Eetion Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 With regards to the refernces to Alpharius's death. It was vox log, no videos at all. it wasnt filed or logged with the ultras and even they doubt its validity. The question is still did the battle take place or is it a AL cover up. Spoilers Athough now with Omegon and Alpharius being twin primarchs, id say that GW is moving towards the battle being real and one of them biting it to Gullieman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weiss Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 I hope not... 1. I like the idea of the AL having two primarchs running around causing havoc 2. Papa Smurf doesn't deserve the accolade of having killed one of the traitors... :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
le_tiss Posted March 14, 2008 Share Posted March 14, 2008 Posted in 2 other threads re: Legion (great by the way) but Outremar = Squats?????? anyone? Giles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weiss Posted March 14, 2008 Share Posted March 14, 2008 your question is not very descriptive... There is no mention whatsoever of them being squats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
le_tiss Posted March 14, 2008 Share Posted March 14, 2008 Apologises Weiss In Legion when the All the Imperial Guard are lined up to meet Alpharius and one whole company are described as Dwarves (called the Outremar) therefore are they abhumans / Squats? Giles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weiss Posted March 14, 2008 Share Posted March 14, 2008 Oh right. No, it's just their leader who is a dwarf (in the non-fantasy sense). He has psychic powers and very good tactical acumen, but the rest of the troops are normal sized. That's the impression I got from that passage... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vassakov Posted March 14, 2008 Share Posted March 14, 2008 Well... Hats off to Mr Abnett. I read it, I then read it again to make sense of it. And, of course i beggers a few questions: 1. What happened to the Alpha Legion between the end of Legion and the heresy? Have they truly fallen? 2. Are both/either of twins dead? 3. How much does the Emperor know? 4. If the Cabal are that powerful, why not approach the Emperor decades ago? Why wait for everything to hang in the balance? 5. Is this the end for John Grammaticus? My ideas: 1. They're gone. Something happened, maybe some sort of rituals to bind the traitors together, or maybe they just went mad with the warp. 2. My thoughts are there will be a sequel, and I wouldn't surprised if their is a civil war between Alpharius and Omegon. 3+4. Ok, not a clue on these. Maybe the Emperor would have killed them. 5. Hope not - one the best characters in a book full of good ones. The operatives were particularly good as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Kardon Posted March 14, 2008 Share Posted March 14, 2008 on the alpharius thing what if there still is only 20 primarchs but sumething happend which is in the book but then that still leaves 1 missing one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kairo Posted March 14, 2008 Share Posted March 14, 2008 Here's a few more thoughts to add to the Horus Heresy series overall. In the Dark Angels board here on the B&C, we've been discussing an interesting thing of note. The appearance of the Cabal in Legion might not be their first appearance in the series. On page 143 of Descent of Angels, the Watchers in the Dark tell Zahariel that they are members of a cabal that is devoted to thwarting the most ancient evil. Could this be the same Cabal? After rereading the entire exchange between the Watchers and Zahariel, I am leaning towards yes. If so, then remember that at the end of the book Zahariel is sent back to Caliban with the Dark Angels who most likely end up being the Fallen. Is it possible that the Fallen are acting with the Cabal? It would certainly explain why Jervis Johnson has said that Cypher is not a Chaos Space Marine and why Cypher stirs up so much trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigger-than-Jesus Posted March 14, 2008 Share Posted March 14, 2008 Here's a few more thoughts to add to the Horus Heresy series overall. In the Dark Angels board here on the B&C, we've been discussing an interesting thing of note. The appearance of the Cabal in Legion might not be their first appearance in the series. On page 143 of Descent of Angels, the Watchers in the Dark tell Zahariel that they are members of a cabal that is devoted to thwarting the most ancient evil. Could this be the same Cabal? After rereading the entire exchange between the Watchers and Zahariel, I am leaning towards yes. If so, then remember that at the end of the book Zahariel is sent back to Caliban with the Dark Angels who most likely end up being the Fallen. Is it possible that the Fallen are acting with the Cabal? It would certainly explain why Jervis Johnson has said that Cypher is not a Chaos Space Marine and why Cypher stirs up so much trouble. That makes one hell of a lot of sense, they could be like the Alphas, some loyal, some Chaos. Nice find Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eetion Posted March 14, 2008 Share Posted March 14, 2008 Im still irritated that Alpharius was wounded by The chief of the Lucifer Blacks... a psychotic guardsmen yes... but till a guardsman wounded a primarch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brother Hastatus Posted March 16, 2008 Share Posted March 16, 2008 I've read it all now, and think it one of the best in the series! My thoughts on the Primarch thing are: 1. Only one is alive after Guilliman killed the other. 2. They're both alive? They all look the same. The termie captain is even the same height as Alpharius. He could have been acting as him. Think about it. If they fake a Primarch at a war council, a battle is just as likely. On the topic of whats happened after the Heresy: 1. There was a civil war in the legion, where some turn to chaos. I think Omegon would turn traitor. Throughout the book, hes the one thats always quick to anger, less likely to listen. I think that would betray him to chaos. Alpharius would stay loyal. 2. Both Primarches stayed loyal, but most of the legion left them. The marines might not have liked what had happened, and left the Primarches. Then, who knows where Alpharius and Omegon are? I'd say somewhere high up in the Imperium. The fight with Chayne, Alpharius could easily have let himself be stabbed. Why bother defending yourself when the attack can't harm you much? It may have been a trick to end the fight more quickly. I noticed the slight hint at the missing Primarches. It said something about they 'overstepped their bounds' as Weiss says. Sounds like the other two Primarches did something rather strange. Since heresy is overstepping their bounds, but Horus etc weren't deleted. With the bit about loads of traitors not actually being traitors, I think its because they are all at truth loyal. Being commanded by the Emp for so long is going to have an affect. They realize just how bad chaos is. But its too late... I also really like the idea of the cabal and the watchers in the dark. It makes the entire plot deepen a lot. The fallen and the Alpha Legion fighting amongst themselves behind the scenes, with chaos v. loyalists. And they're all trying to help the Imperium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battle captain corpus Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 on the alpharius thing what if there still is only 20 primarchs but sumething happend which is in the book but then that still leaves 1 missing one. Nooooo....there are two Primarchs "missing"...Alpahrius just inhabits two bodies. There is a difference. The other two had whole legions, the Alphas had only one but with twin leaders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormreaver Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 Regarding the question on wether the AL have 'fallen' or not, there are only really 1 possible answer that fits in all the fluff. Having failed to destroy the Emperor and have Chaos burn out , they are faced with Chaos winning by slowly taking over. Therefore anything they can do to make Chaos win faster is a good idea since having Chaos win in a quick and total manner will burn it out. Therefore they use Chaos and further its goals in order to help Chaos acheive victory faster and wipe itself out. Thats not to say the odd AL doesnt fall to Chaos completely but I imagine the rest are being pragmatic about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weiss Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 I would agree with that interpretation, it makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brother Hastatus Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 I think thats a good explanation actually by Stormreaver. Makes a lot of sense and explains their actions after the Heresy. So they didn't run to the eye as they wanted to end the civil war quicker. So instead they stayed in the middle of the Imperium, away from the other traitors, where they can concentrate on stopping the Imperium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yogi Posted March 18, 2008 Share Posted March 18, 2008 I think that after the heresey the Alphas fell to Chaos. Having failed, there is nothing left. It's not like they can come back and say to the Imperium, "hey guys sorry bout that whole "Betrayal" thing, were loyal honest." I personally think now they revel in their own doom and just do what pleases themselves. Dan Abnett has obviously read the IA article and crafted his book around it. I read that article many times and everything fits. for example the Alpha legion pursuing their own objectives and not fighting (after Istvann IV) with the main force during the heresery, following what objectives? perhaps the Cabals.. But in the end the 40k Alpha legion has fallen in my opinion. I doubt they still serve the cabal having betrayed their loyalty and gained nothing. The Alpha v Omega war sounds really cool. True Chaos fighting with yourself at it's finest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted March 18, 2008 Share Posted March 18, 2008 When i read about the watchers in DofA they reminded me of Eldar, am i the only one in this or... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vulkan's wrath Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 i thought legion was the fourth best book in the series. i listed them 1-7: 7.Descent of Angels- this doesnt even really relate that muc hto the horus heresy 6.False Gods- this book was fun but there weren't that many memorable things goin on in it. 5.Horus Rising-good starter book, but could've been better 4. Legion- the first half of the book was kinda boring, but the second half more than made up for it. the conspiracies and the twin primarch thing made the book good. 3. Flight of the Eisenstein- continuing the series, the author gave a good in-depth book telling more about the death guard, mortarion, garro, gulgor(form the medusa v campaign), and best of all, typhon(or typhus). 2.Galaxy in flames- the anticipation of the rebellion finally happening made this book good. it also showed tragedy when so many loyalists and themain characters died. 1.Fulgrim- this book was great. there was non-stop action all the way through the book to the very end. this was the best book in the series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weiss Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 I think the reason you didn't like the start of Legion is probably because you have no interest in anything bar space marines... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gothical Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 Isn't there the thing that the account of Guilliman killing Alpharius was relayed by an Inquisitor, who was later declared Hereticus by other members of the Inquisition and even the Ultramarines themselves doubt the validity/refuse to confirm the validity of the account? Plus, if such an event went down, couldn't Guilliman simply have killed an Alpha Legionary? I mean that Alpharius was the last found primarch, so his picture wasn't bandied around much, and as he felt loathed by the other Primarchs he seemes to have tried to avoid their company as much as possible. And every Alpha Legionary wears the same armour, and all use the name Alpharius when it suits them - so it's possible that Guilliman wouldn't recognise whether he was fighting Alpharius or not (especially as Alpharius lacked that "aura" other Primarchs seemed to have had). Coulda just killed some bog-standard slightly-bigger-than-average Marine (seeing as it was "Alpharius" - 1 blow, Guilliman unharmed. Guilliman - 1 blow, "Alpharius" killed outright). This brings me to another point on the validity of the "killing of Alpharius" - the account describes that Alpharius "actively sought out Guilliman for single combat, and approached resplendent in shining armour" (but all Alpha Legionaries wear the SAME armour, and it certainly wasn't shiny, with all the sneaking about they did). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weiss Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 Sounds more like a farce the more you think about it really... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 Im still irritated that Alpharius was wounded by The chief of the Lucifer Blacks... a psychotic guardsmen yes... but till a guardsman wounded a primarch. Why would that irritate you? Alpharius suckered the guy in, took an easily-survivable paper cut, trapped his sword, and hacked the guy in half. Simple trap for a simple mind. ^_^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pins Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 le_tiss: I had that feeling too, about the Outremar. If Dan Abnett has actually managed to get away with putting the Squats (under another name) into a GW product then it's quite a tell about how much clout he must with the company. I read them as Squats, myself. I'm pretty sure it mentions that they're all dwarves, not just the leader but I might be wrong and I won't hoy the toys out of my pram if someone corrects me ^_^ On a whole I thought the book was a fine piece of work. Abnett makes the Imperial army look as impressive as the Astartes at times, and he always manages to create characters that you care about and/or can relate to. Someone mentioned how Alpharius doesn't seem as impressive as the other Primarchs, and I think this comes from the fact that most of the book is written from the point of view of Imperial Army personnel who perhaps aren't as awe-struck by Primarchs as marines themselves are, as the Army characters in the book seem to have had little or no contact with the Astartes beforehand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherAtrox Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 then it's quite a tell about how much clout he must with the company. ...so the fact that he just made a 21st Primarch and completely turned the entirety of the Alpha Legion and their motives in a direction few 40K fans ever expected isn't a good enough symbol of his clout? ^_^ I think Abnett himself posted on his blog that he was surprised how much GW let him change. No, the guy definitely has a lot of pull in the GW fluff department, this book should be evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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