 

In the words of Commander Boreale "NO!" Your guys may be able to modify a land raider to make a Land Raider Reaper (which sounds really cool btw, whatever it is) but you do NOT have an STC for it. STC's are rare, irreplaceable artifacts of the Machine God that any Tech-Priest would kill his own Fabricator-General for just to peek at. The imperium barely understands how they work, let alone how to create new ones. Your guys simply would not figure this out on their own. Also, even if they did, the tech-priests would most likely see it as heresy since it doesn't have the Machine God's blessing.

 

Not an STC - and STC printout. This is just blueprint data, those can be forged by a skileld techmarine. And surely, the Master of the Forge would have the necesarry knowledge. Orat least they should have.

And yes, you are right. It is tech-Heresy. If it's ever found out that is.

 

EDIT: The link at the top of the thread. Follow it pls.

 

 

 

So they find a super duper battleship that no one else has seen before, which just happens to have it's own STC data aboard, which they then give to the Ad Mech only to GET IT BACK? Again, NO!

 

Erm...no.

The relics (mainly items and tomes, and a STC data pritnout or two. OR a damaged STC) are found in a bunker beneath Vixis. They are handed over to Ad MEch, and Ad MEch agrees to let the Chatper use the battleship (a new class, why not?) after studying it. There are cavetats tough: Ad Mech personel remains on the ship to further study it and the ship itself is not be unnecessarily put into danger. It practicly never leaves the system.

 

Maybe getting a battleship is a bit too much, but a Battlebarge is already comparable to a battleship anyway..

 

And in case you are asking "doesn't finding a bunker with relics AND an ancient battleship sound like too much?". Yes, yes it does...which is also a plot point.

The bucketloads of luck the chapter is experiencing is causing more than one head to turn in their direction... and doesn't make their image among other factions any better (with the exception of the AdMech).

 

 

It's not a bad piece of writing and has some potential, but there are some major holes you need to fill. Also, the basic mission of these guys is lost on me. They were sent to a new homeworld which they arrived 300 years late to and...then what happened? Every Space Marine chapter is created for a specific purpose that normal men can't fufill, so why do the Phoenix Knights exist?

 

To stem the recent ork incursions into that area of imperial space.

 

 

Please don't get discouraged if I came across as harsh, I'm only trying to help you.

 

Not at all. I welcome criticism.

The PK were much worse earlier....cursed founding, ties with Flaming Falcons, unknown primarch, etc... Dunno :tu: I was thinking. ;)

Edited April 30, 2012 by TrashMan

[TrashMan]

So I take it no more comments means no gaping mistakes left?

[SnakeoilSage]

You have a lot of spelling mistakes and grammar errors to correct.

If you don't want your Chapter involved in hunting the Fallen, why make them a Dark Angels successor at all? It seems redundant.

How do "false astartes" and Guard Examplars fit into a Codex: Dark Angels-approved force?

The STC stuff is too much. Let it go.

 

I don't see much personality in your Chapter. Nothing about their culture, their traditions, how they view the galaxy and themselves. Ancestor- and hero-worship is nothing new among Space Marines. The "older brother" relationship with their homeworld is something, but you don't go into much detail about how that relationship evolved other than your Chapter Master saying it will be so.

 

Most of the entry (both here and in the Fanon wiki) just describes how awesome they are: they were saved by the Emperor or the Lion, they don't have to hunt the Fallen, they can recruit older men, they live a long time and can use pyrokenesis, they have STC tanks, ancient warships, "Ork viruses," unique equipment and the Adeptus Mechanicus loves them. That's pushing into "Mary Sue Marines" territory.

 

Finally, this is from Silver Pheonix's Deathwatch Challenge thread:

Very iiiinteresting.... that puts the action after my chapter made a secret alliance with a eldar craftworld. Which means any marine would have a somewhat different view on eldar.

 

And we're officially into Mary Sue territory.

 

A good IA Chapter works within the confines of the canon. It doesn't wander in the Forbidden Zone because you think the canon doesn't have the cajones to do it and you do. Keep this in mind when making the appropriate changes.

[TrashMan]

Most of the entry (both here and in the Fanon wiki) just describes how awesome they are: they were saved by the Emperor or the Lion, they don't have to hunt the Fallen, they can recruit older men, they live a long time and can use pyrokenesis, they have STC tanks, ancient warships, "Ork viruses," unique equipment and the Adeptus Mechanicus loves them. That's pushing into "Mary Sue Marines" territory.

 

You got it wrong.

They weren't saved by the Emperor OR the Lion. It's just that some believe that. The reality is far less pleasant.

Tehy dont' have to hunt the fallen becasue they don't know about them, and the DA do not trust them enough to tell them. In fact, were it not for the AdMEch, they might have destroyed them.

They can recruit older (but not much older... it's not a bonus at all, there's no shortage of recruits in the IoM), but they also require more gene-seed.

Their Librarians are especially gifted with pyrokinesys. Your regular marine can no more use it than any other.

They don't have STC tanks.

They found a derelict warship...so what? Hulks and warships are common in 40K, it's just that this one was a unknown design. It's luck that they stumbled upon it, but nothing more.

Why would a *failed* ork virus be too much? Didn't the Blood Ravens use a virus on the Tyranids?

Unique Equipment? Almost every chapter has something. All of the cutomized equipment is nothing new, just combination of existing stuff.

The AdMEch only loves them because they are usefull. Adn there are plenty of chapter with great relations to AdMech.

 

 

 

And we're officially into Mary Sue territory.

 

A good IA Chapter works within the confines of the canon. It doesn't wander in the Forbidden Zone because you think the canon doesn't have the cajones to do it and you do. Keep this in mind when making the appropriate changes.

 

 

Mary Sue because they have a tenious alliance with an Eldar craftworld? How is that Sue-ish?

IoM forces have on many times worked with the eldar out of necessity. Those alliences were short-lived, true, but they existed. It's just so happens that the chapter sees a necessity and is holding back.

Also, the big E was all for it, so it's not like there's no precedent in 40K.

You're acting like I'm writing "Love Can Bloom 2"

 

There seems to be some strange notion that any idea of a SM chapter not eradicating any Xeno on sight is heresy and FORBIDDEN.

[SnakeoilSage]

You got it wrong.

They weren't saved by the Emperor OR the Lion. It's just that some believe that. The reality is far less pleasant.

Tehy dont' have to hunt the fallen becasue they don't know about them, and the DA do not trust them enough to tell them. In fact, were it not for the AdMEch, they might have destroyed them.

They can recruit older (but not much older... it's not a bonus at all, there's no shortage of recruits in the IoM), but they also require more gene-seed.

Their Librarians are especially gifted with pyrokinesys. Your regular marine can no more use it than any other.

They don't have STC tanks.

They found a derelict warship...so what? Hulks and warships are common in 40K, it's just that this one was a unknown design. It's luck that they stumbled upon it, but nothing more.

Why would a *failed* ork virus be too much? Didn't the Blood Ravens use a virus on the Tyranids?

Unique Equipment? Almost every chapter has something. All of the cutomized equipment is nothing new, just combination of existing stuff.

The AdMEch only loves them because they are usefull. Adn there are plenty of chapter with great relations to AdMech.

 

If I got it wrong, then your entry doesn't make an effort to hint at the things your explaining here, so it still needs changing.

You don't suggest that the "power" in the Warp is something other than the Emperor/Lion.

If the Dark Angels don't trust the Phoenix Knights, they wouldn't sit on their laurels for the AdMech's sake. They've abandoned battlefields and lied to the Imperium to hunt the Fallen; letting a wayward Unforgiven Chapter do its own thing would be inexcusable to them. Again, feels redundant.

How do you "require more" gene-seed?

If the Reaper isn't an STC then why are you referring to them as such? An STC printout is a very specific item, produced by an STC computer. Anything else is just a blueprint or "pattern." And ANY mention of an STC should be removed on principle. It's an overused idea and waters down their importance.

A derelict warship that--according to your Fandom entry--dwarfs an Emperor class battleship, and dates back to the Dark Age of Technology. That's kind of a big deal.

You don't mention anything about the Ork virus failing. In fact your fandom entry indicates it works, though it also kills local plantlife. Considering how overkill Exterminatus virus-bombs and cyclonic torpedoes are, this is a huge leap forward, one that grants the Imperium an unprecedented advantage over one of their more numerous enemies.

Your Fandom entry describes several unique weapons in detail, including the odd Land Raider Reaper pattern, multi-lasers, "Hailstorm" cannons, etc. Few of these have anything to do with table-top legal weapons.

 

Mary Sue because they have a tenious alliance with an Eldar craftworld? How is that Sue-ish?

IoM forces have on many times worked with the eldar out of necessity. Those alliences were short-lived, true, but they existed. It's just so happens that the chapter sees a necessity and is holding back.

Also, the big E was all for it, so it's not like there's no precedent in 40K.

You're acting like I'm writing "Love Can Bloom 2"

 

There seems to be some strange notion that any idea of a SM chapter not eradicating any Xeno on sight is heresy and FORBIDDEN.

 

It could be because it IS heresy and forbidden. The circumstances that prevent one group from just attacking the other on sight are complicated, circumstantial, and temporary at best. A Space Marine, with his code of honor, may allow an Eldar who aided him to leave alive, and vice versa. But the situation is always an "I'll kill you later" moment.

 

And Boreale is back with a big "NO." The Emperor did NOT pursue an alliance with the Eldar. The Imperial Truth proclaimed Mankind as the rightful rulers of the galaxy and that the Eldar had failed, so much so that they had created Slaanesh out of their own ignorance. The Emperor believed that any xenos that showed even the slightest threat to humanity had to be brutally crushed to ensure our survival. He created the Golden Throne as a way of invading and ultimately conquering the Webway, usurping it from the Eldar. He saw them as a failed race no more worthy of friendship than pity, a mortality lesson, their mistakes ones he did not want Mankind to make.

 

And even if he somehow did want an alliance with the Eldar, it hardly matters anymore. To even suggest that he would is one of the foulest heresies one can utter in the 41st Millennium. Worlds have died for suggesting less and a Space Marine Chapter would not be exempt. Even if it is true, this is an exception in the canon: it does not set the standard for how a Chapter can act.

 

Even if you don't think this is Mary Sue wish-fulfillment fantasy, it's a checklist of overblown ideas that will harm your IA. The suspension of disbelief is too high, and readers will be turned off by it.

[TrashMan]

If I got it wrong, then your entry doesn't make an effort to hint at the things your explaining here, so it still needs changing.

You don't suggest that the "power" in the Warp is something other than the Emperor/Lion.

 

- I though the paragraph made it clear. Will have tore-write it then.

 

 

If the Dark Angels don't trust the Phoenix Knights, they wouldn't sit on their laurels for the AdMech's sake. They've abandoned battlefields and lied to the Imperium to hunt the Fallen; letting a wayward Unforgiven Chapter do its own thing would be inexcusable to them. Again, feels redundant.

 

Again with the "every DA must hunt the fallen BS". No they don't. The DA have better things to do, and they won't wage war on a sucessor chapter that's on the other side of the galaxy AND anger the AdMEch jsut for kicks.

Just because you think the DA would never, ever let that happen doesn't make it true.

 

 

How do you "require more" gene-seed?

 

Because the seed rejection rate is higher.

So to get a fully functional marine you require more...as 1 or 2 will have to be re-implanted

 

If the Reaper isn't an STC then why are you referring to them as such? An STC printout is a very specific item, produced by an STC computer. Anything else is just a blueprint or "pattern." And ANY mention of an STC should be removed on principle. It's an overused idea and waters down their importance.

 

As far as I understand a STC printout IS a blueprint. STC's store data and can manufacture anything with a proper blueprint and materials.

The reaper is a pattern, but since all patterns seem to have been "canonized" (I recall the crusader first beign a invention, then it because a lost STC), I went with it too.

And since every blueprint can be faked..... you get the picture.

 

A derelict warship that--according to your Fandom entry--dwarfs an Emperor class battleship, and dates back to the Dark Age of Technology. That's kind of a big deal.

 

All Naval designs date back to the Dark Age unless I'm mistaken. And the ship is roughly as powerfull as any other battleship...which in turn is similar to a battle-barge in power and size.

I could just make it a Emeperor class, but I do like fiddling with new designs.

 

You don't mention anything about the Ork virus failing. In fact your fandom entry indicates it works, though it also kills local plantlife. Considering how overkill Exterminatus virus-bombs and cyclonic torpedoes are, this is a huge leap forward, one that grants the Imperium an unprecedented advantage over one of their more numerous enemies.

 

If it kills anything, and the virus-bombs do the same, then it isn't really a huge leap forward. It's just wasted research time to create something more complicated and expensive, and yet in the end has the same effect as a virus bomb.

Granted, I did want to put in a small spark of hope against the orcs in the long run, but I know some see any hope as heresy, as 40K must be doom and gloom forever.

 

 

Your Fandom entry describes several unique weapons in detail, including the odd Land Raider Reaper pattern, multi-lasers, "Hailstorm" cannons, etc. Few of these have anything to do with table-top legal weapons.

 

And?

 

 

 

There seems to be some strange notion that any idea of a SM chapter not eradicating any Xeno on sight is heresy and FORBIDDEN.

 

It could be because it IS heresy and forbidden.

 

I mena forbidden to even write or suggest it.

That the Imperious might look at it unkindly is hte least of my concerns. What the Imperioum doesn't know, won't hurt it.

 

 

The circumstances that prevent one group from just attacking the other on sight are complicated, circumstantial, and temporary at best. A Space Marine, with his code of honor, may allow an Eldar who aided him to leave alive, and vice versa. But the situation is always an "I'll kill you later" moment.

 

And Boreale is back with a big "NO." The Emperor did NOT pursue an alliance with the Eldar. The Imperial Truth proclaimed Mankind as the rightful rulers of the galaxy and that the Eldar had failed, so much so that they had created Slaanesh out of their own ignorance. The Emperor believed that any xenos that showed even the slightest threat to humanity had to be brutally crushed to ensure our survival. He created the Golden Throne as a way of invading and ultimately conquering the Webway, usurping it from the Eldar. He saw them as a failed race no more worthy of friendship than pity, a mortality lesson, their mistakes ones he did not want Mankind to make.

 

I recall that there were peace talks with the Eldar and the Eldrad wanted to warn the emperor about the heresy, but chaos traitors stopped that.

I dont' recall reading anything that suggest the Emperor was opposed to the alliance and wanted to eradicate all eldar.

 

 

And even if he somehow did want an alliance with the Eldar, it hardly matters anymore. To even suggest that he would is one of the foulest heresies one can utter in the 41st Millennium. Worlds have died for suggesting less and a Space Marine Chapter would not be exempt. Even if it is true, this is an exception in the canon: it does not set the standard for how a Chapter can act.

 

Even if you don't think this is Mary Sue wish-fulfillment fantasy, it's a checklist of overblown ideas that will harm your IA. The suspension of disbelief is too high, and readers will be turned off by it.

 

Yeah, that's the reason why the alliance (more like a long-term cease-fire actually) is kept secret in the first place.

As to standards...standards are made to be broken. Space Marines (and pretty much everyone in the imperium) have done a lot of strange things over the years, and broken many rules.

 

This one aspect of the IA is non-negotiable.

[TrashMan]

t Edited May 4, 2012 by TrashMan

[AGPO]

I think I may have found your chapter master:

 

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-9mTJEeGROhw/TbiR7HwnLHI/AAAAAAAAApg/4PC7N629YMo/s1600/peter-kay-phoenix-nights.jpg

[TrashMan]

Blast all the typos..was at work when I was typing that, so I was in a hurry. And the damn new keyboard keys...

 

B.t.w. - who is that guy?

[SnakeoilSage]

Again with the "every DA must hunt the fallen BS". No they don't. The DA have better things to do, and they won't wage war on a sucessor chapter that's on the other side of the galaxy AND anger the AdMEch jsut for kicks.

Just because you think the DA would never, ever let that happen doesn't make it true.

 

I want you to go out and find a copy of the Dark Angels codex. You clearly don't recognize how obsessed the Chapter is with the Fallen.

 

As far as I understand a STC printout IS a blueprint. STC's store data and can manufacture anything with a proper blueprint and materials.

The reaper is a pattern, but since all patterns seem to have been "canonized" (I recall the crusader first beign a invention, then it because a lost STC), I went with it too.

And since every blueprint can be faked..... you get the picture.

 

They're not just blueprints. STC printouts are something unique. I don't know what makes them unique, but even a fragment of one is apparently of supreme importance to the Machine Cult, so I assume they have ways of verifying if one is authentic. Land Raiders, Land Speeders, Rhinos, Thunderhawks; a lot of these are STC's, but their variants like the Crusader and Redeemer are modifications made later by enterprising Space Marines. These "patterns" are frowned on by the AdMech who don't want to see changes to their "holy scriptures," but with enough time, christening and ritual they can be convinced to make it part of their accepted collection of designs.

 

All Naval designs date back to the Dark Age unless I'm mistaken. And the ship is roughly as powerfull as any other battleship...which in turn is similar to a battle-barge in power and size.

I could just make it a Emeperor class, but I do like fiddling with new designs.

 

Many do date back to the Dark Age. The Emperor class itself is a Dark Age relic, which is why it's one of the standards of the Imperial Navy. Finding ships of this age and power is a momentous occasion. Studying it would take decades and the AdMech would want to add it to the existing military. Frankly it would feel more believable if your Chapter found a lost ship from within the past 10,000 years, an existing class of ship but one that that has a history behind it.

 

If it kills anything, and the virus-bombs do the same, then it isn't really a huge leap forward. It's just wasted research time to create something more complicated and expensive, and yet in the end has the same effect as a virus bomb.

Granted, I did want to put in a small spark of hope against the orcs in the long run, but I know some see any hope as heresy, as 40K must be doom and gloom forever.

 

Virus-bombs kill every living thing on the planet. Cyclonic torpedoes--the current Exterminatus standard--rip the planet apart. To have a virus that only kills Orks and plantlife? Shoot, the Imperium would be dropping those things everywhere. Plants are easy to regrow; a virus that would allow all the humans and infrastructure to survive? That's god-like. And that's why it's unbelievable.

 

And?

 

You wanted examples of unique equipment.

 

I mena forbidden to even write or suggest it.

That the Imperious might look at it unkindly is hte least of my concerns. What the Imperioum doesn't know, won't hurt it.

 

Considering the nature of the Warhammer 40,000 universe, what you don't know can hurt you, almost as much as knowing it.

 

I recall that there were peace talks with the Eldar and the Eldrad wanted to warn the emperor about the heresy, but chaos traitors stopped that.

I dont' recall reading anything that suggest the Emperor was opposed to the alliance and wanted to eradicate all eldar.

 

Eldrad warned Fulgrim of Horus' treachery, only realizing later he had erred in doing so. His foremost concern is preventing the loss of Eldar life, and Eldrad was always more than happy to sacrifice trillions of humans to save his own kind. That's how Eldar think. They don't empathize with humans. Humans find ways to empathize with things, we start to think maybe we can be friends with a race like the Eldar, but they don't see us as equals or even worthy of their attention except when we're poking out fingers into places they don't want us to. They're more than happy to watch us wipe ourselves out fighting their enemies for them, and only intervene on our behalf when doing so benefits them.

 

The Emperor opposed any xenos race. He loved humanity and all its people to be sure, and he didn't desire to slay xenos outright, but the galaxy is an unquestionably hostile place. First and last, the Emperor desired humanity to thrive. That meant destroying and xenos that posed even the potential for a threat. The Eldar do.

 

Yeah, that's the reason why the alliance (more like a long-term cease-fire actually) is kept secret in the first place.

As to standards...standards are made to be broken. Space Marines (and pretty much everyone in the imperium) have done a lot of strange things over the years, and broken many rules.

 

This one aspect of the IA is non-negotiable.

 

Fair enough, it's your IA. I'm just pointing out dog turds on your lawn. It's up to you whether you wanna pick them up or not.

[TrashMan]

I want you to go out and find a copy of the Dark Angels codex. You clearly don't recognize how obsessed the Chapter is with the Fallen.

 

I know how obsessed they are. But that doesn't mean every sucessor will be i nthe know, REGARDLESS OF CIRCUMSTNACES. Heck, most of the DA's don't know about what really happened, but keep the knoledge restricted to the inner circle. They are the most secretive of all chapters.

 

This insistance that every DA must do X is what stiffles creativity a lot.

 

 

 

They're not just blueprints. STC printouts are something unique. I don't know what makes them unique, but even a fragment of one is apparently of supreme importance to the Machine Cult, so I assume they have ways of verifying if one is authentic. Land Raiders, Land Speeders, Rhinos, Thunderhawks; a lot of these are STC's, but their variants like the Crusader and Redeemer are modifications made later by enterprising Space Marines. These "patterns" are frowned on by the AdMech who don't want to see changes to their "holy scriptures," but with enough time, christening and ritual they can be convinced to make it part of their accepted collection of designs.

 

Everything can be counterfitted.

And if you can't explin to me what a STC printout is, how can you claim it can't be counterfitted?

 

 

 

Many do date back to the Dark Age. The Emperor class itself is a Dark Age relic, which is why it's one of the standards of the Imperial Navy. Finding ships of this age and power is a momentous occasion. Studying it would take decades and the AdMech would want to add it to the existing military. Frankly it would feel more believable if your Chapter found a lost ship from within the past 10,000 years, an existing class of ship but one that that has a history behind it.

 

The Ad Mech did study it for decades.... Unless I typed some year wrong, there should be a 30 year gap at least. I can easily make it a 100, but I doubt they would study it that long.

EDIt: Well..I did type it wrong. Teh gap is only 10 years.

 

 

Virus-bombs kill every living thing on the planet. Cyclonic torpedoes--the current Exterminatus standard--rip the planet apart. To have a virus that only kills Orks and plantlife? Shoot, the Imperium would be dropping those things everywhere. Plants are easy to regrow; a virus that would allow all the humans and infrastructure to survive? That's god-like. And that's why it's unbelievable.

 

Fair enough..

Will change it so it only killed SOME orcs, not nearly all, so it ended up as a faliure.

 

 

You wanted examples of unique equipment.

 

And I ask again - and? What's the problem with new euqipment. It is nothing new in essence. Multi-lasers? They area common weapon in the imperium. What is the big issue with bolting it to a land raider insted of a heavy bolter?

Hailstorm? That's just two assult cannons. It's all unconventional use of common tech.

 

 

Considering the nature of the Warhammer 40,000 universe, what you don't know can hurt you, almost as much as knowing it.

 

Which is beside the point.

 

 

Eldrad warned Fulgrim of Horus' treachery, only realizing later he had erred in doing so. His foremost concern is preventing the loss of Eldar life, and Eldrad was always more than happy to sacrifice trillions of humans to save his own kind. That's how Eldar think. They don't empathize with humans. Humans find ways to empathize with things, we start to think maybe we can be friends with a race like the Eldar, but they don't see us as equals or even worthy of their attention except when we're poking out fingers into places they don't want us to. They're more than happy to watch us wipe ourselves out fighting their enemies for them, and only intervene on our behalf when doing so benefits them.

 

Don't over-generalize. Most humans would sacrifice trillion of Eldar. We are seeing hte worst of both species and the eldar aren't acting any more insidious than the IoM.

 

 

The Emperor opposed any xenos race. He loved humanity and all its people to be sure, and he didn't desire to slay xenos outright, but the galaxy is an unquestionably hostile place. First and last, the Emperor desired humanity to thrive. That meant destroying and xenos that posed even the potential for a threat. The Eldar do.

 

Only if they desire to fight us.

It's a silly nothion that for humantiy to thrive, everyone else must die.

 

 

Fair enough, it's your IA. I'm just pointing out dog turds on your lawn. It's up to you whether you wanna pick them up or not.

 

I see no turd. I see a shining diamond, sparkling in the sunlight. ;)

[SnakeoilSage]

I know how obsessed they are. But that doesn't mean every sucessor will be i nthe know, REGARDLESS OF CIRCUMSTNACES. Heck, most of the DA's don't know about what really happened, but keep the knoledge restricted to the inner circle. They are the most secretive of all chapters.

 

This insistance that every DA must do X is what stiffles creativity a lot.

 

That's why there are plenty of more appropriate Chapters to pick from.

 

Everything can be counterfitted.

And if you can't explin to me what a STC printout is, how can you claim it can't be counterfitted?

 

Because if someone could counterfeit an STC, everyone would.

 

If the STC is just a forgery, how do the Phoenix Knights know what one looks like to copy it?

 

Don't over-generalize. Most humans would sacrifice trillion of Eldar. We are seeing hte worst of both species and the eldar aren't acting any more insidious than the IoM.

 

Which is my point. Eldar and humans hate each other. Macha isn't saving herself for the Emprah.

 

Only if they desire to fight us.

It's a silly nothion that for humantiy to thrive, everyone else must die.

 

Wow. This is really happening. Okay, last lesson:

"Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods."

 

What does this statement mean to you?

A) Burn the heretic, kill the mutant, purge the unclean! For the Emperor!

B) WAAAAGH!

C) It's a silly notion that for humanity to thrive, everyone else must die.

D) HWE CAPTOORED IT FOR KAY-OS!

 

If you answered C, you have missed the point so hard you're in a different forum. Discussing a different setting. In Chinese.

[AGPO]

He's the main character in a British Comedy called Pheonix Nights.

[TrashMan]

That's why there are plenty of more appropriate Chapters to pick from.

 

And DA is appropriate for my needs.

Ever wondered why there aren't many DA successor DIY chapters? This is why. Because poeple like you insist they have to be DA clones.

 

Space Marines chapters have gone in all kinds of ways depending of circumstances.

 

 

 

If the STC is just a forgery, how do the Phoenix Knights know what one looks like to copy it?

 

How do Space Marine chapters produce their own veichles and weapons? They must have blueprints and knowledge. The techmarines must have seen printouts during their training on Mars, or more probably have copies.

You don't build a tank without blueprints. Especially if the AdMech will accuse you of tech heresy if a bolt is placed wrongy.

 

 

 

Which is my point. Eldar and humans hate each other.

 

And they can work together when necessary. Survival > Hate.

Also humans hate humans too.

 

 

If you answered C, you have missed the point so hard you're in a different forum. Discussing a different setting. In Chinese.

 

Oh noes! It's not grimdark enough for you! The horror!

 

WH40K is a dark place to be, but tiny sparks of hope still exist and surface occasionaly.

So yeah..same setting, different views on what's really important in it.

[Demus Ragnok]

If the STC is just a forgery, how do the Phoenix Knights know what one looks like to copy it?

 

How do Space Marine chapters produce their own veichles and weapons? They must have blueprints and knowledge. The techmarines must have seen printouts during their training on Mars, or more probably have copies.

You don't build a tank without blueprints. Especially if the AdMech will accuse you of tech heresy if a bolt is placed wrongy.

 

Blueprints and knowledge are not grounds for creative license. STC are religious relics to the admech. Key word being religious. They are like a holy writ from the hand of the Omnissia himself. Religious types start wars over forgeries and such.

 

And the admech doesn't build things the way we understand manufacturing. If the proper incantations aren't read things don't operate at proper machine spirituality. Its more rituals and rights than nuts and bolts.

[TrashMan]

Blueprints and knowledge are not grounds for creative license. STC are religious relics to the admech. Key word being religious. They are like a holy writ from the hand of the Omnissia himself. Religious types start wars over forgeries and such.

 

Only if they found out it's a forgery... But in reality, how do you forge a blueprint? How can you tell it's not "official"? It's a blueprint.

 

And the admech doesn't build things the way we understand manufacturing. If the proper incantations aren't read things don't operate at proper machine spirituality. Its more rituals and rights than nuts and bolts.

 

It's both actually. It is said Masters of the Forge have knowledge equal to those of the highest Magos. Tehy know how hte AdMech works. If anyone can make a forgery, they can.

 

If you can prove to me that a STC printout/blueprint cannot be forged, then we may have something to discuss. But I've yet to see anything in the fluff that points that way.

[Demus Ragnok]

Blueprints and knowledge are not grounds for creative license. STC are religious relics to the admech. Key word being religious. They are like a holy writ from the hand of the Omnissia himself. Religious types start wars over forgeries and such.

 

Only if they found out it's a forgery... But in reality, how do you forge a blueprint? How can you tell it's not "official"? It's a blueprint.

 

And the admech doesn't build things the way we understand manufacturing. If the proper incantations aren't read things don't operate at proper machine spirituality. Its more rituals and rights than nuts and bolts.

 

It's both actually. It is said Masters of the Forge have knowledge equal to those of the highest Magos. Tehy know how hte AdMech works. If anyone can make a forgery, they can.

 

If you can prove to me that a STC printout/blueprint cannot be forged, then we may have something to discuss. But I've yet to see anything in the fluff that points that way.

 

I have nothing to prove you're the one that needs to build a watertight reality for your fiction not me.

[War Angel]

All other things aside, I feel you shouldnt abbreviate youre chapter name in the AI.

 

That being said, space marines don't build there own tanks, forge worlds build them. Lots of things don't have blue prints at all, they have buildings that just construct them. No one knows how they work any more and no one dares take it appart to figure out how to rebuild it for fear that it will not work again.

[TrashMan]

I have nothing to prove you're the one that needs to build a watertight reality for your fiction not me.

 

Actually you do. You're the one that makes the claim that X is impossible.

 

 

That being said, space marines don't build there own tanks, forge worlds build them. Lots of things don't have blue prints at all, they have buildings that just construct them. No one knows how they work any more and no one dares take it appart to figure out how to rebuild it for fear that it will not work again.

 

IIRC; Space Mariens don't build land raiders, but they can build Rhinos. Someone correct me if I'm worng on this.

Also, I'm pretty sure the Mechanicum knows how to build 90% of all the items that are in use - especially those that get destroyed and replaced - like tanks.

 

The two exceptions I'm aware off are the lightsaber-like power swords and the Golden Throne. Some truly old and unique relics also qualify.

[War Angel]

I think they can make some extensive repairs to rhinos, but I don't think they can build one from scratch generators and engines are alot of small moving parts inside bigger moving parts.

 

Supposedly plasma guns can no longer be built. We're just using what's left over from a huge armory. The book I read last night mentioned some naval weapons that are now rare due to the lost tech. Aside from plasma guns though, it's all fluff related I think. Every thing else in the marine codex is being reproduced

[Demus Ragnok]

I have nothing to prove you're the one that needs to build a watertight reality for your fiction not me.

 

Actually you do. You're the one that makes the claim that X is impossible.

 

That being said, space marines don't build there own tanks, forge worlds build them. Lots of things don't have blue prints at all, they have buildings that just construct them. No one knows how they work any more and no one dares take it appart to figure out how to rebuild it for fear that it will not work again.

 

IIRC; Space Mariens don't build land raiders, but they can build Rhinos. Someone correct me if I'm worng on this.

Also, I'm pretty sure the Mechanicum knows how to build 90% of all the items that are in use - especially those that get destroyed and replaced - like tanks.

 

The two exceptions I'm aware off are the lightsaber-like power swords and the Golden Throne. Some truly old and unique relics also qualify.

 

Nope never made any such statement.

[TrashMan]

I must have mistook you for someone else.

 

Either way, nothing in the fluff I read suggests making your own blueprints is impossible. Nor does nothing suggest it is impossible to fool the AdMech.

[TrashMan]

Did some minor modification, mostly to the wording to avoid confusion regarding some of the raised points.

 

 

The link at the top of the first post is most up-to-date version.

Also, Arturians background explains more in-depth some things.

 

 

Eitehr way I'm thining weather I should remove the "something happenenedin the warp" thing. On one had it part of the backstory that explains and defeines the chapter - why they believe and act the way they do. On the other.....

 

Niether the battelship nor the STC printout forging are immutable yet. I may yet make changes to those parts or remove them altogether, altough I do quite like them.

Edited May 17, 2012 by TrashMan