Hoots

** So I found the answer to my own question below*** It's on the Deathwing Terminator datasheet itself on the bottom right where it says attached unit!! who'd have thought!!! Ok, so I'm just browsing and can't see this anywhere as the chat above is kind of off topic but can someone please help. Terminator librarians form the space marine datasheets can be leaders of relic, assault and regular terminator squads but I don't see anything allowing them to lead a deathwing terminator squad? Please tell me I'm wrong, I'm getting fed up thinking up combos only to find I cant attach certain leaders to certain units, Azrael not being able to join any 1st born except sternguard is just

After a few games with just one supporting bike squad my current force takes two small squads (3 man) with the Sgt getting a storm bolter making them super cheap. whilst the BKs, biker libby, apothecary and shroud move forward to support the scout squads with my other characters these two bike units will be kept in my back lines for a couple of turns to support my ven dreads from deepstrikes. I'm hoping that holding them back should keep them alive until later turns where they are going to be super useful in zooming forward to clear out remaining units camping objectives. Even if just a sgt survives, with 8 shots at 12" he'll do work!

I am currently reading some lore (see below) which i think is quite relevant to this point. I therefore feel that as a chapter this would be reflected in the current Grand master and other high ranking officials views on external forces. Yes they might eventually see those Primaris grown "in house" as being worthy of moving up the ranks and gaining knowledge but given that Cawl has done weird things to their DNA who knows if they have some secret mutations which would allow them to be psychic in a way that my chapter cannot detect; or that they have an in-built coding that means they will spill the beans if they find out anything they or their true masters might think useful in saving the Imperium, Dominating other chapters. I can't think that my Chapter would hide a secret for 10k years then let these guys anywhere near them until they have torn that DNA apart and understood every last thing about it... and given that none of them are as good at genetics as the emperor or have had 10k years like Cawl there's going to be a bit of a wait. Books: Angels of Darkness, By Gav Thorpe and Call of the Lion By Gav Thorpe (short novel in Tales of Heresy) Hoots

Well I knew I wasn't going to be alone but that's quite interesting to see that most people agree on the poor fluff being their biggest problem with the new range. Many liking the models and even agreeing that they would be happy if these were the new size for marines. So my challenge to all those brothers of the Lion is what do you take in a non primaris force? I'd be really keen to see what people think are our best options, I've drawn up mine it's over on Dark Angels army lists pages have look and give it a critique. Hoots

Hi Stobz having collected for years i had lots of old models that were usually quite badly modeled and painted (some from when i was 8 or 9!). Finally sold a lot of them on ebay to pay for a re-fit so I'll be sticking with the core of models I've got for many years to come, and if rules don't continue i'll just have smaller looking marines on the table top :P Glad to hear they won't be dwarfed by everyone else out there, All hail mini-marines! I have conflicting views about Primaris Marines as I have the same problems with them as you do, but after reading some of the recent novels, like Dark Imperium and Crusade, I have a place for them. It's because the fluff...and even the Primaris Marines themselves...acknowledge they're NOT accepted. Even Guilliman considers them "Cawl's blasphemous hordes", just a means to an end. This discussion about just making use of their numbers and firepower is along those lines. And a Guardman Commander berated a Primaris Lieutenant, effectively saying he's been fighting on Cadia and beyond since before they came out of their test tubes. I think even in-universe, they're supposed to be the new poster child, but people instinctively rebelled against that, now they're quite the underdog. I am very much for this mentality of just using Primaris for their numbers and firewpower. In-game, I may reflect this by taking Troops of regular Marines or Scouts to actually do serious work like Secure Objectives while using special Primaris types, like Aggressors, for sheer shootiness and to draw aggro. +++++ As for not using hallowed symbols of the Chapter, I honestly had considered the following idea for Crimson Fists in particular. Imagine a Primaris Marine asking a classic Marine Captain, both in blue armour but with one major different, in this hypothetical scenario/conversation: "Brother Captai..." "No, do NOT call me Brother." "Uh...Captain. When may we paint our hand crimson, as is the practice of the Chapter?" "You may do so when you are part OF the Chapter. When you have survived the devastation of a homeworld, when you have held out without reinforcements for generations, you will have permission to ask me that question." "But Captain! In our blue armour, won't we be confused for Ultramarines?" "As far as I'm concerned, you ARE Ultramarines*!" * I imagine this particular Crimson Fist Captain considers Primaris Marines as some weird Ultramarines Successor that Guilliman birthed somehow that can't even ride Rhinos, not realising even the true Lord of Ultramar doesn't quite accept them as his sons. It's just something I thought would be fun with a Crimson Fists force with Primaris, where all the classic Marines have a hand painted and none of the Primaris do. I personally don't hate Primaris that much anymore for reasons mentioned above, but it turns out even in-universe others don't share that sentiment. N1SB I've yet to use any Primaris other than a leiutenant who got into a couple of games early in 8th. I do have the ones that came in the 8th starter box and if I ever get round to painting them they will be white with maybe only one green shoulder pad or single small green stripe across a knee with no chapter marks. For fluff these primaris will be seen as a literal meat-shield to be sent into areas where the loss of battle brothers would be deemed wasteful or pointless; or used to seemingly support allies/placate unimportant backwater worlds where my chapter don't actually want to waste their time. In table top terms I'm going to stick with the brothers I know I can trust to keep secrets or just not ask questions :D Hoots

I would like to point out that it's very much not the case in the official fluff. One example would be Gabriel Seth in the latest DA novel. While Dante is super happy about new primaris units, Seth points out that it's the end of old marines. Another would be DA, who grudgingly accepted the primaris, and seem to use them as meatshields. I'm not the biggest fan of some heavy-handed writing GW produced, but why be so negative about an excellent model range? Well I'm most negative because it means the eventual end of the old range which I feel had plenty that could still have been done with it. I'm also quite biased as I finally bought new models at the end of 2016 to replace and revamp my whole force (a massive investment of time, money and effort) only to be told that the new edition was going to introduce a new range of marines which will probably mean less standard marines in the future if not their eventual replacement. As for the fluff having some mentions of chapter disapproval I find it still totally grates with the incredibly secretive and independant nature of almost all the different chapters that they would include these new marines in any way. Yes fight alongside them, yes see them as a force that might help you defeat your enemies, but actually including these genetically different beings into the chapter.... Eh nope I just don't see it. Let them keep fight in the blue of the ultramarines afterglow who knows what dirty genetic secretes the mechanicum and guilliman have secreted within them??? After all we know that for most chapters their geneseed is the most precious thing, worth risking lives over and venerated as a pinnacle of mankind's achivements and something we know Cawl had to work on in secret as it was such a taboo thing to do. The the idea that they would not see these new creations simply as abominations and drop everything in a crusade to wipe them out again makes no sense. Id genuinely prefer if GW had just bitten the bullet and said they were a new race and that most marines were at war with them, although you could Ally them in if you felt you wanted your chapter to be less hostile. Let us fight it out then three of four years from now as the old models stock disappears anyways write the fluff saying the primaris won and are now the dominant force protecting humanity. Lastly the idea that Cawl, a mechanic (albeit an old one) has been able to create marines that are twice as resillient as those thought up by the Emperor; an massively ancient super human, psychic, demi God and master of mankind. Yes cawl got to use already available geneseed but couldn't he have just done his job making weapons and given us all those amazing new bolters a couple of thousand years ago? I for one would have bought alternative Tactical, scout, vet units/sculpts (I'm very jealous of the various ultramarine special unit options; tyranic vets look awesome, give me something with a few less ultramarine symbols on it GW and take my money). Who else would have jumped at the chance to purchase redesigned vehicles (designed and built by the mechanicus now that the Imperium has rediscovered so much lost technology)? Instead I just feel like the GW board wants me to throw those old models in the bin and jump for joy at their new storyline and range of models.... The only thing I'm thankful for about it is that it's not quite gone the way of fantasy. Sorry about the rant, I shall cleanse myself with an undisclosed length of meditation in chamber 42.... Hoots

Hey there Anyone else got conflicting views about primaris marines? I feel that fluff wise my chapter would never let these strange interlopers into their midst; at the very most maybe making use of their numbers and firepower in much the same way they would order around a guard unit. I certainly don't think they would be allowed to wear the honoured and hallowed symbols of the chapter or be allowed to know their significance. After all the dark angels and their subsidiaries truly know the meaning of treachery and would never see any group from outside their circles as equals. So I have two questions: 1: what are your best non primaris army lists 2: what fluff are you using for primaris (other than the GW drivel that everyone is super pleased to have primaris around)! Cheers folks Hoots

As with everything it really depends on what you want them to accomplish. For instance I only really took them to fill out a detachment and wanted something that could support my backfield characters a little. By taking a four man squad with storm bolters and a HB I feel I have a bit more firepower to support azrael (one that includes a way of dishing out mortal wounds), provides some additional ablative wounds for azzy and a nearby lieutenant as the vets can jump in to take words from characters within 3" and it's also four extra bodies to hold an objective. Lastly the squad size of four means that both my characters can mount up with the squad in their razorback for safety or if Im forced to redeploy to reach/contest other objectives or board areas. I thought about putting some Ccw in there but decided that it was just going to make the guys a little too expensive which would make me less likely to use their wound soaking abilities and by keeping them next to azrael they arent in need of storm shields. So I'm not going to rubbish someone choosing cc orientated vets but if people tell us how they hope to use them and where they fittings the plasma we'll all be better able to give feedback. Hiots

And That is actually an interesting idea I havent thought of. Is it point efficient to do that? Is it even worth it. Vanguard detachment Lieutenant with Storm Bolter (62pts) 3x Company Veterans each one with Sgt with double storm bolter and a Veteran with Lascannon. (61x3=183pts) For total of 245 pts you get 7 Storm Bolters and 3 Lascannons and 10 wounds and 1 CP In comparison a Dev squad with ten bodies for total of 230 points nets you 4 lascannons, 6 Standard Bolters (3 storm bolter equivalents). So in comparison for extra 15 points you gain a CP, a Character with ability to reroll ones to wound, and extra 8 standard bolters but you loose out on one lascannon. Also they are 4 units instead of 2 combat squads. This might be a interesting actually, our Company Champion is also insanely good and could be used. Just to brain storm, we could take 3 Vanguard detachments each one with 2xCompany Veterans with above gear and 1 Company Champion, each with Lietenant leading them. Thats 6 lascannons, 15 Storm Bolters, 3 Blades of Caliban, 36 wounds, and 3 CP. for 672 points. Now to make a 1000 point list. I would replace one Lt. with Azrael for obvious benefits of 4++ plus reroll therefore raising the price to 790 pts. Switch another Lt. for Asmodai, add razorback with hb/sb and another company champion thats 985 pts. You got 15 points to throw some upgrades around. This might be killer 1k game list. You got scary melee death star, you got long range firepower and you got enough decent amount of storm bolters. There is definitely something interesting about this. Hey just so you know a Vet Sgt can replace both his bolt pistol and chainsword but under the Sgt weapon options he's limited to only taking one storm bolter.

I think it's also worth noting that cause the vet squad requires 2 models min you can can happily fit them into a rhino with another five man squad and still fit your characters in there too. I'm taking four to ride in a razorback with a lieutenant and azrael. Obviously azzy will be standing outside at deployment to protect my bikes but it's nice to know that all six of them can trundle off together once hes done that duty. I think that running them cheap so you can use them as ablative wounds for nearby characters is also a perk not to be over looked. I had originally thought to take three with combi-plasma (1 with HB) as I have quite a few already modeled this way but I'm being won over by storm bolters for cheap thrills and lots of dakka whilst Azzy and the Lt should manage to hold off most of the close combat threats I actually get close to (or have allowed past the 9 man black knight squad).

Such a shame it's a beutifull model and was hilarious last edition (enough that I only brought it to play against people who knew it's abilities and wanted to play against it.) I suppose it will continue to look good on the shelf until forgeworld need to sell of excess stock and give it a rules rewrite (how very cynical of me)

Cheers folks I haven't ventured into the realms of forgeworld in 8th at all yet. Having picked up a demios predator and two vidicator laser destroyers near the end of 7th that are now all significantly worse than they were they are struggling to get into lists and I'm really just looking for ways to have a bot of fun with them now and again. Yes it might be a bit of a waste but I do like the kill shot idea just for a laugh. Thanks Hoots

Hey there Just wandering if anyone has one of these and has given it a go in 8th? I've got one on the shelf but have yet to give him a go; I'd be pretty interested to know how he stacks up and whether it's worth putting WOTDA on him? Next to someone allowing him to reroll any ones to hit of course! Cheers