Drudge Dreadnought

They dropped them to 14pts for Chaos. Not sure if they did for others.

Seems crazy that plague marines can be 17 points and rubrics still 18.

Let's hope this is a precursor to much greater vehicle customization. I want my sonic predators. Sadly, there's still not going to be much point to using land raiders unless they also give assault ramps back.

It seems that Russes provide far more durability, as they have the same toughness and save, but for the price of a baneblade you get 48 wounds worth of russes vs the baneblade's 26. With the new grinding advance, 4 russes with battle cannons = 8d6 shots vs the baneblades 3d6 and d3 demolisher (of course, the baneblade is stronger.) Russes also get orders. However, the baneblade has the advantage of not getting locked in melee, and is easier to buff up with strats, auras and psychic powers (shouldn't be hard to keep Psychic Barrier and Nightshroud up at all times.) Throw in a Salamander Command vehicle for +1 hit and Trohjan support vehicle for re-roll hits. Then if it's Vostroyan, another +1 to hit from strats and you can have it hitting on 2's with a re-roll, 2+ armor, and -1 to hit it.

Interested to hear people's thoughts on the baneblade now. I'm considering starting a guard list focused around one, mainly because I think they are cool. Think Baneblade + escort as the list theme. I want to run 1,500 and 2,000 versions of the list. So, with that in mind: 1) Are baneblades viable at all in this points range? 2) Are baneblades comparable to an equivalent pts amount of Russes? 3) What do you think of as the best way to use it? Artillery? Up close? Transport? 4) Similarly to above, which variant? 5) 2 sponsons or 4? 6) What regiment? Any other thoughts or experiences? EDIT: Added 6.

You mean Terminator Sorcerors? Those could take other weapons in Codex: CM as well and the Normal Sorcerors are bound to force weapons. Ah, you are correct. I couldn't remember the specifics. In Codex: CSM terminator sorcerers can replace their combi-bolter with another combi-weapon or terminator melee weapons, but are stuck with their force weapon. In Codex: DG, they can replace their bolter, or can also replace their force weapon with terminator melee weapons. Hopefully they'll FAQ Codex CSM to be like Codex DG on this one. It'd make Terminator sorcs worthwhile.

I noticed that Sorcerers can take weapons other than force weapons. This is different from Sorcerers in the Index and Codex: CSM and is very powerful (yay Sorc with a powerfist!). I wonder if it was intentional.

They are a good unit, but they do not get the Legion trait by current RAW (Forgeworld may FAQ it, but I wouldn't count on it, as the wording for DG is explicitly different from Codex CSM.) So you can go with a regular helbrute and it can move and shoot without penalty, or do a FW dread and you take a penalty.

I'd like to use one to expand my 1,500 to ~2,000. However, they just don't seem worth their cost compared to other big units. Other superheavies seem to be getting point reductions. I suspect that we'll see Knights get them too (In the Admech codex?) so hopefully that makes them more worthwhile.

I think possessed are actually really solid for a melee unit (however, the viability of pure melee units at all is unclear.) They are inferior to Berzerkers, but may have some uses in lists that can't use them. This is mostly due to them being 2 wound. They are extremely cheap for multi-wound power armored units. Their increase in speed, strength, and invul saves is nice too. At first I was deterred by their attacks, but once you consider their strength, ap-2 and durability, I think it evens out unless you're trying to mulch through hordes. Where possessed will really shine is with buffs and auras, especially if you bring in a herald. S6 AP-2 is no joke if you want to take down tough models. Mark them and give them any of the defensive psychic powers and you'll get a bigger gain than on many other units. However I think they'll shine most as Slaanesh using the Feel No Pain power to maximize their staying power. Put them in either an emperor's children or Alpha Legion list and you'll have a nasty unit that's very difficult to get rid of. Add a Herald for +1 strength and the extra fight psychic power and it can get really nasty. I've wondered about using a 20 man possessed unit with Alpha Legion and infiltrating it turn 1 with their stratagem, then buff it up with psychic powers. 3+, 5++, 5+++ and 2 wounds is a pain to deal with. Nothing is going to get rid of that efficiently. Overall, I think they are good for their points within the context of a daemon themed CSM force that makes proper use of buffs. However, as I said before about melee units, I'm not sure if this sort of list is viable overall. Oblits seem interesting now that they have 4 shots each. But I'm so sick of them from previous editions that I'm not in a hurry to try them. Combi-plasma terminators seem better, and are a similar points cost in the end (~250-270 for 5 man combiplas depending on wargear, 225 for 3 obilits.) Mutilators are garbage. And stupid. The whole idea of them was GW not understanding what the players wanted at the time. "Hey, people really use a lot of Oblits. They must really like them! Let's give them more!" Sorry, I'm still cynical about years of being forced to use oblits to be competitive.

The Champion will outperform the Lord in close combat vs characters. Otherwise the Lord wins. The question is really what's best as a second HQ. I'd argue the Champion is better than the Dark Apostle, especially if you already have a lord or prince giving re-roll of 1's. I also think that re-roll to wounds is better than to hit in many cases, as most of our army already hits on 3's, but wounds on 4's or higher. Lord+Champ is better than Lord+Apostle or Champ+Aposte. Or Daemon Prince instead of Lord, as they have the same auras.

The helbrute's big limitation is that it can't take double of any weapon. Only Weapon + Missile launcher for rifleman builds. I feel like the missile launcher is lackluster on such an expensive unit, and it's not a Twin missile launcher. I wish we could double up on twin heavy weapons, or even if we could just have a Reaper instead of the missile launcher. Twin HB + Reaper would be solid. The real purpose of the helbrute is to be able to fire some nice shots while advancing up the board and putting pressure on people. It's probably better cheap, with power scourge and Reaper, Twin heavy bolter, or plasma cannon if you've got a Reroll nearby.

I have been assuming that Noise Marines and berserkers are Troops for their legions. I'm trying to figure out what to use if I'm not playing EC or WE. Good points on the Daemons breaking Legion traits.

Now that we have the details on the new codex, I've started looking at actually building lists (mostly looking at 1500pts.) It has struck me that we have fundamental issues with our troops. To put it simply, non-cult legions appear to be screwed. We have some reasonably efficient melee troop choices, but melee in general seems to be lack luster. And it's clear that most of our best unit choices are our elites and heavies (specifically terminators, helbrutes, predators, and perhaps defilers with the points change.) Our psychic buffs are solid, but that means running a bunch of sorcerers, which have their own pros and cons. It's tempting to run a no troops list, but then you lose ObSec. Here's the breakdown as far as I can tell: 1) Vanilla CSM aren't what they used to be. They've lost their bolter+pistol+sword combo, and bolters have generally gotten weaker due to the change in AP rules (old ap5 had them solid vs hordes, now they are not.) They are cheaper, but that does not mean they are efficient. Ranged CSM seem pretty weak. 10 marines, 2x plasma, combi-plas, and powerfist will inflict some pain. But the rest of the squad is basically ablative wounds. 7 bolters is practically a rounding error as far as damage is concerned, and you're paying 91 points for them (20 cultists costs 80.) So it's not a bad unit, but I'm not sure it's worth its points, especially compared to cult units. 5 man Combi-plas+plasmagun squads are more viable. You lose out on a special weapon, but also save on 5 of those ablative wounds. But this squad has nothing on rubrics or noise marines of the same size. And again, it just doesn't seem that strong. Melee builds seem more promising. 142pts for 10 guys with ccw+pistol and a powerfist champ is pretty solid. Especially as Renegades with charge after advance. But again it pales against berserkers or even melee noise marines, and doesn't hold up that well against real assault troops (like sluggas.) Taking some special weapons is probably worth it, but loses you attacks. But the biggest problem is the questionable role of footslogger melee units. Are there lists that can make use of footslogger melee at all? Overall, using CSM seems like a big step down in power vs elites, fasts, and heavy. Is that step down worth it for ObSec? Do we have better options? 2) Cultists seem really, really good for what they do. But is what they do that useful? They're certainly a nice deepstrike shield, have an interesting stratagem, and are really cheap! But unless you are Iron Warriors, we really don't have enough fearless to hold them together in any significant amount. Melee cultists are dirt cheap and are a great candidate to stack up auras and psychic buffs on. There may even be some decent list designs based around a cultist horde with aura and psychic buffs. They'll certainly have value as a deepstrike shield, but they run into the same problem as Melee csm. Except maybe in specialized lists, the role of footslogging melee is questionable at best. And then there's the morale issues. IW, Black Legion, and Word Bearers may be able to hold them together. But then we're talking about having either an IW warlord or a dark apostle near them to really pull that off. Ranged cultists are basically irrelevant as far as dealing damage is concerned. The only reason to take this is if the squad's only purpose is to hide in your backline to block deep strikes and hold objectives. Which may not be a bad idea. You can grab 3 10 man cultist squads for 120 pts and easily fill up a Battalion detachment. They are there for the CP and scoring. There are useful units you can get for about 120pts though (cheap helbrutes, 5 man possessed), but overall it seems like cultists will be worth it for the CP, deepstrike shield, and Objective Holding. 3) Daemons got a lot cheaper, and they are not bad. But again, they suffer the problem of being mostly melee. And they don't have good saves to get them into melee, or the dirt cheap price tag of cultists. Horrors are a ranged option with some advantages over ranged cultists. They've only got a 1/3rd chance of casting Smite, but it does full damage, unlike thousand sons aspiring sorcs. And they get to Deny the witch. And they've got a 4+ invul. But they cost twice as much as cultists, and still aren't particularly large damage dealers. They can at least lend some decent support fire while objective camping, but they still seem fairly weak. 4) Tzaangors and Poxwalkers both seem to have some nice points, but they aren't in the codex anymore and are aligned so I'm not really counting them. 5) No troops at all is an option, but you give up ObSec and probably some CP. Given the cheap cost of 3 small cultist squads I don't see a huge point in doing this, but 120pts could potentially make or break a nasty elite build, so it could come up. Overall, my conclusion is that if you don't have cult units as troops, then the best option is MSU cultists. Am I missing anything with my analysis? I'd really like to use some regular CSM or something, but they just don't seem worth it.

Don't think so. They actually lost a lot of things in the codex that they had in the Index, like most of their dreadnought weapon options.