8 replies to this topic

[Brother Tyler]

Okay, I've created a separate sub-forum for this project, moving all relevant threads herein and changing topic names (i.e., removing the "Primarch:" tag and the irrelevant sub-titles).

My participation in this project will be very limited, although I will give some basic guidance.

First, develop these rules with balanced game play in mind. We will be incorporating the finished product in another project (which you'll learn about later - don't bother asking me about it now). To that end, I'd like to see two sets of rules for the traitor Primarchs. One set will be used for the Great Crusade, when they remained loyal to the Emperor. The second set will be used for the Horus Heresy. Don't expect to have a huge amount of flexibility. While it's likely that the Primarchs picked and chose their equipment from battle to battle, the finished rules from this project will represent each Primarch's typical choices (i.e., most Primarchs will have one loadout, although a few exceptions might have an alternative).

Second, use all existing fluff. I know there will be some disagreement in this, but we'll have to consider the Horus Heresy novels as canon and incorporate the descriptions of each of the Primarchs from those novels in our development. Those novels take precedence over the other Black Library novels and publications (e.g., the Deus ~ novels describe Sanguinius as using a special spear while the Bloodquest graphic novels attributed him with a special sword - he only gets one of those weapons). Sabretooth's card game is another good source of fluff/imagery, but it gets over-ruled by the novels and images from the Black Library. There will be some discrepancies, but well-reasoned and constructive dialogue will be the basis for determining where we compromise.

Third, all standard rules of the B&C apply. As with other homegrown rules discussions, there is no way that everyone is going to come to an agreement as everyone has their own interpretation. As it stands right now, this project is going to base decisions upon consensus. If a clear consensus can't be determined based on reading the discussions, we'll resort to a poll process. This methodology might change as the project develops.

For the most part, the rules have been finished under 3rd edition terms and need to be tweaked a little to match up with 4th edition modifications. We'll also allow some wiggle room based on the novels.

And expect an add-on project once we finalize all of the rules to convert each of the Primarchs (twice for the traitors) in order to show a mini for the rules. That will come later, though, and will be part of those projects I mentioned above (but won't describe any further ... for now).

I'm not running this project, so please don't misinterpret this guidance as me taking over. As far as I'm concerned, this project has run well enough as a community-based effort and should remain so. However, if anyone has questions or ideas on the basic methodology/intent with this project, feel free to reply in this thread.

[Brother Tyler]

Upon completion, I'd like to see the fruits of this project submitted to the Librarium as an article. It would be really nice if there were some conversions to match the finalized rules for the various primarchs, but that wouldn't be a requirement. If the minis converted by Team North America for GD Baltimore (or was it Chicago?) match up, I'd suggest contacting those artists to see if they'll grant permission for images of their minis to be used, though that is nothing more than a suggestion.

[Arthus]

Im a small time writer, i could take care of the article.
what kind of format should it be in? Just a description of the project or something different?
as for conversions there have been some goign on at home localy so some might be posted up soon!

Also, speaking of article, i have had the idea of using a PDF maker to make a Codex Primarchs.
once the Daemon Primes are done and the Loyalists are "polished" we could make a full blown codex...

Edited by Arthus, 22 August 2007 - 04:10 PM.

[Alpha Justinian]

Personally I think it would be wise to include stats for the Primarch's personal body guards, such as the mournovial (spelling?) and the pheonix guard. Also I think that the Primarchs should be Über strong, as they would only deign to be involved in battles on the new Apocolypse scale (check out the games workshop website, it looks so cool!) or they would lead an elite attack involving very few troops on the Primarch's side, thus making them really expensive makes a lot of sense.

Edited by Alpha Justinian, 19 September 2007 - 05:44 PM.

[Brother Tyler]

I've made a few changes, intending to clear things up a bit. All loyalist versions have the topic description of "The Great Crusade". For the traitors, I've changed the topic descriptors to say that they are traitors instead of daemons and added the topic description of "The Horus Heresy". In addition, each of the traitor Primarch topics has the appropriate mark of Chaos as a topic icon.

As these discussions are finalized, I'll close the topics. Later, we'll consolidate all of the rules into an appropriate thread (or perhaps two threads).

The way I see it, there should be two versions of each Primarch. This will give the loyalists some flexibility, with the traitors being represented as both loyalists and traitors. In addition, those traitors who later ascended to the rank of daemon prince might also be given a third profile - that of their daemon prince status. That's a bit separate from this, though.

Primarch Core Rules

The Great Crusade:

• Alpharius
• Angron
• Corax
• Ferrus Manus
• Fulgrim
• Horus
• Jaghatai Khan
• Konrad Curze
• Leman Russ
• Lion El'Jonson
• Lorgar
• Magnus the Red
• Mortarion
• Perturabo
• Roboute Guilliman
• Rogal Dorn
• Sanguinius
• Vulkan

The Horus Heresy (Daemon Primarchs):

• Traitor Primarch Core Rules
• Alpharius (none)
• Angron
• Fulgrim
• Horus
• Konrad Curze (none)
• Lorgar
• Magnus the Red
• Mortarion
• Perturabo

[Duodecimo]

What happened to converting the primarchs?

[Brother Tyler]

Okay, I'd say that the Apocalypse datafax has established official rules for Angron as a Daemon Primarch, rendering our work here irrelevant.

Now I think we have to continue the discussion about what the rules given for Angron mean for the rest of the Primarchs and how we can apply similar principles to the project at large. That, however, should take place in the two topics about general Primarch and Daemon Primarch trends.

I'll leave this open in case anyone disagrees and thinks that we should forge ahead with the rules we've already created for Angron as a Daemon Primarch.

I have yet to see the GW rules for Angron, but if the statline is close enough to the Angron we have here, we can just use him and form a statline for the other Deamon Primarchs from his. If he is too different though, I think we should continue with our version, who can be used in normal games, and leave the Apocolypse version for Apocolypse battles.

The exchange above brings up a significant issue. This project was initiated in 2002, long before there was even a concept of Apocalypse games. With the release of Apocalypse, players are faced with a slightly different style of play allowing larger armies. Ultimately...

What level of games would the Primarchs be appropriate in?

Even before Apocalypse, many players felt that the Primarchs should only be used in larger games. Apocalypse gives us a streamlined method for this - the basic minimum army size for that game is 3,000 points.

At the very least, the rules for the various Primarchs in Apocalypse should have more than the "standard" rules. The datasheet for Angron gives us some notion, though it is by no means certain that it provides us with a template that GW might consider relevant to the other Primarchs.

So where do we stand with this project? Are we comfortable continuing on our current path, either ignoring the Angron datasheet or modifying our rules for Angron to match that datasheet? Do we want to adjust and shift these rules over to Apocalypse datasheet formats, putting the Primarchs into Apocalypse rather than "standard" games?

I've created the polls to address the various issues we're faced with now that the datasheet for Angron has been released.

[Brother Tyler]

Just a note - I've been holding off on "finalizing" the decision based on the poll until there are at least 30 votes. I've been tempted to stop it anyways since most of the votes are in and we have a couple of clear majorities that won't be affected by having additional votes, but there is one that is still up in the air.

[Brother Tyler]

Okay, we've hit the threshold I wanted to declare a direction.

The Primarch rules we're working on will be adjusted. The rules for Angron based on his datafax provide us with a template that we'll be following (keeping in mind Angron's specialty). We'll be developing these rules with both Apocalypse and standard Warhammer 40,000 in mind.

The rules will largely be consistent, with the Apocalypse datafaxes providing a bit more punch with regard to fielding the Primarchs in those large games. The core elements of the rules for each of the Primarchs, however, will remain consistent in both aspects - no changing profiles, rules, etc. The Warhammer 40,000 versions will essentially be the same as the Apocalypse versions, only without a little bit of that Apocalypse goodness.