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The Astartes Vocates


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#1
Commissar Molotov

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Fetch me my flamethrower! It's time I hunted you guys down once more.

Where are you all? And how goes the hunt for the Oathbreakers? <_<

(Translation: I'm working on some background for the new incarnation of the Astartes Vocates. Let's kick this thing back into gear!)

Edited by Commissar Molotov, 15 March 2008 - 08:15 AM.

 
QUOTE (voi shet magir @ May 31 2011, 05:38 AM) 
That is an unexpectedly strong assertion from a dead person.

#2
Sigismund Himself

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Still working on them as always...

Use the old website?

#3
Commissar Molotov

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I'm actually planning to delete it. It's not really that needed, I think, especially what with Darrell and Barret (and you, of course) having joined the evil empire. ;)

I've been working on the new Vocates. Especially towards the end of the last development phase, the greatest problem we had was with the Forge Knights and the lack of attention they were being given. I've suggested to Darrell, Nine and Barret that we use a new evil Chapter, something that can give us much more cohesion. My suggestion was to use the Harvesters. with added depth, as the new Oathbreakers. It gives us some more potential - rather than the Forge Knights, confined to the Maelstrom, the fleet-based nature of the Harvesters means that the Honour Company can end up chasing them across the galaxy, making them more interesting. It does mean altering the Akkadian Crusade, though, as the Reapers didn't have just a singular homeworld.

I've also been looking into altering the Zodiac slightly. Shifting a couple of the purities around to make more sense (nothing that would change too much) and arranging things. One idea I've had that I'm hoping to execute is to use a clockface of sorts. I'll explain it further once I have the concept down.


Anyway, this is what I have thus far:

Loyal Progeny: The Astartes Vocates


Imperial Scholars know that there have been twenty-six Space Marine foundings. Each founding is an event of huge proportions, being of huge political, military and economic significance to the Imperium. Mankind's long and bloody struggle against the traitor, the alien and the mutant has led to over one thousand Space Marine chapters being constructed. None can know the true number, as many Imperial records have been lost or destroyed. With records destroyed, purged, rescinded or revised, whole centuries of Imperial history can disappear entirely in a few moments. For the sake of the Imperium's safety, and the sanity of every Man, such events are perhaps best left forgotten.

The 'Dark Founding'
One example of this is the thirteenth founding, the so-called 'Dark Founding'. None can tell the names, the numbers or even the details of the chapters created during this time. Dark rumours abound, but none can be confirmed or denied. The Adeptus Mechanicus refuses to answer any requests for information regarding the Dark Founding. Searching for information on these times seems fruitless. Any such libraries or archives relating to the founding would likely be hidden deep on Mars itself, guarded by all the tech-legions of the Fabricator-General himself. In the past, academics have even been executed on the order of the High Lords for daring to openly suppose what went on in those long-forgotten times.

The Fourteenth Founding
Although the events of the dark founding are pure conjecture, many Imperial records surrounding the fourteenth founding still survive to this day. Inquisitorial scholars and those of the Adeptus Mechanicus willing to share their knowledge have spoken of how the tech-priests took the greatest care to ensure no operating practices deviated from the norm. Dictates from the High Lords ensured that almost 80% of the founding's chapters bore the genetic material of Roboute Guilliman or Rogal Dorn. Other pure-blooded gene-seed (such as Vulkan's genetic legacy) were also used. It was clear that the Imperium wanted a founding of loyal Space Marines chapters without the sort of hideous genetic abnormalities that could prevent them from carrying out their duty.

It is undeniably the case that several chapters were created during the fourteenth founding using 'lesser', 'debased' or 'questionable' gene-seeds, but these were in the vast minority and were created under extremely tight scrutiny. Even those chapters created from the Ultramarines were rigorously checked, many perfectly usable progenoid glands being discarded so as to ensure that the chapters had the most stable genetic base possible. Imperial rumours even suggest that the Adeptus Mechanicus eradicated a half-constructed chapter because it did not meet the fourteenth founding's stringent standards. The deaths of these marines never entered the Imperial roll of honour because their chapter had not yet been given an official name, insignia or livery.

Inquisitor Maltheus and the 'Astartes Vocates'
It is the duty of all Space Marine chapters to defend the Imperium, the Emperor and all Mankind from threats both within and without. It is also known that many Space Marine chapters form close bonds and associations, often on the field of battle. The 'Astartes Vocates' is a label originally coined by Inquisitor Maltheus of the Ordo Hereticus in late .M37 when referring to a small sub-set of the 14th Founding. He noted that several of the chapters (including the Castigators, Judicators, Sublimators and the Thousand Swords, among others) created during the Fourteenth Founding operated in close association, exchanging tributes and honours at ritual times. His research led him to rumours that at the end of the Fourteenth Founding, several Masters of the newly created chapters gathered to swear a great oath. Their backgrounds were diverse, their heritages disparate and histories distinct. But their loyalty to the God-Emperor of Man united them in purpose without question. Looking at the horrible legacies of the thirteenth founding, the Chapter Masters swore an oath to duty, to honour and, above all, to purity. The chapters of the Vocates have grown in many different ways, each being shaped by their heritage and by the experiences and enemies that have assailed them. But their common bond unites them in life and in death.


Criticism of Maltheus's Work
The term 'Astartes Vocates' is a subjective one. Inquisitors (both Maltheus's contemporaries, and those in the millennia since) have criticised the validity and veracity of his work. Even those who support his work argue over which Chapters the term ought to apply to. Some claim that all the Chapters of the Fourteenth Founding were part of a 'Favoured' Founding, foretold in the Emperor's Tarot to herald a new golden age for the Imperium. Others point to the specific chapters that swore that binding and fateful oath, whilst still more suggest that only a certain few of those chapters can still be said to abide by their word. It is known that the Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes Vocates take their loyalties seriously - so much so that they participated in the eradication of the Reapers when their worship of the Changer of the Ways was uncovered.

The 'Zodiac'
The 'Zodiac' was an integral part of Maltheus's research into the Fourteenth Founding. He believed that each of the Chapters that gathered to swear the oath emphasised one of the virtues that the Adeptus Astartes are said to embody. He believed that united, the 'Oathbrethren' could herald a new Golden Age. Over four thousand years since Maltheus wrote his treatises, the fabled Golden Age seems more distant than ever; and yet the Oath endures.


  • The Angels of Perdition - the Purity of Mind
    'Always guard your thoughts. Chaos lurks everywhere, and you must be ready to block it out. An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.'
  • The Black Watch - The Purity of Form
    "The road to damnation is paved with good intentions. Noble purpose and reasons are not enough. Every action, every thought, every prayer must be measured to the Emperor himself. Trust not in the minds and souls of men, they are fickle and easily led astray; trust instead in the cold purity of the machine, it cannot be turned by word or desire."
  • The Castigators - The Purity of Flesh
    'Mutation runs rampant through the Imperium, and Mankind struggles to hold onto its humanity as the genepool deteriorates. We must maintain the purity of our flesh, lest we cease to be men at all.'
  • The Execrators - The Purity of Hate
    'The rewards of tolerance is treachery. Intolerance is a blessing. Those that are not like you are your enemy. The Emperor asks only that you hate. Aliens, mutants, heretics and traitors rot the galaxy from the inside out, corrupting the Emperor's glorious Imperium. We hate them because they seek to shackle and enslave Mankind.'
  • The Judicators - The Purity of Purpose
    'A mind without purpose will wander in dark places. There is purity of purpose in the faith of the just. Your purpose is greatness. Mankind must always have a goal in mind, and struggle towards it while remaining ignorant of all else; only in ignorance are we safe. It is the goal of Man to die with his purpose fulfilled.'
  • UNKNOWN CHAPTER - The Purity of Faith
    'Even a man who has nothing may still have faith. Regardless of one's station or role in the Imperium, through faith he is assured glory in the Emperor's sight. Faith is the great equalizer amongst men; the same faith that allows a factory worker to rise from his bed in the morning is the same faith that allows a Space Marine to gladly give his life for the Emperor.'
  • The Steel Guardians - The Purity of Spirit
    ''As we jealously guard our thoughts and bodies, so too must we guard our spirits. We must ensure we are not entrapped by the lures of heretics or aliens, whose forked tongues drip words of venom. Resist their temptations at all times, lest ye be damned.'
  • The Sublimators - The Purity of Deed
    'Words do not win wars, deeds do. Faith without deeds is worthless. You must glorify the Emperor with every action, that every Man gives all he has for the Imperium of Mankind. But one must not only act, they must act in the name of the Emperor in a way which glorifies the Emperor's name. It is such deeds that nurture the roots of the Imperium with the blood of heroes.'
  • The Thousand Swords- The Purity of Focus
    'A broad mind lacks focus. A Man must always look for the simplest explanation using the simplest reasoning; complexity breeds doubt, doubt breeds heresy, heresy breeds damnation. Why question when you may act? Why write a book when a single spoken word will do? Why ask why? The Emperor is the answer to all your questions. No mercy, no remorse, just kill.'
  • The Warlords - The Purity of Heart
    'Sins hidden in the heart turn to decay. Always act for the benefit of the Emperor, for the greatest of deeds can be made worthless when the intentions were selfish. Seek reward in service alone, for to serve the Emperor in whatever form is to live a righteous existence. To seek glory, to seek riches, to seek ambitiously is to seek failure and disgrace. Before the Emperor, all are as nothing.'
  • UNKNOWN CHAPTER - The Purity of Strength
    'Text Fragment Missing...'
  • The Reapers (The Harvesters) - The Purity of -



Of course, a few of those Chapters have been pretty much untouched for the best part of a year (which is actually a terrible shame). So it remains to be seen what we do. I know Nine's interested in detailing the Purity of Strength, but I'll let him list his ideas.

Less talking from me, for a while.


(As an aside, Sig, do you still use MSN? I haven't seen you on for ages.)
 
QUOTE (voi shet magir @ May 31 2011, 05:38 AM) 
That is an unexpectedly strong assertion from a dead person.

#4
Ezekial Gravestone

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moltov i know i am but a novice to this all but do u think i could help u out on this? i could work something for the purity of faith chapter if thats ok
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#5
Espada Azul

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Actually I was under the impression that most if not all the Vocates chapters were already 'taken', e.g. they were the demesne of Molotov and his companions. If not, then, oh boy, I pity the poor rascal who's going to write about the Oathbreaker. Not a good thing, being hunted by the Honor Guard of several chapters.


"Strike hard, strike swiftly, strike silently. Leave no trace of your passing but shadows, and the remains of your enemies." -- Brother-Captain Janus 'Lawin' Lawson, Azure Blades 2nd Company

#6
Brother Cambrius

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Is there room for one more Vocates chapter? My Decimators are pretty much perfect for the job.

Cambrius

#7
Nine_Breaker

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So I'm not fast enough for you, Mol? :rolleyes:

Actually I was under the impression that most if not all the Vocates chapters were already 'taken', e.g. they were the demesne of Molotov and his companions. If not, then, oh boy, I pity the poor rascal who's going to write about the Oathbreaker. Not a good thing, being hunted by the Honor Guard of several chapters.

I'm pretty sure that recruitment is indeed closed.

I've also been looking into altering the Zodiac slightly. Shifting a couple of the purities around to make more sense (nothing that would change too much) and arranging things.

Since all the updates to the original version of the Angels of Perdition, I've been seriously considering shifting them over to Purity of Faith. I mean, they ended up recruiting from zealots and cults of redemption after claiming their home world, they worship the God-Emperor and follow the Imperial Creed, and pretty much their whole creed is based around faith over knowledge. Why seek to understand the enemy when you already know how to kill it? Hell, they even go into battle chanting prayers and reciting religious passages.

To do this, I understand I'll have to move the Angels of Perdition away from Purity of Mind. I think this means dropping the mind tricks like the "Shielding" process (mental barrier that is shoved into new recruits' brains by Librarians) as well as downplaying the chapter's Librarians and perhaps emphasizing the roles of the Chaplains. I think I need to portray the Angels more as the ranks of unrelenting faithful that we see in so much of GW's art, especially BT art and some Ultramarine stuff.

Plus, the article can use some tightening up anyways.

I know Nine's interested in detailing the Purity of Strength, but I'll let him list his ideas.

Indeed I am interested in doing the Purity of Strength chapter.

All of my initial ideas came from the original discussion thread for Purity of Strength back on the Vocates forums. The ideas I liked from there were those portraying this chapter as something like power armored Kriegers, who are all to willing to throw themselves at the biggest, baddest threats in the Imperium. Perhaps even seek these enemies out. Hive Fleet Leviathan comes to mind. I also liked the idea of a strong meritocracy within the chapter. If a Captain was messing up and making bad/cowardly decisions, he might be relieved of command by his subordinates. Whether this would be demotion, exile, or death I'm not sure of. I guess it would all depend on what the officer in question did wrong. Anyhow, I imagine the chapter's commanders would be constantly seeking to test their strength and justify their rank. Personal glory, accomplishments, and heroics would likely be encouraged in such a chapter.

Well that is all well and good, but lately my ideas for the chapter have been getting further and further away from the jolly, knightly folks they started out being. Awhile ago, I noticed that all of the Vocates chapters have some major flaws, despite being founded to be the perfect chapters and bring about a Golden Age in the Imperium. The Golden Age has never come, the brotherhood is often stressed to the breaking point, and each of the chapters has some serious problems. The Judicators are shunned by their own oathbrethren, the Angels of Perdition go around burning perfectly good books and such, the Warlords were almost excommunicated for empire building, and the Castigators are intolerant bigots and hypocrites. And I started thinking of ways to darken the chapter up and give them their own unique flaw(s).

After awhile of looking at what I had, I was reminded by the Terran marines in Starcraft fighting the Zerg hordes when I thought about this chapter fighting Tyranids. In particular, I thought of this particular picture of a Terran marine. This led to me thinking back to the days when Space Marines painted challanges and kill marks on their armor/weapons and were rough-and-ready hard asses. I also explored the idea of combat drugs and stimulants. I'm not sure about gland warriors; I was thinking more along the lines of inhalants and maybe injections. Of course, I would have to tie this in with Purity of Strength. My thoughts for this is that the chapter believes very strongly in "survival of the fittest", and is always seeking ways to prove they are the strongest and get stronger. They prove they are the strongest, not just by beating up the 'big ones', but by obliterating enemy forces with heavy handed force. I've been interested in figuring out how to make a heavy assault type chapter anyhow. Ablative armor plating, combat drugs, and nasty attitudes may be the way to go. Possible flaws from the chapters practices may be shortened life expectancy, discipline problems (with outsiders more likely), criticism from other Astartes about drug use and lack of discipline, and possible gene seed problems.

So, some major parts of the chapter might include (in general):
-"Survival of the fittest" mentality, meritocracy
-Heavy assault tactics
-High level of individualism
-Emphasis on personal accomplishments
-Always out to fight the strongest threat to the Imperium
-Possible use of combat drugs and stimulants

That's all the rambling I've got in me for now. Looking forward to more discussion and comments. Long live the Astartes Vocates!

#8
Commissar Molotov

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moltov i know i am but a novice to this all but do u think i could help u out on this? i could work something for the purity of faith chapter if thats ok

Is there room for one more Vocates chapter? My Decimators are pretty much perfect for the job.


Honestly, I don't think so. At least, not at the moment. The history of the Vocates project has been plagued by people dropping out. As we're looking to push on forward and get this project finished, we're not actively soliciting new applications right now. I'm not so sure I'd be a huge fan of jamming an already square-shaped DIY Chapter into a round-shaped Vocates slot. :(


If not, then, oh boy, I pity the poor rascal who's going to write about the Oathbreaker. Not a good thing, being hunted by the Honor Guard of several chapters.


That'll be me, actually. :) The Harvesters were my idea, but the IA will need drastically altering to fit.

So I'm not fast enough for you, Mol? :P


Nope! You keep breakin' my heart. :)



Since all the updates to the original version of the Angels of Perdition, I've been seriously considering shifting them over to Purity of Faith. I mean, they ended up recruiting from zealots and cults of redemption after claiming their home world, they worship the God-Emperor and follow the Imperial Creed, and pretty much their whole creed is based around faith over knowledge. Why seek to understand the enemy when you already know how to kill it? Hell, they even go into battle chanting prayers and reciting religious passages.

To do this, I understand I'll have to move the Angels of Perdition away from Purity of Mind. I think this means dropping the mind tricks like the "Shielding" process (mental barrier that is shoved into new recruits' brains by Librarians) as well as downplaying the chapter's Librarians and perhaps emphasizing the roles of the Chaplains. I think I need to portray the Angels more as the ranks of unrelenting faithful that we see in so much of GW's art, especially BT art and some Ultramarine stuff.

Plus, the article can use some tightening up anyways.


When you mentioned it to me last night, it was something that surprised me. But I do kinda agree that the AoP have something lacking, that the core of the concept has been lost. It seems to me that Purity of Mind has been lost within the Chapter, despite the advent of some awesome ideas - The Shielding being one of them. Especially when you started talking about the Ecclesiarchal faith and the like.

So it strikes me that whichever way we end up deciding to go, the AoP are going to be gutted - either we drag them back to Purity of Mind, and cut out all the faith elements, or we accept the inevitable and make the Purity of Faith, in which case we could easily excise the relevant mind-related bits and give them to the new Purity of Mind Chapter. I'm interested in Purity of Mind especially because they're the thematic counterpart to the Castigators' Purity of Flesh.

It might help if we look at your original statement of intent, Nine (just ignore the screwy formatting!):

The Astartes Vocates appealed to me because it allows, or even encourages, a group of chapters that are all similar yet very different. They are all working toward a broad thing, which is purity, but they all go about it in a different way. This already varies from my other chapters, the Steel Dragons and the Dark Hands. The former fights because that�s why they like to do, and the later out of pure rage and for vengeance. I also wanted a chapter that felt and sounded completely different from what is the norm both for me and the recent DIYs that have been coming out. Thus were born the Angels of Perdition!

The name alone conjured up a strong image in my mind. The title is wonderfully gothic and 40k-ified I believe, and moves away from the knightly feel of 4th ed Astartes and back to the warrior-monks/angels of death I first saw in 3rd ed. And seeing how gothic the current foundations of the AV seem to be (Castigators and the ideas for the Judicators), I think the Angels of Perdition will sound just right when put next to the other chapters of this most puritanical order of Astartes. Not to mention �Angels� used in a chapter�s name always reminds me of something relentless in its pursuit, something sinister that you never know whether to welcome or be terrified of. Perhaps that comes from my interpretation of the �Angels of Death� of myth. I wanted my Angels of Perdition to have that same sort of dreadful, relentless force of death sort of feel to it. And so, I went about brainstorming some fluff that would fit what I envision this particular bunch of Astartes to be like.

Just like Mol subtly mixed in a little Batman and Nazi Germany into his Castigators, because that stuff oddly enough just fits, I wanted to mix in some cultural stuff into the Angels of Perdition that fit them. However, I don�t want this to be their main theme, merely some gentle flavor mixed in. After a bit-o-research, I decided to go with a bit of Assyrian flavor, along with a pinch of my favorite �super hero��Spawn. The main thing I want to barrow from these two sources was their cruelty, and the sheer terror the mere mention of their name struck into the hearts of their foes. The Assyrians even found a way to conquer without fighting: spreading stories of their battles and frightening their opponents into submission. Not only this, but they made sure that once they conquered a land, it�s people would be unable or two scared to rise up against their empire at a later date. I always felt that this was something the Astartes would do on a regular basis, but never saw it in the fluff, and so I decided that it might be something to include in my own DIY. Now I just had to fit this image into one of the �Zodiacs� of the Astartes Vocates...

...which didn�t take long. I read Mol�s take on the Zodiacs, and his �random idea� for Purity of Mind immediately started sparking my imagination.


-------
Pure of Mind - Tentatively claimed by Nine Breaker
Could potentially be a Librarian-influenced chapter? I don't much see the chapters in the Vocates straying wildly from the codex, so I'm not sure I see Captain-Librarians or the like, but a chapter that follows the doctrines of the Librarians, that perhaps looks to the Librarians as 'wise men'. I had the random idea that this chapter could perhaps set out to hunt and kill psykers, and they undergo gruelling mental conditioning so that they have mental 'shields' in their mind to resist psychic trickery. in that sense you might almost compare them to the Grey Knights, but they're still ordinary marines, capable of fighting Orks and Eldar. They'd be different to the Castigators in that they can distinguish between Imperial Psykers and Chaos Witches. (So Librarians would be allowed).
-------


I really like the idea of the Angels of Perdition going through extremely rigorous mental conditioning to develop a �mental shield� of sorts, all for the sole purpose of exterminating the witch and rogue psyker. This wouldn�t make them anything like super-marines or anything, but they know what they were made for and like to be prepared for it. Because of the nature of their main focus, the Angels of Perdition would be welcomed to a world with a mix of awe, relief, and dread. They might have come to rid a city of a powerful witch that�s been terrorizing the place... or they might have come for you. Either way, you can bet they know something that you don�t. Also, I can see the Angels being as relentless and determined to accomplish their mission/duty as the Death Guard were back in the times of the Great Crusade. Just like the emmissaries of Death itself, you can slow the Angels of Perdition down and delay the inevitable, but only by divine intervention can you ever hope of stopping them.

This is just a rough idea of what I hope to bring to the Astartes Vocates. Just like Darrell, I'll probably be posting future things like this as well, showing my thought process while doing up the Angels of Perdition. Maybe I�ll even inspire somebody else in the process.


------



With regards to Purity of Strength, I also went back to our original discussion topic.


Purity of Strength does seem to have potential, depending on how it's defined. The T-Swords with "Focus" already concentrate at perfecting their martial skills above all else. Strength could perhaps be chosen for a Chapter that view themselves as "dragon slayers", always seeking to test themselves against the biggest, baddest beasties they can find, like Daemon Princes, Hive Tyrants and the like.


EDIT: I do like that 'dragon-slayer' idea. The idea of constantly pitting yourself against the greatest threats in the Imperium, as it's the only way to really prove yourself as a warrior. They'd almost be like power armoured Krieg, volunteering for the dangerous assignments. They'd have been raring for it when the Tyranids came on the Horizon.


Purity of strength struck as being potentially interesting and from it I too had some 'mind burps' as Nine put it....

Hail from a technologicaly addvanced society, with a social ethos based on that of ancient sparta. Gladatorial Games?

Weakness is in no way tolerated, specifically that of mind, body and faith and in turn niether is mutation.

Strength in mind, body and faith. All of these must be strong to attain perfect strength.

Strength through adherance to the codex.


This chapter might have an ork like organization, where the best fighter is the default commander. Perhaps, instead of a Chapter Master electing a new Captain when a replacement was needed, veteran sergeants and the like would fight in ceremonial duels to decide who got command. And of course, the chapter would always be looking to prove their strength in the toughest fights. What doesn't kill them makes them stronger, after all.


What I was thinking wasn't having the strength to resist temptation or corruption or injury, but more the attitude of "I'll bet you ten bucks I can take that Tyranid Warrior's head off with one swipe". Or something. ;) Like Fantasy Brettonnians. Always out to test themselves against the biggest, baddest beasties around.

[...]

Purity of Strength could almost be comparable to pre-Heresy World Eaters. Always testing themselves and each other to become stronger, and be the greatest warriors. I was thinking more of the pursuit of individual martial perfection/prowess, rather than the bloodlust and berserking and psycho-surgery. So maybe the Emperor's Children are a better example/comparison than the World Eaters.


I think we're going in the right direction with strength, but should it be limited to martial strength only? Or should that be the main focus of 'strength'

The ideas of a 'strength' Vocates that are constantly finding the biggest badest beasties to scrap kinda reminds me of the space wolves. Not that I think thats a bad thing, what do you guys think? Perhaps it could have more of a 'chivalric' curve to it? Goining back to the earlier 'dragon slaying' idea?
I'm still drawn to the idea of using a civilisation with spartan idealologies if the chapter goes in the direction of martial strength and prowess.


I think you could make it more 'chivalric' than the Space Wolves. In fact, from a personal standpoint, I'd personally prefer it. You could perhaps take some influence from the legends of St. George and the Dragon?

[...]

'Strength through Strife'


If you are looking for a historical reference, there have been lots of cultures in the past who have promoted martial strength as a virtue and a necessity. The Varangian Guard, for example, would make an excellent basis for a Chapter. There's the Almohads, or the Nubians, or the El Cid's Reconquista armies, or the pre-Teutonic, pre-Frankish Germanic tribes in Roman times. Personally, I've always thought a Julius Caesar-era Germanic Chapter would be good, provided a clear distinction could be made from the Space Vikings. And Imperial China has never been touched (though they might be better suited to the Guard).


--Thrace, Illyria, pre-Roman Italians, Celto-Iberians, medieval France...


Its the general idea of 'with your shield or on it' that appeals to me and the underlying belife that might is right that I would like to incorporate into the chapters home world. I think a civilisation with these kind of beliefs would be perfect to build a chapter on.



So, can we look at this idea and try to build it into something worthwhile? After trying to distill these quotes even further, we've got some sort of relentless DIY Chapter, where the homeworld offers up infants willingly to join the Astartes - that whole 'with it or on it' ideal. Constantly seeking to prove itself by fighting the biggest, strongest threats it can.

There were a bunch of other ideas and concepts, but I'll leave them there for now so as to promote discussion.

Nine, I think you should check out my Eagle Guard topic: Linky-dink.









Long live the Astartes Vocates!


Huzzah!
 
QUOTE (voi shet magir @ May 31 2011, 05:38 AM) 
That is an unexpectedly strong assertion from a dead person.

#9
Barret

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Forward the Vocates, and all. : )


Good to see the project resurfacing and gaining some momentum again! I know I have some work left to do on the T-Swords IA, again. I'm going to just rewrite the Purging of Shamash to centre around a "generic" Chaos uprising and not have it centre around the "fallen" Vocates Chapter. That said, it's been about a year since I really looked hard at the article, so if anyone has any thoughts, or if more come up as we continue to work on the project, I would not be averse to working on them some more.

I'm glad Herr Kommissar dredged up all my comments on the Purity of Strength Chapter, as it saved me the typing. :D To reiterate and add to what's been quoted above, I would really like not to see the moldering dead horse that is Sparta/Greco-Rome dragged out again. There are so many other sources of inspiration for a personal-strength-glorifying Chapter. While I do like the idea of the focus being on individual strength, I think it's well worth exploring how else "Purity of Strength" can be interpreted. Does it mean slaying the largest and fiercest or foes? Is it in the swiftest, most complete victories? Or something else...

Nine, I'm liking what you've posted up for ideas. Terran Marines are a great source of inspiration (and were a bit in the T-Swords), though they're a bit less...proud, I guess, than I envisage when I think "Purity of Strength". That said, both ways works excellently. From what you've got, I think they and the T-Swords would get along just fine. :wacko:


One of the other two things I'd really like to see us working on again are some of the Vocates' joint campaigns, like the Zarath Strand Reprisals and others. Admittedly, the Zarath Strand campaign should be being written by me, since I, y'know, volunteered to do so a while back, but I wanted to throw it out there again. The other thing is the "relationship chart" we had going, speaking even briefly into the relationships between all the Vocates Chapters. While I know the Vocates are far from roommates, as it were, it's still an idea that interests me, and that I think Maltheus would have delved into, no doubt seeking to infer deeper meanings.
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#10
Commissar Molotov

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I'm glad Herr Kommissar


Comrade Commissar, surely? :lol:


With regards to Shamash, the loss of a singular home system is awkward, but not insurmountable. I've written this in the Harvesters IA:

Fierce pogroms have been undertaken on all the worlds the Reapers recruited from in order to restore some measure of genetic purity to those godforsaken worlds. Inquisitorial reports suggest that over fourteen billion mutants were exterminated in a purge that lasted almost two years.


Those pogroms would almost certainly happen with the Vocates at the front, mercilessly venting their incandescent rage upon the helpless.... I love the grim darkness of 40k. :lol:

Plus, I always thought Thermo-Pylon E was an awesome story, and it sounds like something on a hive world, so I think it could be incredibly cool. Perhaps the Thousand Swords were one of the few Chapters able to hunt down the Reapers, and suffered exceptionally against them.

Genericism sucks.

To be fair though, mentioning Sparta did happen a long while before 300, which leads us to universal rule #53: The Vocates do it first, and best. :huh:

It strikes me the best thing we can do is a 'status report' of sorts. Work out where we are and what's happening, and where we can go from here.

By the way, I have these:

Posted ImagePosted Image

Posted ImagePosted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image



The Angels of Perdition: We need to decide which angle we're going for the AoP. Either it's AoP, and we make a new Mind Chapter (with the Shielding, etc.) or it's AoP, and we make a new Purity of Faith. This needs to be one of the things we do soon, so we know what angle we're going, and we can allocate the missing slots as necessary.

The Black Watch: Last I heard, Doc's transferred to Germany. And yet he seems to have worse internet than he did when he was in the depths of Iraq! ;) Either way, - The Purity of Form is a pretty decent one. Last I heard, he was editing the article slightly, but the article's been mostly complete, even back when they were the Iron Knights, so... I don't forsee them changing too much anyway.

The Castigators: Well, I don't forsee them changing too much, Vocates-wise, though it does remind me that Baraquiel could do with being detailed further. I did have more, but it was on C.com and when it crashed I lost it - it's one of the pages the waybackmachine doesn't seem to care about.

The Execrators - Well, I haven't heard from Toyship in over a year. I love the Execrators - awesome idea, awesome colour scheme, awesome name (But I'm biased). Last I read, Toyship was disatisfied with black and bone, though, so he was planning on changing the colour. I haven't heard from him, so I guess we ought to try to contact him - failing that, perhaps we could take the Chapter over? They do seem abandoned.

The Judicators - Well, Darrell's done one of his disappearing tricks. I'm not sure how 'complete' the Chapter is, though.

The Steel Guardians - I think we can consider this a Chapter that's dropped. Last I heard, CaptainB was fumbling around with a chapter called the Angelis Obscuras. I think we can consider Purity of Spirit firmly vacated.

The Sublimators - Well, Sig's working on these guys, so we at least know he's willing.

The Thousand Swords - Slight editwork required, but I think they're probably one of the most rounded Chapters of the assembled brethren.

The Warlords - AWOL's around, I think, but he doesn't post too much. I think PMing him might help. I'd be loath to remove them, because a number of the other articles mention them, so... well, I'll let you guys talk it out.

The Reapers - They need a purity, some detail about the Chapter pre-fall, and more edit-work.

Unknown Chapter - Purity of Mind/Faith, whichever Nine decides not to take. Barret's expressed some interest.

Unknown Chapter - Purity of Strength - Nine's working on these.

# The Reapers (The Harvesters) - The Purity of -

Edited by Commissar Molotov, 11 March 2008 - 01:29 AM.

 
QUOTE (voi shet magir @ May 31 2011, 05:38 AM) 
That is an unexpectedly strong assertion from a dead person.

#11
Nine_Breaker

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Well now you've done it, Mol!

After looking over my initial concepts and brainstorming off of them, I've decided to go the hard way and keep the Angels of Perdition as Purity of Mind.

First off, this means I'll have to drop a lot of the Imperial Creed links and religious themes and tighten up the other themes. I also want to move back to my original idea of the AoP as a very sinister chapter. Right now, they are in-your-face zealot warriors, but I want to move them back into the shadows. As the Castigators are all about genetic purity and destroying genetic impurities, the Angels of Perdition should be all about mental purity and destroying the minds of their enemies.

I see the new version of the Angels as employing a large variety of psychological warfare techniques and mind tricks to throw off their enemies right before dropping the hammer with heavy assault troops. This would be a great way to play up their librarians to, who would likely be the best able to bring out the deepest fears of the Angels' foes and create moral destroying illusions. The way I see it, their beliefs, organization, and combat doctrine should all revolve around the mind, either strengthening their own or destroying their enemies'.


Kinda running out of time, so I'll come back to discuss the Purity of Strength chapter later on.

#12
Commissar Molotov

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That sounds great. Do you have the Dark Angels codex? The way they describe Ezekiel, his 'mindworm', it ties into that. I like the idea of using Librarians to break the enemy, then having the Marines sledgehammer into them.

'In battle, Ezekiel uses his powers to reach deep into the mind of the enemy and encourage the growth of their fears, filling them with images of hopelessness and defeat that erode the willpower of even the most disciplined of warriors.'

'The Librarian hurls a bolt of psychic energy directly at the mind of the enemy, causing a deadly mental seizure that can devastate any foe capable of rational thought.'


I mean, ultimately, most Marines don't play fair. They don't line up on battlefields, they attack the enemy when they're off-balance. So it seems fitting to use the Librarians to disrupt the enemy, and then smash them aside with heavy assault troops. Shock and awe (or awe and shock, perhaps.)

So I can see this Chapter incorporating elements of the Night Lords and the Dark Angels, actually. More later - I need to go read IA: AOP to see what works and what doesn't.
 
QUOTE (voi shet magir @ May 31 2011, 05:38 AM) 
That is an unexpectedly strong assertion from a dead person.

#13
Nine_Breaker

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Off the top of my head, some things I'm considering dropping from the IA:
-everything about following the Imperial Creed
-most of the Kharthonian Purification stuff
-Ash raiders
-a good part of the current combat doctrine
-Commander Arys sidebar
-recruiting from the equivalent of Goliath gangers

Talking with Mol on MSN, a bunch of other cool concepts and inspirations came up.

A lot of these stemmed from a passage from my initial concept post.

"The Assyrians even found a way to conquer without fighting: spreading stories of their battles and frightening their opponents into submission"

Winning through fear and ruthlessly forcing the will of the strong upon the weak? Sounds like the start of something awesome! :(

This then led to looking how the Night Lords used this same method. They often broadcasted the terrified and agonized screams of their victims across airwaves to demoralize and break their foes as well as shut down enemy communications and send rather rude and discouraging messages. Before they even fell to Chaos, the Night Lords would adorn their armor with imagery of death, using fear as a weapon just as effectively as bolter and chainsword. Perhaps the Angels use similar tactics. Flooding enemy comms with prophesies of violence and death, picking at their paranoia and fear with subtle psychic manipulation, and going to battle with their armor and weapons adorned with all sorts of bones and other sinister imagery.

And going back to other old concepts, the AoP would hate weak psykers - such as those that invite daemonic possession upon themselves - for just existing. By eradicating these weak, unsanctioned psykers, they are strengthening the Imperium. Of course, this would be a good reason for the Angels to hate the Eldar. The Chapter's cult would revere the Emperor - he has the strongest mind. He powers the astronomicon, after all. He fights Chaos Gods in planes of existence unimaginable to us.

#14
Commissar Molotov

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Mhmm. Part of my idea stems from the attitude where if you go too far to one extreme, you begin to end up at the other. The Castigators (Purity of Flesh) and the Angels of Perdition (Purity of Mind) are two very different Chapters. In fact, they've likely grown to detest each other. And yet, they follow similar attitudes. Both of them hunting down and killing psykers... it's deliciously ironic.

Talking of delicious ironies, something you raised earlier, Nine - the Vocates Chapters were seen by some as heralding the start of a golden age - and yet that golden age didn't come. The Reapers betrayed the oath - an oath which is increasingly strained. Some of the Oathbrethren can't stand eachother... some of the Chapters are almost obscene parodies of what they were when they began... What would Baraquiel think? What would the Emperor think of the excesses carried out in His name?

Barret's working on Purity of Spirit, by the way, not Purity of Faith. Suggestions for the Faith Chapter are welcome.

I've begun working on my plans for the Zodiac, too which should be interesting. I'm also hoping to have a look at the AoP IA in greater detail to give you some ideas.



EDIT:

- The last Execrators Topic.

EDIT EDIT:

Posted Image

Explanation forthcoming!

Edited by Commissar Molotov, 10 March 2008 - 07:31 AM.

 
QUOTE (voi shet magir @ May 31 2011, 05:38 AM) 
That is an unexpectedly strong assertion from a dead person.

#15
Ferrus Manus

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I see the Purity of Faith is still unknown. If you guys would like i'd love to write up a chapter for it?
 
My WIP Space Marine Chapter

#16
Barret

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Okay, the Battle of Thermo Pylon E is going to be rewritten to be part of the pogroms and reprisals against the Reapers.


What I've got thus far of the Zarath Strand Reprisals:

893.M41 - 945.M41: The Zarath Strand Reprisal
The Zarath Strand is a dense arm of stars and nebulae in the galactic east. Although largely unexplored, due to the hazards of navigation the closely-packed stars and gas clouds present, several major shipping lanes pass through the Strand bringing foodstuffs, supplies and, most importantly, troops and munitions for the endless wars on the Imperium's borders.

The Zarath Strand Reprisal was begun by Chapter Master Zeuxis of the Thousand Swords after Ork pirates began to endanger shipping along the Zarath Strand. The Strand, located between two heavily industrialised planets within the Eckea Sector, is a vital supply route - one that could not be allowed to fall. When the Thousand Swords investigated, it soon became clear that the Orks actually belonged to two different Ork Leaders, Overboss Smashgrot and Warchief Krumskull. Ordinarily, such internicine affairs would not be worth the attentions of the Astartes, but the fallout from the war was endangering the flow of shipping along the Strand, leading to a drop in production. Ships were being boarded by one Klan and used as weapons against the other.

The Fourth Company of the Thousand Swords under Captain Barca, already known for their skill at fighting the Ork menace, were the first to be dispatched and spent several years attempting to safeguard the shipping lanes. However, after an Ordo Xenos investigation revealed the true scale of the two empires, both encompassing almost a dozen worlds, it was decided that more troops were needed if the Orks were to be culled at the very least, and exterminated if at all possible. The call for troops went out, a call that was answered by the Castigators and the Judicators


A minor point would be to perhaps give two different titles to the Ork Warbosses. Something like "Warchief Smashgrot" and "Boss Krumskull", to give a feeling of two different forces. If you name them both Warboss, it could perhaps sound a bit too similar, and while it's common for Orks to fight amongst themselves for really no reason, making it from two different clanz could give a simple, subtle explanation (Dem uvva gits iz weedy!) as well as letting us fight two completely different groups of the same species. You may be fighting some Cyboar-riding Snakebites and the stolen Imperial weaponry of some Deffskullz, so it adds a little spice to the campaign.

I think the boarding of an Ork Hulk would be an awesome climax to the campaign. A Hulk is sent from one Ork world toward the other, but looks like it's going to be making a drop-off by one of the Industrial worlds on the Zarath Strand. The Marines board it, and turn the Hulk against one of the Ork planets, sending the ship slamming into the planet's surface and causing massive structural plate damage. This would allow the Marines to focus their attacks on the other Ork world (I would imagine having two different enemies fighting them would prove to be difficult), eventually purifying it to the extent of satisfaction to the commanding Captain/Master of the campaign.

I imagine the war would start first by securing the two industrial worlds, then once they are in relatively safe hands, the Marines could begin moving against the Orks themselves. Most of the fighting, I assume, would happen in space as landing on an Ork world would be suicide even if the three full Chapters landed on the surface. Space Marines are the Emperor's Finest, but there are limits.

Ground fighting would probably occur on the industrial worlds themselves, as they secure the planets and purge them of invaders. Then strive to recapture/scuttle any space vessels in the Ork fleet to hinder their ability to close the Zarath Strand's supply chain to the Imperium, slam a Hulk into one Ork world, then set about purging the other (Exterminatus?) once a perimeter around the planet can be maintained.


Need to kind of balance everyone's need to have their Chapter seem awesome, too. Perhaps mention three big actions where each Chapter did something awesome, or work together for one really awesome action that shows off all three.

That's a good idea. I'm thinking of detailing four engagements. One for each of the three Chapters, and one cooperative attack on the final stronghold of the final boss.


Although he now wore the white livery and bloodied hand symbol of the First Company, he maintained all the trophies and heraldry he had earned as Captain of the Fourth fighting the brutal Orks in the Zarath Strand Reprisals. A massive steel jaw was bolted to his gorget, caging his face behind vicious teeth, and a long pair of horns, torn from the head of the same Warboss who had given him the crater-like scar across his forehead, jutted out above his head. Orkish icons, crude glyphs representing death, veterancy and marital prowess dangled from the horns and were inscribed on his greaves. It was little wonder how he'd earned his appellation "Ork-Killer".




Notes for Purity of Spirit:

The following is more representative of the evolving train of thought as Molly and I hashed over the concept, rather than a more definitive outline or summary of the Chapter.

Purity of Spirit == Zarathustra. The Chapter is the bridge and guardian between mortal man (beast) and the Emperor/Emperor's Vision (enlightenment).

Maybe not so much that they are actively enlightening humanity, but they keep humans (and each other) from straying from the correct path. They're like wardens, if the Imperium is a prison and they keep mankind from hurting itself and others while they "serve their time" and are ready to be released, enlightened. In order to serve mankind, they cease to be a part of it. While that's true for all Marines, the Spirit Chapter takes it further, changing their very souls/spirits to something more and also less than human, just as they do their bodies.

'Spirit' means their soul, I think. It is not flesh that makes a man a man, it is his soul. Therein lives emotion, desires and ambitions, the good things and the bad things that seperate man from beast. The Spirit Chapter, in order to remain pure and safeguard mankind (whether he wants it or not) cut out that part of themselves as they would a broken limb and replace it with something cold and pure. A bionic hand for the flesh, and the unflinching, unyielding "steel" of the Chapter cult.

I'm trying to draw links between what his done to a human's body to make him into a Space Marine and what this Chapter does to his soul. Perhaps the Iron Hands "flesh/soul is weak" idea isn't a good one. Instead of eradicating it, they raise it somehow, clean it of the trappings of humanity and change it to suit. Perhaps they are something like the old description of angels. They might look human, but they are not. They do not act or think or feel like humans, and they are terrifying for it.

Apotheosis
With the Blood Angels, and really with most Space Marines, they retain their humanity. They're super-human and genetically engineered, yes, but they still think, feel and act like humans. I don't think I'm explaining myself very well, but I'm looking for something different. Were you to look upon one of these Marines, only the form would be human, but inside was something...else. Not a Vulcan or a machine, but something that is no longer human. Something wiped clean of humanity and replaced with a messenger of God(-Emperor) who doesn't think like you or feel like you or even understand what it is to be you. Terrifying, utterly driven and completely alien, but there to protect you and guide you in the Emperor's light, whether you want it or not. Wardens in the prison that is unevolved humanity, overseeing your rehabilitation into something else, something that will no longer require them.

Gav Thorpe:
'Space Marines forsake their humanity to preserve the humanity of others. This means that they only vaguely remember what it was like to feel the cold, or be upset, or tired, or feel pain, or be scared. They are aware that humans suffer from these frailties, but will often forget that humans are simply not capable of performing deeds that are second nature to their battlebrothers.'

I think that mental and spiritual apotheosis from human to Astartes is probably the direction I'd like to push. Right now I'm think that they've been so "purified" that they now some terrible, Lovecraftian Other. Not Lovecraftian in the tentacles sense, but in that they are just...Other. Like descriptions I've read of Old Testament angels.

Oh, or this, from War of the Worlds, maybe:
"Yet across the gulf of space, minds that are to our minds as ours are to those of the beasts that perish, intellects vast and cool and unsympathetic"

How do they relate to other Astartes?
I'm not sure. Not disdainful or arrogant, I think. They would accept other Astartes as brethren and comrades-in-arms, all fighting to the same end, if in different ways. So long as that stays true, the Chapter is, if not friendly, then honourable. Hence their involvement in the Vocates (especially since it would have begun before these transformations were really taking place). A league of Astartes dedicated to purity would appeal to them.

But alongside that, I see them as being functionally, or at least perceived as, sociopaths, moreso perhaps than Marines in general. They effectively have no internal, or at least recognizable, morality or code of ethics, taking everything from the Emperor and trusting nothing that comes from within (themselves or others). That which comes from inside is suspect and not to be trusted. Only the spirit of the Emperor is truly pure. The Primarchs would be next to the Emperor in purity of soul, hence what comes from them can be trusted (mostly). Masters and Captains, because they draw from the Primarchs (who draw from the Emperor) and because they have been the most purified (or they would not be commanders) can also be trusted (but not as much as the Primarchs). Thus it passes downwards, so that they rawest recruit can do nothing but what he's told, while a Chapter Master can act with impunity, more or less.

Perhaps the mirror cultists believe that when they fight alongside other Marines, they're showing them what they could be. In effect, they are the reflection, and it's up to the other Chapter to face the truth and follow their shining example.

'What Comes from Within'?
Every thought, every feeling, every impulse, everything that comes from the brain, basically. Or the soul. Each recruit would be wiped clean in some manner, so that they are basically automata, but as they age and build up that purity in their souls, since it is no longer coming from within... They turn their souls from lamps into mirrors. The light they generate is not their own, but a reflection of the Emperor shining through them.

Men fail, weaken, turn against each other and die. The Emperor succeeds, lives on enternally and is the salvation of mankind. Thus, these Marines seek to cease to be men, but to be a fraction of the Emperor, reflecting him from within themselves. They are not the sun itself, but rays of sunlight, made of and sent by the Emperor. Because they turn themselves into such, they can do no wrong, though they can fail from weakness of spirit. A cracked mirror reflects imperfectly.

The Emperor lives in and works through all men, but this Chapter seeks to purify and purge away the humanity to let the Emperor shine through more clearly? Cleaning away the mud to reveal the diamond within. The end product is perhaps somewhat similar in classification, but is something completely Other in effect.



I think that idea of a mirror, both internal and external, each reflecting and showing the other, is something that expresses the theme I'm groping at. I think I'll drop the Lovecraftian Other extreme, as it doesn't really properly fit, except in those who are the most Pure. They would always be striving for their internal mirror to reflect the Emperor, and their external, literal, mirror to show the ideals of the Chapter, that apotheosis.

Perhaps the 'Other' could work for the Librarians: otherkin, communing with the Emperor (like the Angelic Choirs - like the Metatron - you can't converse directly with God, the Angels speak for Him); emphasises the eldritch in the Librarians. They would be something Else entirely. Not even really Astartes, but pure conduits both revered and utterly feared. I think they would have less of a prominence than in other Chapters, being guardians of purity (and themselves very well guarded) while the Chaplains and Captains are the active leaders in matters martial and spiritual.


Chaplains would be almost like commissars, constantly watching and guaging the purity of the brethren. Once a mirror is cracked it cannot be repaired.

Librarians are the gargoyles that line the path to purity; mirror-helmed and faceless, crackling with a nimbus of ethereal light, they reflect only the viewer's true self.

Captains, avatars of ascending purity and apotheosis lead the way and reflect down the light of the Emperor that the brethren may receive it and be filled and purified.

Techmarines, with their divided loyalties and devotion to the Machine God are excluded from the Mirror-Cult and are heavily segregated from the rest of the Chapter. Though they can never truly attain Purity of Spirit, the Techmarines have blended the worship of the Emperor-as-Omnissiah with the Mirror-Cult and, as the Mirror-Cultists seek to reflect the Emperor within as they already do without, the Techmarines seek to mirror the Omnissiah without as they do within. Indeed, they seek mechanisation at a rate beyond the obsessive dedication of the Magos' themselves.

Every one opts for the Rite of Pure Thought, wherein the entire right hemisphere of the brain is replaced with a cogitator engine linked directly with the left hemisphere, and most have entirely replaced their faces with that of the machine at the minimum. Thus they do give up their own identity to be subsumed into the Emperor-Omnissiah.

Also, how does it tie into the mirror-cult? That's perhaps the most important element.

Well, the Marines seek to mirror the Warrior-Emperor, the Savior-Emperor. So the Techmarines seek to mirror the Omnissiah-Emperor. For the Marines, they external, fleshy mirroring is done as part of the transition from human to Astartes, and they must make a mirror of their souls. For the Techmarines, the internal mirroring is done though the Rite of Pure Thought and their indoctrination into the Cult of the Omnissiah, so they must mirror the Omnissiah-Emperor in their flesh.



What if, in their murals and decorations, they replaced the images of the Emperor with mirrors that are somehow psychicly laden? Only the perfectly pure could look upon that reflection without great discomfort or even insanity.
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Well of course a fan of the Iron Hands would pop up in a metal-hat and cyber-monocle and proclaim "Preposterous!" while waving his power cane at the nay-sayer.

#17
Heru

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I haven't heard from him, so I guess we ought to try to contact him - failing that, perhaps we could take the Chapter over? They do seem abandoned.

I think that's less to do with the Chapter being abandoned, and more to do with the fact the Vocates forums became a ghost town.

Anyways I too much prefered his original scheme over the new one he posted.
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2nd Row: Iron Raptors, Immortals, Imperial Monarchs, Starbreakers, The Shadow Kings, The Fallen Lords, Black Wasps, Black Oracles, Dream Eaters

#18
Commissar Molotov

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Barret - you missed one of my favourite bits about the mirror cult... I have to find it in my MSN archives...

Commissar Molotov says:
I was thinking about the mirror as an "In case of emergency, break glass" situation. If you need guidance, look in the mirror. What do you see looking back? An Astartes. There's a bit in Brothers of the Snake where Priad looks at his lightning claw and in his reflection he sees his face (and thinks he looks too vulnerable, too human.) he puts his helmet on and sees something altogether more reassuring. A Space Marine. - If you want guidance, consult the mirror, be reminded of your place in the Imperium, of the role the Emperor has devised for you.



------

'The Clockface Zodiac'

The clockface zodiac? It sounds like something a serial killer would use. Anyway, my ideas for the new Zodiac revolved around the concept of a clockface. It's based on one of REFUSE's rants about the nature of Chaos and the eight-pointed star. The zodiac and Maltheus's theories provide a nice counterpoint to the actual truths of the Vocates. His dreams expound the theory that the Fourteenth Founding Chapters were the start of a golden age - something which patently hasn't happened, which makes his work all the more tragic. In a sense, the Vocates Chapters are bound by tragedy.

My idea was for what I'm calling the 'cardinal points' (12, 3, 6 and 9) to be various Chapters that are opposed. Say that Nine's Angels of Purity (Mind) was twelve, and the Castigators were six. Then we have another binary pair for three and nine. My idea was that Chapters at 1 and 2 would be midway between the purities of 12 and 3 and relatively far away from six.

For example, I see Strength as being 'physical'; Form and Deeds, too. Whilst 'spirit' and 'faith' would perhaps fall closer to Mind.

Does that explain it at all? We'd need to work out the Cardinal points, though I quite like the Mind/Body split; we'd just need to work out three and six, and then we can start to slot the Chapters in.

Edited by Commissar Molotov, 11 March 2008 - 01:24 AM.

 
QUOTE (voi shet magir @ May 31 2011, 05:38 AM) 
That is an unexpectedly strong assertion from a dead person.

#19
Nine_Breaker

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After managing to get my head around the concepts for Purity of Spirit, I found them really interesting. The ideas need some ironing out, but they are interesting (if weird and complex) nonetheless. The image of nameless, emotionless, conscienceless marines who refer to themselves as "This one" really appeals to me (I realize that some of this wasn't in your initial ideas, but still). Recruits might go through some truly horrifying stuff to erase their sense of individual identity and humanity, though.

What if, in their murals and decorations, they replaced the images of the Emperor with mirrors that are somehow psychically laden? Only the perfectly pure could look upon that reflection without great discomfort or even insanity.

This is one part I don't like much. It smacks of Chaos for one. Next, I don't envision this chapter as one that keeps outsiders away from their ships and/or fortress monastery, and having a bunch of mirrors around that can break somebody's mind apart would be plain rude. In a heavily superstitious place like the Imperium, I'm sure huge mirrors in the form of the Emperor would be disturbing enough without psychic tampering.


We'd need to work out the Cardinal points, though I quite like the Mind/Body split; we'd just need to work out three and six, and then we can start to slot the Chapters in.

Surely you mean points 3 and 9? :wub: Anyhow, I think there could be many options for these two polar points:
* Form and Spirit
* Strength and Faith
* Deed and Word (problem being we don't have a Purity of Word, but I think there are a couple chapters that can be shuffled to this slot)

#20
Commissar Molotov

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I actually really like 'Deed' and 'Word' as three and nine (see, I paid attention this time!). It's a nice dichotomy. Purity of word though... hrm. I could see the Thousand Swords as purity of word, with the way their fora set up to argue and refine issues and tactics... as to the Judicators, perhaps?

I mean you could see 'Purity of Strength' as sitting between 'Deed' and 'Flesh', whilst 'Faith' could sit comfortably between 'Word' and 'Mind', perhaps.

I mean, as is:

(Mind) - AOP
(Form) - Black Watch
(Flesh) - Castigators
(Hate) - Execrators
(Purpose) - Judicators
(Faith) - Unknown
(Spirit) - Unknown
(Deed) - Sublimators
(Focus) - Thousand Swords
(Heart) - Warlords
(Strength) - Unknown
(Unknown) - Reapers

EDIT:

# The Sublimators - The Purity of Deed
'Words do not win wars, deeds do. Faith without deeds is worthless. You must glorify the Emperor with every action, that every Man gives all he has for the Imperium of Mankind. But one must not only act, they must act in the name of the Emperor in a way which glorifies the Emperor's name. It is such deeds that nurture the roots of the Imperium with the blood of heroes.'



So we've definitely got an opposition there, between the purity of deed and a purity of word.

Edited by Commissar Molotov, 11 March 2008 - 02:00 AM.

 
QUOTE (voi shet magir @ May 31 2011, 05:38 AM) 
That is an unexpectedly strong assertion from a dead person.

#21
Nine_Breaker

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After about 3 minutes with a pencil and index card, I came up with the following Vocates Clockface:

12- Angels of Perdition (Mind)
1- [Chapter] (Spirit)
2- [Chapter] (Faith)
3- Thousand Swords (Word)
4- Execrators (Hate)
5- Warlords (Heart)
6- Castigators (Flesh)
7- Black Watch (Form)
8- Alpha Wolves (Strength)
9- Sublimators (Deed)
10- Reapers (Focus)
11- Judicators (Purpose)

There was a little shuffling in the process, specifically the 1kSwords moving to Purity of Word and the Reapers replacing them as Purity of Focus. I also gave a stand-in name to the Purity of Strength chapter, since I was sick of saying that so much. I like it, personally, but it's certainly up for review. Keep in mind this was all done in a matter of seconds, so some points may not be awfully accurate.

#22
Commissar Molotov

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Some of it I disagree with, some of it I disagreed with but I'm starting to see the sense of, and some I agree with. Heart and spirit being on the word side?

I think I like the bottom-left side of your clock, with the Black Watch and the Alpha Wolves (cool name) sandwiched between the Castigators and the Sublimators.

Hrm, this is something that'll need other viewpoints before we proceed, I think.

After all - I can see the Judicators being Purity of Word because they dispense the Emperor's Judgement, and they believe that the Emperor speaks through their balancers. I can see the 1kS being Word, because the fora. We have the Judicators at 'purpose', the 1kS at 'focus' and then Purity of Word up in the air. I can see the 1KS being at Word, and then the Reapers being Focus...
 
QUOTE (voi shet magir @ May 31 2011, 05:38 AM) 
That is an unexpectedly strong assertion from a dead person.

#23
Tyrannicide

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The Astartes Vocates, is back. Putting this as simple as possible: sweet.

Alpha Wolves:
Strong meritocracy would translate well with these marines. With the ideas you’ve listed Nine Breaker, they seem more of a "Savlar Chem Dogs" chapter rather than a "Death Korps of Kreig” type. All is well though, I like that idea better than the latter (a siege chapter comes to mind, which has been done too much). The Alpha Wolves can be the chapter, no one really likes, they are not appreciated, and are the rough hard asses of the bunch. You describe them as possibly taking inhalants, that’s a great idea. It hasn’t been done at all really, and they could be marines that originated from some gangs, underneath a hive. The direction your taking these guys is perfect, and after all, the Vocates is in need of a chapter that is a load of tough son of a b****’s. I don’t want to get ahead of myself, but when thinking of a color scheme, the first that comes to mind, would be the two dominant colors of orange & grey. I think it fits their asperous personalities perfectly, what about you? Will the wolf symbolized in their name, relate to the chapter at all? The Alpha part is definitely down their alley, but wolves? Lastly, for an unknown reason, I see them also using scouts extensively. Not too much in the reconnaissance part, but more of an ‘always filtering new candidates‘ approach.

Clockface Zodiac:
I understand this perfectly. For anyone in the U.S. (mainly) there is a show by the name of Lost. I was watching it a couple of weeks ago, and in the particular episode, a character by the name of Desmond transports back and forth from the past to the present. He forgets everyone in the present, and thinks it is 1996, but in reality it is 2005 or such. The only way he finally can calm himself and figure out a way to stay in the present time, is to find a constant. Now, I can see this relating to the conversation, how, your saying? Well I see a constant here and it would most likely be the clock‘s hands, themselves (don’t take this as literal as it sounds). The hands change through time. I see the Honor Guard representing the hands, connecting all the chapters in the Vocates 14th founding.

*So any other ideas for the constant or connection? (I hope I didn’t loose to many on that last part.)

Edited by Darth Potato, 11 March 2008 - 03:53 AM.

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#24
Barret

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After managing to get my head around the concepts for Purity of Spirit, I found them really interesting. The ideas need some ironing out, but they are interesting (if weird and complex) nonetheless. The image of nameless, emotionless, conscienceless marines who refer to themselves as "This one" really appeals to me (I realize that some of this wasn't in your initial ideas, but still). Recruits might go through some truly horrifying stuff to erase their sense of individual identity and humanity, though.

What if, in their murals and decorations, they replaced the images of the Emperor with mirrors that are somehow psychically laden? Only the perfectly pure could look upon that reflection without great discomfort or even insanity.

This is one part I don't like much. It smacks of Chaos for one. Next, I don't envision this chapter as one that keeps outsiders away from their ships and/or fortress monastery, and having a bunch of mirrors around that can break somebody's mind apart would be plain rude. In a heavily superstitious place like the Imperium, I'm sure huge mirrors in the form of the Emperor would be disturbing enough without psychic tampering.



Weird and complex for sure. :) I'm glad you're liking the ideas thus far! You're spot on about what I have in mind for them, with the "nameless, emotionless, conscienceless". I started thinking about their recruitment practices today, and I think it would be a combination of the brutal "Full Metal Jacket" indoctrination stuff (times a million) with psychic testing, like the cave on Dagobah (also times a million).

As for the painting with the mirrors, that was a random thought I had. When the Last Supper was originally painted, the face of Jesus was left blank. My thought was of a huge mural of the Emperor with all eighteen Primarchs, and the Emperor was replaced with a mirror that showed everyone who looked upon it their inner self. For anyone true to the Emperor, the worst would be some discomfort. Only the most base and heretical would be driven mad by it.

--edit--
That said, it would likely be placed somewhere where all visitors would have to walk past it, and thus be judged.



The Clock

I'm really liking the clock so far. However (you knew there was a but, didn't you?), I'm not really keen on reclassifying the T-Swords to "Word", as I really don't think it suits them. I briefly tried to explain why to Molly on MSN, but I'll say it here for clarity. To me, "Purity of Word" implies that the "word", in this case the T-Swords endless documentation and refining of the craft of war, is the overriding emphasis and all else supports that. The T-Swords, to me, are the opposite. Their entire focus, their purpose and their reason for existence is to kill, kill and kill again. It's all they do and all they can do. The writing and debating and documenting supports that so that they learn all the ways there are to kill and invent new ones. I think calling them "Purity of Word" would be like saying that the Orks are a race of mechanics. Sure, some of them are dedicated to building machines and they all use them, but their machines are not the reason for their existence and they work on them only to support what they really do.


All of that said, I like the idea of the T-Swords (Purity supports fighting) opposing the Reapers/Harvesters (fighting supports Purity), and the Sublimators (act for the deed's own sake) opposing the Judicators (act for the higher cause). Having the T-Swords opposing the Reapers would make Thermo Pylon E all the more poignant, and I have a vision of a huge cast-iron effigy of the zodiac clock in the main hall of the T-Swords Fortress-Monastery, with one arm ripped brutally off, leaving the T-Swords forever alone against the heresy. Not literaly, of course, but I can see that being how they think of it.


I'm liking the Alpha Wolves thus far (though I instinctually want name to be Alpha Dogs, or something less "noble"), especially the combat drugs and shortened lifespans.

Edited by Barret, 11 March 2008 - 04:39 AM.

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#25
Commissar Molotov

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As for the painting with the mirrors, that was a random thought I had. When the Last Supper was originally painted, the face of Jesus was left blank. My thought was of a huge mural of the Emperor with all eighteen Primarchs, and the Emperor was replaced with a mirror that showed everyone who looked upon it their inner self. For anyone true to the Emperor, the worst would be some discomfort. Only the most base and heretical would be driven mad by it.


Emperor as Mirror-Face == Cool.

So we have:

Apotheosis - the Idea of turning a Human into something almost God-Like.

A soul so 'pure' that they become almost inhuman, unrecognisable. (Librarians especially)

Consumed by the mirror-cult - both the Emperor and the Marine are mirrors, reflecting back at each other. But the Marines are imperfect mirrors - they spend their entire lives attempting to refine themselves so as to better reflect the Emperor.

Perhaps every Marine carries a mirror (akin to the Iron Snakes' flasks of water)
 
QUOTE (voi shet magir @ May 31 2011, 05:38 AM) 
That is an unexpectedly strong assertion from a dead person.




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