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Fabius Bile's New Men


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15 replies to this topic

#1
Black and White

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Points: 100+ models

Formation:
Fabius Bile
Chaos lord
2-5 squads of Big Mutants
3+ Chaos Space marine Squads with Genetic Enhancement


Special Rules:

New Men: Fabius Bile only takes to the field with his finest creations. Any squads with genetic enhancement in the formation automatically count as having rolled +1 Strength and Fearless. Fabius bile's new man is self serving and cruel, and therefore unlikely to be a slave to the dark gods. No Icons may be taken by any unit in the formation.

Super Mutants: Big Mutants in the formation have been enhanced, and have +1 strength and are fearless.

Bile's Finest: The chaos lord represent's one of bile's greatest creations, even when compared to his New Men. The Chaos Lord therefore recieves a +2 strength bonus.

#2
Mulceber

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I think it's definitely a great idea, but I've never heard of these big mutants before...what are their stats like, and how are you going to account for their improved stats points-wise? I think this needs to be further developed before it can be used, just so it will be fair. -Mulceber
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#3
Black and White

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I figure bile has done all sorts of experiments, and they can't always have gone 'right.' The big mutants could be any sort of lab spawned nastiness - big mutants that have gone under 'treatment' a space marine that got tested with an unstable growth hormone... You know the stuff that is sane enough to fight and use as shock troopers. Players who have done bile based LATD armies have done similar things with big mutants and spawn. I guess it's not essential but it gives something more than just bile and a bunch of marines who get an automatic roll.

As far as points go, +2 strength on the lord is worth about 25 points when compared to the old dark blade. +1 strength and fearless is worth around 3 points per. If we discount the auto roll (stops the insane strength, but also eliminates the crappy 1 result - although it's still a benefit) then the break even point for the mutants is at 25. - or half the maximum. Considering big mutants are expensive models to begin with and the formations are sopposed to provide an overall benefit I think this is fair. Of course, it's open to debate.

The buff from strenght 6-7 isnt really a magic buff like 7-8 or 5-6 anyways, it's more for the fearless that it's good IMO. Maybe they should be scrapped or point should be increased. We'll see what other people have to say.

#4
Bannus

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I think the unit is both too large and too stable to represent Bile's experiments.

Even his personal bodyguard self-destructs once in a while.

I think there should be a maximum size for the unit and some additional instability factor (because they are 'mass produced') over and above the the normal problems for Bile's unit.

Edited by bannus, 12 November 2007 - 02:21 PM.

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#5
Mulceber

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Agreed. I think the 3rd edition chaos codex represented the instabilities nicely. Why not implement something like that. It might be good to make it a little smaller, but you have to figure that Fabius Bile would have a rather large bodyguard to protect him from Imperial Assassins and even your odd Chaos Lord who might be pissed at him. -Mulceber
Amo odorem Promethei mane...olfacit ab victoria!

"Harriers for the Cup!" -Commissar Ciaphas Cain, on first hearing the battle-cry of the World Eaters.

As soon as I read the title for this thread I thought, "Dear God, the infidel is going to play Ultramarines."
-Octavulg, in response to the thread "Going with a Despised Chapter"

#6
Black and White

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Alright how about this then:

Formation:

Bile
1 Genitor's Guard
2-6 Chaos Space Marine Squads

Special Rules:
Genitor Guard - The cream of the crop of bile's formation, models in the squad cost +5 points and have +2 S and are Fearless - Basically the 6 roll without the drawback.
Mass Produced Enhanced marines: Mass produced enhanced marines suffer from a variety of traits - some of which are beneficial, many of which are not. - Chaos Space Marine Squads in the formation roll on the following table for free:

1) Splat! - Oops, that went horribly wrong. The Squad suffers an unsustainable mutation or defect which causes them to explode sending fleshy bits everywhere and ruining your labcoat. Good job Mr. Manflayer, better luck next time. - Remove the squad as casualties.
2) Demented - +1 S, Fearless, The squad must pass a leadership test at the start of their turn or do nothing. -1 initiative.
3 - 4) Stable!: +1 S, Fearless
5) Brutish - +1s, Fearless, the squad has the Slow and Purposeful USR. If Double 1's are rolled on the Difficult terrain check, the squad suffers an unstable mutation or defect and loses D6 models.
6) Berzerker Rage - +1S, Fearless. In close combat, the squad gets an extra attack for every 6 rolled to hit. For every 1 Rolled to hit, resolve the attack against the Chaos Marine squad instead. Keep rolling until there are no more 6s.

Point cost to be determined

#7
Bannus

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Genitor Guard - The cream of the crop of bile's formation, models in the squad cost +5 points and have +2 S and are Fearless - Basically the 6 roll without the drawback.

This is the part I don't think makes any sense. If Bile can't keep their mutation stable on a small scale, then a larger scale should be unthinkable.
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#8
Mulceber

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I disagree, Bannus. Bile wouldn't be just creating this unit: more likely than not, he'd create his whole army, and then choose the best of the best to be in his personal retinue. Thus it's perfectly reasonable for his bodyguards to be the best in the army. -Mulceber
Amo odorem Promethei mane...olfacit ab victoria!

"Harriers for the Cup!" -Commissar Ciaphas Cain, on first hearing the battle-cry of the World Eaters.

As soon as I read the title for this thread I thought, "Dear God, the infidel is going to play Ultramarines."
-Octavulg, in response to the thread "Going with a Despised Chapter"

#9
Bannus

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That is the thing - in conventional games of 40K where all he has is his personal retinue (assumably the most 'successful' of his experiments), these Marines are still highly unstable.
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#10
Mulceber

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Good point. Personally I think this is one of the flaws in GW's logic: when they developed Bile on the board for normal games, they wanted to make sure that people would realize that a lot of his experiments are really unstable, so they made his squad unstable, when in reality, his retinue would be composed of the most stable marines he has. -Mulceber
Amo odorem Promethei mane...olfacit ab victoria!

"Harriers for the Cup!" -Commissar Ciaphas Cain, on first hearing the battle-cry of the World Eaters.

As soon as I read the title for this thread I thought, "Dear God, the infidel is going to play Ultramarines."
-Octavulg, in response to the thread "Going with a Despised Chapter"

#11
Bannus

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Maybe they are the most stable Marines he has - scary, huh?
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#12
Mulceber

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If so, then he really needs to give up! :cry: -Mulceber
Amo odorem Promethei mane...olfacit ab victoria!

"Harriers for the Cup!" -Commissar Ciaphas Cain, on first hearing the battle-cry of the World Eaters.

As soon as I read the title for this thread I thought, "Dear God, the infidel is going to play Ultramarines."
-Octavulg, in response to the thread "Going with a Despised Chapter"

#13
Black and White

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In the current fluff, it dosen't say the enhanced marine's form a retinue, it simply says you can enhance any chaos marine squads, which could be experiments for other legions or whatever.

Logistically though, if we're looking at a massive ammount of experimental marines, there have to be at least a few who are better than average. It also cancels out the disadvantage (kind of) of having a 16% chance of each squad in the formation go poof before the game even starts.

What would you propose we include instead of the ubermarines?

#14
Deadjack

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I'd say keep the current rules for the mutation, but maybe let him apply it to a more elite unit for his best and brightest.
Maybe possessed, as they're already fairly random, and are already fearless to create some modicum of balance?

Do you think he kills the unstable and the runts of the litter, or unleashes them? 2 potential units there.

I like the idea of the big mutants as the unstables, representing marines who've giantised and broken their armour, basically becoming sub-humans like the ogryns, but I'd say make them 0-3 or 0-5. I don't see why they need +2 Strength, but whatever works.

What about the opposites- in the same amounts or greater- those that didn't make the cut. Probably start with chaos space marines, but sort of reverse the mutations but make them stable, so S3 and Ld7 (instead of S5/6 and fearless), 12 or 13pts per model and so you'd take them they need something... perhaps they cause -1Ld in all non-fearless units types from either side at 6" (not cumulative, doesn't affect others of the same unit type, probably doesn't affect grots).
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#15
refuse

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Why not allow him to re-roll the results of their abilities.

If you get something you don't like, re-roll, but live with the second as he is tinkering with them.

#16
Lord Humongous

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Good point. Personally I think this is one of the flaws in GW's logic: when they developed Bile on the board for normal games, they wanted to make sure that people would realize that a lot of his experiments are really unstable, so they made his squad unstable, when in reality, his retinue would be composed of the most stable marines he has. -Mulceber


A lot of his experimental results would probably qualify as "mutants", which are covered by the LatD datasheet. (Which also has new rules for Big Mutnats, BTW, so the OP may want to clarify which source is meant.) Some few also probably qualify as chaos spawn...

Also, a lot of Bile's work simply reproduces the process used to create space marines- IE, the result is a bog standard CSM. And its not really clear if the "enhanced mareines" the rules mention are the same as his "new men"- they might be the "bleeding edge" of his experimentation. The "new men" could just be equivalent to normal CSM's, for example, or they could be less than that, but better than normal humans, used as infiltrators, spies, and leaders of rabble; IE, sort of like "super cultists", with no rules given for them because they are more useful outside of combat.
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