129 replies to this topic

[Captain Idaho]

Firstly, lets be civil all you non-ultras out there, we dont need to hear anti-ultras raving to make Guilliman the weakest Primarch out there. not that i thought most of you would do such a thing, but there may be some heretics out there new to the forum etc...

now on to buisness.

we have the core primarch rules else where, so we dont need to put them up here. im keen to point out that i feel Guilliman should have fairly standard stats as he was never described as overly strong in comparison to his brothers. obviously people may disagree, which we can discuss as normal, but i think most people will agree with me here.

i have only added a single special rule, as per my opinion in the core rules topic that primarchs shouldnt have more than 1 or 2. remember his weapon special rules are not inlcuded in this total, nor are the core special rules, so we dont want to create a logistics monster. (ironic eh?)

now, the question is how do we repersent his benefits to an army he is leading? many of his strengths are important but solely fluff based and not practical in a wargame.

the best way i can think of repersenting his mastery of logistics and strategy would be:

Master of Logistics and Planning: Any battle fought against the an army that contains Guilliman MUST deploy his/her entire army (minus reserves and infiltrators) first. At the discretion of the player using Guilliman he/she can chose to interupt their opponent at any time and deploy any unit they wish themselves (including deploying first) and can if deploy his/her army in any order they wish.

In addition, the armys reserves can be deployed at any time at without recourse to a Reserves roll. Reserves do not have to be deployed if the player so wishs. Models and units that are deploying via deepstrike (including drop pods) do not roll for scatter and land automatically on target.

what do people think of this rule? i feel it emphasises his mastery of logistics nicely.

as for weapons, he was described as having 2 weapons in fluff; a sword and the good old gaunlets of ultramar. i think we should follow convention with the calgar rules of being able to chose before the game what to arm him with (although its armour in calgar's case).

not sure on the name of the sword, suggestions welcome.

Bolter of Courage: Master crafted bolter that fires as many shots as he has attacks when within 12". The weapon also grants a the True Grit universal special rule.

Sword of Honour: Counts as a Master crafted Power weapon that gives Calgar +1 initiative and never wounds anything on worse than a 4+.

i have tried to enable calgar to still fight something big and not struggle to wound, hence the 4+ rule. (people working on other primarchs should bare this in mind!) the extra initiative is there because in the alpha legion IA he seems to get the drop on Alpharius using a sword, who you would imagine would be a pretty sneaky and quick guy.

Gauntlets of Ultramar: As per the wargear entry in Marneus Calgar's special rules in Codex: Spacemarines, but strikes at initiative 4.

simple and taken from the first idea of guilliman.

Edited by Captain Idaho, 21 April 2007 - 02:11 PM.

[Arthus]

dont forget the integrated bolters in the gauntlets of ultramar.
i tihnk its great.
and considering the fact that he gains + 1 initiative and has initiative 4 weapons and is still strenght 5 base primarch rules) he should be good.
i do think he should ahve at least one more rule. (sanguinus so far ahs 2 ad i tihnk dorn ahs gone up to 4) jsut to make him look a bit more cool. i jst dotn know any guilman fluf. sorry!

[Captain Idaho]

of course he has built in bolters! what a mistake to make for a supposed veteran like me! i will add a bolter to him, give him true grit also so he can have a respectable 5 attacks. see above my amendments!

another rule could be handy, one that shows his "honour" perhaps? any ideas? i will go eat my dinner and post one up in abit!

[Arthus]

hmmm.
how about.
"Honourary Aura"
Guilman is an Honour bound Primarch and his Marines are some of the most loyal and coragous out of all the legions.
all models within 12" of Guillman are fearless.

This is just a better version of the "fearless" rule in the primarch core rules. and cant be deemed to powerfull because if i recal the Eldar avatar has the same thing.

or maby.
Hounurable death
Guillman would never die a death short of Glorious and will go down clutching his foe by their throat.
If guilman is reduced to one wound he MUST charge the closest enemy unit, tank, character (anything)
Guillman recievs +2 atacks and +1 initiative for the charge. as he trys to take as many of his foes as he can with him. the bonus lasts untill he either crushes the unit (or anything) he has charged or untill a different unit (ultramarine or not) joins the combat.

[Captain Idaho]

that honourable death rule is really good! i would be inclined to say that when on a single wound, all ultramarine models within say 6", including himself, would get +2 attacks but -1 initiative to better repersent his couragous nature and that of his brothers.

in the ultras Index astartes it states a warrior of the maccragge should return carrying their spear or be life-less upon it (ripped off from the spartans of course), so i think this rule is very fluffy. in fact i may be "stealing" it in 1 way or another for my work on the Codex: Ultramarine project i have been working on.

So far we have this:

Roboute Guilliman
Points cost: 350pts

WS:6 BS:6 S:5 T:5 W:4 I:6 A:5 Ld:10 Sv:2+/4+*

Weapons: Gauntlets of Ultramar OR Bolter of Courage and Sword of Honour.

Bolter of Courage: Master crafted bolter that fires as many shots as he has attacks when within 12", which will be 5 under normal circumstances. The weapon also grants Guilliman the True Grit universal special rule.

Sword of Honour: Counts as a Master crafted Power weapon that gives Calgar +1 initiative and never wounds anything on worse than a 4+.

OR

Gauntlets of Ultramar: Count as 2 Master crafted Power fists with built in bolters that fire together with the same effect as a storm bolter. Guilliman strikes at initiative 4 instead of 1 when attacking with the Gauntlets.

Special Rules: Please see core Primarch special rules.

Master of Logistics and Planning: Any battle fought against the an army that contains Guilliman MUST deploy his/her entire army (minus reserves and infiltrators) first. At the discretion of the player using Guilliman he/she can chose to interrupt their opponent at any time and deploy any unit they wish themselves (including deploying first) and can deploy his/her army in any order they wish.

In addition, the army's reserves can be deployed at any time without recourse to a Reserves roll. Reserves do not have to be deployed if the player so wishes. Models and units that are deploying via deepstrike (including drop pods and Landspeeders) do not roll for scatter and land automatically on target.

Honourable Death: Guilliman was brought up on the planet Maccragge where it was common practice for a warrior to fight to the death rather than flee an enemy, all to retain their honour. Indeed there is a common saying on Maccragge; "a warrior should return home carrying their shield or carried lifeless upon it". As such, when Guilliman is down to a single wound or outnumbered in an assault Guilliman and all Ultramarine models within 6" gain +2 attacks to as they fight with more intensity to keep their honour.

hows that? i think it is pretty good, but others may disagree.

Edited by Captain Idaho, 21 April 2007 - 04:19 PM.

[Brother Vyze]

I think his points should be adjusted for the weapons and additional rules (remember 350 was for a Primarch with no weapons and no additional rules)

Gauntlet of Ultramar at +110 points ( if you count the master crafting on both the Storm-Bolter and the Gaunlets)
2 power fists at 15 points + 2 master-craftings at 30 points + storm bolter at 5 points + 3 Initiative at 30 points + adjustments for strength and WS at 15 points + special abilities at 15 points = 125 points
Bolter of Courage and Sword of Honour at +115 points
Bolter of Courage = 3 master crafted storm bolters at 30 points + Power Weapon at 15 points + master-crafting at 15 points + 1 Initiative + adjustments for strength and WS at 15 points + special abilities at 15 points + Poisioned Blades at 15 points = 105 points

Edited by Brother Vyze, 22 April 2007 - 12:28 AM.

[Vashiel]

The GoU are overpriced there, as it's only one reroll, and 2 PFs is too pricey as the same effect can be achieved with a PF and a CCW, as the other PF merely adds another attack.

Another thought: Maybe include the rule from Calgar (exact name escapes me) that allows to choose result of Leadership Tests. That way he can also be exempt from the extra wounds in CC if (big if) his unit loses.

Edited by Vashiel, 21 April 2007 - 08:36 PM.

[Brother Vyze]

Prices have been fixed, I've also fixed the price of the Sword of Honour, forgot about the price of the extra point of Initiative.

[Captain Idaho]

you are looking at it too clinically. over 450pts for a model with that statline is a little much. you cant gather the prices of individual items of wargear and say its culminative, as the price of the model comes from the overall capabilities of it and its worth in the army.

remember also the stats of Guilliman are supieror already, so being able to strike at I7 is not as much of an advantage against most opponents as it appears (though against eldar and genestealers it is more useful). likewise, many of his rules make him real good at smiting big targets (carnifexs etc) so the price of him makes him less useful if its too expensive as you get less of an army to support him, which means he can get cut down easier. lets not forget the hidden PFs that can smite him down.

and dont forget the combat rules; a model can only attack a single unit at a time, so if he was faced with say Jain Zar and 10 harlequins he could only attack the phoneix lord or squad not both. so he is vulnerable to hidden PFs combined with a dread attack or IC attack.

for example, a SM chaplain (MOS) with BP, terminator honours, jump pack and artificer armour is worth 146pts in a marine army, but in a Tau army his worth as a counter charge and assault unit would make him worth an easy 180pts, probably 200pts.

so give appropiate points costs on the total effect of the primarch in question. bare in mind the average size game is 1500pts, so the primarch would be less useful the more expensive it costs, which ironicall would bring the costs down.

having said this, i think Guilliman in its present incarnation should be worth a good 380pts. this is a good amount to charge someone, as imagine having to face a 1500pts army with Guilliman and only 1120pts, baring in mind his weakness to being overwhelmed with hidden PFs and dreads etc that he needs support troops and a transport making the army even smaller.

what do you guys think of the price of 380pts? does it appease? remember the price of the nightbringer is 360pts, who is probably able to win in combat against him.

Edited by Captain Idaho, 22 April 2007 - 01:23 PM.

[Brother Vyze]

But the Primarchs themsevles might not be worth 350 points, stats alone say they are worth about 250. I think the real problem is the cost of the base Primarch.

[Cowmonaut]

Roboute Guilliman
Points cost: 350pts

WS:6 BS:6 S:5 T:5 W:4 I:6 A:5 Ld:10 Sv:2+/4+*

Weapons: Gauntlets of Ultramar OR Bolter of Courage and Sword of Honour.

Bolter of Courage: Master-Crafted Bolter that fires as many shots as he has attacks when within 12", which will be 5 under normal circumstances. The weapon also grants Guilliman the True Grit universal special rule.

Sword of Honour: Counts as a Master-Crafted Power Weapon that gives Guilliman +1 initiative and wounds on a 4+.

OR

Gauntlets of Ultramar: Count as 2 Master crafted Power fists with built in bolters that fire together with the same effect as a storm bolter. Guilliman strikes at initiative 4 instead of 1 when attacking with the Gauntlets.

Special Rules: Please see core Primarch special rules.

Master of Logistics and Planning: Any battle fought against an army that contains Guilliman MUST deploy his/her entire army (minus reserves and infiltrators) first. At the discretion of the player using Guilliman he/she can chose to interrupt their opponent at any time and deploy any unit they wish themselves (including deploying first) and can deploy his/her army in any order they wish.

In addition, the army's reserves can be deployed at any time without recourse to a Reserves roll. Reserves do not have to be deployed if the player so wishes. Models and units that are deploying via deepstrike (including drop pods and Landspeeders) do not roll for scatter and land automatically on target.

Honourable Death: Guilliman was brought up on the planet Maccragge where it was common practice for a warrior to fight to the death rather than flee an enemy, all to retain their honour. Indeed there is a common saying on Maccragge; "a warrior should return home carrying their shield or carried lifeless upon it". As such, when Guilliman is down to a single wound or outnumbered in an assault Guilliman and all Ultramarine models within 6" gain +2 attacks to as they fight with more intensity to keep their honour.

First, I'm not an Ultramarines player. I've read the IA article and the codex provided fluff and that's basically it. I tend to stick to my Wolves or DIY Chapter or Templar.

Now, I have a few comments.

First I did some minor word/grammar correctage to your rules. For example you used Calgar instead of Guilliman a few times. Nothing major.

Second, Like the Sword of Honor, Bolter of Courage naming. Very Ultramar-ey. . . Need to figure out the word that means 'like Ultramar/Ultramarines'. I also like their rules as it shows they are one step above 'normal' master-crafted weapons. The 5 shot bolter may be a bit much, but then again it IS a Special Character. I think however you should drop the True-Grit. My view of that rule may be a bit outdated, but I always pictured more 'reckless' marines such as Space Wolves as benifiting from it.

Robut Guilliman seems a bit more 'by the book' and to me would just shoot his Bolter like a typical Bolter. If he wanted to be better in hand to hand I figure he'd give himself a Pistol like he has all Assault Marines equipped. Otherwise why wouldn't they just train up to that level?

Third, the Logistics Master special rule seems a bit clunky. Also I'd think that given the choice he'd want to choose his terrain. As the rule stands now your opponent can foce you into some bad areas depending on the mission and table size.

Why not just have it say that all units in an army led by Robute Guilliman benifit from the Scouts USR with the exception of Infilitrators? Now your entire army is always available if you want, and you get your free move to show how much better at positioning Guiliman is than other commanders. Just because a rule is designed and named with one thing in mind does not mean it can not be applied to represent something else. That much is clear from GW precedent.

Fourth, I like your last special rule. Debating with myself to suggest it being the ability to re-roll your wound attempts rather than the +2 attacks however. Both tend to be used to represent fierocity in the red shade of things. But I think the rule works best as it is now.


So essentially I said all that and only two points:

1) Possibly re-think the Bolter rule.

2. Master of Logistics and Planning: Robute Guilliman is well known for his command abilities. An army led by Robute Guilliman benifits from the Scouts USR with the exception of Infiltrators.


In regards to the point cost, I too thought it was a bit much after some thought so am suggesting it be dropped sharply in the Core Primarch Rules thread.

[Brother Barak]

I second the scout thing. Its a much more flexible way of achieving the same goal, and it doesn't overpower the game too much. And I'd maybe tone down the Honourable Death rule to give +1A instead of +2, I mean a whole command squad backed up by a terminator assault squad with +2A per model is rough... rough enough that the power gamer in me would try and get Gulliman hurt to this level just to take advantage of this rule. I'd sacrifice him in a heartbeat to give the nearby 10 man assault terminator squad a total of 60 Lightning claw strikes on the charge, even better if there were 2 10-man squads...

[Cowmonaut]

I second the scout thing. Its a much more flexible way of achieving the same goal, and it doesn't overpower the game too much. And I'd maybe tone down the Honourable Death rule to give +1A instead of +2, I mean a whole command squad backed up by a terminator assault squad with +2A per model is rough... rough enough that the power gamer in me would try and get Gulliman hurt to this level just to take advantage of this rule. I'd sacrifice him in a heartbeat to give the nearby 10 man assault terminator squad a total of 60 Lightning claw strikes on the charge, even better if there were 2 10-man squads...

Glad it's seconded

But to the reason I reply, I'd like to point out that Ragnar Blackmane's special rules affect his whole unit. A terminator Wolf Guard Bodyguard with +2 to assault is just as deadly, and happens far more frequently.

[Captain Idaho]

your tidying up is a little too efficient mate, you have made the sword of honour rather rubbish! if it wounds on a 4+ at all times he would be at a disadvantage against anything lower than toughness 5! we should have kept it wounding on nothing worse than 4+!

im not sure about the scout special rule, i dont think it really shows the logistic superiority he has. i admit the rule as it stands is clunky, but perhaps it just needs a clean up/alternative? its not too much of a disadvantage though, as i would like to point out that the player can interupt the opponent at any time. i will go away and have a think.

the reasoning behind the bolter being a) true grit is because hes a primarch! he is skillful enough to use a bolter 1 handed, certainly big enough to use a bolter as a pistol!

b ) multiple shots to make the weapon worthwhile! its a little bolter remember. bare in mind the other primarchs on this forum are much more powerful! against a bloodthirster Guilliman is actually gona lose, so we gota give him something!

which actually brings it to my next point; that i think Guilliman's sword of honour could do with some help against said MCs! bare in mind he will only hit 50% against greater daemons, and wound again 50% of the time, then saves. what he needs perhaps is "against opponents with toughness 6 or more guilliman is allowed to re-roll his to wound rolls"

good idea? he is 380pts and as it stands is likely to get smashed by other MCs who are much cheaper!

Edited by Captain Idaho, 23 April 2007 - 07:01 PM.

[Cowmonaut]

Oops! I tottaly spaced there! Glad you caught my mistake, that could have been REALLY bad in a fight!

I think you may be right about the Scouts special rule. Possibly, at least giving me second thoughts about it. With that rule setup is normal, though in missions where you normally don't have some forces available you get them. This shows his expertise in planning as he's ready for anything then. You also get a free move at the start of the game, showing even more his planning capabilities as he is able to get into position quicker than your average general.

But something is missing. How bout in addition to the Scouts special rule for his army, he counts as having a Macharian Cross (for game purposes)?


As for the True Grit ability, perhaps we should amend that to the Primarch Special Rules then? It doesn't count as a Pistol when you charge, so some Primarchs would still use a Bolt Pistol (Leman Russ comes to mind) instead. I think I had a problem with it because it seemed to be a trait of Guilliman specifically than because he's a Primarch.


In regards to fighting Daemons, all the Primarchs can easily go toe to toe with them barring the Bloodthirster.

In a fight against a Bloodthirster (in melee), your average Primarch is going to hit 50% of the time, and wound 33% of the time. Factor in the 4+ save (assuming its a power weapon of some sort as most will probably have) and I think the Primarchs each have an 8.25% chance to score a wound on the bugger! (50% [WS 6 vs 9 = 4-6 on d6] * 33% [S5 vs T6 = 5-6 on d6] * 50% [Sv 4+ = 4-6 on d6]= 8.25%; hopfully my math isn't tottaly off.)

Comparitvley on most Primarchs the Bloodthirster hits 66% of the time, wound 83% of the time, and have to get past a 4+ Invulnerable save (as they are MCs). So the Bloodthirster will get a wound 27.39% of the time! (66% [WS 9 vs 6 = 3-6 on d6] * 83% [S8 v T5 = 2-6 on d6] * 50% [Sv 4+ = 4-6 on d6] = 27.39%)

This is per one attack mind you. Primarchs, with more attacks, have more chances to get that 8.25%.

Thats how the math plays out unless I should have failed (which is possible) the class, but in practice it is different.

Generic Chaos Lords can take out the Nightbringer in hand to hand. I've seen it done, and there are threads on the forum here that are about that I believe. The Primarchs have better base stats than the Chaos Lord, and most will have better weapons. The Nightbringer is about as deadly as a Bloodthirster. Worse WS, better Strength and toughness, more attacks and wounds when you compare him to one.

I don't think it needs to do anything special to monsterous creatures. I wouldnt mind see it allow re-rolls to wound (thinking along the lines of Litanies of Hate) but other than that I think it is fine. Especially since Guilliman will wound 50% of the time rather than 33% with the way the weapon works now.

[Brother Barak]

As someone who doesn't play Ultramarines I'm not sure about the Sword of Honour and the Bolter of Courage. They are cool in their way, but I'd really like to see the Gauntlets of Ultramar be manditory. When I think of Rob I think of the gauntlets, and If he had a sword and bolter I'd be sitting there thinking "Where are his massive gauntlets?"

Plus aren't we only ment to have one weaopn kit for them? There may be examples of him using a sword in the fluff, but we're trying to portray the Primarchs as iconic figures.

The Nightbringer is about as deadly as a Bloodthirster

The Nightbringer is more deadly. A Bloodthirster doesn't stand a chance against the Nightbringer.

[Brother Vyze]

The Primarch's point cost has dropped to 235 points base, so a high point cost has been avoided. I second that the GOU should be mandatory, all the other Primarchs so far only have one weapon loadout and the Gauntlets are very fluffy.

[Cowmonaut]

I'm going to have to second Brother Vyze. The Gauntlets of Ultramar are unique, and known to have been used by the Primarch. The closest to 'two weapons' a Primarch has currently is Leman Russ, but the stats are exactly the same. Only the model representation and origins are different.

[Spacefrisian]

About that being outnumberd, wouldn't it be an option of having him the ability of taking a stronger version of the Honour guard. Maybe going as far as calling it the 1st Honour guard. These guys would be somewhat beefed up of course and not the same as they are now. Example 5+ invulnerable saves add I/A something like those lines.

[Captain Idaho]

woa there Spacefrisian, lets get the primarch done before we start making new units!

well there is justification of why to take a choice of weapons, as the fight between Alpharius clearly depicts him with a sword (which is post heresy) and he is described as having a bolter from Codex: Ultramarines in 2nd edition there is a marksman honour for marines that are gold encased bolter shells from the bolter of Guilliman. i believe this is more iconic as there is no other image of Guilliman using the Gauntlets other than he won them in single combat.

hence the choice. plus precedent with calgar having 2 suits of armour. it can be what makes an otherwise standard primarch (Guilliman) a little more unique and interesting in comparison to his brothers and their quirky rules!

heres why i dislike the scouts rule: it is a rule that is more fitting Alpharius and Guilliman is opposite in philosophy.

so i think we should change it completely.

saying that, i think we should say Guilliman can chose when his units come in as reserves instead of having to roll, and they do not scatter. thats powerful in itself. forget the deployment rule though, i admit it is hard to implement!

here is what i have so far. i know you guys may be a little annoyed that im not keen on dropping the sword and bolter, but i really like them. baring that in mind, what shall we do about additional tactical and organisational brilliance he is supposed to have? i have tried to add something in here. also, what do we think of the points cost?

Roboute Guilliman
Points cost: 360pts

WS:6 BS:6 S:5 T:5 W:4 I:6 A:5 Ld:10 Sv:2+/4+*

Weapons: Gauntlets of Ultramar OR Bolter of Courage and Sword of Honour.

Bolter of Courage: Master-Crafted Bolter that fires as many shots as he has attacks when within 12", which will be 5 under normal circumstances. The weapon also grants Guilliman the True Grit universal special rule.

Sword of Honour: Counts as a Master-Crafted Power Weapon that gives Guilliman +1 initiative and never wounds anything on worse than a 4+. In addition, the weapon allows a single re-roll of a failed to-wound roll in assault each turn.

OR

Gauntlets of Ultramar: Count as 2 Master crafted Power fists with built in bolters that fire together with the same effect as a storm bolter. Guilliman strikes at initiative 4 instead of 1 when attacking with the Gauntlets.

Special Rules: Please see core Primarch special rules.

Master of Logistics and Planning: The army containing Guilliman can chose when it deploys (e.g. second), can deploy units and models in any order regardless of force organisation location and can chose whether to move first or second.

In addition, the army's reserves can be deployed at the beginning of any turn without recourse to a Reserves roll. Reserves do not have to be deployed if the player so wishes. Models and units that are deploying via deepstrike (including drop pods and Landspeeders) do not roll for scatter and land automatically on target.

Honourable Death: Guilliman was brought up on the planet Maccragge where it was common practice for a warrior to fight to the death rather than flee an enemy, all to retain their honour. Indeed there is a common saying on Maccragge; "a warrior should return home carrying their shield or carried lifeless upon it". As such, when Guilliman is down to a single wound or outnumbered in an assault Guilliman and all Ultramarine models within 6" gain +2 attacks as they fight with all the more intensity to keep their honour.

not too complicated, and i think i made the sword reasonable without having too many re-rolls. (i was gona go for all wounds get re-rolls!)

left in True grit until someone changes it in the core rules (i think all primarchs would be able to use the pistol grip on bolters, not just deathguard and spacewolves!)

Edited by Captain Idaho, 24 April 2007 - 05:34 PM.

[Cowmonaut]

Honestly, I'd consider dropping the re-roll to wound. Being able to wound on a 4+ against monsterous creatures, and most of them don't have an invulnerable save (well, the most common are Nids in my gaming group anyways) so you have a damn good chance of wounding on each attack.

If it hasnt been started already, I'm going to throw in True Grit for discussion in the Core rules thread so we may be able to drop that as a weapon ability.

[Captain Idaho]

well i will consider dropping it then my friend, but for now i will leave it in as im not sure we are finished! i do think its a single re-roll, just to protect him against bad luck (imagine if he missed 3 of his 6 attacks, then failed 2 wound rolls against a mere guardsman unit with a priest and eviserator! at least he could stand a chance of killing them within 2 turns instead of 3.)

on the suject what do you think of Guilliman's cost with the re-roll and without it? i think 360pts is pretty good for what he can do against enemy armies and what he is able to acheive with his own army. lets not compare him in a straight fight with the nightbringer (same cost!) as it is relevent to the army Guilliman is in not just could he take opponents with likewise points!

what do you think of the Master of logistics rule with my new changes? any ideas in the event you dont like them?

EDIT - having seen the power of Angron for the same points cost, i feel the single re-roll to wound is not too outrageous!

Edited by Captain Idaho, 24 April 2007 - 08:29 PM.

[Brother Barak]

A fair point with the Gauntlets vs. the Sword. I'm not an Ultramarines player (I'm really just sticking my curious nose in here to make sure Angron stays balanced with the others) so I'll happily defer to your knowledge. I like it being a Special Rule of his, as long as it stays fairly unique. EDIT The only beef I have is with his 2 weapon choices at the moment, the Sword and Bolter is a no-brainer, unless you forgot to take missile launchers and he has to go tank hunting. /EDIT

The new Master of Logistics rule is good, choosing when reserves come in sums up logistics really well, but I'm not sure about the not scattering thing - having several Terminators landing exactly where you want them all at the same time will spell the doom of many an army. maybe leave out the scattering thing and leave it to Teleport Homers to get them in the right place (admitedly this doesn't help drop pods or assault marines, but it's damn hard to aim a drop pod through clouds at a point thats moving at several hundred miles an hour from several hundred miles away, and assault marines will still have to dodge flak on the way down).

EDIT
I've just re-read the Master of Logistics rule, and I would seriosly tone it down a bit. I suggest the following:
Master of Logistics: The army containing Guilliman can deploy units and models in any order regardless of force organisation location and can reroll the dice roll to decide whether to move first or second. In addition, the army's reserves can be deployed at the beginning of any turn without recourse to a Reserves roll. Reserves do not have to be deployed if the player so wishes.

This way it's still a great ability (a clever player could win using this rule alone), but not over the top. It realistically represents a good logistician without automatically winning the game for you.
/EDIT

Honestly, I'd consider dropping the re-roll to wound. Being able to wound on a 4+ against monsterous creatures, and most of them don't have an invulnerable save (well, the most common are Nids in my gaming group anyways) so you have a damn good chance of wounding on each attack.

It already has a special roll to wound, I think the one reroll is a bit redundant and 'tacked on' (it seems like there is no reason for it being there). A garunteed 4+ to wound is pretty good anyway...

EDIT - having seen the power of Angron for the same points cost, i feel the single re-roll to wound is not too outrageous!

But in Angron's defence close combat is all he can do, it's his thing-that-he-is-good-at. Yours is Logistics and Command.

Edited by Brother Barak, 25 April 2007 - 04:22 AM.

[Cowmonaut]

For the Master of Logistics and Planning special rule I mostly agree with Brother Barak. There is one thing though. Warmaster Horus was superior to Robute Guiliman in regards to both, else why wouldnt Guiliman be the Warmaster?

Also in light of the addition of the Strategy Rating beef Primarchs are now given we could include that in this.

Why not:

Master of Logistics and Planning: May re-roll to determine when a unit comes in from Reserve. Only one re-roll per unit per turn, and can be done even if the Reserve unit would normally come in to play. Furthermore you may re-roll the dice when a Stratedgy roll is called for.

So it leaves a bit of chance in it, and it allows you to keep units in reserve so they don't arrive 'too early' if you'd like. Also shows how well at planning he could be since he will most likley be able to choose the mission. Still a good advantage, just not a garuntee.

Part of the reason for a Reserve roll is fluffy. You don't know if enemy anti-air or starfighters are keeping your Thunderhawks/Drop Pods from arriving. Garunteeing that they arrive whenever you want them is a tremendous advantage that I'd even have trouble seeing on Horus. It means you control the airspace and orbit competley. Nothing unexpected on the enemies part can stop you.

Sorry the rule isn't as neat as I normally try to make them but I'm a bit tired at the moment.

[Brother Barak]

Maybe re-rolling all the reserves rolls a turn? Logistics was Rob's thing after all. And he is a Primarch. Angron can spit out 7+1D3 S8 attacks on the charge, so Rob's gotta be good at his thing too.