Harleqvin Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 as the topic description says. Did the Librarians of the Pre/Heresy use the demon skull as a badge of office like how they all pretty much do now? I did a couple of searches but didn't see anything. So my apologies if this is stated elewhere and I didn't see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adra'Melek Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 I wouldn't have thought so as it seems most of the loyal legions are bringing Librarians back to fight daemons. So maybe if you're doing the return of the librarians it would be ok. But if it is pre-Heresy early librarians, they wouldn't as they didn't know daemons exist and were part of the old superstition they were trying to eradicate. It does seem to be an issue that not much detail is given on. The usual markings are general associated with the chapters. The artwork in Betrayal seems to suggest there wasn't a 'standard' that everyone followed. I've got a heavy support squad on the way and I've no idea whether there's something that should be on their shoulder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarkassBC Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 The idea to have the demon skull icon in their armour is very hard to believe. Even in the Thousand Sons heraldry there is no reference about it. A more possible icon could be a flame or a book (for knowledge). But until now there was no clear description of a Pre heresy Librarian. The only reference in my mind is the White Scars librarian speaking at Nikaea. The only reference to his role was the carring of a staff ("...His staff marked him out as a one of the Khan’s Librarians...") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaiserTJ1860 Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 I spose the staff and the psychic hood would have marked them out, that and the colour of their armour. I would have thought the book iconography would be slightly too close to that of the Word Bearers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodunius Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 I spose the staff and the psychic hood would have marked them out, that and the colour of their armour. I would have thought the book iconography would be slightly too close to that of the Word Bearers Book iconography would be no more a problem than their armour colour being too close to that of the Ultramarines, assuming they did have a branch colour, I'm not sure if BL or FW have made any mention of it? For what its worth (not that it was pre/heresy) early RT librarian markings tended towards a burning torch, some of the models then had horned skulls on but the official markings were listed as being a book+chapter badge, blue as a branch colour wasn't introduced until the very end of RT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sentinalsam87 Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 In the book Primarchs the Lion El'Jonson story describes the first time librarians are used in the Dark Angels after the Nikaea Edict. I personally believe the librarians wouldn't have any sort of special marking or identification unless you were possibly hinting at late heresy era. As I see it after the Nikaea Edict the librarian corps were basically disbanded and the librarians were returned to regular duty with Chaplains watching over them ready to carry out The Emperor's Justice should a space marine psyker use his warp abilities. And as I recall the heresy only last 7 years. This seems quite a short time to implement a whole dress and iconography for the librarians especially when they had more important matters to deal with like you know... Horus. Now some legions may have already had an iconography and ranking system that they just re-opened once they realized the Nikaea Edict was obsolete. Of course the Thousand Sons are a whole other matter. They did what they wanted pretty much. IMO the whole painting scheme of current codex chapters (IE Techmarines = Red, Apothecaries = White, Librarians = Blue) came about with the introduction of Gullieman's codex itself. But then again I've seen a report that stated the Codex Astartes teaches camouflaged armor patterns as opposed to the iconic paint schemes the chapters actually use. But as with the IA books it seems Forgeworld has made the same mistake again. They continue to pursue a style that imitates a historical military record (This is one of the mission statements in IA3), but they leave us without the proper information to replicate those forces on the table. As a veteran and fan of military history I love the smallest details, from campaign badges, service medals to the proper boots. I would love to represent an "identical" force of 30k to that is stated in the books. So in conclusion I think early heresy a librarian would look pretty much like any other marine. I doubt they would even have force weapons due to the Nikaea Edict (but w/e). Mid to Late heresy is were I believe librarians were more than just tolerated but became champions within their legions. These librarians would probably have a bit more in the way of iconography/trophies/accouterments. Yet I still don't believe they would have the blue armor until after the Codex Astartes was implemented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harleqvin Posted October 29, 2012 Author Share Posted October 29, 2012 Yeah. I also thought that in "The Lion" The libby had black armor and blue tabard/surplice. I thought. I was going to go with that flow of colors. I was just not sure of a badge of office before the heresy and then near the end of the heresy when I am sure the Librarians were used again. I know that after the Edict that most all Legions, except the 1k Sons, went with the Word laid down by Big E, except where the word had not been heard. I wasn't sure if they showed or stated anything in the FW HH: Betrayal book. This all goes to my version/idea of Pre/Heresy style DA. I am doing a mixture of RT and BL HH stuff. And I am trying to see what all info I can get to make a better decision on what I do. So far thanks for all the info! Anymore would be most appreciated. So it looks like I "may" be shaving off the Demon skulls and adding a Torch in it's place. Sadly I don't have many RT books beyond W40k RT, RoC: StD and the Compendium. and the only thing I can see is the Grey Knight Librarian with a Torch on top of an Aquila on his right shoulder pad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheForgottenAngel Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 In the Descent of Angels the Librarian who talks with Zahariel had the Horned Skull icon on his pauldron. I think in Chapter 14 or 15. This was early Pre-Heresy era since he was one of the first to descend on Caliban and discovered The Lion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarkassBC Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 I checked the book... the librarian has something similar to a skull with horns on the top of his staff. With all the technogothic imagery it would be possible to use an human skull... but not a demon skull!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheForgottenAngel Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 Yeah just saw that too, probably could get away with a demon skull or a human skull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harleqvin Posted October 29, 2012 Author Share Posted October 29, 2012 I thought it was in there. Don't have my copy handy. Left it at work. Will check that out asap. thanks CW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oir Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 I spose the staff and the psychic hood would have marked them out, that and the colour of their armour. I would have thought the book iconography would be slightly too close to that of the Word Bearers Did they actually have Psychic hoods then? I don't think it's part of their wargear in Betrayal... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demus Ragnok Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 I spose the staff and the psychic hood would have marked them out, that and the colour of their armour. I would have thought the book iconography would be slightly too close to that of the Word Bearers Did they actually have Psychic hoods then? I don't think it's part of their wargear in Betrayal... Psyshic hoods are mentioned in the Dark Angels novels and there is a Thousand Sons marine that is mentioned using one in that book about that giant ship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harleqvin Posted October 30, 2012 Author Share Posted October 30, 2012 Psychic hoods are noted in the current HH series for Preheresy. I remember them in Fallen Angels. Thanks to CW and also noted by KarkassBC Quote with same spelling/punctuation as in my copy of Descent of Angels page 246 - "His armour was adorned with all manner of symbols that Zahariel did not recognise, and he carried a golden staff topped with a device that resembled a horned skull." So there is some proof of the Horned Skull with the Librarius in Preheresy. It would just be nice to have some more supporting info. I guess I should have said Horned Skull and not Demon Skull. ^_^ :D Anyone else seen any mention in any of the other HH series of books saying anything about Marines/Librarians in the Librarius/Librarium having a Horned Skull on them somewhere in it? I am doing a Pre/Heresy DA army. This info is helping me with my Librarian/Counts as Ezekiel model. http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;#entry3223871 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheForgottenAngel Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 I'm making a Pre-Heresy Dark Angels army as well focusing on the Caliban born Marines. I want to use the Librarian from DV but its difficult to justify using it for Pre-Heresy. What do you all think? I'm making a Pre-Heresy Dark Angels army as well focusing on the Caliban born Marines. I want to use the Librarian from DV but its difficult to justify using it for Pre-Heresy. What do you all think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harleqvin Posted October 30, 2012 Author Share Posted October 30, 2012 I say go for it. there isn't much on it that wouldn't be from that era. At least from what we have gathered so far. i don't know if there were Force Swords but there definitely were Staves. That could be a moderate conversion for how the left arm is. only thing extra might be needed is a pistol in a holster. easy way to show wysiwyg for bolt/plasmaPistol. the armor could be Mk IV or VI. Which is in for up to Heresy. Bionic eyes were in. Fallen Angels. We know of at least one Caliban born Libby. Zahariel. if you are meaning because of Nikea, There is supporting evidence that the DA on Caliban didn't know about it for some reason (either that it didn't get to them in time, the time frame for the edict hadn't happened yet for the bulk of the story in Fallen Angels or someone kept the info from them.) Israfael was very much for the Emperor and would do all that the Big E says and he was still set up in his Libby gear during Fallen Angels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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