Kol Saresk Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 Okay, it is common knowledge that since The Outcast Dead came out that the timeline has been a bit wonky, you know with the warning being made before Istvaan III but arriving after Istvaan V. Well another thing had been bugging me to, the secondary message that hid in the first and told Atharva to turn Traitor. Now, we know that while Magnus may not have been the most obedient son, he was Loyal right up until the moment he grew a backbone, took Tzeentch's offer of salvation and subsequently has aforementioned backbone broken over Russ's knee. Now, on a side note, one of the most common knowledge facts about the warp is that time is always in flux. A crew could spend years trying to reach a destination traveling through the warp only to arrive five minutes before their help was even needed. And the inverse can happen as well. So what I am proposing is this, what if Magnus' warning of future events traveled not to another place in the exact time-setting, but instead traveled through into the future, after Istvaan V and that the already future daemon-prince Magnus sent another message alongside it to Atharva as it was the perfect way to be undetected at that point in time? And what if when the Space Wolves were ordered to apprehend Magnus, the message from the future-tense Emperor had traveled back in time as well to the present-tense Space Wolves, since I believe from their POV, Istvaan had not happened yet? It still has some glaring flaws in it but it's the closest thing to solving the timeline I've heard. I mean, weirder stuff has happened in 40k(Thunderwolves and Heldrake, I'm looking at you.). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Colossus Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 it's a nice theory. The Warp has always been described with non-linear time, but it usually just ends up in stories as time dilation or compression when compared with the actual reality. Although, non-linear time is hard to describe, unless each individual experiences it at a normal rate, and in the correct order. If they don't, well CSM's have a real reason for being insane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc1138 Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 I like the theory. Would be nice to see some actual consequences for the warp being outside of time, instead of it meaning "the warp is weird." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthamal Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 I'd have to say it's perfectly possible and plausible. Take the Blood Angels for example. They were dispatched to Signus roughly at the same time as the events at the end of false gods took place but by the time they left we are at the point after the end of Know No Fear. Even accounting for the amount of time needed to muster a Legion of over 100k plus the supporting fleet and army elements that's a heck of a long time to be stuck inside a snow globe of a star system. The other obvious example that springs to mind is the Ultramarines since they received their mobilization orders at the same time as the Blood Angels and accounting for the choppy nature of warp travel at that time plus an ever larger muster than the aforementioned Angels, they just happen to complete this as the Word Bearers show up having bided their time from before the purging at Istvaan III and the Dropsite Massacre and still traveled a quarter of the galaxy. Bottom line, with warp travel, anything and everything is fair game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raulmichile Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 And by the way, very difficult to comprehend and even more to explain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveNYC Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 It works to explain the timeline, but it means that the core tragedy of the 1k Sons becomes dependent on 'because magic'. The other thing is that Magnus didn't send a message exactly, he projected himself in the warp and from there to Terra via the webway. It doesn't make much difference if we're going to rely on warp magic to explain things, but that would mean that Magnus himself went into the future (as far as past and future have any meaning in a realm without linear time), was detected by his future Daemon Prince self, and somehow had an additional chunk of info tagged onto him for the trip to Terra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted November 29, 2012 Author Share Posted November 29, 2012 Actually, assuming time travel is actually possible, it wouldn't be magic but actually a field of physics we simply haven't experienced yet although that could be considered magic much in the same way that Native Americans thought muskets and, believe it or not, letters were magic simply because it was technology they didn't have yet and they did not possess true written language and they certainly did not communicate with it. That's the catch though, in 40k the warp is not magic but instead is the very stuff of miracles, something that can break open the laws of physics and nature and by doing so, rewrite reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveNYC Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 I didn't mean magic in the sense that the warp is magic. Although as far as lableing goes, 'magic' is about as good a term to use as anything. I just meant that the warp has few set rules outside of the fact it echos emotions, so bringing it in to try and explain the timeline issue is basically making that plot bit hinge on a deus ex machina. It's an establised deus ex machina, but it's still, IMO, sloppy writing on the part of the author that the book needs it (or something similar) in order to not break the HH series. Not to mention that it still leaves the issue that the events still don't match up with the timing of the contacts between Horus, Magnus, and Russ in the initial trilogy. Horus gets word pre-Istvaan III that Russ is heading to Prospero, and post-Istvaan V that Magnus wants to have a chat. If Magnus showed up on Terra post V due to warpiness, then the burning of Prospero would have also happened post-V, which totally doesn't square with False Gods and Galaxy in Flames. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted November 29, 2012 Author Share Posted November 29, 2012 Actually that would be why it would work. Everything that is set in reality stays in its perspective "timezone", it is only the things that are moving through the warp that aren't confined to a perspective "timezone" and as such, it creates a confluence of the past, present and future where each becomes relative to the observer, not the actual state of the universe. Think of it like a really convoluted Dr. Who plot. Or the plot of anything involving Time Travelers really. If you notice, while the Travelers realize they are so far in the future or past, their "present" is always in flux. It is no linger the time period they originally came from, but the passage of time that they observe as it happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveNYC Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 You're going to have to run it by me how Magnus showing up and wrecking house on Terra post Istvaan V (per Outcast Dead) causes the Emperor to send the Space Wolves to Prospero prior to Istvaan III (per False Gods). Unless I'm misremembering things, at the end of False Gods, Horus knows that Magnus knows that he has turned and is worried that Magnus could take away the punchbowl before the party even gets started. Lucky for him, he gets a message from Russ saying that he is on the way to Prospero to deal with Magnus. Hilarity and hyjinks ensue. The warp can explain how Magnus sent a message to Terra prior to Istvaan III, but it only arrived after Istvaan V, but something still needs to happen to explain why Russ was already on the way to Propsero before the message arrived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted November 30, 2012 Author Share Posted November 30, 2012 Okay, essentially, the timeline is "right". When everything happens is when it happens. What I am saying is that the linear progression is what doesn't happen. Magnus sends his warning pre-Istvaan III. It travels through the warp where there is no true passage of time and arrives at Terra post-Istvaan V. Now, at this point, Magnus still believes that he is in his "present", which is in pre-Istvaan III even though the Terra he arrived to is actually post-Istvaan V. Now, my memory of Prospero Burns is a little fuzzy, but IIRC their viewpoint is still pre-Istvaan III and that they did not receive their orders through a face-to-face meeting. So, the message that they received came from the time period of post-Istvaan V as it traveled through the warp as well and arrived to them while they are still in the time period of pre-Istvaan III. So, Prospero is still razed pre-Istvaan III even though those on Terra believed that it happened post-Istvaan V because they received the message. Now, from Athrava's point of view on the post-Istvaan V Terra, he received a message from a Magnus who was somewhat aware of events that were going to happen on Terra and that message told Atharva to capture the astropath who received the vision of how the Siege would end and to take that astropath to Horus to aid the Traitors. Now, while the pre-Prospero Magnus may have been unruly, he was still loyal to the Emperor right up until the moment Arhiman begged him to help fight the Wolves towards the end of the razing. Which again suggests that the message came from a future version of Magnus. And since the message to Atharva was a telepathic broadcast and not the warp-spirit of Magnus helps reinforce the viewpoint that it was always meant to be hidden by someone who knew that it would arrive at the same time as when the warp-spirit of the then-mortal-pre-Istvaan III Magnus arrived on post-Istvaan V Terra. Essentially, the passage of time that normally accompanies the traveling of distance doesn't exist because the warp which experiences non-linear time was used by the Chaos Gods to manipulate when each message would arrive. Essentially, this theory fully depends on the fact that there is no passage of time in the warp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apothecary Vaddon Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 It makes sense, because all you're doing is playing off what's already established about the Warp - time sucks. Sort of reminded me of all the time travel episodes in the Stargate series, actually - Moebius in particular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted November 30, 2012 Author Share Posted November 30, 2012 Actually it hit me when I was rewatching the episode of Dr. Who with the Angels(the one with David Tennant) and he makes a comment "Time isn't linear, it's this wibbly, wobbly mush that has no linear cause and effect." Case in point was proven when at the end of the episode, someone tells a past incarnation of the Doctor that was in their present time that something would happen to him in the future and he would get stuck in 1970-something and he would have to help them help him get out just like he did with their past incarnations earlier on in the episode. Something went "Ding-Dong" because someone had brought up the inconsistency The Outcast Dead had presented and it had always been a major point in the fluff that time was wonky when it came to the warp and I think some of the BL authors are using that to their advantage in the Heresy series, like in the short story The Voice in the Tales of Heresy anthology. Although Stargate did do a good job of making me go "Huh?" in those episodes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apothecary Vaddon Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 Man, I need to pick up Dr. Who. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Ridcully Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 The astartes and primarchs do all have two hearts........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveNYC Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 I still have an issue with Outcast Dead contradicting timeline elements from False Gods, Galaxy in Flames, and A Thousand Sons. It's also a little wonky in regards to Deliverance Loat. Per ATS: 1) Message was sent to Terra prior to Istvaan III. Per Outcast Dead: 1) Message was received at Terra post-Istvaan V. Per False Gods: 1) Russ contacts Horus while on his way to deal with Magnus prior to Istvaan III. Messing with causality is fine, even the original Terminator movie kind of does it with John Connor's conception being dependent on Skynet trying to kill him. The thing is, I don't see that when I look at those three points I listed. Instead I see an event that happened on Thursday triggering a response on Tuesday. Basically if there was time travel involved to have Magnus arrive on Terra after Istvaan V, then why were the Wolves heading to Prospero prior to Istvaan III? Not to mention that if the Wolves are crushing Prospero prior to Magnus' message reaching Terra, then the Wolves and/or the Emperor are being a bigger bunch of chowderheads than is usual for the Warhammer universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted November 30, 2012 Author Share Posted November 30, 2012 That's why the theory also says that the orders for the Wolves went from post-Istvaan V Terra to the pre-Istvaan III Space Wolves. Basically, Magnus' message isn't the only one that time jumped. It's the past influencing the future influencing the past. After that, it's a matter of warp storms surrounding whatever sector Prospero is in and isolating the Space Wolves. Because Terra receives a response from the Wolves that the Wolves are heading to Terra, they think the Wolves are currently heading to Prospero even though the Wolves are already there because the communications between the Wolves and Terra are "time-jumping" the same way that Magnus' message did. It's all one big hot mess of effect(the Razing of Prospero) proceeding the causality(Terra ordering the Wolves to Prospero) even though the causality and effect of Magnus' message went from Pre-Istvaan III Prospero to Post-Istvaan V Terra by time jumping into the future in the exact opposite of how Terra's orders to the Wolves went from the future to the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cactus Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 By George, I think he's got it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 My head hurts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarkassBC Posted December 2, 2012 Share Posted December 2, 2012 Sincerely I find very hard to follow the time-related explanation. I will find more believable a future BL book that describe the impossible arrival of the Emperor at the end of WH40K. The Emperor wounded by Horus was a future copy of himself coming back in the past to try to change the loyalist victory at the Siege of Terra and the final triumph of Chaos and the current 30K Emperor coming back from a warp-time bubble during the teleporting attack on Horus's flagship, while sent in the past to create the entire Primarch project... Coming back to the Magnus warning, if the explanation is the biggest Warp anomality, the only possible reason is a massive trap created by the Chaos Gods. In that case there is a relevant change for Magnus... he was not tricked to accept the trade flesh change curse + escape from Prospero against Tzeentch worship but completely betrayed under every possible side... Completely unbelievable for me if Magnus doesn't want to revenge against everyone that betrayed him... and not Russ (for him only a loyal dog). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apothecary Vaddon Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 I didn't want to create another thread just for a hardback novella, but there's an interesting continuity error it seems: Flesh of Cretacia mentions the Star Phantoms as being active a mere few centuries after the end of the Heresy. IA: Badab War (according to the Lex) has them pegged as a 23rd Founding Chapter - in M38. Does anyone know more about the Phantoms? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandmaster Anaziel Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 I didn't want to create another thread just for a hardback novella, but there's an interesting continuity error it seems: Flesh of Cretacia mentions the Star Phantoms as being active a mere few centuries after the end of the Heresy. IA: Badab War (according to the Lex) has them pegged as a 23rd Founding Chapter - in M38. Does anyone know more about the Phantoms? It's very possible that the original Star Phantoms chapter(from the novella you mentioned) were wiped out. And then a 23rd founding chapter was reissued their name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Tates Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 I still have an issue with Outcast Dead contradicting timeline elements from False Gods, Galaxy in Flames, and A Thousand Sons. It's also a little wonky in regards to Deliverance Loat. Per ATS: 1) Message was sent to Terra prior to Istvaan III. Per Outcast Dead: 1) Message was received at Terra post-Istvaan V. Per False Gods: 1) Russ contacts Horus while on his way to deal with Magnus prior to Istvaan III. Going by the above statement, isn't it possible that the author of Outcast Dead made a boo-boo? That novel is the sore thumb in the middle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 3, 2012 Author Share Posted December 3, 2012 Technically the order of the books is "False Gods", "A Thousand Sons" and "The Outcast Dead." The problem is all three books have the same author. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFacelessMan Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 I'm listening to the audio book right now, and there are certain aspects that I missed on the first read that back this up. The astropaths mention at least twice before Magnus's message that Prospero has been entirely silent, and they blame that on Magnus pouting, but now I think it's because they've already been hit by the Wolves. From Prospero Burns, it seems as if Russ was charged with simply bringing Magnus and the 1k Sons back to Terra to stand trial for breaking the edict. It was only when they resisted that it blew up in everybody's face. So what if the Wolves were sent by the Emperor prior to everything because: 1. The 1k Sons were breaking the edict. They were training their humans still, and the general population was still using psyker powers 2. The Emperor got a warp echo of Magnus's message before it arrived. Which is why the Emperor was sad and didn't even take heed of the message, because he already knew it was coming and what it would do, and he already knew about Horus by the time it got there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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