Line of sight and fire points v. special rules

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

Back in 5th edition, they added a blurb in the rulebook FAQ that stated that unless otherwise indicated in the entry of the vehicles in question (i.e IG Chimeras), you could not use fire points to draw LoS for special rules. With the current edition I can't seem to find anything regarding this in the rulebook, except to note that fire points are used for shooting attacks, which by the very wording would seem to excluse stuff like Torquemada's special rules (or indeed any item or rule that requires LoS but isn't shooting, or psychic powers that aren't shooting attacks). What do the rest of OR think? Do the rules as written exclude such use, or are they too allowed? As you may have guessed, a game vs Grey Knights (I was a spectator called in to act as a referee, for the record) led to this line of questioning.

 

The specific wording of the rules regarding fire points (emphasis as in the rulebook):

 

A Transport might have a number of Fire Points defined in its entry. A Fire Point is a hatch or gun slit from which one or more passengers inside the vehicle can fire shooting weapons (or use witchfire/psychic shooting attacks).

 

Unless specified differently in the vehicle's entry, a single passenger can fire out of each Fire Point and the other transported models cannot fire. Ranges and line of sight are measured from the Fire Point itself.

 

It then goes on to clarify use of template weapons, passengers firing at a different target to their vehicle, and how vehicle movement interacts with passenger firing.

 

My reasoning against runs more or less like so:

 

-a fire point allows a certain number of passengers to shoot (or use psychic shooting attacks, such as witchfire powers)

-Torquemada's rule allows for a shooting attack to be made, but isn't a shooting attack in and of itself

-other special rules that require LoS cannot be used either, since they aren't shooting attacks themselves (unless otherwise stated in the special rule)

-the exception of course being vehicles that have special rules that allow for such (i.e IG chimeras)

 

So, in an IG chimera, Torq and his guys could blaze away, but not from a Rhino.

 

The GK player in question wasn't impressed by my reasoning, and ended up nailing a pair of BA Assault Marines with his gun servitors (from inside an Inquisitorial Chimera).

[Seahawk]

I guess I don't understand what you're getting at?

 

Are you saying he shouldn't have shot you because a shooting attack isn't a shooting attack?

[Morollan]

I guess I don't understand what you're getting at?

 

Are you saying he shouldn't have shot you because a shooting attack isn't a shooting attack?

 

I've Been Expecting You requires LOS from Coteaz to the target and allows his unit to make a shooting attack on the target. You can draw LOS from vehicles for shooting attacks and witchfires but not for IBEY.

 

I think.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

I guess I don't understand what you're getting at?

 

Are you saying he shouldn't have shot you because a shooting attack isn't a shooting attack?

Not me, I was just a spectator doubling as an objective referee.

 

I guess I don't understand what you're getting at?

 

Are you saying he shouldn't have shot you because a shooting attack isn't a shooting attack?

 

I've Been Expecting You requires LOS from Coteaz to the target and allows his unit to make a shooting attack on the target. You can draw LOS from vehicles for shooting attacks and witchfires but not for IBEY.

 

I think.

Indeed.

 

As the quoted rulestext indicates, you can use the fire points for shooting and witchfire, but it doesn't mention that LoS for other purposes, which I do believe means "No, you can't do it" seeing as we're dealing with a permissive (is that the word?) ruleset.

[dswanick]

As the quoted rulestext indicates, you can use the fire points for shooting and witchfire, but it doesn't mention that LoS for other purposes, which I do believe means "No, you can't do it" seeing as we're dealing with a permissive (is that the word?) ruleset.

Seconded. The 5th Ed FAQ referrenced above was necesary because of the unclear wording used in the rules for fire points in 5th Ed. The 6th Ed rules are somewhat more precise in that they spell out exactly what actions can be performed in conjunction with a fire point. Non-Shooting Attack/Witchfire actions are not permitted.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

As the quoted rulestext indicates, you can use the fire points for shooting and witchfire, but it doesn't mention that LoS for other purposes, which I do believe means "No, you can't do it" seeing as we're dealing with a permissive (is that the word?) ruleset.

Seconded. The 5th Ed FAQ referrenced above was necesary because of the unclear wording used in the rules for fire points in 5th Ed. The 6th Ed rules are somewhat more precise in that they spell out exactly what actions can be performed in conjunction with a fire point. Non-Shooting Attack/Witchfire actions are not permitted.

Now if only I could convince the GK player of that. ;) Then again, this is the same guy who needed an FAQ to tell him what the rulebook said about "turn" being player turn, not game turn.

[Ming]

IIRR it says under blessings and maledictions that a psycher can target the unit within his own vehicle. I would check those pages in particular.

[Gentlemanloser]

Non-Shooting Attack/Witchfire actions are not permitted.

 

IBEY is a shooting attack. ;)

 

To clarify, it's a special rule that allows Coteaz and his unit to;

 

Immediately make an out of sequence shooting attack

 

Shooting attacks require LoS, which is why IBEY requires LoS. If Coteaz doesn't have LoS to the target, he couldn't shoot them. (It's not Astral aim! ;))

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

Non-Shooting Attack/Witchfire actions are not permitted.

 

IBEY is a shooting attack. :)

 

To clarify, it's a special rule that allows Coteaz and his unit to;

 

Immediately make an out of sequence shooting attack

 

Shooting attacks require LoS, which is why IBEY requires LoS. If Coteaz doesn't have LoS to the target, he couldn't shoot them. (It's not Astral aim! :))

Yes, IBEY allows for a shooting attack, which the fire points can be used for. The question is whether or not Torq can use his special rule by drawing LoS from a fire point, since his special rule isn't a shooting attack (it merely allows for one out of sequence).

[Seahawk]

"If an enemy unit arrives from reserve within 12" of Coteaz and within his line of sight, Coteaz and his unit can immediately make an out-of-sequence shooting attack against it."

 

The rule last edition is that you could do this from a transport. Now that the rules have changed, you cannot because units within a transport do not have LoS to anything unless they are shooting. In this case, you cannot shoot until you have LoS, but you don't have LoS unless you shoot.

 

So, IBEY is a no-go.

[dswanick]

Non-Shooting Attack/Witchfire actions are not permitted.

 

IBEY is a shooting attack. :)

 

To clarify, it's a special rule that allows Coteaz and his unit to;

 

Immediately make an out of sequence shooting attack

 

Shooting attacks require LoS, which is why IBEY requires LoS. If Coteaz doesn't have LoS to the target, he couldn't shoot them. (It's not Astral aim! :))

Really, and what's the S of IBEY? What's IBEY's AP? Is IBEY classed as Heavy or Assault?

IBEY is not a shooting attack. It is a special rule which allows units to make an out-of-turn shooting attack, but only if Coteaz has Line Of Sight to the target, which he can't have from inside a transport since IBEY can't use Fire Points (because IBEY is not, itself, a shooting attack)...

[Gentlemanloser]

What's an ORS? It has no profile.

 

The munitions it uses do, but they are not the ORS.

 

The ORS is a shooting attack though, isn't it?

 

Edit: Are we also going to rule that you can't use Relentless from a firing point, as it's not a shooting attack, and has no profile?

[Morollan]

What's an ORS? It has no profile.

 

The munitions it uses do, but they are not the ORS.

 

The ORS is a shooting attack though, isn't it?

 

Edit: Are we also going to rule that you can't use Relentless from a firing point, as it's not a shooting attack, and has no profile?

 

Relentless does not require LOS, IBEY, very specifically, does.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

"If an enemy unit arrives from reserve within 12" of Coteaz and within his line of sight, Coteaz and his unit can immediately make an out-of-sequence shooting attack against it."

 

The rule last edition is that you could do this from a transport. Now that the rules have changed, you cannot because units within a transport do not have LoS to anything unless they are shooting. In this case, you cannot shoot until you have LoS, but you don't have LoS unless you shoot.

 

So, IBEY is a no-go.

Naturally. But is there an actual page that can be pointed to in an effort to "prove" this beyond the words in the rule regarding fire points? I looked, but couldn't find anything else related to what models in transports can and cannot do.

[Gentlemanloser]

Relentless does not require LOS, IBEY, very specifically, does.

 

Bad choice with Relentless as an example.

 

How about Deadeye, or Precision Shots?

 

They both require LoS, as you need LoS to hit your target and they require you *to* hit to have any effect.

 

But they don't have profiles, nor are they shooting attacks. They aguement a shooting attack.

 

Can you use these from a Fire Point?

 

Edit: And we can't use the OSR from a fire point can we. As it has no profile, so can't be a shooting attack.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

Relentless does not require LOS, IBEY, very specifically, does.

 

Bad choice with Relentless as an example.

 

How about Deadeye, or Precision Shots?

 

They both require LoS, as you need LoS to hit your target and they require you *to* hit to have any effect.

 

But they don't have profiles, nor are they shooting attacks. They aguement a shooting attack.

 

Can you use these from a Fire Point?

They are "add-ons" to the rules for shooting attacks. Problem solved.

[Gentlemanloser]

IBEY is an 'add on' too.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

IBEY is an 'add on' too.

No, it doesn't modify a shooting attack, it enables one out of sequence. There is a very important difference there.

[Gentlemanloser]

That's no difference.

 

It modifies the ability to shoot, by allowing you to shoot out of turn.

 

Precision Shots modifiy the ability to shoot, by allowing you to specify the target.

 

Edit:

 

Overwatch.

 

You can't Overwatch form a Fire Point, as it's not a shooting attack and has no profile...

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

That's no difference.

 

It modifies the ability to shoot, by allowing you to shoot out of turn.

 

Precision Shots modifiy the ability to shoot, by allowing you to specify the target.

You're tripping over your own words. Yes, it does modify the ability to shoot, but not the actual shooting attack.

 

Edit:

 

Overwatch.

 

You can't Overwatch form a Fire Point, as it's not a shooting attack and has no profile...

Care to quote the actual rulebook on Overwatch and transports?

[Gentlemanloser]

Not got the rulebook to hand, it's back at a mates now. :)

 

Is Overwatch specifically noted in the fire points rules? Would you be so kind as to post what is said? It might shine a light on other abilities of it's kind.

 

You're tripping over your own words. Yes, it does modify the ability to shoot, but not the actual shooting attack.

 

That's the same thing.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

Not got the rulebook to hand, it's back at a mates now. :(

 

Is Overwatch specifically noted in the fire points rules? Would you be so kind as to post what is said? It might shine a light on other abilities of it's kind.

I'm at a mate's house, haven't got the book here, sadly.

 

You're tripping over your own words. Yes, it does modify the ability to shoot, but not the actual shooting attack.

 

That's the same thing.

No, it isn't. A modifier to BS (such as Snap Shot making all shots being fired BS 1) is a modifer to the shooting attack, as is Astral Aim (allowing them to conduct a normal shooting attack without needing LoS). Merely being able to (or not) does not modify the actual process of shooting, it merely allows or disallows the shooting.

[Gentlemanloser]

No, it isn't. A modifier to BS (such as Snap Shot making all shots being fired BS 1) is a modifer to the shooting attack. Merely being able to (or not) does not modify the actual process of shooting, it merely allows or disallows the shooting.

 

That's purely semantics of the same thing.

 

Night Fields modify the range of an attack. This modification leads to attacks that could attack, to not being able too attack.

 

Astral Aim does the same thing by removing the LoS restriciton. It modifier the shooting attack to allow it to shoot things it shouldn't be able to shoot.

 

IBEY does the same. It modifers the shooting atack to allow it to shoot in a phase its not allowed to shoot in.

[dswanick]

What's an ORS?

I have no idea...what is an ORS?

Are we also going to rule that you can't use Relentless from a firing point, as it's not a shooting attack, and has no profile?

As pointed out - Relentless doesn't require Line of Sight to use.

Same for Precision Shot. It doesn't require Line of Sight seperate from the Shooting Attack - it simply modifies a valid shot which has already been made.

Similarly for Overwatch. Overwatch doesn't require Line of Sight to operate seperate from the Shots fired. It is entirely possible to declare that you are Overwatch shooting a charging unit, then check LOS only to find you don't have any visible enemy models.

You can't even declare the use of IBEY until you've checked LOS.

Neither Night Fields not Astral Aim require that you check LOS to use their abilities.

All of your examples are of special rules which do not have a seperate LOS requirement - IBEY does. If you can find any example of a Special Rule which calls for its own LOS check and can be reasonably shown to be useable throguh a Fire Point then do so. Otherwise your argument is invalid.

 

Don't know about Deadeye offhand, because I have no idea what that one is.

[Gentlemanloser]

Deadeye is the Vindicares version of Precision Shot.

 

OSR is an Orbital Strike Relay. Wargear that has no profile, but is a shooting attack.

 

One additional question. Are we talking about the FAQ restriciton on LoS from Firepoints? If so, isn't that really invalid, as it applies to the old 5th edition rulebook? Is there a specific rule in the BRB that states special rules that require LoS can't be used from fire points?