Brother Tyler

Okay, this is a thing and it's out in the wild now, so it's time to move this over the game's forum.

Let's stay on topic, folks. This topic is about the Iron Hands. There is a whole forum dedicated to the Ultramarines and discussion of their thematic elements should be taken up therein. For my own part, I've never inferred a distinct historical/regional [Terran] culture as being the defining element of the Iron Hands. The names used in the Chapter derive from a variety of sources, but none of those sources appears to drive the thematic appearance of the Legion/Chapter. To me, the core of their theme has always been their reverence for the mechanical and logic over the flesh and emotion. I think the Clan Raukaan codex supplement articulated it fairly clearly: ...and later as... Despite their reverence for the mechanical over flesh and their alignment with the Adeptus Mechanicus, however, I don't see them as being notably more "high tech" than other Chapters. Yes, there are some areas in which they embrace technology in ways that [the majority of] their counterparts do not, such as the methods and means by which the Iron Council works. However, in the millennia since the Second Founding, there is little evidence that they have "more" or "better" technological advances compared to other Chapters. The Legion definitely stood as one of those who led in technological innovation and experimentation during the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy, but that preeminence appears to have stalled since the death of Ferrus Manus. Where they are more technologically inclined than other Chapters is in their willingness to embrace augmetics, typically choosing to replace injured body parts with augmetics even when natural (insofar as their transhuman physiologies are "natural") healing/tissue replacement would suffice. Moreover, they deliberately remove otherwise healthy tissue and replace it with augmetics, including the Forgechain, which is wholly unnecessary. As far as their physical representation in artwork and miniatures, I see the defining element as being the presence of augmetics. Luckily for most of us, many augmetics can be considered as being present while being concealed by armour. There are many bits and models with visible augmetics, however, and both additive manufacturing and skilful sculpting/conversion present opportunities for the more enterprising among us. The typical markings of the Chapter/Legion, too, serve as thematic identifiers, but those markings bear little resemblance to motifs used by historical/regional Terran cultures. Generally speaking, they bear more in common with simplistic modern technologically-oriented logos and icons, which seems perfectly in keeping with the Chapter's theme. In terms of weapons (the catalyst for this discussion), while I agree that the cog-toothed axes of the Adeptus Mechanicus and the hammer of the original kit, not to mention the power fists that harken to the Chapter's/Legion's (and its Primarch's) name, are logical as the typical weapons of the Chapter, there's no reason whatsoever that they should be limited to those weapons. Iron Hands have been depicted in both artwork and model form equipped with swords and normal axes (i.e., non-cogged), and no one has complained that these are inappropriate. If anything, I see the Iron Hands' reliance on logic as driving its members to use whatever weapons seem most appropriate to the circumstances. As with the other Chapters/Legions, they likely have all manner of weapons within their armories, not limiting themselves to a narrow set of weapons. While individuals may have personal preferences, they might reasonably choose different weapons based on their tactical needs. A club or maul is similar to a hammer in terms of its simple brutality. One of the key factors driving the success of this hobby is that the rules allow hobbyists to express their own creativity and individuality in the choices they make with regard to their armies and the modeling opportunities afforded by unit and weapon/wargear selection. Different hobbyists have different views and there is room for significant diversity in army appearance. While each (sub)faction might have some general trends and concepts driving their thematic representation, hobbyists aren't strictly limited - or perhaps it may be more accurate to say that the themes present in each (sub)faction allow for a little more flexibility than some hobbyists think. This allows those hobbyists with narrower views to adhere to their conceptualization of what a (sub)faction "should" be while also allowing other hobbyists to blur the lines a little. After all, while (sub)factions may draw inspiration from specific historical/regional sources, they are certainly influenced in other ways by countless other sources. This is a science fantasy setting that is tens of thousands of years in the future and it is highly unlikely that any (sub)faction would be limited to any one historical/regional source. Consider how much intermingling there is of influences in modern times (or at any time in history) and then consider how things might develop over the next 28,000 years, especially given the drastic changes that impacted human civilization over that time in the fictional setting. There are those among us who have well-defined preferences regarding the theme of the Iron Hands, and there's nothing wrong with that. Conversely, there are others who have no problem with a little more variability, and that's okay, too.

Sometimes my knuckleheadedness astounds me. I've fixed the omission. I will now retire to the pain glove for the evening.

This poll will run through July 31, 2025. On August 1, the winner will join the rotation. #1 #2 #3 #4 #5 #6 #7 #8 #9 The banner with the most votes will be featured in our masthead banner rotation for 2 months, starting Friday, 1 August, 2025.

According to the Internet (which never lies), there were four on the shelf at my Target this morning. There are no longer any on the shelf. I guess there's no point going now.

Why would you jinx me like that?

Well, I guess I'm driving 40 minutes to pick a box up tomorrow.

For those who wish to pursue the discussion about the thematic influences on the Iron Hands and whether or not Caanok Var's club/maul is appropriate to that theme, I've created this discussion in the + ADEPTUS ASTARTES + forum so that we don't disrupt this discussion further.

For those of you that haven't been keeping up on discussions in the + NEWS, RUMORS, AND BOARD ANNOUNCEMENTS + forum, a debate has sprung up around the thematic influences on the Iron Hands Legion/Chapter in the discussion about the latest models and combat patrols announced for the Imperial Fists, Iron Hands, Raven Guard, Salamanders, and White Scars Chapters. If you just crawled out from under a rock, you can see the announcement, which was part of the recent Big Summer Preview, here. The issue arises from the weapon that the new Iron Hands Iron Captain, Caanok Var, is bearing. To simplify things, the image is below. (click the image to see the large version) Many hobbyists have described the weapon as a tetsubō (or kanabō), the studded/spiked war club used in Feudal Japan, both in history as well as in legend (e.g., by the mythical oni). That is not an inaccurate description, though it should be remembered that studded/spiked war clubs were not confined to the Far East, having been used by various cultures across the world, not to mention primitive post-apocalyptic settings such as Neegan's Lucille. Examples can be found in pre-Columbian Mesoamerica, sub-Saharan Africa, across Europe (including Ancient Greece), etc. More importantly, Caanok Var's club includes stylistic choices that are reminiscent of the various mauls that are used by the Adeptus Arbites. The controversy (okay, it's controversial to some, but not to others) stems from whether or not the club is accurate to the Legion's/Chapter's theme, whether you base that on the cultural influences that you perceive or from precedents from other Iron Hands models. Some people like (or accept) the club and others don't, and that's okay. The "debate" was becoming disruptive in the context of the NRBA discussion, but it's worth pursuing, so this topic has been created so that members can identify the various thematic influences they see on the Iron Hands Legion/Chapter and how those influences might be represented on models. It is important to remember that while there are a few key elements of the Legion's/Chapter's theme, the overall theme of the Iron Hands is a lot more subtle and complex than some of the more overtly themed Chapters such as the Space Wolves and Blood Angels (both of which also have myriad other subtle influences woven into the more obvious elements). Different hobbyists are going to focus on different things, emphasizing those things and de-emphasizing other things. Where one hobbyist might see the Iron Hands being X, others may see them as being Y or Z. There is no right or wrong answer here.

The Spartans are one of the core thematic elements of the Adeptus Astartes in general, however. Other Chapters might emphasize other cultural influences (e.g., the Space Wolves and the Northern European cultures that are more overtly represented in their theme while the White Scars might emphasize their Mongolian/East Asian sources), but all Chapters use rigorous training and education to turn young males into warriors, and only a few Chapters don't embrace ascetism (e.g., the Blood Angels and their artistic endeavors). Even if the Iron Hands lore explicitly uses "agoge" (I'm not sure as I've only read one of the Iron Hands novels - the first one), that doesn't mean that they are solely/primarily modeled after the Spartans. As the input of most members here indicates, other influences are clearly evident, to the point that many members don't see the influence of Ancient Greece in general of the Spartans in particular as defining elements of the Iron Hands. It's a highly subjective issue, of course, as everyone is going to key on certain things and de-emphasize other things. However, the discussion about the theme of the Iron Hands would probably be better conducted in a dedicated topic in the + ADEPTUS ASTARTES + forum, especially if it is conducted as an exploration of the various thematic influences on the Chapter and accepts that different members are going to have different conclusions. Getting back on topic... I realized that I omitted my thoughts on the combat patrols. At this point I'm more focused on the Kill Team game, so I don't have a lot to offer on the combat patrols in terms of their comparability or effectiveness. One thing that did stand out to me, though, was the fact that only one of the new combat patrols features the Chapter's champion model - Suboden Khan rides alongside some of his White Scars brothers. I'm curious about the other new models not appearing in their respective combat patrols.

Regarding Caanok Var's maul, while I can see why people are referring to it as a tetsubō, I see it more as just a brutal Adeptus Astartes upscaling of the mauls used by the Adeptus Arbites (see the Subductor and the Proctor-Exactant). While the tetsubō (or kanabō) is an apt description of Var's maul, spiked/studded clubs were used by numerous cultures around the world. Moreover, while one can see some influences from Ancient Greece in the Iron Hands Legion/Chapter, there are many other influences. When the 3rd edition Index Astartes article was published for the Chapter, few would have pointed to Ancient Greece as the primary thematic influence. For those who choose to focus on Ancient Greece as the core influence for their Iron Hands models, the easy thematic justification for Var's maul would be Heracles and his club. Var's maul might be described as a hi-tech version of that demigod's weapon. Regardless, thematic influences are rarely, if ever, limiting factors on the forces of the setting. The most nuanced representations incorporate multiple influences to create more sophisticated entities, avoiding the pitfall of simplistic "X in space" caricatures. So even if one sees Ancient Greece as the primary influence for the Iron Hands (I would point to the Minotaurs, Iron Snakes, and Ultramarines as the more obvious inheritors of such a theme), that doesn't mean that the Iron Hands necessarily need to be limited to and by that theme. Allowing the incorporation of elements from other sources would provide more depth and character, allowing the Iron Hands to be more than just the Argonauts in space. Everyone is entitled to do their own thing with their models, however, so it's fine for one player to impose an Ancient Greece limit and just as fine for another player to allow other influences. Getting back to the miniatures... I think the Vulkan He'Stan model is a huge improvement over the previous model. I have always hated the Gauntlet of the Forge because the placement under the forearm seems like it would be uncomfortable. I'm a fan of the new Darnath Lysander. The proportions are much better, of course, since they bring him in line with the newer Terminators. The chest is less fiddly (easier to paint, cleaner to look at). I also think that the hammer is an improvement over the first model's hammer. As a big fan of the VIIth Legion, I know that this model will definitely be joining my collection (in addition to two of the old Lysander models ). I'm not up to the Aethon Shan lore, but I like that GW has created a situation where a leader has stepped down in favor of another - it gives a depth of character [to Shrike]. And while I love the fact that all of the models (minus Caanok Var?) shown have both bare heads and helmets, I really like that Shaan comes with two bare heads. I can see these becoming fodder for conversions. At the very least, this model gives Raven Guard players the quintessential thematic loadout for their Chapter Master. And the fact that GW has given Raven Guard players a way to model for advantage is telling. Caanok Var is the most interesting to me. I see the static pose as exhibiting the Chapter's stoicism. The weapon, too, is interesting, implying directness and brutality. And while I don't dislike it, I can see why some would. Luckily, it looks like it will be pretty easy to convert into a hammer, an axe, a sword, or even a polearm. One thing I really love about the character/model is that GW has given Iron Hands players a Warhammer 40,000 setting character that fulfills the 3rd edition lore about the Chapter and its Terminators. Suboden Khan is a standout for me. While I was a little surprised by the grav-bike at first, it fit well with the Primaris technology advancements. I'm sure that Dark Angels fans are hoping that we'll see an update of Sammael on a brand spanking new grav-bike. And while power lances have been a thing for the White Scars since 3rd edition, I've always preferred swords (scimitar/sabre) for the White Scars in representing the Mongol theme. I don't hate the power lance, but it always seemed to me that a two-handed slashing weapon (which that power lance clearly is) would be difficult to wield while mounted. A proper lance (i.e., a thrusting/piercing weapon) would be more easily used, but that would be more in keeping with a force themed on the Franks. At this point, I'm betting that a sword-like weapon was ruled out to distinguish this model from an upcoming (hopefully) update of Sammael. My issue with the form of the power "lance" is where my earlier comments about complex themes comes in, I suppose. I've never really been a fan of Chapters having unique vehicles, though I can get behind unique modifications/variants. I hope that grav-bikes become more widespread across the Adeptus Astartes. For those lamenting that other Chapters weren't included in this release, I think this batch was spot-on for representing the non-Big Five "First Founding" Chapters. The other "First Founding" Chapters already have plenty of their own models already. While it would be great for them to get more, I suppose, it's even better for GW to share the love with other Chapters. It would be great for some other Chapters to get some attention, too, but I think it's right that they're lower on the prioritization.

For those who want to understand the situation in question, please follow the link in the first post. For those who are interested in the issue of intellectual property (IP), I've included a link to the UK's IP page (since GW is headquartered in the UK) below. https://www.gov.uk/intellectual-property-an-overview That page has links relevant to information about points that have been brought up in the discussion. While WH40K cosplay is relevant to the hobby (hobby adjacent?) and suitable for discussion and content sharing here at the B&C, this legal matter is not. Those who wish to pursue discussion of the matter further (and who may wish to discuss the impacts and implications of this and similar legal action on that hobby) are invited to take it to communities dedicated to cosplay and legal issues, especially those pertaining to IP.

It's once again time to take discussion to topics dedicated to each Warhammer 40,000 setting (yes, that includes the Horus Heresy) to separate topics.

You should have named him Snake Eyes.