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The way of the water warrior.


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#326
Aidoneus

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Having said that, I remember most of my MtG playing would have been beatdown oriented, with little or no focus on any particular combo.

Combos needn't have anything to do with it. Beatdown, in my mind, is all about speed. It needs to inflict itself upon its enemy before that enemy has a chance to realize what's happening, much less set up its own ways of stopping the beatdown. The best example of this I can think of is a good Goblin deck, which is lightning-fast and will win in four or five turns if you can't figure out a way to stop it.

The Control deck is just one that can stall the Beatdown long enough to set up its own, slower victory conditions. Think of a green or a white deck, with some cheap blockers and life regeneration, which needs to stall until it can build up the mana to unleash huge creatures to stomp all over the enemy.

When thinking about this in terms of Warhammer, it's less about speed and more about inflicting vs. controlling. The 40 Beatdown army isn't necessarily faster, but like the beatdown deck, it's very single-minded, and from the very beginning of the game it immediately tries to define the conflict in terms of its own playstyle. Therefore, a shooty Earth army will get into good cover, spread out, and generally make it hard to kill them. They will begin shooting the closest approaching enemies, and continue to do so all game. In this manner, they seek to ensure that no close combat occurs, and thereby define the terms of conflict as "shoot and outlast the enemy." On the other hand, the cc Fire army will deploy centrally and forward, and will surge forward as one, doing everything in its power to engage the enemy in melee, thereby defining the terms of conflict as "assault and deal as much damage as possible as quickly as possible."

Similarly, the 40k Control list isn't about lasting longer, it's about not letting the Beatdown army define the terms of conflict. The control army is usually highly mobile, letting it avoid CC with aggressive armies, and also letting it seek out and engage in CC with defensive armies. Control armies are not necessarily more well-rounded than Beatdown lists, since a single-minded Earth list will play control to a single-minded Fire list. However, the Water army DOES need to be well-rounded, because it wants to play control against ALL other lists, and so needs to be able to control multiple different types of enemy armies. By being versatile, the Water army can always seek to shift the terms of conflict away from whatever its opponent wants them to be. In this way, the Water list, which is moderately capable in all aspects of the game, will be able to overcome the beatdown list, which is excellent in one aspect of the game but inadequate in all others.
New Year's Resolution 2007: Keep track of my wins and losses. (note: only 1 vs. 1 games counted)

-Chaos (32/6/7) -Space Marines (3/0/0) -Necrons (4/1/0) -Tyranids (17/2/1) -Inquisition (67/13/13)
Total: (123/22/21) W/L/D


#327
minigun762

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The Control deck is just one that can stall the Beatdown long enough to set up its own, slower victory conditions. Think of a green or a white deck, with some cheap blockers and life regeneration, which needs to stall until it can build up the mana to unleash huge creatures to stomp all over the enemy.

Oddly enough thats the kind of army I always played.
I would have considered that to be more of a beatdown, because I was trying to beat our the opponent before they could drop their uber combo on the table.
However what I'm seeing more is that a "balanced' army could play either the Beatdown or the Control and a Water Warrior army is the type of list that is most capable of playing either of those playstyles.
In my mind, this means that a Water Warrior list might play as a Fire army in one game (where they must be the Beatdown) and as an Earth army in the next (where they must be the control).

Or is it more true to say that a Water Army would always play as a Water army, doing whatever is best for itself/worst for the opponent and determining that separately on each turn?

A large part of where I'm coming from is playing what I call a counter-game or counter-playstyle.
In its simplest idea, is the old adage of "choppa the shootas and shoota the choppas", playing to your strengths while denying theirs.
For my money, a "balanced" list needs to be able to respond to different armies in the most appropriate way.
Maybe some examples would help.

For simplicity sake, say we have an SM army comprised entirely of Tactical Squads in a mix of Razorbacks and Rhinos (fairly balanced if boring).
Now pit that army against a Genestealer horde list (true Fire army).
Those Tacticals should adopt a fairly Earth like playstyle with a mix of Air (mobility), denying the opponent the ability to get into assault with their Genestealers by blocking charges with armor, focus firing squads, feeding them sacrificial combat squads to expose them to firepower etc. The SM player is now the Control.
The next game, that same Tactical Squad army plays an IG gunline (true Earth army).
Now the SM player must be aggressive fir eplayer, again with a mix of Air for mobility, closing with the enemy and focusing their limited numbers on a small portion of the army at a time to achieve local superiority. Now the SM player is the Beatdown.
The last game, the same SM player plays against a Raider heavy Dark Eldar army (true Air army)
Maybe the SM player tries to go the Earth route again, circling the wagons and combining his squads together to deny any easy kills for his foes or maybe he plays the Fire route, assuming that the best defense is a good offense and hoping to crush the feeble Eldar quickly.
He can't compete on an Air level, as the other player is much faster, but he can use what he has to the best of its ability.

So, would that SM player's Tactical Squad army be considered a Water army because it can play different styles depending on its opponent?
If not, what would it need to change to become one?

Said another way, does Earth + Fire + Air = Water? or does it equal a multi-elemental list?
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#328
The Holy Heretic

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Nope. Its just pure undiluted water.

Remenber the definition of Fire, Earth and Air armies as armies with a pre-set tactic and limited battleplan, while Water is reactive and adapts to its opponents by being able to approach the battle in various ways.

Then of course it is against the mindset of the whole concept to narrow it down it down and trying to define it by labeling it with words, as this limits the scope of the thing. Very Kung Foo'ey take on the adage "no plan survives contact with the enemy" :blush:

#329
louelleg

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The trouble is that Heavy Bolters are already AP 4, so one of the main benefits of the upgrade is wasted. Not so with the Justicar, who has a mere AP 5 before the upgrade.That is actually far more important than any counter arguement I can come up with.

Louelleg
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Simulation prêt

#330
flameseeker574

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He can't compete on an Air level, as the other player is much faster, but he can use what he has to the best of its ability.

So, would that SM player's Tactical Squad army be considered a Water army because it can play different styles depending on its opponent?
If not, what would it need to change to become one?

Said another way, does Earth + Fire + Air = Water? or does it equal a multi-elemental list?


The ARMY would be considered a water army, as it is quite flexible and chances are that it will be better than you in at least one area (shooting,CC, Mobility ect.)
However you must take into account that the unit you are using is a bit earthy (tacs emphasize T4 3+ save in their stats,plus cant get full shooting potential without staying still)

It is entirely possible to play a water army without using any water units (they help though) as long as your army can effectively mimic the 3 other elements your golden.

#331
silversmith82

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This thread seems to have devolved into "my army isn't water, is it not going to be able to win now?", or, "well army A, isn't exactly water like army B is...". Honestly, these concepts are just something someone came up with and your idea of "the 4 elements" might be totally different and no less legit. There are not just 4 types of army... you might be able to check off certain criteria to make yours match or be a close match to the OP's 4 types but don't think you have to adhere to it exactly.

5th ed has changed ALOT of how we can play our army. Like that first 1,000 pt list with the single BC... you now have a 1 wound character that the enemy can(and will) single out in combat. Conversely, this makes the GM/Stern a huge advantage now. In combat they can instagib an enemy character like a DP while remaining immune to retaliation as long as they have a GKT retinue for ablative wounds. Crusaders are much better to take now with how many vehicles are played in 5th. 48" of the godhammers are nice, but good luck staying at that sort of range for more than a turn before a podding dread or a fast moving vehicle with a melta ruins your day. Better is to keep the Crusader moving at full speed to make it hard to hit. The DH Crusader is the ONLY tank in the game that can fire ALL of its weapons while moving full speed which more than makes up for the inferior assault cannons on it. The ability for it to carry troops is just icing on the cake. For the orgininal 1,000 pt list, what I would do is change the LR out to LRC and use an independent Inquisitor Lord in place of the BC attached to one of the GK squads. 3 wounds helps since he doesn't have a retinue for ablative wounds. If you are still hellbent on going pure GK at 1,000 pts... The BC is your only option besides a GM which is too much for 1,000 pts IMO.

Don't get me wrong, I love me some GK but pure GK has really become an exercise in futility. If this doesn't bother you and you are just playing for fun then no problem but for ppl like me who get alot out of good competetive games, we really have to go regular DH or ally in some Sisters. A pure DH army utilizing anti drop pod inquisitors, stormtroopers in rhinos/chimeras for troops and GKT in Crusaders. Only time I will still use PAGK is as 5 man "mini-purgation squads" to secure the home objective.

Edited by silversmith82, 03 November 2009 - 10:09 AM.


#332
jeffersonian000

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Unfortunately, an Inquisitor as your single HQ does not unlock GK LR's for use as Heavy Support selections. And while one of the better DH lists these days is 2 LRC's support by IST in Rhinos, the Way of the Water Warrior is still a treatise on how to think about a game rather than how to play a game or which units to take. There have been a number of other articles posted regarding reactive warfare using 5th edition Marine units with a number of threads were these tactics have been applied to non-Marines armies. In the end, Water Warrior tactics have more to do with staying flexible and getting the most out of your units without limiting yourself to any one specific tactic or play style.

In support of the OP, I'm finding most of Silent Requiem’s thoughts on the subject to still be true in 5th edition at the 1000pt level, and that like he himself has stated, the tactics seem to very greatly as the army point total increases. Number 6's IST list seems to fit the 1750pt range as a Water Warrior styled army, even though it has really no relations unit-wise to SR's 1000pt army. The tactics are the same, because the way of going about using the available units has not changed.

SJ
“And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.”
- Revelations 9:9

#333
SamaNagol

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Id argue against the LRC with ISTs being a water warrior build. You are very much a one trick pony when it comes to ISTs with Melta in a Rhino. And the GKTs in a LRC operate at a specific range as opposed to the PAGK in a GHLR. With the number6 build you are far more proactive then Silent Requiem's force, and as such veering towards being a Fire list.

#334
number6

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Forgot to note that I split the recent army list discussion to its own topic.
RIP Warhammer 40,000: 21 Sep 1998 - 24 May 2014

#335
minigun762

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He can't compete on an Air level, as the other player is much faster, but he can use what he has to the best of its ability.

So, would that SM player's Tactical Squad army be considered a Water army because it can play different styles depending on its opponent?
If not, what would it need to change to become one?

Said another way, does Earth + Fire + Air = Water? or does it equal a multi-elemental list?


The ARMY would be considered a water army, as it is quite flexible and chances are that it will be better than you in at least one area (shooting,CC, Mobility ect.)
However you must take into account that the unit you are using is a bit earthy (tacs emphasize T4 3+ save in their stats,plus cant get full shooting potential without staying still)

It is entirely possible to play a water army without using any water units (they help though) as long as your army can effectively mimic the 3 other elements your golden.


Well said Flameseeker. Looks like I was caught looking at the trees and not the forest.

As for this topic moving into a "this is/isn't water warrior" I don't think thats the case. To understand something, you need to challenge and question it.
I can say that my knowledge of WofWW has improved vastly by means of this thread and I'm grateful for that.
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#336
Ced

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Now, more than two years later, I have read this post and feel so much enlightened, that I must declare my allegiance to the OP and bend my knee to express my undying gratitude. I was out of the game for three years and never really got into it the last time, so I was kind of just wandering around aimlessly, trying to grasps what to do with the army I chose (DH, obviously - was a fluff and style decision), so I stumbled across a mechanized melta-happy armylist for 1500 points on that other forum for trigger-happy Orkz, and deciding to go with that. That would be a fire army. Having read all this (and I did, you don't scare me with walls of text!), I reconfigured my armylist(s) and can't wait to put theory to practice.

Many thanks, SR.
Should you need a place of refuge in Northern Germany, I'd be happy to oblige. :D
Army: =][= "Purgare Juventus"
Daemonhunters Battle Force (Army Book WIP & German: #1, #2, #3)

PtsDone: 5x GKT, 10x IST, 1x Rhino (~450 pts)
PtsToDo: A whole fethin' lot. (4500 or something ... argh.)
Element: Fire, until I saw the light ...
Planing: I am finishing 1500 pts of Fire (mech. Meltastorm) and will then reconfigure to Water (PAGK/Raider).

#337
Algesan

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Fourteen pages, so you've probably had enough kudos, but I'll add some and some first cut thoughts.

Don't worry about not understanding great military writers, too many supposedly competent generals didn't get them either. The failure comes from trying to convert the Art of war into the Science of war IMO.

Brilliant breakdown into the four elements and I noted your caveat about armies being mostly "mixed" elemental types. Of course, I've read (and played enough simulations) that I try to convert things to what I understand best as you did. So even though I'm a 40k n00b, I'm trying to grasp the design instead of the rules, which is actually driving the two veteran players crazy. First I want the rule exhaustively checked out, then I have to ask, "Why that way?".

So, I wouldn't use four elements, I'd use the terms Mover (Air), Shooter (Earth), Assaulter (Fire) and Mixed (Water). What you are building is an army that is able to be a jack of all trades that can seize control, negate/mitigate the enemy's strengths while emphasizing the flexibility of your Mixed setup. Nitpicking because you noted the Sisters are a Fire army type (and they could work that way), but I'm working on building them into a combined arms team to do the negating/emphasizing and seize control of the initiative. Which would mean that I'm building a Fire army that is going to play as a Water army.

I mean to shoot and assault Movers, move and assault Shooters and move and shoot Assaulters. I want to be able to walk in, find out how many points, pull the list, setup and go to town. Maybe, maybe, I tell you three times, maybe, I might have a few variations depending on the army I'm facing, but I'm not planning that now.

You actually pinpointed something in my 2500 army list that was bothering me because it doesn't fit right, I was actually more comfortable with my 2000 list. Methinks too much Fire, not enough Water in that last 500 points...

Anyway, thanks so much for the work, I had to register to say so.

Former player of the formerly independent Space Marine faction known as the Black Templar.

Not a Pollyanna playing the codex compliant smurfed "Black Templars".


#338
Archon_77

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Extreme bumpage for reference to Lady Cannoness project

Yes, Virginia, there really is a Santa Claus

 

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#339
thade

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Awwww, haha. I saw that OP and the title and I thought "Has...has he returned?"

Dirty thread necro. :lol: You should've just linked this puppy instead. Let this thread be at peace. <3
QUOTE. In the book called "Core Rules". Page 14. Top Left Inset. In the chapter called "General Principles."
"Your responsibility isn't just to follow the rules, it's also to add your own ideas, drama and creativity to the game. Much of the appeal of this game lies in the freedom and open-endedness that this allows; it is in the spirit that the rules have been written."

QUOTE. Silent Requiem
"About my list; it is weak. But it fits me, and that counts for a lot more than any amount of mathammer."

#340
Lady_Canoness

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Haha - this isn't threadomancy!

This is a just return for that which was once stickied!
QUOTE (Nexus25 @ Mar 1 2012, 07:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I know I am. I would unplug the Throne itself for that woman!!

QUOTE (Kamikaze14 @ Feb 17 2011, 04:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It's people like you that make me proud to be a World Eater.

QUOTE (Shas'o R'Vre @ Mar 5 2011, 08:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
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