SW vs Nidzilla my bigges disaster

[Torin]

Good day brother,

 

Last friday i had a game with the nids. Not knowing what to expect from them as i have not fought againt the nid for nearly 3 year. I got annihilated by them.

 

The game was 1750pts

 

My Wolves

 

HQ

 

Rune priest - frost Blade, COS & termie armor.

Battle leader- Frost Blade & SB with 4 WG termie +2 AC

 

Elite

 

Vender - AC HF

 

Troops

 

8 Grey Hunter - Melta Gun x1, PFx1 & BP, PPx1 &CCW, Bolter& CCW x5

8 Grey Hunter - Melta Gun x1, PFx1 & BP, PPx1 &CCW, Bolter& CCW x5

 

8 Blood Claw - PFx 2

8 Blood Claw - PFx 2

 

Fast Attack

 

2 Tornado Speed - AC HB

 

Heavy

 

2 x Pred Anihilator with HB sponson

1 x Whirlwind

 

 

Nid

 

1 x Tyrant with wing with full CC upgrades

1 x Tyrant with CC upgrades with 3 tyrant guards

3 x Carnifex with Barb strangler, venom canon, Improve armor & regen, 5 wound. the are about 235 pts each i think.

3 x Carnifex with 2 devourer i think with reroll to hit and wound

2 brood of 10 genestealer

 

mission cleanse

 

The game was madness. He had the better edge of the table after i lost the roll to him... leaving me in the open while he had a nice cliff in the which was in the middle of the table. I made a mistake by deploying heavy to far behind which allowed him to have full range of fire for his barb strangler. 3 of the carnie with barb strangler was place behind the cliff and the rest was behind it. He wont first turn but he handed to me. which was no use since i cant shoot anything. He played by placing all this tyrant with guards behind the fex. I had no where to hide. Both my pred was destroyed on turn 1, they got strangled. My vender got stunt. both my speeder got venom on turn 2.

 

The senario was bad, the marine are getting out gun by the nids how is this ever possible.. marine out gun.. my heavy support was down. The whirlwind cant do jack to the carni. I had no choice but to advance all my troop and termies forward to engage in hth & that was the only option i had. But when my marine advance, his fex with devourer begin to advance. Cutting both my Greyhunter by half. My blood Claws were advancing aswell but we cut down. My termie attemp to flank around the cliff but his fex with Devourer appeared from behind the cliff and fired taking down 2 termie. During the whole game i only manage to cause a single wound to one of his carnie due to lots of bad rolls. I told him that i conceded coz i had no way of doing any more damage to him except in HTH but i knew i wont even reach him.

 

If you were going up againt a list like this what you take or do.It was a real experience for no doubt about that & learned from it to. Pls advice.

[Battle-Brother Wags]

Your list is actually a decent list to go against anything, even MC tyranids. You have plenty of AC goodness, your TL Lascannons on the preds, even the heavy bolters can hurt anything he has. It looks like the only problem is that you allowed the board to be set up unevenly. No one should be outright shafted due to the side of the table they are forced to deploy in. It doesn't matter if a third party set it up, refuse to play on it if things aren't equal at least in the number of hiding spots in each deployment zone. The game should not be decided on the deployment dice roll.

 

With your list against his list, and given actual fair distribution of terrain in both deployment zones, I would have forgotten the mission objective for the firs turn or two, sat back and gotten rid of the Flyrant first and the other Tyrant second. After that, your heavy weapons take care of the dakka fexes (the ones with the 8 ST6 re-rolls on both to-hit and wound . . . insane). The whole time they do that, plop whirlwind rounds down on the genestealers, especially if he didn't upgrade their carapaces. The HS fexes are actually the least of your worries. Why? Because EVERYTHING in that tyranid list is going to do a tremendous amount of damage when they hit, but the HS fexes are the least likely to hit with a 4+ to hit at best. You're always going to be taking lots of wounds from the dakka fexes, so get rid of them soon. And if those tyrants get into CC, you'll lose to them more likely than not and while you are in CC you won't be shooting at anything else, so get rid of them SOONEST.

 

Like my one Tyranid playing buddy. He's just getting into the game and dropped quite a bit of money on a hive tyrant and he's getting the wings for it. He's gonna spend a ton of time making the wings look awesome and painting and stuff, but that sucker better get used to looking nice on the shelf because I've already guarenteed my buddy that he won't be seeing it on the table for more than 2 turns in any game he uses it. No. Matter. What.

 

But anyway, yeah, it looks like where you got screwed over was in disproportionate terrain setup. Make sure you're playing with 25% terrain as well. Not just that you have 6 quadrants with one piece in each quadrant, but that all available terrain literally takes up a quarter of the board when you push it all together in one corner. Its amazing how much terrain ends up on the board when you do it like that. And if anyone who likes a wide open board complains, you can show them in the rulebook where it says games are ideally played with 25% terrain.

[BibleBoy]

ummm. so when playing against nids, you like having MORE terrain out there for them to hide behind and be protected from your shots?

[Beef]

I will not even get involved in this as every game i have played against Nids I have Lost. And by lost i meen My wolves were totally obliterated

[Guest NewPerson]

I've yet to fight against nids because I'm too occupied fighting Traitor guards, the 156th Carnite Regiment (my local No.1 IG enemy). I'll fight some Nids soon and look like I'll need a lot of anti-horde fire. Long Fangs with Plasma Cannon or Vindie or LRC or Long Fang with Missile Launcher.

[Dark Bjoern]

I have faced such nidzilla list two week ago. First round one ´fex suffers 3 wound and a second ´fex 2 wounds. Both with regeneration, guess what happens....

Right, for the first he throws 3 sixes and for the secon 2 sixes. I lost in the third round. He ask me if i want revenge. He was disappointed as i said no. He became more disaapointed as noone else wanted to play against him. What could be the reason.....?

[deedark]

Did you ask for a re-roll as you have a Vdread?

[Togashi]

I think against nids i would prefer an Exterminator over 2 x predators. The armour 14 gives it more survivability and it has a bigger weapons load out aswell. With the points left over id upgrade the venerable to have a twin las-cannon and a missile launcher, a BS5 twin las is awesome. I would avoid close combat with your ven, all his units in close combat can mince it easily.

 

But yeah, i think the terrain deployment screwed you over in that game.

[Dark Bjoern]

I think against nids i would prefer an Exterminator over 2 x predators. The armour 14 gives it more survivability and it has a bigger weapons load out aswell. With the points left over id upgrade the venerable to have a twin las-cannon and a missile launcher, a BS5 twin las is awesome. I would avoid close combat with your ven, all his units in close combat can mince it easily.

 

But yeah, i think the terrain deployment screwed you over in that game.

I won´t to be rude, but we are talking about a nidzilla list with 8 MCs. An Exterminator would be useless in this case. Too low weapon strength. You need ACs, lascannons, rocket launcher, multimelta, all that fat stuff.

I would agree about the Exterminator against a horde list.

[dietrich]

Your list has little mobility, and that likely hurt you. I would look to either add some transports and/or add BC bikers, or mount the whole army in drop pods. With a few rhinos, razorbacks, or even a land raider or two, you can use the vehicles to block off some charge lanes and block LOS to the fexes. The bikes can hopefully get the drop on a carni and have a good chance to destroy it on the charge (esp. if you had an IC w/ a Frost Blade or WGPL w/ a thunder hammer in the unit).

 

The genestealers and Tyrant are a real close-combat threat, but the gunfexes want to avoid close-combat. This may sound obvious, but try to shoot the assaulty ones and assault the shooty ones. Having some mobility in the list will help this. The genestealers are a huge threat, don't underestimate them. Often people fire at the MCs, the stealers advance uncontested, and then eat through an army one unit at a time. Use Storm Caller on a unit that the Genestealers are lining up for a charge, going at Init 10 will really ruin their day.

 

I would also look to kit out the GH packs to have the second PF and PP. I hope all the terminators and both ICs have Runic Charms. I'd look to swap the Pred configs to either tri-las or AC-HB. Normally, I'm a fan of your configuration, but if you know you'll see this list again, I don't care for it. It's not clear if the speeders are one unit or two. No reason for them to be unit since you have FA slots available. You could add more speeders, but it is not necessary.

 

I would consider adding some WG with thunderhammers into the list. If they wound a MC, it goes in Init 1 next round. That may mean that it still wipes out the unit, but the TH and any PFs in the unit still get their attacks and it should be, at worst, mutual destruction (which is better than just having your unit wiped out).

 

Since your opponent took an extremely competitive list, I would see if next game, he'd waive the mandatory 3 HQs or drop down to 1500 pts. You spent the extra 250 points on a dread, he got 2 MCs for it. Then I'd drop the WGBL, put the termies on the RP, and use the ven dread as the second HQ.

 

Consider using the WW to lay mines. MCs don't like them since they take a wound on a 4+ ignoring their high T values. Genestealers may fear them, especially if the unit has already taken some damage. Mines might do nothing all game, but they might also direct his movements and lead to mistakes.

 

Nidzilla is a tough matchup for anyone, but you can beat it.

[spacewolflars]

I've won against 'nids before and the only luck that I had was with an almost entirely foot sloggin force with pretty tight terrain. Wags is right, that 25% can go pretty far when it needs to. The only vehicles that I had were 2 speeders w/assault cannons and a whirlwind dropping mines (hidden behind terrain). And basically what I did was to wait for him to come to my gunline, and shoot the bejesus out of him when I could see him. What was left after shooting was negligible in HtH with a few power fists. Tanks just go down too quick with bugs especially when they are prepared for them. so if you go footslogger (and you won't have to slog much, the bugs will come to you) then you go pretty far to shutting down his heavy shooting.

 

SWLars

[Quillen]

I never have hand trouble with a Zilla list. I am geared with alot of big weapons thou. I also run transports or Pods. Which is a must in 40k games.

 

I usually run atleast 2 Grey Hunter packs with 2 PlasmaPistol and Powerfists, Melta or Flamer (try to split them even in tournies), and 7 guys with Bolters. Sometimes 6 and a heroe attached to the squad. usually with a plasma pistol.

 

I would sit back behind cover for the first turn. Let him move closer to you. Let those genestealers get way out front and then kill them all. RUsh out and consentrait fire to cripple his list fast. Then piece meal him to death.

 

Rhinos are the bomb cause they will get you close enough to kill a fex or wipe a brood. Which is the key. A Landraider Crusader is even sweeter.

 

I have always faced outragious Nid lists thou. And the local bug player broke this out in a game to try and cripple me in a Campaign game we were playing. After crushing 4 balanced lists the Zilla list came out. He only had 5 Fexs and 2 Tyrants thou. Still I used rhinos to move my packs into the thick and kill things before he could react. In melee I have 2 Power fists a pack so I will kill them sooner or later. IF they want to stand and trade shots I have melta and Plasma to inflict wounds till I charge in and finish them.

 

Also this is one of those times when Long Fangs could actually make a dent. As the Tanks are facing a ton of interuption/killing power, Long Fangs would probly get a couple of wounds on the fexes and help Grey hunters pull them down.

 

Whirlwinds are not all that great solo. Three Whirlwinds are amazing. One whirlwind is upgrades for the Grey Hunter packs that are not being used.

[Battle-Brother Wags]

Quillen, thanks for your signature, man. Thats a good one. Very pertinent.

 

Back on topic - I think 25% should be basically mandatory in every game, no matter what mission or opponent. I do my best not to tailor my lists even when I know what I'm facing and I think that anyone that would add or take away from the amount of terrain on the board simply to suit their own style of play especially against a particular opponent really needs to shift their metagame thinking.

 

And yes, all that terrain can help vs. tyranids as well. Especially if you're not plopping all size 3 terrain out there. Have an even mix of size 3, size 2, and simple difficult terrain (basically size 1) on the board. Remember, if you ARE going to receive a charge from genestealers or whatever, it'd be nice to do so while in cover where at worst you're hitting at the same time as the stealers.

[Torin]

well thanks for the reply brothers.

 

I have faced such nidzilla list two week ago. First round one ´fex suffers 3 wound and a second ´fex 2 wounds. Both with regeneration, guess what happens....

Right, for the first he throws 3 sixes and for the secon 2 sixes. I lost in the third round. He ask me if i want revenge. He was disappointed as i said no. He became more disaapointed as noone else wanted to play against him. What could be the reason.....?

 

 

 

well that the thing about nid... they are very advance. They can produce advance targeting(reroll miss) & advance damaging weapon( reroll wound).. so advance even marine cant do that... heck not even the eldar. Just imagine marine getting outgun by nid.. hard to imagine. If you evaluate carefully you can easily say 1 carnifex i equal to 4 pred. Vehicle are to easily shaken & stunt. The nid dont need to pen your vehicle they just need to glace it is good enough... Bang!! you landraider get a glancing.. roll damage= crew stunt. Basically you land raider is useless. Let say a lucky hit... Bang!!! he roll a penetrating hit... roll damage = 4 .. boom there goes you LR(250pts down the drain).

 

But in return when the Landraider fire at the FEX 2 TLL ... zapp!!..zapp!!.. 2 hit 2 wounds.. ..DUDE!!! the FEX is still standing with another 2 wounds to go.

 

The FEX player say" big deal.. i have another 5 FEX with full wounds left".. heck shoot me.

 

Considering the possibilty for one to actually defeat a nidzilla list with marine... let say i take 2 long Fang Squad with 4 LC .. so total of 8 LC (damn expensive) so that 8 shot x 6 turn = 48 shots for the entire game but most likely only 30 will hit and there is a posibility that they will be in cover. more wasted shots. We will be lucky if no lictor decide to jump in and hold them from a turn or two. Nidzilla list is not that easy to go againts, if its in a veteran hand. So is understandable why people wouldnt want to play with that nidzilla player of your. But I dont deny there are way of defeating them. Like playing lots of droppod with grey hunter armed with 2PP and a PG supported by Blood CLaws. It should work. no vehicle needed just speed & maybe a whirlwind

[the jeske]

so advance even marine cant do that... heck not even the eldar. Just imagine marine getting outgun by nid.. hard to imagine.

well all I can is read the nids fluff . also we dont have any weapons [shoting] that is ap3 or lower.

On the lists . Being a nid player myself I find the 8MC not flexible enough , there wont be enough cover for those and tis to easy to bog them down in hth . 5/6 MC is far better [more counter units for example] . On the sw list . Not doing a mecha or drop is foolish . While normal sm can do a working footslogger list thanks to the gunline list , the sw cant do nothing right that . Its not the nids lists that was uber here[but the terrain set up helped its true] its the sw lists that was weak .

Against eldar , tau ,gunline sm or any other good build this list would lose . I mean you need 4 turns to get a charge [thats if the opponents doesnt move back ] . So you end up with 2 turns of real fighting , while your opponents has 4/5 turns with the whole army and 6 with some units. A sw mecha list is a good list against nids [what doesnt mean it cant be beaten by a nid player].

[Torin]

so advance even marine cant do that... heck not even the eldar. Just imagine marine getting outgun by nid.. hard to imagine.

well all I can is read the nids fluff . also we dont have any weapons [shoting] that is ap3 or lower.

On the lists . Being a nid player myself I find the 8MC not flexible enough , there wont be enough cover for those and tis to easy to bog them down in hth . 5/6 MC is far better [more counter units for example] . On the sw list . Not doing a mecha or drop is foolish . While normal sm can do a working footslogger list thanks to the gunline list , the sw cant do nothing right that . Its not the nids lists that was uber here[but the terrain set up helped its true] its the sw lists that was weak .

Against eldar , tau ,gunline sm or any other good build this list would lose . I mean you need 4 turns to get a charge [thats if the opponents doesnt move back ] . So you end up with 2 turns of real fighting , while your opponents has 4/5 turns with the whole army and 6 with some units. A sw mecha list is a good list against nids [what doesnt mean it cant be beaten by a nid player].

 

 

Well you have a point there. No doubt that nids dont have AP3 lower weapon,.coz you dont need it coz you have the wound and synapse (cannot be instantly kill by double str weapon) to make up for it. Well i cant deny that terrain and deployment was my mistake... and not knowing what to expect. But what im trying to justify here is that NID MC is suppose to be some what like marine vehicle right. But that the thing, vehicle only need to take a hit once... then its useless. Where else MC has Wound.. they cant be shaken nor stun. Bare in mind that wounding this MC are not as easy... most fex player would upgrade their armour to 2+ save and how many AP 2 weapon do a normal marine army would carry and their range is 24". Not considering it can overheat and kill your guys. You alos mention that the " SW list was weak"... how so. IMO its a balance list which would have fought fairly well againts most nid list. If its possible jeske pls post up a Strong SW list.. coz i would really love to see it, so would lots of other SW player. But at the end of it is just how you play it and no army is indestructable.

 

cheer :D

[Eberious]

Hello, I find that 9 landspeeders Tornado style, rip the apart pretty well. maybe even scouts with sniper rifles, and a basic commander. Always wroked for me when played against nidzilla armies. only lost about 3-4 times and play them quite often.

[Mad king George]

oh dam

 

i got shredded by nids and necrosn in a apocalypse battle the other day it was a alliance.

 

i killed 1 squad of 12 gene stealer's 2 carnifexes 1 humongous creature TYRANID TRYGON that cost 300 points and use to have mass points but not anymore.

 

and 1 necron

 

 

my scouts came on the rear to kill the lord and lost for some reason

grimar got killed inside his landraider with bodyguard from a ord penetrating

my grey hunters and blood claws held out and killed 2 carnifexes

 

my long fangs with wolf lord held out and killed a 1 squad of gene stealers

 

2nd squad of claws and my iron priest with thralls killed the humogus creature

 

bythe end he had 900-1000 point casualitys i had 1050 casualtys

[SeanyPrawny]

fill your elite with sniper scouts, your fast attack with 9 land speeder tempests and your heavy support with 3 units of 4 missile launcher long fangs lmao. fill the rest in as nessisary xD

[AkiraCho]

in all honesty wolves just dont do very well vs nids because you get less troops on the board then other marine armies due to high points and the fact you MUST have heros, and i think everyone can agree dealing with MC in melee is the last ditch effort and you should always choose another option.

 

that being said, there wasnt much you could have done, try to drop the terminators in exchange for heavier tank then the whirlwind... thats all i can say

[Mad king George]

lots of tanks and only go into close combat with carnifexes or low I

[SeanyPrawny]

Perhaps try a couple of pred annhialitors with all lascannons. sure to take some big guys down.

[Battle-Brother Wags]

in all honesty wolves just dont do very well vs nids because you get less troops on the board then other marine armies due to high points and the fact you MUST have heros, and i think everyone can agree dealing with MC in melee is the last ditch effort and you should always choose another option.

 

With all due respect to AkiraCho, and not meaning this in any kind of spiteful or harsh way, but I was beg the OP to ignore the above. In many respects, SWs are ideally suited to win against tyranids, MCs and all. With the amount of plasma weaponry at our disposal as well the amount of power fists? Each IC can have a Frost Blade which means that if you've got a 'fex with only a few wounds left, you can throw your IC in there and finish him off at initiative.

 

My favorite tactic against MC 'nids is to drop pod in, split the force of MCs, and use your drop pods not only to split the force, but also block yourself from reprisals. 2 DPs dropping in such a way as to focus on one 'fex, even an uber 2+ SV, 5 wound 'fex, has a tremendous chance of taking it down first turn. And if its an elite fex with 3+ save? Guarenteed goner.

 

And heck, I charge MCs all the frickin' time with my power fist galore squads. Yeah, you'll lose a guy or two each turn, but even if it takes you 2 rounds of CC, are you willing to trade 4 standard BCs or GHs to take out a carnifex? I'd think so. Carnifexes, unless specifically kitted out for CC, really ought not be feared in CC. And the ones that ARE loaded with scything talons, etc, will probably be the elite variety with a 3+ save, so it shouldn't be too hard to take it out with shooting.

 

Are these games close? Most of the time, yeah. Are they winnable for the SW? Absodamnalutely. Are they some of the most fun games I've ever played because they WERE so close? You betcha.

[Torin]

well i guess it all comes up to your army composition and the way you play. As for the last game, i guess i was unfortunate for not knowing what i was up againts and not having a balance terrain so to say. Such mistake are never to be repeated. Basically all army have their way of playing. I totally agree that SW are meant to go againts nid. But i was my bad that my game went wrong. Well something learned from this forum.

[Mad king George]

well i had killed in nids 3 models on the board and a 12 man squad and it came up to 1k-1.5k points +++