Allerka Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 (edited) It's now been over five years since I originally began playing 40K, and created my Lords of Oblivion Chapter. They've changed dramatically over the years in almost every way, except the basic color scheme, which has only changed slightly. When I first made them, they were pretty much a stock vanilla Chapter, their only really distinguishing features being the color scheme which was incredibly complex for a new painter to be following. As time went on, however, I started coming up with more and more fluff, fleshing out notable personalities in the Chapter, the culture of their homeworld, and how that's influenced them, and even bothering to pick a gene-seed for them (Going from "unknown" to "secret 21st primarch" to their current Iron Hands gene-seed, which likely won't change). Now, five years later, I have a fully realized IA article, numerous pieces of story fluff ranging from several paragraphs to the mini-novel "The Hunt for Veck" (Still in progress), dedicated pieces of high-quality artwork of the Chapter, and a half-completed codex I once worked on a couple years ago, trying to make them more distinct. The Chapter's character has essentially become numerous facets of my own personality made manifest, mixed with a little bit of Daggerfall-inspired lore behind the Dremori. As is another of my personality traits, I'm always looking for ways to stand out or make myself more unique. After reading over a lot of the HGR projects undertaken here (Especially the Iron Hands and Salamanders HGR army books), and not being overly satisfied with any of the current SM army books truly capturing my Chapter's character, I've decided to go ahead and give things a shot with possibly developing a HGR codex for them. This project, if I can get enough support for it, will be broken down into several phases, not unlike the Astartes Reform Project. Identify notable fluff characteristics for the Lords of Oblivion that would affect table-top representation of the army. Analyze the current traits used to represent the Chapter, and see if these truly align with the characteristics indentified in step 1, as well as discuss shortcomings in current army books which prohibit me from properly representing my army as it's evolved in the fluff. Propose alternative "traits" or rules which could provide a more "fluff-accurate" representation of the Lords of Oblivion. Analyze these proposed rules, and attempt to balance them properly, so as to allow for a distinctive, but not over/under-powered, army. Steps 3 and 4 will likely be semi-merged as rules are proposed, discussed, and tested. Finalize the proposed codex, write some more spiffy mini-fluff stories, and publish an "official" army book for all to read and use as they desire. Obviously this project will require extensive input from me in all matters of fluff, as a lot of what I have is only available to myself (Though I'll likely make a number of my other pieces available for this project, I'm currently trying to decide what among my stuff I've written over the years I'm going to keep as canon fluff and what to discard. Also, I don't have access to my archives at the moment, they're somewhere on a boat on its way back to the US, and I won't be able to get at it until next month). I will, however, happily answer any questions, provide additional commentary, and generally try to be as helpful as possible. In the meantime, if you're interested in helping out, feel free to read up on what I do have available here at the B&C. Step One: Identifying notable fluff characteristics In a nutshell, the Lords of Oblivion are a Chapter a little over 3,000 years old, with the gene-seed of the Iron Hands. Their homeworld is a feudal world where warfare is constant, and virtues such as honor and duty are valued above anything else. Therefore, the Chapter has an above-average proficiency level in close-combat. They also place a strong emphasis on strength of mind, and undergo extensive mental training to resist negative psyker influence in addition to having an above-average number of psykers of their own (Possibly as a result of the initiation trials triggering numerous otherwise latent psychic powers). The following is a list of all the items of note. I don't expect all of these to get rules, but I wanted to bring them up to be discussed so we could identify which ones would work best, and which are just being redundant. Proficient in close-combat - Even without becoming Space Marines, the humans of Firien are reknowned for their martial prowess, due to living in a near-constant state of war with themselves for the sake of staying ready to fight for the Emperor at any time. Therefore, adding on the training of the Space Marines, the Lords of Oblivion are extremely skilled at close-combat. Stubborn - Combining the strength of will of the Iron Hands with the martial pride of Firien's culture, the Lords of Oblivion are particularly driven to accomplish their goals. This was most evident during the Salvation of Firien campaign, when they steadfastly refused to abandon their homeworld to the daemonic invasion, despite the odds being almost overwhelmingly against them, and with pressure from other Imperial elements constantly growing for them to withdraw and face accounting for their actions during the campaign. Strong in mind - The Lords of Oblivion place strength of mind as important above all other characteristics, for the mightiest gun in the universe is useless if one does not have the will or determination to use it. They also feel lack of mental fortitude is what causes so many humans to turn from the Emperor's light and follow the paths of the heretic and traitor. Their initiation rites include Librarians attempting to violate the minds of aspirants, forcing them to learn to defend themselves from mental attacks. Whether due to this or other unknown reasons, the Lords of Oblivion boast a higher than normal amount of Librarians, and many officers in the Chapter, while not full psykers, and thus unable to become Librarians, have some form of latent powers they can harness. Devastated - The Salvation of Firien campaign (Which took place after the 13th Black Crusade) was the greatest and most desperate battle in the history of the Chapter. Their homeworld was invaded by daemonic legions under the command of K'laernik, a Lord of Change, and supported by numerous elements of Chaos Space Marines and other renegades. The Lords of Oblivion emerged triumphant, but with their numbers and resources devastated. Half the surface of Firien was ravaged, and over 2/3 of the Chapter had fallen in battle. Therefore, while the Chapter attempts to rebuild, they can no longer call upon the resources of a full Chapter. Contempt for the Codex - Prior to the Salvation of Firien, the Lords of Oblivion were a primarily codex-oriented Chapter. However, following its tenets during the campaign saw their Chapter nearly wiped out. The senior leadership of the Chapter, as it rebuilds itself, has begun to consider breaking away from the Codex in certain areas, most notably the Chapter size restrictions, as well as some of the organizational edicts. While the 3rd and 4th Companies, the only two Companies restored to full fighting strength since the Salvation, still resemble Codex Battle Companies, the Chapter as a whole may wind up looking entirely different when brought back to full size. Unique Awards - The Lords of Oblivion have several decorations unique to their Chapter. Among them are the Samurai's Robe and the Tabard of Fortitude. The Samurai's Robe is given to winners of the Commisum Legare, a literary competition used as the Chapter's primary means of recording its history. It is generally considered an unofficial mark of veteran status, due to the difficulty of winning the competition. The Tabard of Fortitude is another decoration given to officers who attain Veteran status without losing any limbs in battle or requiring any kind of bionic augmentation. It is basically considered a mark of a Marine's ability to survive under any conditions, and obviously runs highly counter to their primogenitor's belief in constantly replacing biological parts with bionics. Feel free to discuss. :P Edited September 16, 2008 by Allerka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferrus Manus Posted December 7, 2007 Share Posted December 7, 2007 Its a good idea. My only problem is that if this gets developed then other people will do the same for their DIYs and the place could get clustered with DIY codexs. But hey, ill help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allerka Posted December 8, 2007 Author Share Posted December 8, 2007 Its a good idea. My only problem is that if this gets developed then other people will do the same for their DIYs and the place could get clustered with DIY codexs. But hey, ill help. Ehhh, I'm not too sure about that. The HGR forum has been here for years now, and no one's tried to do a codex for their DIY, as far as I've seen. Plus, it requires magnitudes more effort than just doing an IA, which also isn't easy, as I'm sure you recall. Still, I appreciate the offer to help. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferrus Manus Posted December 8, 2007 Share Posted December 8, 2007 Very true. OKay first ill read your IA in detail to see what i pick up. Then ill analyse the traits from above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferrus Manus Posted December 9, 2007 Share Posted December 9, 2007 (edited) Proficient in close-combat - Even without becoming Space Marines, the humans of Firien are reknowned for their martial prowess, due to living in a near-constant state of war with themselves for the sake of staying ready to fight for the Emperor at any time. Therefore, adding on the training of the Space Marines, the Lords of Oblivion are extremely skilled at close-combat. Okay, maybe increase the points value of the bog standard marine and give them furious charge. The for 1pt maybe they could be given a bolt pistol and close comabt weapon. Stubborn - Combining the strength of will of the Iron Hands with the martial pride of Firien's culture, the Lords of Oblivion are particularly driven to accomplish their goals. This was most evident during the Salvation of Firien campaign, when they steadfastly refused to abandon their homeworld to the daemonic invasion, despite the odds being almost overwhelmingly against them, and with pressure from other Imperial elements constantly growing for them to withdraw and face accounting for their actions during the campaign. Okay again increase the point value of every type of marine by about three points and give them the old DA Stubbron rule. Strong in mind - The Lords of Oblivion place strength of mind as important above all other characteristics, for the mightiest gun in the universe is useless if one does not have the will or determination to use it. They also feel lack of mental fortitude is what causes so many humans to turn from the Emperor's light and follow the paths of the heretic and traitor. Their initiation rites include Librarians attempting to violate the minds of aspirants, forcing them to learn to defend themselves from mental attacks. Whether due to this or other unknown reasons, the Lords of Oblivion boast a higher than normal amount of Librarians, and many officers in the Chapter, while not full psykers, and thus unable to become Librarians, have some form of latent powers they can harness. Not sure about this one ill have a think. Devastated - The Salvation of Firien campaign (Which took place after the 13th Black Crusade) was the greatest and most desperate battle in the history of the Chapter. Their homeworld was invaded by daemonic legions under the command of K'laernik, a Lord of Change, and supported by numerous elements of Chaos Space Marines and other renegades. The Lords of Oblivion emerged triumphant, but with their numbers and resources devastated. Half the surface of Firien was ravaged, and over 2/3 of the Chapter had fallen in battle. Therefore, while the Chapter attempts to rebuild, they can no longer call upon the resources of a full Chapter. okay maybe something like the flesh over steel trait. Contempt for the Codex - Prior to the Salvation of Firien, the Lords of Oblivion were a primarily codex-oriented Chapter. However, following its tenets during the campaign saw their Chapter nearly wiped out. The senior leadership of the Chapter, as it rebuilds itself, has begun to consider breaking away from the Codex in certain areas, most notably the Chapter size restrictions, as well as some of the organizational edicts. While the 3rd and 4th Companies, the only two Companies restored to full fighting strength since the Salvation, still resemble Codex Battle Companies, the Chapter as a whole may wind up looking entirely different when brought back to full size. Not sure again... Unique Awards - The Lords of Oblivion have several decorations unique to their Chapter. Among them are the Samurai's Robe and the Tabard of Fortitude. The Samurai's Robe is given to winners of the Commisum Legare, a literary competition used as the Chapter's primary means of recording its history. It is generally considered an unofficial mark of veteran status, due to the difficulty of winning the competition. The Tabard of Fortitude is another decoration given to officers who attain Veteran status without losing any limbs in battle or requiring any kind of bionic augmentation. It is basically considered a mark of a Marine's ability to survive under any conditions, and obviously runs highly counter to their primogenitor's belief in constantly replacing biological parts with bionics. equipment from the armoury. which only certain character in units have access to. 0-1 limit. Edited December 9, 2007 by Ferrus Manus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black and White Posted December 9, 2007 Share Posted December 9, 2007 I'll assume you want your marines to be compatible with the new era of marine codexes. My comments are in bold. Proficient in close-combat - Even without becoming Space Marines, the humans of Firien are reknowned for their martial prowess, due to living in a near-constant state of war with themselves for the sake of staying ready to fight for the Emperor at any time. Therefore, adding on the training of the Space Marines, the Lords of Oblivion are extremely skilled at close-combat. This could be represented in the army list by allowing your marines to swap their bolter for a close combat weapon Stubborn - Combining the strength of will of the Iron Hands with the martial pride of Firien's culture, the Lords of Oblivion are particularly driven to accomplish their goals. This was most evident during the Salvation of Firien campaign, when they steadfastly refused to abandon their homeworld to the daemonic invasion, despite the odds being almost overwhelmingly against them, and with pressure from other Imperial elements constantly growing for them to withdraw and face accounting for their actions during the campaign. This is also the dark angels thing. If pokehammer 40k dosen't place importance on this kind of ability, it probably shouldnt have a rules embodiment in your codex either. Strong in mind - The Lords of Oblivion place strength of mind as important above all other characteristics, for the mightiest gun in the universe is useless if one does not have the will or determination to use it. They also feel lack of mental fortitude is what causes so many humans to turn from the Emperor's light and follow the paths of the heretic and traitor. Their initiation rites include Librarians attempting to violate the minds of aspirants, forcing them to learn to defend themselves from mental attacks. Whether due to this or other unknown reasons, the Lords of Oblivion boast a higher than normal amount of Librarians, and many officers in the Chapter, while not full psykers, and thus unable to become Librarians, have some form of latent powers they can harness. Sounds like the BT vow. Again, newtype marine codexes do not give blanket army special rules, even to divergent chapters. I mean DA and BA both only have ATSKNF and Combat Squads. Perhaps this could be represented by giving a leadership boost to librarians, or a 5+ save vs. psychic powers on HQ choices. Perhaps both. The appropriate cost would have to be assigned. LD 10 non-special character librarians is a fairly powerful benefit. Devastated - The Salvation of Firien campaign (Which took place after the 13th Black Crusade) was the greatest and most desperate battle in the history of the Chapter. Their homeworld was invaded by daemonic legions under the command of K'laernik, a Lord of Change, and supported by numerous elements of Chaos Space Marines and other renegades. The Lords of Oblivion emerged triumphant, but with their numbers and resources devastated. Half the surface of Firien was ravaged, and over 2/3 of the Chapter had fallen in battle. Therefore, while the Chapter attempts to rebuild, they can no longer call upon the resources of a full Chapter. Contempt for the Codex - Prior to the Salvation of Firien, the Lords of Oblivion were a primarily codex-oriented Chapter. However, following its tenets during the campaign saw their Chapter nearly wiped out. The senior leadership of the Chapter, as it rebuilds itself, has begun to consider breaking away from the Codex in certain areas, most notably the Chapter size restrictions, as well as some of the organizational edicts. While the 3rd and 4th Companies, the only two Companies restored to full fighting strength since the Salvation, still resemble Codex Battle Companies, the Chapter as a whole may wind up looking entirely different when brought back to full size. This one's simple - no combat squads, but tactical, devastator, and assault squads can purchase up to 5 additional models at the appropriate points cost. The lower squad numbers could also tie in to the loss of manpower Unique Awards - The Lords of Oblivion have several decorations unique to their Chapter. Among them are the Samurai's Robe and the Tabard of Fortitude. The Samurai's Robe is given to winners of the Commisum Legare, a literary competition used as the Chapter's primary means of recording its history. It is generally considered an unofficial mark of veteran status, due to the difficulty of winning the competition. The Tabard of Fortitude is another decoration given to officers who attain Veteran status without losing any limbs in battle or requiring any kind of bionic augmentation. It is basically considered a mark of a Marine's ability to survive under any conditions, and obviously runs highly counter to their primogenitor's belief in constantly replacing biological parts with bionics. With the loss of the armoury from jervismarine dexes, there really isn't a place for these in the army list. If they're going to be included, it would have to be as wargear on special characters, or in replacement of the iron halo that comes standard on captains now. The robe one is more of an intellectual award. I don't see being really good at writing poetry having an effect on the battlefield. If it was a reward for tactical brilliance perhaps. The tabard of fortitude could either use the same rules as the admantium mantle, confer a tougness boost, or give the feel no pain USR. Feel free to discuss. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allerka Posted December 9, 2007 Author Share Posted December 9, 2007 You guys are actually kinda jumping ahead to step 3 (Proposing rules to represent the traits). Step 1 is just figuring out which traits to use, but, now that I think about it, it'd be good to discuss possible rules anyway, as obviously some of the traits are more easy to do than others. For which I thank you for your feedback thus far. Upon further reflection, I realize I should have had step 2 come first, i.e. talk about how I currently try to represent the Chapter using current books, and how none of them truly work for me. So, allow me to ramble some more. How the Lords of Oblivion are currently represented At present, I use the standard SM codex to represent the Lords of Oblivion, having them count as a significant divergence Chapter, with the traits Trust Your Battle-Brothers, Suffer Not the Works of Heretics, Eye to Eye, and Flesh over Steel. TYBB is an ideal trait, as that gives them additional versatility in CC, while not pidgeon-holing them into the role like Take The Fight To Them does. I've even now modeled the majority of my army (A full Battle Company plus support elements) to represent this, and I have little desire to go back and re-do 70+ Marines...again. I feel Suffer Not the Works of Heretics has little basis for being in my army. Though I like it, as it also boosts my Devastator Squads, I can find little precedence for allowing it, as it doesn't do anything to truly represent my Chapter as I've envisioned them from a purely fluff-based perspective. I've recently begun to experiment with Cleanse and Purify, but that's mostly for gameplay reasons. There's really little else that works for me. As for drawbacks, Eye to Eye is what I've been using, though Flesh Over Steel can also work. The minor drawbacks is where I really hit my problems. I've been using We Stand Alone, which represents the bulk of Imperial society shunning the Chapter for what they did with the Dremori during the Salvation of Firien, but it still doesn't really work, as the Chapter can still call on some more steadfast allies, such as the Legio Praecursor, and the Terran Imperial Guard from Firien, and it's common practice for the Lords of Oblivion to travel with at least one regiment of Terran Imperial Guard to assist them in their battles. So it still doesn't really work. Die Standing, Have Pride in Your Colors, and especially Have Faith in Suspicion don't work either. Faithful Unto Death and Death Before Dishonor are possibles, though. Now for why the other army books fall short: Black Templars - The vow system is nice, and I like the idea of mixed units with Crusader Squads. However, the lack of Librarians very much eradicates any chance of this codex properly suiting my Chapter. I'm fairly certain there were a couple other issues with it, but I haven't even looked at my copy of the codex in a year and a half, so I can't remember. Dark Angels - While combat squads is nice, and I have no issues with the format of the codex, obviously my Chapter isn't the Dark Angels, and, while a Deathwing-equivalent army could just be passed off as the 1st Company, a Ravenwing army would be impossible by fluff precedence, and there'd be zero representation of the "Proficient in Close-Combat" trait, which is one of the most pivotal traits of my Chapter (Not to mention issues with how ICs work and other problems). Blood Angels - It's a lot of the same as Dark Angels, though not quite as much. The slightly alternate organization would be good to represent the changing organization of the Chapter, too. However, I have no fluff precedence for a Death Company equivalent, and, again, the IC options are too restricting, in my opnion. Space Wolves - They've got True Grit, they've got a funky organization, lots of characterful rules, but they don't have any Assault Squads, I recall an issue with their elite choices, but I forget it off-hand, and they're due to get a new codex sometime within the next year or so. So, they're pretty much out too. Chaos Space Marines - The new codex is quite fabulous to me. Been playing with it for a few months now. And the basic troops choice is wickedly powerful. Ultra-Grit (Bolter, BPs, and CCWs), LD 10, with decent weapons options. And it could also very much represent the Chapter's changing organization, with them deciding to utilize the powers of Oblivion to bolster them (My previous attempt at a new codex was a re-write of the 3.5 edition codex, and, instead of "Marks of Chaos", they had "Aspects of Oblivion"), and the daemons could be summoned Dremori. However, the lack of "loyalist only" vehicles, Chaplains, ATSKNF, and the fact that I already have a CSM army kinda puts me off to that. Anyway, back to my Chapter's traits... While I listed six different traits, I only expect 2-3, MAYBE 4 to get actual rules. My goal for the moment is to figure out which of these traits would be feasible to put into a new codex for the Chapter, without causing a huge imbalance in either direction. Obviously some would be easier to do than others. Here's some additional thoughts on each: Proficient in close-combat - This is one of the major ones, and is, I think, more integral than any of the others to defining them, other than "Strong in Mind". I'm most in favor of giving them True-Grit to represent this, not just because I spent three years modeling 70+ Marines with it, but because, to me, that strikes a great balance between shooting and CC (They're Tactical Squads, not Assault Squads without jump-packs). Though making them Ultra-Grit would be nice, I just don't see this happening with any of the official Loyalist army books, so I'll prolly avoid it. I'm not so sure about Furious Charge, I don't want to make these guys too heavy on the special rules, either. Stubborn -This would be #3 in terms of importance. While I could just raise point costs, and blanket the army with the Stubborn USR, I'd rather not do that. Again, I don't want to overload the codex with special rules. I would rather go with some sort of LD boost, perhaps a higher basic LD for all the troops, as this would be far simpler to do. Strong in mind - This one would probably be the most complex to do. Again, an army-wide special rule probably wouldn't be the way to go. I'd almost make it a wargear option for veteran sergeants, "May take a psychic power from X codex for Y points" sort of thing. Kinda like the terminator armor option in Bannus' IH codex. I'd lean more towards the DA or BA powers, as they're not as powerful. Obviously, they'd be devoid of psychic hoods and force weapons, too, so as to still leave a discernible gap between them and regular Librarians. Devastated - This one can be done pretty easily, too, simply put a 0-1 restriction on certain unit types. Contempt for the Codex - I'm not too sure on this one... Maybe something like the BA codex, with Assault Squads being Troops choices instead. Or, if I'm gonna format this like the current army books, maybe move Scouts "back" into Troops, to represent the large number of new Scouts being trained to replace their losses? The Lords of Oblivion had a Scout Company of nearly 300 before the Salvation of Firien anyway, so... Otherwise, I can't really think of anything that's not too outlandish. I might just fore-go this trait, and say the Chapter only changes by building itself to more than the regular thousand Marines. Unique Awards -This one, I'm not too worried about making rules for it, either. It's more just a fluffy thing, anyway. I used to have a rule for the Samurai's Robe, it basically let you give one member of a squad a robe at +15 points, and they gained +1 I. I'm not gonna mess around with that, though, and I think we can remove this trait from the discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allerka Posted December 12, 2007 Author Share Posted December 12, 2007 (edited) See below in this thread for the latest version of the list. Alright, after about six hours of work, I've put together some trial rules. Man, making one of these lists ain't easy. The format is based on the DA/BA books, and uses them as a baseline for points values and options. Here's a breakdown of how this list would differ from them: [list] [*]Psychic Powers - ICs and Veteran Sergeants have the ability to take psychic powers, almost like a piece of wargear. They do not, however, get force weapons or psychic hoods, those are still reserved for actual Librarians. Their selection is limited to the weakest of the powers available between the three army books, as well. They also get a -1 LD penalty for psychic tests to represent them not being quite as strong as proper Librarians. [*]Limited choices - Most vehicle options are restricted, representing the lack of resources. Scouts are also in the Troops section, rather than Elites, to represent the Chapter's large number of Scouts being rapidly trained to replace their heavy losses. [*]Extra skills - Captains, Librarians, and Veteran Squads gained Stubborn, to help represent the improved leadership/dedication of the Chapter. I had thought about a universal LD boost, but that would eliminate the need for Rites of Battle, and Stubborn across the army would raise the basic cost of units even further. All units except Scouts and Assault Squads also receive True-Grit, and their points costs have been raised by essentially 2 points a model to reflect this, and ICs get a 5-point increase to account for both Stubborn and True-Grit. [*]0-1 limit on Command Squad. Aside from the fact that this seems fluffy, it's to balance the ability of the squad to take up to ten Marines again. As explained in Bannus' codex redux proposal, 5-man squads just have too low of a survivability to be viable. A friend raised concerns that the ability to have four PWs plus whatever the IC has would make it viable anyway, hence the 5-man limit, to which I countered that the points cost of such a unit would make it inhibitive anyway, and a 0-1 limit would ensure an army would not be overusing it. [/list] If I have any wording issues or grammatical/spelling errors, please let me know. And, of course, feedback on the rules themselves. [skullheaderhalf=086300] +++LORDS OF OBLIVION ARMY LIST+++ +SPECIAL RULES+ Strong in Mind: The Lords of Oblivion place strength of mind above all other virtues, for the mightiest gun in the universe is useless if there is no one with the will or resolve to pull the trigger. For reasons unknown to those outside the Chapter, the Lords of Oblivion can call upon more Librarians than normal. Many officers within the Chapter are also psykers in their own regard, having decades of combat experience to refine their latent powers into something usuable. All Lords of Oblivion Independent Characters and Veteran Sergeants may, in addition to their normal wargear options, take a psychic power. The powers they may choose from are listed below, and found in either Codex: Space Marines or Codex: Dark Angels. Storm of the Emperor's Wrath Might of Heroes Force Barrier Hellfire Note that these officers get ONLY a psychic power. They do not receive a force weapon and psychic hood like Librarians do. They also receive a -1 LD penalty when taking psychic tests. Devastated: The Lords of Oblivion suffered horrendous losses in the Salvation of Firien campaign. Even now, several years later, they are still in the process of rebuilding their Chapter. However, the demands of a galaxy at war mean they must continue to fight under-strength, unable to call upon the resources of a full Chapter. May only take 0-1 choices in an army from the following list: Bike Squadron Attack Bike Squadron Land Speeder Squadron May only take 0-2 choices in an army from the following list: Predator Whirlwind Vindicator Land Raider Land Raider Crusader +HQ+[/skullheaderhalf] Company Captain______________________________________________ 105 points Profile: Same as BA Company Captain Unit Type: Infantry Wargear: Power armor Bolter or bolt pistol Frag grenades Krak grenades Iron halo Chainsword Special Rules: Stubborn Independent Character Rites of Battle True-Grit Options: Replace bolter or bolt pistol with a plasma pistol for + 15 points. Replace chainsword with one of the following: a power weapon for +15 points. a power fist or lightning claw for +25 points a pair of lightning claws or a thunder hammer for +30 points [*]May take one of the following: a stormbolter for +5 points combi-weapon for +10 points [*]May take meltabombs for +5 points [*]May take a psychic power for +25 points [*]May take a jump pack for +20 points or a Space Marine Bike for +30 points. [*]Replace all other wargear with Terminator armor, storm bolter and power weapon or power fist for +25 points. A Company Captain in Terminator Armor may exchange his storm bolter and power weapon for a thunder hammer and storm shield or a pair of lightning claws at no extra cost. Lords of Oblivion Librarian_______________________________________________ 125 points Profile: Same as BA Librarian Unit Type: Infantry Wargear: Power armor Bolter or bolt pistol Frag grenades Krak grenades Psychic Hood Force weapon Special Rules: Stubborn Independent Character True-Grit Options: Replace bolter with a plasma pistol for + 15 points. May take one of the following: a stormbolter for +5 points combi-weapon for +10 points [*]May take meltabombs for +5 points. [*]May take a jump pack for +20 points or Space Marine Bike for +30 points. [*]Replace all other wargear with Terminator armor, storm bolter, force weapon and psychic hood for +25 points. May take one of the psychic powers listed in Codex: Space Marines Chaplain _____________________________________________________ 105 points Profile: Same as BA Chaplain Unit Type: Infantry Wargear: Power armor Bolter or bolt pistol Frag grenades Krak grenades Crozius Arcanum Rosarius Special Rules: Honor of the Chapter Litanies of Hate Independent Character True-Grit Options: Replace bolter or bolt pistol with a plasma pistol for +15 points. May replace bolter with one of the following: a stormbolter for +5 points combi-weapon for +10 points [*]May take meltabombs for +5 points. [*]May take a jump-pack for +20 points OR a Space Marine bike for +30 points. [*]May take a psychic power for +25 points. 0-1: Command Squad_________________________________________ 110 points The Command Squad does not use up any Force Organization Chart selections but is otherwise treated as a separate HQ unit. Profile: As DA Company Veterans Unit Composition: 5 Veteran Space Marines Unit Type: Infantry Wargear: Power armor Bolter Frag grenades Krak Grenades Chainsword Special Rules: ATSKNF True-Grit Transport: Command Squads may select a dedicated transport vehicle. Options: The Squad may include up to five additional Veterans for +20 points per model. Up to two Veterans may replace their bolter with a plasma pistol for +15 points per model. Up to two Veterans may replace their chainsword with a power weapon for +15 points per model or a power fist for +25 points per model. Up to two Veterans may replace their bolter with a flamer for +5 points per model, a melta-gun for +10 points per model, or a plasma gun for +15 points per model. One Veteran may be upgraded to a Tech-Adept, replacing his power armor with artificer armor and his chainsword with a power weapon for +30 points. Tech-Adepts have the Blessing of the Omnissiah special rule. One Veteran may be upgraded to an Apothecary equipped with a narthecium/reductor for +20 points. One Veteran may be upgraded to a Standard Bearer carrying a Company Standard for +10 points. Any Veteran may take meltabombs for +5 points per model. For every Company Captain in the army, one Command Squad may upgrade one Veteran to a Company Champion, by replacing his chainsword with a power weapon and giving him a combat shield for +25 points. If there is a Chaplain in the army, the Command Squad may upgrade its Company Standard to a Sacred Standard for +5 points. The squad may replace all other wargear with Terminator Armor, storm bolter and power weapon or power fist for +25 points per model. Any Veteran in Terminator armor may upgrade the power fist to a chainfist for +5 points. If the squad selects Terminator armor as an option, then they may be held in Reserve and may use the Deep Strike special rule. +ELITE+ Lords of Oblivion Veteran Squad ___________________________________________115 points Profile: As DA Veterans Unit Composition: 1 Veteran Sergeant 4 Veteran Space Marines Unit Type: Infantry Wargear: Power armor Bolter or bolt pistol Frag grenades Krak Grenades Chainsword Special Rules: ATSKNF Combat Squads True-Grit Stubborn Transport: Veteran Squads may select a dedicated transport vehicle. Options: The Squad may include five additional Veterans for +115 points. Any Veteran in power armor may take a combat shield for +5 point per model or a storm shield for +10 points per model. Any Veteran in power armor may take meltabombs for +5 points per model. One Veteran may replace his bolter or chainsword with a flamer for +5 points, a melta-gun for +10 points or a plasma gun for +15 points. One Veteran may replace his bolter with a heavy bolter or missile launcher or multi-melta for +10 points, or a plasma cannon or lascannon for +20 points. Up to three Veterans may replace their bolter, bolt pistol, or chainsword with one weapon chosen from the following list: Storm bolter for +5 points per model. Combi-weapon for +10 points per model. Power weapon or plasma pistol for +15 points per model. Power fist or single lightning claw for +25 points per model. Pair of lightning claws or a thunder hammer for +30 points per model. [*]The Veteran Sergeant may select a psychic power for +25 points. Dreadnought ___________________________________ 125 points Profile: As Dreadnought Unit type: Walker Wargear: Assault cannon Dreadnought close combat weapon (with built-in storm bolter) Smoke launchers Searchlight Options: Upgrade to a Venerable Dreadnought for +20 points. Replace storm bolter with heavy flamer for +5 points. Replace assault cannon with a multi-melta, a plasma cannon or twin-linked autocannon at no additional cost in points or a twin-linked lascannon for +20 points. Take extra armor for +15 points. Transport: A Dreadnought may select a Drop Pod as a dedicated transport. Lords of Oblivion Terminator Squad ___________________________________________200 points Profile: As BA Terminators Unit Composition: 1 Veteran Sergeant 4 Veteran Space Marines Unit Type: Infantry Wargear: Terminator Armor Storm Bolter and Power Fist (Sergeant has power sword) Special Rules: ATSKNF Transport: Terminator Squads may select a Land Raider or Drop Pod as a dedicated transport vehicle. Options: Any model may replace its power fist or power sword with a chainfist for +5 points per model. The entire squad may replace their weapons with a pair of lightning claws or a thunder hammer and storm shield.OR One Terminator may take a Cyclone Missile Launcher for +20 points, or replace his storm bolter with a heavy flamer for +5 points, or with an assault cannon for +30 points. The Veteran Sergeant may select a psychic power for +25 points. Techmarine _____________________________________________________ 75 points One Techmarine may be taken for each vehicle chosen from the Elites or Heavy Support sections of the army list (Not counting dedicated transports). The Techmarine does not use up any FOC selections but is otherwise treated as a separate Elites unit. Profile: Same as BA Techmarine Unit Type: Infantry Wargear: Artificer armor Bolter or bolt pistol Frag grenades Krak grenades Power weapon Servo-arm Special Rules: ATSKNF Blessing of the Omnissiah Options: Replace bolter or bolt pistol with a plasma pistol for + 15 points. May replace Servo-arm with a Servo-harness for +25 points. May replace bolter with one of the following: a stormbolter for +5 points combi-weapon for +10 points May take meltabombs for +5 points. [*]The Techmarine may be accompanied by up to four Servitors armed with a servo-arm and close [*]combat weapon for +25 points per model. Any Servitor may replace its servo-arm with a heavy [*]bolter or multi-melta for free or a plasma cannon for +10 points per model. Transport: A Techmarine may select a dedicated transport vehicle. +TROOPS+ Lords of Oblivion Tactical Squad ___________________________________________100 points Profile: As Space Marines Unit Composition: 1 Veteran Sergeant 4 Space Marines Unit Type: Infantry Wargear: Power armor Bolter Frag grenades Krak Grenades Chainsword Special Rules: ATSKNF Combat Squads True-Grit Transport: Tactical Squads may select a dedicated transport vehicle. Options: The squad may include five additional Space Marines for +85 points. The Veteran Sergeant may replace his bolter with a plasma pistol for +15 points. The Veteran Sergeant may replace his chainsword with a power weapon for +15 points or a powerfist for +25 points. The Veteran Sergeant may take meltabombs for +5 points. One Space Marine may replace his bolter with a flamer for +5 points or a melta-gun for +10 points or a plasma gun for +15 points. If the squad numbers ten models, then one Space Marine may replace his bolter with a heavy bolter, multi-melta or missile launcher for +10 points or with a plasma cannon for +15 points or with a lascannon for +20 points. The Veteran Sergeant may take a psychic power for +25 points. Scout Squad _____________________________________________________ 80 points Profile: As DA Scouts Unit Composition: 1 Scout Sergeant 4 Scouts Unit Type: Infantry Wargear: Scout armor Bolt pistol Frag grenades Krak grenades Bolter, shotgun, chainsword or combat blade Special Rules: ATSKNF Combat Squads Infiltrate Move Through Cover Options: The squad may include five additional Scouts for +65 points. One Scout may replace his bolter with a heavy bolter for +15 points or a missile launcher for +20 points. The Sergeant may replace his bolt pistol with a plasma pistol for +15 points. The Sergeant may replace his chainsword with a power weapon for +15 points or a power fist for +25 points. The Sergeant may take meltabombs for +5 points. Any Scout may replace his bolter with a sniper rifle for +5 points per model. Transport: Scout Squads may select a Drop Pod as a dedicated transport vehicle. +FAST ATTACK+ Assault Squad ____________________________________________________ 125 points Profile: As DA Assault Squad Unit Composition: 1 Veteran Sergeant 4 Space Marines Unit Type: Jump Infantry Wargear: Power armor Bolt pistol Frag grenades Krak grenades Chainsword Special Rules: Combat Squads ATSKNF Deep Strike Transport: Assault Squads may remove their jump packs to count as Infantry and then may select a Rhino or Drop Pod as a dedicated transport vehicle at no additional cost. Options: The squad may include five additional Space Marines for +110 points. Up to two Space Marines may replace their bolt pistol with a plasma pistol for +15 points. The Veteran Sergeant may replace his bolt pistol with a plasma pistol for +15 points. The Veteran Sergeant may replace his chainsword with a power weapon for +15 points or with a powerfist for +25 points. The Veteran Sergeant may take meltabombs for +5 points. The Veteran Sergeant may take a combat shield for +10 points. The Veteran Sergeant may take a psychic power for +25 points. Bike Squadron ____________________________________________________ 110 points Profile: As BA Bike Squadron Unit Composition: 1 Veteran Sergeant 2 Space Marine Bikers Unit Type: Bike Wargear: Power armor Bolt pistol or chainsword Frag grenades Krak grenades Space Marine Bike with twin-linked bolters Special Rules: ATSKNF Options: The squadron may include up to two more Space Marine Bikers for +30 points each. Up to two Space Marine Bikers may take a flamer for +5 points per model, a melta-gun for +10 points per model or a plasma gun for +15 points per model. The Veteran Sergeant may replace his bolt pistol with a plasma pistol for +15 points. The Veteran Sergeant may take a power weapon for +15 points or a powerfist for +25 points. The Veteran Sergeant may take meltabombs for +5 points. The Veteran Sergeant may take a psychic power for +25 points. The squadron may include one Attack Bike with power armor, bolt pistol, frag grenades,krak grenades, twin-linked bolters, and heavy bolter or multi-melta for +50 points. Attack Bike Squadron_______________________________________________50 points Profile: As BA Attack Bike Unit Composition: 1 Attack Bike Unit Type: Bike Wargear: Power armor Bolt pistol Frag grenades Krak grenades Space Marine Attack Bike with twin-linked bolters and a heavy bolter or a multi-melta Special Rules: ATSKNF Options: The squadron may include up to two more Space Marine Attack Bikes for +50 points each. Land Speeder Squadron ____________________________________________ 65 points Profile: As BA Speeder Squadron Unit Composition: 1 Land Speeder Unit Type: Vehicle Squadron Wargear: Heavy bolter or multi-melta Options: The squadron may include up to two more Land Speeders for +65 points each. One Land Speeder may be given a Typhoon missile launcher for +10 points. Up to two Land Speeder not equipped with a Typhoon missile launcher may be given an assault cannon for +35 points per model or a heavy flamer for +10 points per model. +HEAVY SUPPORT+ Lords of Oblivion Devastator Squad ________________________________________ 100 points Profile: As Space Marines Unit Composition: 1 Veteran Sergeant 4 Space Marines Unit Type: Infantry Wargear: Power armor Bolter Frag grenades Krak grenades Chainsword Special Rules: ATSKNF Combat Squads True-Grit Transport: Devastator Squads may select a dedicated transport vehicle. Options: The squad may include five additional Space Marines for +75 points. The Veteran Sergeant may replace his bolt pistol with a plasma pistol for +15 points. The Veteran Sergeant may replace his bolter or bolt pistol with a power weapon for +15 points or a powerfist for +25 points. The Veteran Sergeant may take meltabombs for +5 points. Up to four Space Marines may replace their bolter with a weapon from the following list: a heavy bolter or multi-melta for +15 points a missile launcher for +20 points a plasma cannon for +25 points a lascannon for +35 points Lords of Oblivion Land Raider ________________________________________ 250 points Profile: As DA Land Raider Special Rules: Power of the Machine Spirit Assault Vehicle Wargear: Twin-linked heavy bolter Two twin-linked lascannons Smoke launchers Searchlight Options: Take a pintle-mounted storm bolter for +5 points. Take a hunter-killer missile for +15 points. Take extra armor for +15 points. Transport Capacity: Ten models Models in Terminator armor count as two models. Lords of Oblivion Land Raider Crusader ________________________________________ 250 points Profile: As DA Land Raider Crusader Special Rules: Power of the Machine Spirit Assault Vehicle Wargear: Twin-linked Assault Cannon Two Hurricane Bolters Multi-Melta Frag Assault Launchers Smoke launchers Searchlight Options: Take a pintle-mounted storm bolter for +5 points. Take a hunter-killer missile for +15 points. Take extra armor for +15 points. Transport Capacity: Sixteen models Models in Terminator armor count as two models. Lords of Oblivion Predator _______________________________________________ 70 points Profile: As DA Predator Wargear: Autocannon Smoke launchers Searchlight Options: Take a pintle-mounted storm bolter for +5 points. Take a hunter-killer missile for +15 points. Take extra armor for +15 points. Take a dozer blade for +5 points. Replace autocannon with twin-linked lascannon for +35 points. Take side sponsons with heavy bolters for +25 points or with lascannons for +60 points. Lords of Oblivion Whirlwind ______________________________________________ 85 points Profile: As DA Whirlwind. Wargear: Whirlwind missile launcher Smoke launchers Searchlight Options: Take a pintle-mounted storm bolter for +5 points. Take a hunter-killer missile for +15 points. Take extra armor for +15 points. Take a dozer blade for +5 points. Lords of Oblivion Vindicator _______________________________________________ 125 points Profile: As DA Vindicator Wargear: Demolisher cannon Storm bolter Smoke launchers Searchlight Options: Take a pintle-mounted storm bolter for +5 points. Take a hunter-killer missile for +15 points. Take extra armor for +15 points. Take a dozer blade for +5 points. +DEDICATED TRANSPORT VEHICLES+ Lords of Oblivion Rhino ___________________________________________________ 35 points Profile: As DA Rhino Special Rules: Repair Wargear: Storm bolter Smoke launchers Searchlight Options: Take a pintle-mounted storm bolter for +5 points. Take a hunter-killer missile for +15 points. Take extra armor for +15 points. Take a dozer blade for +5 points. Transport Capacity: Ten models. May not carry models in Terminator armor. Lords of Oblivion Razorback ______________________________________________ 55 points Profile: As DA Razorback. Wargear: Twin-linked heavy bolter Smoke launchers Searchlight Options: Take a pintle-mounted storm bolter for +5 points. Take a hunter-killer missile for +15 points. Take extra armor for +15 points. Take a dozer blade for +5 points. Replace twin-linked heavy bolter with a twin-linked lascannon for +30 points. Transport Capacity: Six models. May not carry models in Terminator armor. Drop Pod _________________________________________________________ 50 points Profile: As DA Drop Pod Wargear: Storm bolter Special Rules: Inertial guidance System Immobile Transport Capacity: Ten models. Models in Terminator armor count as two models. May transport a Dreadnought, which counts as ten models. +SPECIAL CHARACTERS+ Forthcoming. Edited December 29, 2007 by Allerka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allerka Posted December 18, 2007 Author Share Posted December 18, 2007 Whipped up some trial rules for special characters. I've got the Master Chaplain, Chief Librarian, and Captain Tiburin, I think they give a good assortment of usable characters, and are fairly distinct from each other. +SPECIAL CHARACTERS+ Master Chaplain Walker______________________________________________________ 160 points Profile: As DA Interrogator-Chaplain with +1 A Unit type: Bike Individual: An army can only include one Master Chaplain Walker Wargear: Frag Grenades Melta-Bombs Bolt Pistol Master-Crafted Crozius Arcanum Rosarius Power Armor Space Marine Bike Options: None Special Rules: Independent Character Honor of the Chapter Litanies of Hate Rider of the Storm Rider of the Storm: Chaplain Walker is a master of riding his bike, able to navigate dangerous obstacles and perform stunts of daring far beyond what most riders are capable of, even in combat conditions. Chaplain Walker may be attached to a Bike Squad (Which does not have an Attack Bike in it) at the beginning of the game, and both are held in reserve as a single unit, and deployed using the rules for Deep Strike. OR Has the Skilled Rider rule, and confers it to any unit he joins. I can't decide which of the two to use. The second one is simpler, I think, but the first one is more in line with the reduced special rules, not to mention the idea behind it (Bikes dropping down from a Thunderhawk ala Cloud from FF7) is just sweet. Chief Librarian Filinus____________________________________________________________ 185 points Profile: As Ezekiel from C: DA Unit type: Infantry Individual: An army can only include one Chief Librarian Filinus Wargear: Frag Grenades Krak Grenades Bolter Force Weapon Psychic Hood Artificier Armor Options: None Special Rules: Independent Character True-Grit Essence of Oblivion Steeled Resolve Essence of Oblivion: Librarian Filinus is chief among psykers in a Chapter reknowned for its Libriarians. He is one of the only Lords of Oblivion to have traveled to Oblivion itself, and learned the secrets of the Dremori. His psychic powers are virtually unrivaled as he taps into energies far beyond the comprehension of most mortals. Librarian Filinus has the following psychic powers from Codex: Space Marines: Veil of Time, Votex of Doom, and Fear of the Darkness. In addition, he may use up to two powers (including his force weapon) per player turn. Steeled Resolve: The Librarians of the Lords of Oblivion are charged with safeguarding their fellow Marines from psychic intrusion from enemy forces. They are also capable of bolstering the determination of the Lords of Oblivion with psychic hymns, fueling their resolve. Filinus is able to project this aura at an even greater range than most other Librarians. Filinus, and all units with at least one model within 12" of him, are Stubborn. Captain Tiburin__________________________________________________________________ 150 points Profile: As BA Captain with +1 A Unit Type: Infantry Individual: An army can only include one Captain Tiburin Wargear: Frag Grenades Krak Grenades Artificier Armor Iron Halo Claws of Nef'arien Options: None Special Rules: Independent Character Stubborn Rites of Battle Claws of Nef'arien: During his initiation trials, Tiburin was sent to the southern deserts of Yuran to survive the harsh wilderness there. The Dremori are capable of knowing when humans are bound for great destinies, and will sometimes lend their assisstance. As the young Tiburin made his way through the desert, he was attacked by the Dragon Lord Nef'arien, who spoke to Tiburin of his destiny, and how, if he could earn them, Nef'arien's claws could help him. Undaunted by the sheer size of the creature, Tiburin managed to successfully kill the Dragon Lord, and took his claws to use as his own weapons. The Claws of Nef'arien count as a pair of master-crafted Lightning Claws which confer +1 Strength. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferrus Manus Posted December 22, 2007 Share Posted December 22, 2007 For the chaplain use the second rule much simplier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allerka Posted December 23, 2007 Author Share Posted December 23, 2007 For the chaplain use the second rule much simplier. Ehh, I'm not so sure. The first basically means he gets to Deep Strike with a unit of bikers. The second one confers a USR no other Space Marine force gets, baring one trait in the vanilla codex. To me, it seems like it'd be simpler to have the first one, as it utilizes a commonly used rule (Deep Strike), as opposed to a rarely used one (Skilled Rider). Other than that, though, do you have any thoughts on anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigismund Himself Posted December 23, 2007 Share Posted December 23, 2007 As a small note, all IC have skilled rider. Check your BBB ;) Personally, I think the Deep Striking idea is kind of silly (though the FF7 reference almost made me give in). Perhaps something like the Wolf Scouts 'Behind Enemy Lines' Special rule? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allerka Posted December 23, 2007 Author Share Posted December 23, 2007 Yes, I'm aware all ICs have Skilled Rider. But they don't, by default, confer it to anyone else, and lose it if they join a unit. My proposed rule here was he keeps it, and confers it to any unit he joins. This, however, doesn't really stick out to me as much as my original idea of him leading a squad riding out from a REALLY low-flying Thunderhawk, essentially. If we were to use something else entirely, I'm not too sure on what to use. "Behind Enemy Lines" doesn't make much sense to me, since we're assuming a unit of fully-armored Space Marines riding bikes were able to infiltrate through the enemy force. Not to mention it's an entirely new rule of sorts, rather than an addition of one that already exists between the vanilla 'dex and the BBB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigismund Himself Posted December 23, 2007 Share Posted December 23, 2007 It represents the fact that they can ride through the rest of the enemy's forces around the battle, fast enough to get in the enemy's rear. I'll take a look through the BBB and C:SM for some rules that could be used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allerka Posted December 23, 2007 Author Share Posted December 23, 2007 Hmm, that makes a little more sense when you put it like that... Alright, let's see if we can come up with anything else, otherwise I'll just go with option #2 (Skilled Rider to him and his unit). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harveydent Posted December 23, 2007 Share Posted December 23, 2007 I'm not quite clear on what psychic powers are available to sergeants. Can they just pick any C:SM psychic power for +25 points? I'm kinda excited about the prospect of a loyalist psyker-based marine force. This will require a lot of testing to balance out the higher frequency of psychic power usage... but it has the potential to be really cool. (very much like the new 1ksons from C:CSM 4E). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allerka Posted December 24, 2007 Author Share Posted December 24, 2007 The psychic powers are listed in the special rules section. They can only pick a few of them, and it's only the less powerful ones (i.e. Storm of the Emperor's Wrath, Might of Heroes, Force Barrier, and Hellfire). I didn't want to give them any of the expensive powers from C:SM, obviously, wouldn't want an army of FotD-inducing psykers running around and such. :P My selection reasoning behind them were, Storm is the standard SM power, and has been since 3rd edition. MoH is used in the BA 'dex, so it's within the "standard" GW has been trying to set with SM psykers, and Force Barrier and Hellfire are used in the DA codex. The other ones, I felt were either too powerful or too unique to that Chapter. And yes, I'm hoping this turns out to be something pretty cool, too. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigismund Himself Posted December 24, 2007 Share Posted December 24, 2007 The only two skills I found appropriate for the Chaplain's squad using is Furious Charge and/or Hit and Run. I await with interest to see what you do with this codex :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allerka Posted December 24, 2007 Author Share Posted December 24, 2007 Hmmm, Hit and Run is good. That definitely works, I think. We'll set it for that, then. Unfortunately, I can't get any playtesting down for the next couple months, but I'd still appreciate any additional feedback you guys might have regarding the balance or viability of the list. Thanks for your help thus far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harveydent Posted December 25, 2007 Share Posted December 25, 2007 i think i would be hard pressed to pay +25 points for those psychic powers. i would prefer powers that were tailor-made for the list, and specially developed for squad leaders (because the veteran sgt. psychic powers are the thing that's most appealing). characters could get the ones you have listed now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allerka Posted December 25, 2007 Author Share Posted December 25, 2007 I'd prefer to keep it as one list for everyone, for simplicity's sake. However, what kind of powers would you suggest? Also, what if I lowered the cost of the powers instead, say to 15 or 20 points? I see all but Force Barrier being desirable for Vet. SGTs, as they're all relatively useful, especially Might of Heroes and Hellfire. And Force Barrier would have obvious appeal for characters. I could certainly be wrong all that, of course. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harveydent Posted December 25, 2007 Share Posted December 25, 2007 well, there are tons of imperial psychic powers available. from a shooting perspective, the only power that would be too powerful for a lot of models to have would be Fury of the Ancients. this is mainly because of its unlimited range as a shooting power. this one should be reserved for independent characters. some powers are only useful for ind.characters, like Force Barrier. lots of these are either low-powered ranged attacks (Storm of the Emperor's Wrath or Scourging, Vortex of Doom) or high-powered short-range abilities like Fear of the Darkness. aside from Fury, all of these abilities could be given a points cost anywhere from 5 to 25 points (maybe 30). i know many people would have an adverse reaction to giving Fear of the Darkness to lots of models, but i wouldn't want to eliminate it as an option too soon. i think the only way it would be overpowered is with multiple infiltrating squads. you can currently get 4x FotD with C:SM - 2 infiltrating command squads, each with 2 librarians, but with this army you could have 2 ind.characters with bikes or jump packs as well as 3 scout squads. it would have to be a power with a significantly higher cost. i'm putting 2 costs next to each power. the first is for ind.characters and the second is for veteran models. if a power has one cost, that means it's only available to an ind.character. here's a list (i removed a few powers from the list that wouldn't be appropriate because they're for specific characters, or factions, or they were IG-specific) of the available characters: fury of the ancients - 15 veil of time - 20/20 fear of the darkness - 10/15 ** storm of the emperor's wrath - 5/10 vortex of doom - 15/25 might of heroes - 15/25 force barrier - 15 hellfire - 15/15 hammerhand - 5/10 holocoaust - 20/15 scourging - 20/15 word of the emperor - 10/10 divine pronouncement - 30/20 his will be done - 20/15 purgatus - 15/10 ideally there would be a single points cost for each power, but i think that would come later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allerka Posted December 26, 2007 Author Share Posted December 26, 2007 Unfortunately, I don't have access to the DH/WH army lists at this time, so I can't reference the psychic powers listed in there. I had been thinking about them. Would they be viable, though? I know the DH powers are very anti-Chaos in focus, and I would imagine the WH are much the same, and I don't really want to just give them a bunch of anti-daemonic powers. Also, I don't want to force a player who wants to use this list to carry around 3-4 different army books just to have the rules for the different psychic powers available. While the DH/WH powers are roughly on the scale as C: SM, it seems less likely a typical SM player would have those army books, whereas they would be more likely to have a copy of C: DA for the additional powers. That's my impression, anyway. Having a list at the front with different costs pretty much brings us back to having an armory, too, just for psychic powers instead of wargear. I'm in favor of expanding the list of available powers by 1-2 more, but I'd keep the cost in the individual unit entry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harveydent Posted December 26, 2007 Share Posted December 26, 2007 Unfortunately, I don't have access to the DH/WH army lists at this time, so I can't reference the psychic powers listed in there. I had been thinking about them. Would they be viable, though? I know the DH powers are very anti-Chaos in focus, and I would imagine the WH are much the same, and I don't really want to just give them a bunch of anti-daemonic powers. i actually removed all the anti-daemon and anti-psyker powers. here's a quick description of the powers remaining: hammerhand - 5/10 - used in combat before user's attacks. makes the user's close combat attacks double strength, but doesn't ignore saves or change initiative. can't be combined with other close combat weapon abilities. counts as two hand weapons. holocaust - 20/15 - in close combat, at initiative 1, place a S5 ordinance template touching user. regular armor saves apply. wounds affect combat result. scourging - 20/15 - used instead of shooting. range 18" S5 AP5 assault d6. ignores invulnerable saves. word of the emperor - 10/10 - used at start of opponent's assault phase. enemy units must pass a LD test (if possible) to assault the psyker or his unit. divine pronouncement - 30/20 - used instead of shooting. cause a unit to take a morale check, modified by the difference between the user's LD and the unit's LD. failed tests cause the unit to break and fall back as normal. his will be done - 20/15 - used in assault before making attacks. wounds inflicted by the psyker count double for combat results. purgatus - 15/10 - used instead of shooting. user targets an ind.characer within 24". both roll a d6 and add LD of models. if target's total is lower, his LD is reduced by 3 for the remainder of the battle. can only affect a character once. (i like all these except purgatus because it's the least useful due to the targeting of ind.character) Also, I don't want to force a player who wants to use this list to carry around 3-4 different army books just to have the rules for the different psychic powers available. While the DH/WH powers are roughly on the scale as C: SM, it seems less likely a typical SM player would have those army books, whereas they would be more likely to have a copy of C: DA for the additional powers. That's my impression, anyway. all psychic powers available to an army would be included in that army's codex. if this is an army that has a larger # of psykers, then it stands to reason (much like the 4th ed C:CSM) that this army should have a greater # of psychic powers.... and that those powers should be somewhat different from those listed in just the available SM books. Having a list at the front with different costs pretty much brings us back to having an armory, too, just for psychic powers instead of wargear. I'm in favor of expanding the list of available powers by 1-2 more, but I'd keep the cost in the individual unit entry. if you're going to have a greater list of psychic powers, then you're going to need a 'psychic armory' much like in C:CSM. it's just a matter of figuring out how you want models to access that 'psychic armory.' should they purchase powers? should they have a higher base cost and be able to pick 1 power for free? should they come with one base power and be able to upgrade to another? should certain units come with specific powers and be able to upgrade to others? here's a set of suggestions (i narrowed down the selection of powers). the first power is what the model/unit would begin with, and the second power is what they could upgrade to (losing the original power) for a points cost of +X points (to be determined). sergeants would have to be just as expensive as they are in C:DA, and possibly more expensive (by 5 points). the librarian would start with 2 powers and be able to buy up to 2 additional powers (or maybe upgrade one power). master fury of the ancients veil of time librarian veil of time vortex of doom fear of the darkness holocoaust chaplain might of heroes his will be done command squad sergeant storm of the emperor's wrath fury of the ancients veteran squad sergeant might of heroes hellfire terminator sergeant might of heroes holocaust scout sergeant might of heroes vortex of doom tactical sergeant storm of the emperor's wrath word of the emperor assault sergeant storm of the emperor's wrath his will be done biker sergeant storm of the emperor's wrath holocoaust devastator sergeant word of the emperor fear of the darkness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allerka Posted December 27, 2007 Author Share Posted December 27, 2007 i actually removed all the anti-daemon and anti-psyker powers. Ah, ok then. here's a quick description of the powers remaining: Thanks for the run-down. That was definitely helpful, and I can certainly see most of those powers being usable here. (i like all these except purgatus because it's the least useful due to the targeting of ind.character) I think it'd still have its uses, especially against other SM armies, as it'd effectively strip RoB away from them. But we'll refrain from a tactics discussion here. :) all psychic powers available to an army would be included in that army's codex. if this is an army that has a larger # of psykers, then it stands to reason (much like the 4th ed C:CSM) that this army should have a greater # of psychic powers.... and that those powers should be somewhat different from those listed in just the available SM books. You're right. I guess my fear here is whether I'd actually be allowed to list the psychic powers in a downloadable PDF or some other format. We can get away with unit stats because they're technically different units than those found in other SM army books. I'm really just not sure how much we can do. I'll ask around a little, and we can figure it out from there. If we CAN list psychic power descriptions in this list (Only in the published list, though, I'm not going to do that in this thread), then that'll obviously make it far easier to compile a unique list for the army to use. if you're going to have a greater list of psychic powers, then you're going to need a 'psychic armory' much like in C:CSM. it's just a matter of figuring out how you want models to access that 'psychic armory.' should they purchase powers? should they have a higher base cost and be able to pick 1 power for free? should they come with one base power and be able to upgrade to another? should certain units come with specific powers and be able to upgrade to others? Actually, I rather like the basic power with an upgrade option. We can have a list at the front (baring the above-mentioned concerns), and then each unit entry can have "May take X power for +Y points, or Z power for +Q points". here's a set of suggestions (i narrowed down the selection of powers). the first power is what the model/unit would begin with, and the second power is what they could upgrade to (losing the original power) for a points cost of +X points (to be determined). sergeants would have to be just as expensive as they are in C:DA, and possibly more expensive (by 5 points). the librarian would start with 2 powers and be able to buy up to 2 additional powers (or maybe upgrade one power). I'd rather make psychic powers an upgrade than a standard option. However, we can still keep the costs low (Say, basic power for +10 points, upgrade power for +20, adjusted as needed for each unit). For Librarians, I would go with having two powers with two upgrades available, as the only SM characters currently which have more than two are Mephiston and Ahriman. Looking at the list you gave, that gives a total of eight powers, which is a fairly good selection, I think. I like the choices you made too, they all seem to pretty much fit the concept of each unit, and all would be viable options. I'll see if I can do up a new list with these options either today or tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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