Paradigm

Short answer is that daemons are weird. Long answer: no they aren’t infinite. There are always as many as there are right now, tomorrow there will always have been as many as there will be then, and yesterday there was always as many as there is. Time has no meaning in the warp, you just have to know when you are going to get where you want to be. To sum it up, the number changes, but when it does it changes both forwards and backwards in time. So there is always the same amount as there ever was and ever will be, even if the objective number changes. Daemons are pieces of the chaos gods, in the same way your arm is a part of you. But chaos gods gain power and tend to “grow arms” so to speak as they do. Because it’s chaos, their arms just happen to be sentient semi-autonomous appendages with their own goals and desires. Sometimes they come into conflict with the greater body and/or each other. There are many unaligned entities in the warp, that could more or less behave the same way chaos gods behave, and it seems daemons seem to think they can also become truly autonomous and behave just as the chaos gods do. So there are many different daemons in the warp, and they always have had exactly the number they will ever have. Which isn’t infinite, because even though time has no meaning they’re always whenever they are as well. And since the warp reflects reality’s emotional state, as long as no one emotion dominates reality, the influence and power of any one god will be limited by the existence of the others. Edit: I’m not saying they aren’t infinite, because effectively they are, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t finite as well. Leave it to the warp to have something defy logic. Luckily, if we don’t go gazing into the empyrean, it (probably) won’t gaze back.

Because nobody wants to read a bunch of Reddit threads. It isn’t a source. You can feel free to quote a source yourself anytime you want. Also most of the threads are speculation based on poorly interpreted quotes. Those interpretations are not canon, in most cases they’ve taken what they’ve read and speculated greatly. For example the paraphrased line “both races fought chaos”, does not imply that they were ever allies in said fight. But that’s exactly where the OP’s interpretation goes. All factions fight all factions in 40k— the Imperium and Tyranids aren’t allies even though they both fight chaos. It’s also a discussion in universe, so not canon. Spoken words in all fluff are limited. As in characters speaking in universe isn’t canon without supporting evidence. It’s part of the, “everything is canon, nothing is canon,” GW policy with their fluff. The character’s belief, or hyperbolic statements don’t count on their own. Like when a couple Word Bearers during the heresy implied the Ultramarines grew in size so quickly because they absorbed the 2nd and 11th legions. The only canon part of that is that Word Bearers have sour grapes. The statement that the cages existed long before life existed on earth for example is obviously one of, hyperbolic, the speaker didn’t realize just how long life has been here, or most likely the Author of the story didn’t check the statement against established fluff. All other evidence and fluff contradicts it, so it isn’t a retcon, it’s just a discussion. In other words it’s canon that this was said, it may or may not be the truth of what occurred in-universe.

If you wanted to beat chaos now, it would take the combined might of the major powers, too. Just like it did during the WiH. I don’t really see how a Necron-Eldar alliance is an argument that daemons were ever more powerful. Besides, chaos is arguably winning so handily only because everyone is too busy squabbling with each other now anyway. I think it makes good sense that the Necrons know more, because there are Necrons that were alive now and fought in the WiH, but there aren’t any living Eldar from that time.

Long Post, TLDR at bottom Xenith has pointed out something very important, but the scope of what it means isn’t really being recognized or responded to. Time effectively has no meaning in the Warp. You can visit yourself there if you know when and where you are at any point in space or time. Time is a dimension that can be travelled in the same way space can be. This means several specifically important things, and it also means a bunch of things that aren’t specific to the topic, but important for context. 1 - In the warp you can not only travel to the WiH but you can do things now, that take place then. So in the warp the echos of what has already happened and what will happen all intersect. It’s a feedback loop. So more or less within the empyrean the WiH never ended, but it also hasn’t yet happened and is also already over, depending on when you are. 2 - Like Xenith said, once a chaos god is born, it always was. It’s born at a specific point in our understanding of time and then spreads via the warp in all temporal directions. So Slaanesh was born at X time, therefore Slaanesh has always existed. The same is true if anything is ever truly destroyed in the warp. It ceases to have ever existed because it’s an ever present now. 3 - Daemons don’t really fight over turf and influence in the warp, it’s all a game to them, they're immortal and they’re all always as strong as they ever were in the warp. It’s why they care about reality, it’s the only thing that really “matters” to them, if you could even say that anything matters to them. It’s the only way they can gain true power in any meaningful sense. 4 - Because of these things, anything introduced at a later point in the lore, in-universe retcons itself. So everything is true that has ever been true. While in-universe a mortal born before X might remember a time when X didn’t exist, its because mortals are both a real and empyrean presence, and have a permanent anchor in both sides. An in universe mortal born “after” X existed could know logically that at one point X didn’t exist but would never remember a time when they didn’t. Even the one who remembered a time when X didn’t exist, wouldn’t necessarily remember things as they actually were anymore. 5 - the warp is a place where something can both be X and not be X at the same time. This is why it drives mortals to madness. The more they learn about the warp, the more they realize how little, they are or, they understand. It’s a catastrophic epistemic crisis. When you stare into the void long enough in 40k the void not only stares back, but is malevolently sentient and can enter reality, ephemerally via your attention and physically by altering your brain and body. Tweak a brain even a little and it can no longer function in a sane way. 6 - Bel’Lakor might not have been born yet. At least in the way we think of birth. The gods all live in their own time. Temporally they’re only in synch with themselves and not each other or anything else. Maybe not even their own daemons. Sure he was an ancient warlord. But ancient to reality or ancient to himself? The mistake of his creation, could have happened at the end of reality relative to the 40k setting instead of near the beginning. Ancient in the sense of the warp, just means a long way from now. It doesn’t mean it’s a long way in any *specific* direction, and this isn’t even including time on different vectors than the ones the chaos gods exist on or the one reality exists on. It could be a long way in along many different planes of time within the warp. It could even be at different points along the individual Chaos Gods own temporal vectors. As for Vashtorr existing before the gods goes. I’d also need to see the source on that. Sure he existed as long as the warp is. Because once born in the warp you always existed, but I’d be surprised if they make the claim that he was born so long ago. If they do, it’s both tautological conceptually, and pointless to the fluff in a meaningful way. Because the gods have been born, and therefore always were. In universe the only ones that really understand the warp’s temporal properties on any level, are the Eldar, the Emperor, quite a few KSons sorcerers, some psychers, and some navigators. There’s a smattering of others that may get it on some level as well, but the general pop hasn’t got a clue, and this includes Astartes and even Custodes. TLDR- So at the end of the day. No, daemons didn’t used to be stronger, because if they were, they’d invade now within the warp and replace the gods we know currently in the lore. Because reality is the only way for warp entities to grow in a meaningful way, there isn’t much of an argument that if there are stronger entities out there, they wouldn’t obliterate their weaker rivals to gain access to their followers and thus realspace.

That one is by far the tallest of the bunch. It’s pretty accurate to say they’re about a head shorter than modern sculpts in general. That said they are mostly bulky enough that with some creative basing, you won’t really notice the height issue while gaming. They also still make great conversion fodder, and Kranon and the Mace Chosen and the Lightning Claw Chosen above, can easily double as generic HQ models, when based appropriately.

I could’ve sworn the Iron Warriors were Tzeench aligned in 2nd? I’ve got the old books laying around somewhere… Assuming we are thinking the same book, the one with the concept art that has the bits they recommend using to convert space marines to match their legion? That said, modern IW have a much more “Nurgle Lite” feel, and I could be totally misremembering it. I had a theory that each legion that isn’t dedicated to a cult is anathema instead to a cult. (Excepting Word Bearers of course.) In other words. Each legion is either dedicated directly to a singular god, or is working to support all but one indirectly. So for Night Lords the have aspects of Khorne, Tzeench, and Slaanesh. Bloodlust, Paranoia, Excess. Nurgle doesn’t offer much to them. The Iron Warriors having Nurgle, Tzeench, Khorne, but not really Slaanesh. They are tough as hell, plan obsessively, and “Hate like Khorne” in a fist fight, they have little need of pride and frippery. Alpha Legion, fits with Tzeentchian schemes, Nurgle’s inevitability, and Slaaneshi Pride, but they aren’t into losing their heads to bloodlust. We are still waiting on the anti-Tzeentchians. And I kind of think Sons of Horus could’ve fit this. Albeit not the Black Legion that largely has replaced them. It’s a flawed theory. I had a thought today about characters while I was working on my warband update. How cool would it be if we got two characters, single box representing the duality of the Night Lords? One could be a champion with little ostentation carrying a relic boltgun of some kind, and a chain glaive, think a very choice chosen elevated to a Chaos Lord. The other could be a jump-packed warp-touched monstrosity with twin lightning claws and daemonic mojo. Double points if they make the tactical rocks on the base line up, and pose appropriately, so that if they face each other it could look like they are fighting each other, too.

@ Fulkes that would be awesome.

Maybe. I really don’t see that being a good direction for someone who truly hates the imperium. I think it is possible the Charcharodons have some Night Lord and whatever else Geneseed mixed in there. I don’t think it’s “chimeric” in nature, it’s just that some marines may have different geneseed than the next, but I find it a huge stretch that Sevatar is destined to lead the Charcharadons after Arkhas Fal. I was actually about to delete the previous post, I just don’t think arguing is really worth it, and I have no Ill will towards anyone over a fluff interpretation. Frankly, I find the idea that they have mixed geneseed kind of dumb, there is no reason for it from a storytelling standpoint. The pre-corax XIXth in 30k behave just like the Charcharodons do in 40k. They even have Red Brethren/Deliverers that wear the same colors. That said, it is certainly possible based on the fluff from Red Tithe, Outer Dark and HH:Book 6. If Sevatar abandons the 8th to fight for the Imperium it basically nukes his characterization. I don’t see the point of building his character up as it was only to throw it away. The Forgotten One is Corax. He exiled them. They “Forgot” him. But this is definitely derailing the thread. I think I want to double down on the best thing to do is to just create a new character for the Night Lords when the time comes. Would love to have a chainglaive jump pack dude, with Volkite weaponry, bonus for an optional pack, with a story that the Heresy is only century or so ago to him.

Look, if you are going to claim to have super secret squirrel information that nobody else has, maybe don’t get so defensive when people doubt it. Especially when it runs entirely counter to established fluff. This isn’t meant to be a personal attack, we are talking about plastic soldiers in an ever changing/growing universe. Care to share which author told you this information, if you can, especially since ADB and Alan Bligh fleshed out Sevatar’s arc years ago and he is planning on finishing it. Hopefully, he pops back up after the siege of Terra series. He spoke about this during his AMA on Reddit. Also, I provided you with the books you can find the very clear info about the Space Sharks history in. You could do me the same favor if you have real evidence of the 8th having contributed in any meaningful way to the space sharks or that Sevatar is their first chapter master. If I recall correctly the visions you are referencing, that Curze had of grey clad troops, is a reference to Fel Zharost AKA Grand Master Khyron leading the Grey Knights as one of their founders. It spawned a ton of theory about Sevatar being a grey knight, though now we know that it was Zharost. Again I’m not interested in a back and forth, but I do really want to review the fluff you are referencing. If there has been a major retcon I’d like to read about it. If ADB’s plans are derailed that sucks, as the stuff him and Alan Bligh worked out has been truly brilliant and I was looking forward to the storyline. A relevant quote from the AMA: ADB - From his Reddit AMA "I think it'd be a reach if he [sevatar] made it to M41, and if he did, he's certainly not important. Legion First Captains are serious business, and I know some of them are still kicking at that point, but I'll be 100% honest, no, Sevatar doesn't survive into the Dark Millennium. He has an arc. I worked it out with Alan Bligh a while back. He has a future, and I'm pretty sure we'll see it in some form within a few years. But his role in the Horus Heresy is pretty much just his prologue. His real story is in the years after the Horus Heresy. And it's probably not a spoiler to say he's never going to be a great hero on either side of the Traitor/Loyalist divide, with his name echoing gloriously into eternity. Sevatar is seeking righteousness, in a way. He has a line at some point (I think it's to Altani or the Sin-Eater) where he says "I'm not on anyone's side." And that sums him up, not because he's some badass space loner, but because the structures within which he's matured and fought for have, by and large, failed. Not failed him. Just failed. At least from his perspective. And his arc is a response to that. Can't really be too much more specific, sorry! Hope that helps a little!" -ADB Anyway please post your references if you want people to consider your opinion. Either way this is really the last post on it from me, unless you show me something that retcons the established fluff. Back to the topic: Also, sadly based on the notes from ADB I don’t think we will see a 40k version of Sevatar.

Look I’m not about to turn this into a huge back and forth. So I’ll say one more post on it and be done. It’s been done to death. But both Robbie, and Aaron have posts in these forums, archived, available and contradicting your assessment. Robbie when talking about his Charcharadons book, flat out agrees with several posters including myself when we talk about how he fixed the weird fanon chimeric geneseed, Night Lord thing. It’s archived on this forum. He also confirms Corax is the forgotten one. Aaron has made it incredibly clear that Sevatar absolutely hates the Emperor and that he had further plans for him. He isn’t going to go track down Arkhas Fal, who canonically leads the Nomad Predation fleet that became the Space Sharks, to usurp him, and the Space Sharks wouldn’t have accepted a random cousin as a leader anyway especially one who hates the emperor they were still fighting for. If ADB wants to do this I’d be surprised as it isn’t his style at all. But if anyone could pull it off it’s probably ADB. It makes even less sense that Sevatar would lead the Space Sharks when you realize it would have been hundreds or thousands of years after the heresy when the Space Sharks and Ashen Claws would have run out of recruits and had to trade. And it’s also suggested they used to fight quite a bit since the sharks took the actual Ashen Claws weapons as war booty. Point being, there wouldn’t have been any possibility of Night Lords geneseed until years and years later. It’s also important to note, the Ashen Claws were the size of a small legion, they didn’t need to use Night Lord geneseed, the fluff describes them as having thousands of warriors when they were sent on their Nomad Predation fleet that came under the Praetor (and former XIXth legion Headhunter/Seeker) Nerat Kirine’s control, deployed years after Arkhas Fal left with his much smaller fleet. All this is rumored/alluded to, in the Badab War books, stated pretty clearly in Horus Hersey Book3, and Book 6 and confirmed fully in the Robbie McNiven series. All legions ended up with some defectors no legions decided to put a defector from another legion in charge of them. The XIXth lived on with the Space Sharks and Ashen Claws, but they had very different goals, and would have been enemies during the Heresy if they ever crossed paths. Which book is the grey warriors vision in? I’d like to read it so I get why you believe they are alluding to space sharks.Unpainted Ceramite is grey too, and lots of warbands, chapters, blackshields use it. So in summary we know and have canon written about who and where the space sharks come from, who the forgotten one is (it’s been explicitly stated to be Corax by Robbie who invented the concept), who lead the space sharks first. Where the term Pale Nomad comes from, where the space shark markings come from, and where they acquired the relic weapons Hunger and Slake, (aka the actual Ashen Claws the Blackshields are named for.) We even know why the like axes so much. To summarize the Ashen Claws, we have clear canon documentation that they left after Gate 42 with thousands of Terran Raven Guard and conquered a sizable chunk of the Ghoul Stars from Xenos. Raiding the Nostamo Sector, and destroying pillaging much of the Night Lords supplies, some Night Lords may have defected, their geneseed may or may not have been used. We don’t know this for certain either way. We do know that after the Ashen Claws stopped feuding they traded recruits on occasion and some of them could have the odd Night Lord geneseed. (Keep in mind just having geneseed from different legions doesn’t make them chimaeric. You’d need to merge geneseed for this to be the case) I don’t know which author you spoke to, but you are mistaken if you think the space sharks are a mixed group of loyalist Night Lords and Raven Guard who were originally lead by Sevatar. That is 100% Fanon.

I think this is an interesting back and forth. A lot of folks seem to think Night Lords don’t use chaos. However the fluff really doesn’t support this at all. They hate chaos and daemons like they hate everything how they even hate each other and themselves individually. In universe, Night Lords have used daemons as a tool and been corrupted for it more often then not. We know the majority at the time of the heresy disdain the Daemonic, we also know that since then there have been many Daemon Princes ascend, plenty of possessed and marked marines, and it’s in every single Night Lords story so far. For every main character that wants to stay pure, there are five more who don’t really care. Lord of Night has a Heresy Era captain begrudgingly use chaos as a tool then reject it. And then we see the largest Night Lords warband descend on a planet just to find him. All the descriptions of said warband show them to be heavily corrupted. This is the largest warband the night lords have, with a Daemon Prince leading them. Then you have the ADB series, it’s got a warband of marines where all of them save a couple is corrupted in some way. The main character has uncontrollable visions, the initial chaos lord is possessed, all the others have some kind of chaos taint or perversion, except seemingly Xarl and maybe Mercution. They even have discussions about how they need to recruit but don’t know if their geneseed is functional after being so tainted. Then you have all these other BL stories. They all have corrupted marines in them. One has a monstrous Raptor, and a relatively “pure” one. The others just treat them like particularly sadistic standard CSM. We’re they particularly anti daemon, it’s not mentioned so we can assume they aren’t. Then you have the codex fluff, many of those stories reference the Painted Count or Daemonic rituals used to corrupt planets, about as many as any other chaos Legion has by percentage, reference daemons or chaos being used. In summary, the Night Lords aren’t pure, and in general are just fine with chaos. By the time of the 40k setting any disdain for the warp is an anachronistic aspect of individual marines or warbands, not indicative of the wider philosophy of the legion as a whole. There really is no wrong way to do Night Lords, they are extremely diverse due to their fracture and internal conflicts. Maybe not in the way the Black Legion or Word Bearers are, but they absolutely have the entire breadth of the chaos range in their arsenal, and much more that doesn’t have rules or models. There are probably even Nurgled out Plague Night Lords somewhere, there are also multiple warbands that look very very similar to Night Lords with an occult twist, like the Dark Brotherhood (Tzeentch) and Night Killers(Slaanesh) albeit, and importantly, not canonically dedicated. They also were fully dedicated to Khorne in the fluff at one point, early in their development.

I’m totally good with Decimus or Sevatar. Sevatar wasn’t the first chapter master of the space sharks, they also do not have mixed geneseed. The first chapter master of the Charcharodons was Shade Lord Arkhas Fal, legion master of the 19th legion that Corax had beef with. There is fanon (that won’t seem to go away) out there that the space sharks were mixed geneseed, but that is purely fanon, with no actual fluff that backs it, and lots of fluff that says they are pre-corax Raven Guard. The only way they might have some mixed geneseed, is if the much larger Ashen Claws warband used the captured Night Lord geneseed during the purging of the Nostramo Sector, back when they established their pocket empire in the ghoul stars. They do trade recruits with the space sharks on occasion as they both descended from nomad predation fleets of Terran 19th legionaries. But there was a ton of ashen claws and relatively few night lord defenders that could have defected or had their geneseed stolen. Decimus or a new character with a relic chain glaive and Volkite Serpenta or Charger in a pose similar to Sevatar would be rad. Spiritual embodiment/successor as “the” NL character 10k years later. Double cool if there is an optional jump pack similar to how they handled Ahriman’s disk for ksons. It might be best if they use a new character entirely really. Few if any Night Lord book protagonists really embody the legion, they are always a little delusional about what the Night Lords were and are. Sevatar would probably be disgusted with the state of the legion. Decimus, while really cool has only a little more fluff than a new character would and I’d like to hear ADB’s take on him more than the studio’s in general.

@Random: yeah it is kind of ironic. I also really like them in the 30k setting. @Gorgoff: The most common I see here are probably either Iron Warriors, or maybe Thousand Sons, but it wouldn’t be by a wide margin. Lots of IH, RG, NL, Salamanders, and Blood Angels too. I used to own a store north of Seattle and saw a gazillion armies come through, but I’m sure that I just plain missed some, and also didn’t run across some as well, by dumb luck. As traitors from loyalist legions go, I didn’t mean I was trying to sort it out, but I do love the suggestions! You all have some great ideas! I just meant it’s a harder path to tread, and a lot of folks that head in their direction end up with Blackshields from my experience. I’d love to see traitor iron hands, traitor ultras, and traitor Imperial Fists. I think it could all look awesome on the tabletop. I always thought about forces that went rogue not because of love or hate for one leader or another, but because they had an obligation to brethren in another legion, and felt their honor and oath to their brothers in arms meant more than their oath to primarchs emperor or war master. If you fight alongside someone long enough you end up fighting for each other, your leadership “exists,” but your brothers are there.

I’ve seen a traitor white scars force. They used a lot of Sons of Horus bits and it came across a bit too Luna Wolves because of it. But it was well painted, and there are pictures of it floating around online I think. It’s about seven years or so old at this point. I think people instead go the Blackshields route when traitors from loyalist legions pop up on the tabletop. I’ve seen several Raven Guard traitor war bands ran as Blackshields, but those are really about it. The problem with traitors from the loyalist legions is that nobody knows what they look like, at least beyond a few color plates in the black books. Loyalists from traitor legions just look like their uncorrupted traitor brethren for the most part. But a traitor ultramarine or iron hand? It’s harder to do an army mostly from scratch yet so adjacent to canon and risk having it invalidated, especially when you have to both meticulously research the background, and use the creative process. It’s a challenging hobby as it is, and adding more challenge is a bit daunting. Where I’m at, the only legions I never see are Emperors Children, and Ultramarines. I’ve seen very few 13th legion armies even online, fewer than any other faction by a significant margin. I know they are out there, sure. But I think it seems rare to me due to the nature of 30k attracting people that aren’t as enamored with the 40k ultras forward vibes.

@Bjorn: That’s not a bad idea, but it’s really just an unfortunate splatter effect outcome. My camera is acting strange lately, and made the reds look a lot more prominent than they are in person, so the three similar sized dots really stand out. Might try a light box and see if it give a better photo. I don’t want to overdo the gore, but I might have to splatter more on with a different brush so it isn’t so uniform looking. Really want to do a little more with the base, thinking about some black or pink static grass, or maybe some primitive alien looking plants. Really want to lean into the scum-covered death world, suggestions are certainly welcome. @Kythnos: Thanks! I’m a big fan of the more simple schemes, I might paint a squad and see if I still enjoy the silver after getting the hang of it.