Lord Lorne Walkier

What good is predicting something that has been mentioned before?

Predictions: 1) Loken lives. "I was there..." is survivor talk, so says Keeler. I was doubting this a bit until he passed Mourn-it-all, on to LE2. 2) LE2 dies because he had the misfortune to wield Mourn-it-all against Horus. I think the sword will reveal its demonic nature. 3) The loss is really Abaddon's fault. His presence at the final fight is not apart of Horus's plan. He is rouge an it will be on him when it all goes south.

Ahh we are talking about the guy who..

I'm not sure Loken is fully aware of how he is lighting the force sword. It is clear he can, when he needs/ wants too. It is not clear, to me, he is doing it consciously. We are not let into his mind during, we only see the results. He has three swords, and seems to use them all, even though he only has two hands. He dose not seem to exert himself more on Rubio's force sword then he dose using Mourn-it-all, or the chain-sword. He is clearly unaware if he is using other powers like I think, Teleport, Invisibility, Gate. Any speculation on how these can both be so from me will only be poo pooed. Guess I'm a glutton... I don't think his mental block that was keeping him 'latent' is all the way down. He has not quite admitted to him self he is a psyker. I don't think he wants it to be true any more then most here want. Maybe he is telling himself that he is only a low level, just barely able to use the sword, kind of psyker. As long as the traitors keep dying he can sort it all out later. He will probably die before the truth is known anyway, right? He is just started to crawl. Maybe the awarness you seek comes after he gets off his knees. You attempt to use the rest of Warhammer's psykers to gage what is happing to Loken. How many of what you have seen are 'Latent' ? I cant think of any. If im missing some, they cant be common. We don't even know why he was 'latent'. I am very interested in the theoretical. I have been trying to predict what fate has for Loken ever since he seemed to die on Istavaan III. I get to discuss what I feel is relevant. I go out of my way to point to the words in the books to back my augments. I did not make up the Loken was teleporting around the city. I just tried to point out who I felt was responsible. It is not my headcannon that there was a door in the library that should not have been there. That lead to a ship in orbit. I just speculated it was Loken's doing. My speculation is headcannon though, for now. I'm ok with that. I also disagree that Abnett is explicit. You don't know what his care of the tabletop is. Abnett said in an interview that his style of writing is to pick the ending, then work hard to get the story there. In the end Loken will be a force sword wielding, guy who turned down the chance to become a Grey Knight Grandmaster. How explicit was he in Horus rising about this eventuality? By his own words he knew the ending. I would say he did put many hints about what would happen in the book but they were all very subtle. I think he went out of his way to give the impression Loken was anything but special, not true. I have said many times that the choice to arm Garviel with a Bolter and a Chain-sword was meant to give the impression that Loken was just like every other Astartes. What other 'Hero' has no cool war gear? Not even a Grenade.. His gear was not even artifice. His Company was not even Special, the 10th. A regular battle Company. Would make Robute happy. It was in Saturnine that Loken first used the Force sword. Dan wrote that, Was it explicit how that happened? Why was it so unclear as to what is happening to Loken, and others, in The end and the death? Dan is still holding his cards close to his chest. Yes, a lot of time.... To be clear though, I feel my thoughts are 'textually informed'. I try to read between the lines. That is why I felt Loken was not dead at the end of Galaxy in Flames. For many years I spent arguing here on various forums, that he would return. That was all headcannon right? To give a reason why he would return, I looked for what he could do once he returned. To join the Grey Knights was my answer. Galaxy in flames was released October 2006. Legion of one dropped April 2011. That's 4+ years of hearing that my headcannon was wrong, and that's just to have him alive. Buried Dagger, February 2019. 8 more years to see him even touch a force weapon. ... after he rejected the offer to join the Grey Knights.... Saturnine, March 2020. First explicit use of a force power, kinda. By my math that's 13+ years of having to listen to people tell me I'm wrong, crazy, fan boying, ect. The whole time , over an over, I would point to the text, on why I was seeing what I saw. Most people it seems, feel that Loken would never see the light of day after he got bombed into oblivion on Istavaan III. He was not a Psyker or anything other then a tragic foot note in the Heresy. I'm sure they felt their ideas were very much 'textually informed'. They were right on that. The text mislead them. I think it was intentional, and well done. The same is happening in the End and the Death.

No, i don't think it undercuts my argument, though you do make a fair point. He dose use Rubio's sword, 'intentionally'. The use dose not seem to strain him in any way. This dose not seem to be his limit. We don't know exactly the comparison of what it might take to power a force weapon verses using a more traditional power like teleport or gate with out going to the table top. Even if he were say just a level 1 psyker, he would have at least one other power to use in addition to the ability to use a force weapon. We also know he was given the chance to become a Grey Knight Grandmaster, so I think he would have the potential to be much higher then level 1. Some will say that Loken's psyker talent was not why Malcador chose him. I know this because they said the same thing before they would even agree he was a Psyker, even if he had just turned down an offer to found a Chapter where every one of the brothers was. So the fact he has shown some potential will join the rest, under the rug. Loken would be like all of the lowest level grunt Grey Knights... only able to join in spells to help those stronger then him shine. His awareness of the warp and his connection to it is unknown. We never get to see inside his head when he consciously uses the warp. He was in denial for most of his life, going so far as to explicitly think he was no psyker (Grey Angel). It took Tormageddon almost crushing his head for him to... see the light. He has not had any training that I am aware of. He dose not seem to be concerned about this. He is focused on killing traitors, full stop. His coming out party also coincides with a warp storm, so who knows how that is effecting him. I think he is still in the process of leaving denial. One foot still wet. I think he is much like many here. Grudgingly willing to accept he is a psyker, yet unwilling to follow it to where that might go. When weird things around him happen, its easy to just chalk it up to the end of the world, warp shenanigans, poor writing. For me, I look to what they all have in common. Loken, who is a psyker. I think, If one was to use teleport unknowingly/without control, how would it feel. You would be one place then poof, another. If you used invisibility unknowingly.... When you encountered people they would be like :cuss:. Would you even know why they were surprised to see you, or even care, if all you wanted to do was kill them? Naw, just kill them all and let the Emperor sort them out right? And Gate unknowingly... Where did that door come from? Where dose it lead? Wow, I know this place.. Strange why the door accepts my biometrics, they must have been to lazy to change the locks.. You might even tell the other people with you to not let anyone come through after you, not realizing that as soon as you mind moves on the portal would begone. I think I'm on topic as long as we keep talking about stuff that happens in the book, or close there of. It had been close to a month before my comment about gate so its not like I was interrupting a flame hot thread. Would be more apt criticism if you said I was necro-ing the thread. Cant hijack an empty plane. Your list... 'bhab command, keelers refugees, zephon being outside the sanctum, many of the scattered view points, etc...' is the first time any have given examples of others spatial weirdness. None like loken but some like Keeler seem close. She and her group were not appearing far away from where they were just before but she did seem to be out of phase with realty. Not moving as fast or far as she thought they would. Loken even comes looking for her and can't quite seem to catch up with her..... hmm Other then we the reader, I don't think Zephon, or any with him, were surprised he was there. Don't see it as relevant. Bhab... not seeing the conection. Some people might apear to be out of place. Loken is the only one shown being one place, then elseware.

His powering of a force sword? Use of a force weapon is a "power", on the table top at least.

The text dose not say who or how the door got there. Only that it was not there before and should not be there now. Loken found the door. It was keyed to his Biometrics. It led to a place he knows well. The gate power dose not say what kind of portal the psyker creates only that you can walk through it to get to else ware. This seems to fit every description I can find of the gate power. Weather it is loken or the "warp" ... Why not both? The Temporal stoppage is definitely happing to everyone. The 'random dislocation-like effects,' is only affecting Loken. It is understandable to think they are one and the same but i challenge you to find one other person who finds themselves elseware. Even people talking about people, other then Loken, moving around weirdly.

I have been talking to some friends about my theories regarding Loken and the use of Psychic powers. I would like to add one to the list of Invisibility and Teleport. I think he used Gate, to get to the Vengeful Spirt. The power i remember is kinda short range but yeh. seems like a gate to me.

The 40k information is not just old and hard to get. It is also wrong intentionally. XX Legion, =][=Ordo Reductoris... Propaganda on steroids. "Hope is the first step on the road to Disappointment" Hope has a really bad press agent in 40k.. I hope , hopes death is also just a well told Lie. My Inquisitor is a labeled a 'radical' because he attempts to use Hope as a weapon. I would say things would be different but worse, less fun. Playing a game for a long time, thinking there was a chance it might all work out only in the end to see it was all for not would suck.

I love that there is no penalty for not taking 3 Questoris. I think 2/8+ will prove if nothing else, intimidating. Is the Paly a freeblade? I can't see clearly a non freeblade having that ability.... Maybe your Household has a ancient, one knight only, teleport pad? Love the agent soup. Do the Voids have a Knight, Men-at arms feel? How dose the Sniper fit into the story? Love that there is no Special characters. 20 point tax... 1 % Odd that you listed the Dogs.... errr Armigers first, possible Code Chivalric violation. Not sure why exactly but the list was a bit difficult to absorb. Nice to see the wargear options you chose. Again, nice that there is no 3 Questoris rule. so We call this a 1/2/3 ? Special Char... yuk. So yet another Agent (=][=) soup. I too have a soup force. Do you consider yourself to be a Ordo Questoris? 5 point tax. Very nice. .25% I'm going 3/3 + =][= soup. HOUSE Quill-Thorn. Army Faction: Imperium Faction: Imperial Knights Paladin w/UNYIELDING PARAGON (430pts) Ironstorm, Reaper, heavy stubber. Warlord, Preceptor (375pts) Stormspear, Thunderstrike, Multi-laser. Warden (420pts) Icarus Autocannons, Reaper. Freeblade. Helverin (145pts) Meltagun. Warglaive (140pts) Meltagun. Warglaive (140pts) heavy stubber. Inquisitor (55pts) Callidus Assassin (115pts) Arbities Exaction (75pts) Imperial Navy Breachers (105pts) 1650pts of Questoris 350pts of =][= Total - 2000 points 0% tax.

I plan on souping in a squad or two of Imperial agents. I will have a 10 man Arbites and 10 man Navel Breachers. I have =][= 's and a Callidus. Not sure how many points i want to spend but the mix might catch some people off guard.

Time has stopped for everyone. There are tons of examples to prove this. Not everyone has noticed it to the same degree though. As for Distance being malleable, I'm not so sure. Maybe Keeler's group is on a long march but they are not poofing from one place to the next. They are in a warp storm so we can make any kind of reality we want but only Loken is teleporting that we know of. Maybe you have some examples I've overlooked? Loken says to Ahlborn.. The next scene says he is with Ahlborn for 20 mins then he steps off the street they are on into a yard. Ahlborn and the crowd they were with are simple gone. Why did Ahlborn get left behind? If one were to teleport, that is how it might feel. Later Loken tells the same to Sinderman but in more detail. He thinks distances are blurring. For him they might be. No one else has made this observation that I can tell. Lokens belief that this is happing might be what is triggering his movements, though they came after...

The sheer dominance is on display, for sure, with only one exception. This scene with the Invisible ambush. They are the only thing that slows them down. The ones who killed Sejanus. I am reaching, for straws. I did the same thing when I said Loken would live past Istavaan III. I was way out on a Limb there. Did not break. I also said Loken would turn out to be a Psyker. Even less agreed with that then just being alive. What did you think about those questions? Where you on the right side? The suggestions you say are not there, are hidden, subtle. If you are so sure they are not there, you will miss them. I saw them, only after re reading the book looking for a clue as to why or how Loken might still be alive after Istvaan III. If you get the feeling that Loken was 'just a guy', you aren't so much wrong as tricked. Also plenty said no to treachery, he just lived where most others died. I could point you to the hints, chapter and verse, but I've found it kinda pointless if there is no desire to even look, or find what might be there. 1) ' why he didn't use his abilities from the beginning or throughout the series,' This I have the answer for. He is a 'latent' psyker. Latent- ' (of a quality or state) existing but not yet developed or manifest; hidden or concealed.' I don't think he is hiding it but it is concealed. I think it is all about the Council of Nikaea. I think Horus chose to suppress the psykers in his legion. I guess by hypnotherapy. Until Satunine, Loken thought he was no psyker. The thing with Latents is they need some kind of Trauma to get over the block. For Loken, it was a seriers of traumas. 1st was Jubal. When he was fighting him he got hit hard and blacked out for a split second. Right after he was about to slip over the edge of a bottomless pit and only a 'fury' saved him. The next one I've identified is when he squared off with Abaddon, on Istvaan III. Right after Lil Horus killed Torgaddon, Loken rushed Abaddon and had a moment of hate filled rage that surprised even him. Then he was buried and left for dead, marooned. He went crazy and lost himself. Cerberus was the result. Rubio felt the power of this mind and was overwhelmed by its power (Legion of one). The last break was when he was about to die to the Deamon Tormegeddon in Satunine. He had Rubio's force sword in his hand and in a last ditch effort used the power within to kill the thing. Anger was also apart of this. It is the common thread in his breaks. You seem willing to concede that in the right circumstances Loken can use the force sword. You say that you are still unconvinced though. In 8th- 9th edition 40k, the use of a force weapon is a force power, just like smite. Its a power that all psykers can use. Is this not the 'definitive point of reference' you need? While I was having all this swirl around in my head I thought of something even more out there. In the End and the Death, Loken was appearing in places far away from where he was moments before, unexpectedly. When I read it I was thinking that the warp was acting up. But I got to thinking and Loken was the only one who this was happening too as far as I can tell. Was Loken Teleporting? I think so. If so then that's Invisibility, and Teleport. Granted the Teleport was uncontrolled but if he could get a handle on it. Very scary.

I thought I might actualy have a chance to convince you on this. I went back to some old posts digging for something i had quoted and found out that we have been arguing about whether Loken is a psyker since at least 2011. Blood Angel Scout said: I think you just don't want this to be true so I have 0% chance of changing your mind. I re read the part of Horus Rising when Loken encountered the 'Invisibles', and I think I found something. Loken is on the other side of the ambush but the same thing happens. One side is moving through the battle space, 'combat-ready and wary/ Their optics and sensoria are particularly large and sensitive' Loken's 10th co, Locasta Tactical squad are astartes but they are not, 'purpose-specific clade designed for line infiltration, and group-unified by stealth-adaptive coding', The 10th is just a Battle Company. The invisibles needed 'Wonderful form of field tech' to do what Loken was able to do with just Kneeling? Loken is an Invisible.

30 would be +5 no?