Ronin_eX

Most likely an error. For some reason GW always screw up the wording when it comes to equipping Deathwing. It's basically a running joke at this point. For safety purposes, I'd just assume the heavy weapon replaces the storm bolter.

Except that doesn't check out. With a 5 man squad, at 3 casualties, you have a 1/36 chance of losing 1 more dude. (Only on a 6 with a reroll) If you lose 4, you have a 1/9ish chance to lose 1 or 2 guys. If you high roll, you lose a squad, but still only 1/36. If you lose 5, you don't worry about morale, squad is dead. In a 10 man squad however, you lose 5, and you have a 1/4 chance of losing more dudes Ok, just for giggle. I used an online dice roller to add in the "luck factor" 5 mane squad taking 3 casualties: rolled 20 times taking into the re-roll they get for failed tests. 10 x rolls: 7 fails "without" the re-roll, 5 fail with the re-roll. squad dead or down to the last man. 10x rolls: 3 fails "without" the re-roll, 0 fail with the re-roll. squad is just fine. That being rolled with have 1 or the 2 remaining marines still the sergeant. If he is lost the odds are a bit higher. Your fractions are sound and probably on the mark, unfortunately D6 dice luck doesn't care. The pendulum swings both ways. If it was a D20 or a D100 game i would probably bet on your odds, in a D6 game I would not, the pass/fail distinction is too tight. I didn't bother with 4 casualties because the squad is effectively combat ineffective and can be finished off after or ignored. (Or will he? again dice luck) The days of trying to min max like this are over i'm afraid and i can't honestly say i will miss them myself. Horde armies are going to have their turn this edition. The days of min/maxed unites like this one just as an example are gone. GW did this on purpose to increase sales and to bring back the game for new players to actually get into and not get stomped flat by stuff like this as in previous editions. There will be new meta builds I'm sure, but a 10 man squad is still better(and cheaper if your using power points), it can be split into 2 5 man squads if you really really feel the need to take smaller squads. I know all the above may come off sounding very argumentative, it is not meant to be so, I do not "argue" anything here on the B&C, read it and imagine Morgan Freeman saying it. that always helps. In the end everyone has their own opinions. It isn't just one d6 though, a re-roll means we get a similar probability curve (well, peak) to a 2d6 roll. A marine squad taking 3 casualties will only care about a morale roll of 6. With a re-roll, this means you need to roll 6 twice (box cars) to eat the additional casualty. A single d6 does have a totally linear distribution and any single result is as likely as any other, but the bottom line is marines don't roll a single d6. Further, rolling 20 test rolls wont really give you an idea of how this pans out in practice. I just did my own test and got through 41 roll before the hypothetical marine unit took an additional casualty. But that isn't accurate either. In general, expect (in the case of a 5 man squad suffering 3 casualties) 1-in-36 morale checks to actually fail. Your test roll where you got 5 complete failures in 20 is a 1-in-60,466,176 chance. Hell, if that occurred you shouldn't have done a test roll for marine morale, you should have bought a lottery ticket. Probability isn't about predicting how often the dice will fail you, it is about giving you a statistically sound foundation upon which to make decisions. They can still succeed or fail more frequently than is normal, but that doesn't change what we can tell about things. Bottom line, marines are actually most efficient going for smaller squads, and I think this is by design. Marines have always been the MSU faction (hell, if we weren't combat squads wouldn't have been a thing for 20 years). Just like Orks and Nids are encouraged to go for larger units due to their morale rules, marines get the most bang for their buck out of small squads. Take the example of a single 10-man marine squad that eats six casualties and two 5-man marine squads that eat three each. The first one will fail a morale check on a 3+ and take additional casualties. The two small squads will only take an additional casualty on a 6 and due to the way things work out, they can make a re-roll with absolute safety that the result wont be any worse than the failure they re-roll on. Or what about the case where one of the 5-man squads eats the firepower that did 6 casualties to the 10-man? In that case, sure the squad is dead, but it leaves the second squad totally unscathed. Now this isn't to say marines never want large units. Assault encourages big units for protracted combats so that each activation is causing maximal casualties. So things like Assault Squads probably want to spring for being a 10-man if you want them getting stuck in. But marine shooting units? They still like being minimum size whether it is via buying small squads (which in the current detachment system is preferable where possible) or by splitting 10-man units in to combat squads. Horde armies are finally getting a go, but that is due to specific rules in their armies that help them out. Marines still have rules that encourage small elite units instead of large ones. Large ones wont get you stomped, but they are still quite clearly the better choice for marines. They work better with our morale rules, they help us fill out detachments (allowing for more CPs) and in quite a few cases allow us to maximize our firepower. MSU is still the best route for marines, hordes are great, but they are great because things like conscript blobs+Commissar, synapse, and mob rule. A horde without morale bonuses and low leadership quickly gets whittled down by morale, which is why most hordes have something to ignore or mitigate the effect. Marines have a rule that best supports small, well-equipped units and I can't help but think that that is also by design.

In general, the good old SB+PF terminator is a CQB/Close Combat focused unit now. As such I think we need to be cognizant of how we're dropping them on to the field and how important getting at least one first turn charge off will be. First things first, we have plenty of anti-horde close combat options and combinations. The Deathwing Ancient is damn near indispensable for that +1 attack and Belial is a must-have for his all-phase to-hit re-roll bubble. I don't think Azrael is very suited to the Deathwing, for a better character to follow your ground-pounders (at least one squad in an LRC with a couple character in tow is a good plan that gives you a bunch of units to play with) pick Asmodai. When paired with a pure CC squad (and hopefully the Ancient) a unit of DWKs can become pure melee blenders (especially with the Flail allowing overflow damage to pass on). The Deathwing Champ is also an interesting anti-horde unit. Against units of 5+ models he is getting 5-6 S7, AP-4, D3 damage attacks. That is enough to threaten a great many units. The minor characters are a new paradigm that we would be remiss not to explore further. The utility added by the Apothecary, Ancient, and Champ are interesting and also come at a pretty good price in most cases. And of course, we should also be keeping in mind things like the Rifleman Dread as a potential cheap shooty unit. That is 8 shots, S7, AP-1, dealing 2 damage each. It can handle light anti-vehicle work, it can deal with infantry, and if it digs down in to cover on the back line it can be real hard to shift. That 136 for the basic model or 156 for a venerable (if you like running more thematic pure DW). DW are still pricey and will still likely have an uphill struggle in some matchups. But I think we can get a lot of mileage out of this basic setup: 1) A core of flexible shooty+assault focused DW terminators. Either Assault Cannon or CML equipped. Form them up around Belial and an Ancient. On the first or second turn, use a CP to improve chances of getting at least one charge off the drop. Engaging and at least pinning a single unit will be invaluable. 2) A core assaulty unit, like DWK's formed up around at least Asmodai, and optionally a champ. Pop them in a LRC and roll them forward. If the enemy focuses on the DW right in their face, then the LRC will have an easy time coming in. If they try to split focus, the LRC will be hard to take out with unfocused shooting and will absord a ton of punishment as it rolls in. 3) A back line composed of ranged dreads or even battle company support elements. What DW really tend to lack is cheap, long-ranged firepower. If you are married to DW only, Rifleman Dreads are great again. If you are flexible, have a look at the Razorback and maybe an embarked Devastator squad or two. So long as we have some weighty 48" fire on the field, we'll have some things to make the enemy sweat. I'd caution going too heavy on the Land Raiders in either case. While we are no longer penalized for not using an expensive teleport-related ability, mech is super expensive in this edition and Land Raiders are among the priciest. In a 2000 point game, I can't see taking more than one. Above that? I'd probably spring for a second standard-pattern one to bring another 5-man assault unit to the party alongside the main event assault unit. They provide excellent anti-tank (but sadly their transport capacity just isn't enough to run a 5-man and a character). I don't think infantry+some transport Deathwing is really workable. Terminators are great shock troops where they can hit a single weak point in the enemy line, but if they have nothing else around they will still get enveloped and overwhelmed. But we have a lot of new tools (minor characters and buff auras) as well as a lot of old friends returning in new and improved forms (Dreads and Land Raiders) that can really help the cause out. Deathwing will still be a niche list with a high learning curve, of that I am sure. But I think we're more flexible and workable than we've been in eons. But then, I sort of cut my teeth playing Deathwing back when they were 60 points per model base and had worse weapons (2nd Edition), or 52 points per model base and had worse weapons, a worse save, and had the 3rd Edition Craftworld Eldar codex to contend with. Deathwing have never had it easier, but I look forward to the new list paradigm where we are a bit more flexible and wont simply be chumped by every army on the planet. Hell, with GW revising lists every year, maybe we will find terminators are a hair to expensive and they'll get a price break somewhere (my guess is to build the power fist cost in to the profile like the DCCW on the Ironclad and make it a bit cheaper on terminators if the cost is an issue). It's better chances than we've had in over 20 years at least, so I'll gladly take the odds and run with them to see how we fair this time around. It's going to take a lot of brainstorming to get used to the new tools we have, and I think it will require some vastly different strategies than those we were used to employing in the past. Mech-wing with an assault focus (4th Edition pseudo-codex, possibly our strongest point in history) is too costly to run at most standard point levels (but then, it is for all marines). Pure null-deploy is no longer a thing (though we no longer rely on RW for precision either). Some kind of middle ground perhaps. Assault-focused but without giving up on heavy amounts of high-impact shooting. Dreads and Land Raiders can really bring the thunder these days, terminators have basically doubled their shooting output per squad while being twice as durable against small arms fire, and characters offer a suite of buffs that affect whole portions of our army. It is, at the very least, interesting times for us and I'll be interested to see where we sit after a year or so of play.

This is part of it, yes. They aren't a one stop shop in this edition as they were in 3rd. Mech is expensive and they need more specialized support. This is where I'm liking the new paradigm. They are cheap(ish) and flexible units, but not the only thing you should take (especially not if you're aiming for some of the more balanced detachments). The main reason I was pointing it out was down to a lot of baggage the past editions have built up over the years with regards the the three, core marine squads. Originally, the whole "Troops capture objectives" rules push was to mitigate the fact that most troops units were not useful compared to the more powerful specialists in a given army, and thus many armies took minimum-sized troop squads to get it out of the way and take the better units in the list. So GW basically just made troops straight up mandatory. 6-man lasplas was kind of interesting because for once, tacticals were actually useful in comparison to their more specialized brethren and it managed to do it in an environment where there was no onus to take more than minimum-sized trooper units. With things swinging back toward troops no longer being a required component of a list, there was a danger that tacticals may get overshadowed again (and certainly that precise thing happened with the rise of the biker swarm). However, in opening up a bit more firepower to them, I think GW may have given them a bit of a boost, enough so that one may want to use them because of their capabilities rather than because they are simply an onerous list requirement. I don't think I would suggest spamming them either since you don't gain much from spamming endless troops either. But they seem like a good pick when going for some of the more balanced detachments because they are both useful and also not terribly pricey for what they bring to the table. So they can fill out slots and give some flexible firepower while they're at it.

Yeah, I know, a bit of a click-bait topic. But I'm not sorry! *is Canadian, is definitely sorry* *ahem* So, 8th edition has finally seen fit to give me back my proper combi-weapons again. No more of this 1-shot malarky. What's more, hidden fists (or what have you) can actually be a thing again with wound allocation being back in the defender's wheelhouse (and challenges being gone). So now our sergeants have become unofficial special weapon carriers and fists are a good choice on them again. What's more, the lascannon is a decent anti-vehicle (well anti-abunchofstuff) choice again and the Razorback is a fantastic IFV that is both tough and a hard hitter. So dare I say it? I think tactical squads may well be a viable choice in and of themselves again. What's more, because it is the sergeant carrying the other big gun, for once the very concept no longer feels unfluffy. Now, a few changes due to the new edition. First, making it 6-man is optional. With changes to morale, 5-man is likely more optimal, but 13 points for another body isn't a bad plan either. With marines having Ld 8 and a re-rollable morale, there is only a 1-in-36 chance of losing an additional marine if you get three casualties (i.e. 50-60% of the unit). So making it 5-man or 6-man is really a judgement call. If you have the points to spare, I say fill the Razorback with the extra body. Other downsides? Well, combi-weapons are a touch more expensive than a normal special weapon because they can fire from each weapon (at a -1 to hit) which probably isn't worth it unless you're sitting on re-rolls. Oh, and Razorbacks are quite expensive these days (even compared to their cost back in 3rd when the lasplas was contemporary). Finally, with the change to how transports work, no firing out of the RB this time around. But I think marines being so much tougher than before while in cover alongside the mobile heavy weapons makes up for this quite a bit. But what does this unit look like in practice? For 138 points you are getting a combi-plasma, a fist, a lascannon, and six pairs of boots on the ground. This unit can deal with heavy infantry reasonably well, it can deal with monstrous creatures better than the equivalent in 3rd Edition (due to 2nd Edition style multi-wound making a return), and it can deal with basic troopers. Plasma now has opt-in supercharge, so no risk of losing the sergeant unless you deem it worth the risk (have a Captain on standbye providing a Rite bubble for best effect). Basically, like its namesake of old, it offers great flexibility at a relatively low cost. For extra savings you can drop the fist and/or the extra body making the unit either 118 points or 125 respectively (or 105 without either). Meanwhile, for some extra anti-infantry and light-vehicle oomph the twin assault cannon Razorback is looking like a pretty mean pillbox. Grab it a hunter-killer missile and a storm bolter (because why not) and it comes in at 108 points. So for 246 points you get: 6 MeQ bodies (which with the new cover rules and the new way Strength and Toughness interact are a lot tougher than they used to be) 1 RB body (quite tough now) 6-12 bolter shots (bolter marines+storm bolter on RB, 7-14 if the sergeant double-taps) 1-2 plasma shots (sergeant) 1 lascannon shot 12 assault cannon shots 1 H-K missile shot (one-time deal) This unit has the flexibility to deal with any target, fire-splitting means that lascannon can always go where it needs to and those bolter shots never go to waste. And if you're looking to fill out the more stringent detachments, a 6-man lasplas is a cheap troop choice (the RB is optional if you're trying to maximize models-per-point of course). Now, I'm not saying that this is definitely some kind of massive power unit that all must take. More just a thought exercise on a possible return of a squad configuration that saw the tactical marine become our prize unit several editions back. With the last several editions pushing troops-for-troops sake rather than giving us a compelling reason to take tactical in and of themselves, I thought it was interesting that this unit configuration might be able to make a comeback and breath some new life in to the tactical squad. And by all means, lasplas may not even be the best combo anymore. Meltalas, lasgrav, flamalas? Who knows. And the RB is super flexible and could easily fill a role beyond being a pillbox. So yeah, tactical squads have the potential for a bit more oomph in this edition, whether or not it will be worth the cost, however, will require some actual testing.

Well, on the plus side, we're no longer beholden to teleporting in just to get our special rules. So you can run some ground based dreads (TLLC+ML is pretty good for putting some damage on tanks from a distance, stick it in cover and it can be hard to shift), and maybe drop a DW Ancient, an Interrogator-Chaplain, and a squad of Knights in an LRC (maybe even invite a DW Champion for some more oomph). With those mini-heroes counting as units, you'd be surprised at how few models you need on the ground to give you a good amount in the sky. That should give you leeway for Belial and a swack of shooty Deathwing to teleport in and crumple the enemy line (and maybe even get a charge off).

Nope, still possible. The entry for the CML is now "Cyclone missile launcher and storm bolter". So you grab the CML, it comes with a SB, you replace your SB and fist with a TH/SS or claws.

Here's where I have to disagree. Yes we got a wound, but so did all terminators. So we lost fortress of shields. Smite is nice, but we only get 2 A now, losing one from charging and another from hammer of wrath. Also they are +3 to hit, so just as good to hit as a normal marine. And to throw insult to injury, the Inner Circle /Deathwing /Unforgiven special rule now only applies to Fallen and not CSM. Turn 1 deepstrike with assaulting is great and definitely needed but I still feel like these guys lost a lot of what made them different from other terminators. Just how much better are they then a squad of THSS guys who can also take a CML if they want? This is where it is dangerous to ignore the great many changes 8th edition is bringing under the hood. Fortress of Shields? Yeah, T5 was an old breakpoint that had a lot of importance. But with the revised to-wound table, T4 gained a whole lot of oomph that it didn't have before. Now S6 and S7 harms T4 on a 3+ instead of a 2+. T5 only begins to matter at S8 and above, and most S8 stuff is single-shot anti-tank now. The weapons that used to wound terminators on a 2+ and lance through armour were usually S6-7 and AP2. These weapons are no longer quite the threat they were, have gotten more expensive for everyone, and are now often limited in one form or another. Grav weapons? Threatening, but they no longer wound terminators on a 2+ and ignore their armour. Plasma? In order to take a terminator out in one hit, they need to risk immediate annihilation from a bad role. Melta got a price bump and the delivery systems for it (transports, pods, etc.) doubled or even close to trebled in price. That extra wound is far more valuable than situational T5 ever was. Unforgiven only applying to Fallen now? Not a huge issue. First, unless you regularly played Chaos, it was a bit of a waste, and worse it was actually kind of overwhelming for Chaos marines to face us. We aren't the Grey Knights. Deathwing are not hunters of all heretic marines. They hunt the Fallen and this simple rule is a much better representation of that. And either way it's free, so we're not paying for a vestigial rule that may not come up in the game. This iteration is closer to the 2nd Edition Deathwing. Basically, just straight up fearless terminators. And 3+ to hit is apparently bad now? This to-hit is regardless of their target. So where our WS5 could have previously been negated by a skilled opponent, we remain 3+ now. But that's not all, DWK's have one of the few x2 strength weapons that doesn't come with a to-hit penalty. This is the kind of thing reserved for character models in most forces. Maintaining a 3+ to-hit with a S8 AP-2 D2 close combat attack is huge. That TH/SS squad is great, but more expensive, hits less reliably in hand-to-hand, and that CML is now a pretty big expenditure. A squad of DWK's is 250, a squad of TH/SS with a CML is 330. It hits a bit harder sometimes and is more versatile against some targets, but also costs 80 points more. That's 80 points that can go toward grabbing a Deathwing Ancient to follow them around to regain that extra attack (while providing its own close combat punch). 80 points can go a long way. Hell, even dropping the CML means those TH/SS DW are still eating up an extra 30 points over DWK's. So as a pure assault unit? I think they are generally a better unit than a pure TH/SS DW unit on a point-for-point basis. They come in cheaper and deal better with a wider variety of targets in close combat. Getting to strike at full WS and S8, bleed over wounds, and their general toughness combined with pinpoint teleportation are a huge boon to the unit. And they play very well with the DW heroes we have access to. The things they "lost" are actually basically baked in to the structure of the rules now. They don't need to be T5 when so many old threats to them have had their teeth pulled. They don't need extra bennies when fighting generic CSM because they already hit comparably to one of the most deadly close combat units in the game. And since they hit on an unmodified 3+ and we have cheaper access to an attack boosting support character their loss of attacks isn't a big deal. Want them to hit hard, drop them in with a DW Ancient and Belial and watch them hit harder than they ever did in the last edition (and keep on doing it turn after turn after turn). The old DWK's weren't that great before in the context of their own edition. A bunch of "unique" and quirky special rules that didn't help them get the job done. Plasma and grav didn't care about our T5 and we still died in a stiff breeze of massed small arms fire because we were still one wound. In this edition? T4 with 2W and 2+/3++ is more than enough to get you by due to how the very structure of the game works. There is more at work here than just us losing special rules, the fundamental game structure and assumptions have changed and with it, the kinds of things that constitute good and bad.

Well, he is inside his own re-roll bubble. So at least each shot is only a 1-in-36 chance of overheating when overcharged. But maybe this is the edition where Sableclaw is worth taking because it's less generally risky (and hopefully doesn't die in a stiff breeze).