spartan249

Scouts didn't come with rifles standard??? My word... GC08's just about the only one who uses those. I haven't seen or heard of CC scouts being used anywhere that I play.

What are these laser cannon things? Sounds awfully close to Lascannon, and those are a bit different...

Stormtalons face an uphill battle against the top tier fliers. They do work, but they lose point for point against vendettas. They will be sufficient for most situations, I suppose, but low AV, expense, and lack of hull points plays directly against their effectiveness IMO.

Right now, beyond a few specifics, I think it's sufficient to say C:SM is suffering a bit in 6th edition. This is, of course, only considering the 5th edition codex. I've got my bets on the 6th edition codex bringing quite a few new things to the table (fixing ven dreads, Ground to Air weaponry, more substantial SM aircraft options, lowered devastator costs, hopefully good new units, etc), so I'm waiting for an update before I put any more nails into C:SM's coffin.

Well, you did get me to crack up a bit there... GKs are not an assault army, as much as the force weapons may suggest otherwise. We can perform in that capacity if pushed to do so or if it's wise to do so (I.e. the true tactical squad), but it's certainly not our forte. Of course dreads won't be working in isolation, neither will the OPFOR. Dreads act as an ephemeral diversion, even in numbers of 2~3, as their destructive capability is extremely limited for the expenditure in points. What they get in return becomes less and less worthy of the expenditure as cheaper, more efficient, and more destructive diversions are introduced into the metagame. Furthermore, the methods of dealing with dreads becomes cheaper and more effective with every passing codex/update. The only walkers in this game that are worth anything would be killa kans IMO, as they bring a lot of hull points, attacks, and ranged firepower for ridiculously low prices. Anything else is simply overpriced and comparatively underwhelming.

Is that dread av13 all round? Not if I remember correctly. Dropping them danger close for application of flamers creates situations where maneuvering to the rear becomes a simple proposition for people who didn't abandon all common sense and included mobile elements. The dread most certainly draws some heat when it drops, but it's not like it even takes that much to neutralize it as an intact battlefield threat. If 3 glances don't kill it, an immobilization will basically amount to an inconsequential presence. Frankly, someone actually wrought asunder by ironclads because of their delusions about a meta-game shift deserve their loss, as it's a kind of threat easily anticipated and prepared for. Fliers and FMCs are the new top tier diversionary unit, there is no comparison between the two. Any other application of dreads see more survivability and firepower provided by other units available.

Idaho, I tried desperately to make dreadnoughts work (especially via numbers) and I just could not. The dreads take up too many slots and don't do much for those slots. I performed a lot better when I left the dreads in the case and went heavy sternguard/shooty command squad instead. Just because something gets better doesn't mean it becomes good. Ironclads barely pass muster as a diversion, as they couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag. They're nothing a little maneuver warfare can't counter extremely quickly, as I have done everytime one showed up against me

YMMV. I have an unforgiving meta, and dreads are at the bottom of the pecking order in point efficiency, damage output, and survivability overall. My iron hands were somewhat viable in 5th, but 6th has not treated any armor very well. It's also only bad for dreads, since they got all the bad and none of the good (can't flat out with a walker) of 6th edition. Perhaps there is too much IG/DE/GKs around me, as that has skewed my thinking a bit.

Rifledreads have always been mediocre. In 5th, their niche was in high demand because light armor spam was in style. Now, they're basically there on the off chance that someone still brings heavy mech. In any other situation, Rifledreads take up an elites slot that could have gone to terminators, sternguard, or whatever. To be honest with you, I've seen 2 C:SM armies in all my time playing 6th edition so far, and only one of them are actually changing their army towards slogging/drop pods. Most of the C:SM players are either not in my area, have changed to a variant marine codex, or have stopped playing. I, for example, have sold off a lot of my Iron Hands in favor of Grey Knights when they were finally updated, and I have no intentions of returning to C:SM.

Hey Giga, it's been a while. Nice to see you're back. Well... there's good news and bad news. Good news is that C:SM has gotten a few new tricks to pull with the new way of handling bike toughness and rapid-fire weapons (Tactical Squads now operate better on foot). Vulkan armies are still pretty decent, as meltas lost no effectiveness vs armor in a time where everything else took a serious hit in effectiveness against armor (compensated by Hull Points, making death of a thousand cuts happen in an eye-blink). Tactical Terminators are much better off now as they can now stand up to power weapon wielding units very well (it requires a much higher investment of points in close combat to see off Tac Terminators). C:SM Librarians are one of the librarians that are actually most likely to keep their powers rather then trade them (Null Zone is still one of the best powers in terms of usefulness, IMO), but in the case that you do trade out, you have access to Telepathy and Biomancy, 2 very nice tables that boast some good force multipliers and offensive capabilities. Bad news is that... well, armor in general has gotten a bit less effective overall in the current metagame. LR + Termies are a dying breed, although they still do show up (when I ever see anyone playing C:SM, that is) since they are basically the only real unit C:SM has for effective close combat against serious CQB threats. Dreads in general are still useless (even more so now that it takes about the equivalent of a stiff breeze to kill them) as are Speeders. On the flip side, fortifications are outstanding, but C:SM has the same access as everyone else to them, making the playing field equal. Telion can make life difficult since he can man the Icarus Lascannon or Quad-gun and pretend that he's a Vindicare Assassin and pick guys off (I guarantee you'll get some groans when you pull this combo out). Scouts got a bit of a second wind, as Sniper Rifles became able to precision shot (great fun to force armor/cover saves on special weapons/icons/stuff). They lost the ability to alpha strike with combi-meltas and the LSS, which limits the usefulness of that unit combo. C:SM has no way of really dealing with fliers outside of fortifications, forge world, and allies. Storm Talons are a joke compared to the Vendetta/Caestus Assault Ram. Be prepared to buy some more stuff to not be helpless. Right now, the tournament circuit is dominated by Daemons using a retarded white dwarf update that makes them basically invincible in a tournament setting (tailoring is basically impossible) and Grey Knight armies that are able to counter Daemons without sacrificing their ability to take on other armies. It's a horrible joke right now, so I wouldn't bother until Daemons are updated.

"Can" and "May" have different meanings. The word "can" means that the subject is able to do what is described in the sentence. The word "may" means that the subject has the option to do what is described in the sentence. A subtle difference that is often forgotten and used by unsuspecting debaters.

I think I'll just stop arguing at this point, as we're in agreement. The unit IS the models, hence all the models must move as quickly as possible towards the closest enemy unit because models = unit! Glad we're in agreement.

The unit must move as fast as possible towards the closest enemy unit. Moving any of the models in that unit in any direction other than in a straight line towards the closest unit is not moving as fast as possible towards the closest enemy unit, thus not satisfying rage. What you did is the direct opposite of what rage says, which is an immediate reason to pack up when done. So the word "unit" refers to all the models in that squad, as a whole, until it is mentioned in Rage. Selective reading, anyone? So you saying that I'm right?

Rage: In the Movement Phase, Units subject to rage must always move as fast as possible towards the closest visible enemy [unit]. The actual rule only says enemy, but seeing as how the unit is the only type of enemy that exists in 40k, I'm clarifying that in the rule with the brackets. Definition of Unit: "A unit will usually consist of several models that fight as a group..." So, reading the rules, we can agree that a unit is the aggregate squad of models in that group and any action that the unit takes applies to all the models in said unit, as shown aptly by Bigdunc. He provided all the examples I was going to use, so I won't waste space and repost them. Step 1: Discern which enemy [unit] is closest to the Unit. Reference 1: pg. 3 of the BRB - "When Measuring distances between two units, use the closest models as your reference points... So for example, if any model in a unit is within 2" of an enemy unit/model, the unit is said to be within 2" of that enemy unit/model". Step 2: Move that unit as fast as possible toward the closest enemy [unit]. This clause in the rule states two things in particular. 1: The unit, by definition the models that make up that unit, move as quickly as possible towards the target. Geometrically, the fastest way towards anything is a straight line. As is the precedent in every other example of unit behavior, the entire unit moves because the unit MUST move. 2: This is handled by using Reference 1; you measure which enemy unit is the closest, then move the entire unit towards that closest unit. Not each model towards the closest enemy model, as it is specifically said that the unit moves towards the closest enemy. Usually a unit because it's very rare to find anything else on the board. Another example not covered by Bigdunc was Assault moves. While making the assault move was voluntary, the assault move itself requires all the models in that unit to move as close as possible, with no holding back. While this is not specified in the Rage USR, it is specified that they MUST move as fast as possible. Which to me sounds like Compulsory movement, as in NO CHOICE, just like the assault move. While it isn't much of a stretch, and dare I say Logical, to say that a unit subject to rage must have the entire unit move as quickly as possible towards the closest enemy unit, it is quite a huge stretch to say that one model representing the unit can move as quickly as possible and allow the other models in the unit IGNORE the MANDATORY movement of Rage to go in a completely different direction. Just my take on how this thing should happen and my reactions to the arguments back and forth about rage.