Love Slaanesh, HATE Noise Marines...

[refuse]

Another choice (or set) through signatures:

 

Slaanesh as cardinal sins

http://forum.emperorschildren.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/signature2.gif

 

Masochistic/Blood Letting/Over drug use

http://forum.emperorschildren.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/thenoise.jpg

 

Sadistic

http://forum.emperorschildren.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/dieecnet.jpg

 

Depression

http://forum.emperorschildren.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/disturbed~1.jpg

 

Oblivion, emptyness

http://forum.emperorschildren.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/disturbed.jpg

 

Chemical use

http://forum.emperorschildren.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/Feelme.jpg

 

Emptyness, tunnel vision (pun), eyes as the doorways to the soul

http://forum.emperorschildren.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/visitme.jpg

 

Torture

http://forum.emperorschildren.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/gethookedbig2.jpg

 

Logic

http://forum.emperorschildren.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/volenti2.jpg

volenti non fit injuria - "to a willing person, no injury is done."

 

Hellraiseresque

http://forum.emperorschildren.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/Daemons.jpg

http://forum.emperorschildren.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/Daemons2.jpg

 

Hatred/Wrath/self loathing

http://forum.emperorschildren.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/demons4.jpg

 

Denial, self worth

http://forum.emperorschildren.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/metaphor.jpg

 

Anger, protective

http://forum.emperorschildren.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/Keepout1.jpg

[GreenSlime]

Well GW are a product of, and have to live by, the same rules that regulate advertising in this world. As such yes there is more of a taboo on sex than on blood, guts and gore. We can argue till the sun goes down on the philosophy and roots of this belief but the fact is some issues are more sensative than others. I wouldn't say it is really double standard just marketting sense, especially considering who GW are trying to market too. People are more comfortable with characters lobbing people's heads off than getting naked. So unless there is a change in society I don't really see it as being solely due to GW unless they want to lead some cultural revolution, which may not be the best thing for business ;)

I completely agree. The simple fact is, Slaanesh is sex. The Ruinous Powers are supposed to be the embodiments or archetypes of the base emotions of sentient races, so Khorne for violence, Tzeench for deceit, Nurgle for … (I’m not entirely sure about that one, even thought I play Death Guard B) ).

 

Slaanesh then stands for the unrestrained pursuit of pleasure, and I think that means physical sensation rather than the aesthetic pleasures of art, music or literature. Somehow I don’t see a follower of Slaanesh getting off by reading The Brothers Karamazov while a Mozart piano concerto plays in the background :P .

 

So I see Slaanesh as being about hedonistic over indulgence in such things as alcohol, drugs and sex, and the latter most of all. Think of the Marquis de Sade in space, not just the violent aspects but the whole “libertine philosophy”. I don’t recommend reading his books as background research, as they’re very badly written, but if anyone really wants to, Philosophy in the Bedroom is a fairly short and concise insight into what de Sade, and hence Slaanesh, was all about.

 

Of course, social convention means that there is no way GW would ever be explicit about what Slaanesh really is.

 

As for Noise Marines Im guessing it was the easiest way to personify and model certain aspects of Slaanesh. Art, poetry and icecream may well envoke the same feelings as loud music but they don't exactly lend themselves to modelling easily. Marines running around with guitars on the other hand is both absurd yet cool at the same time. It is the same with Khorne as they are not simply moronic rambling beasts, but the easiest way to market and model them is show them running around with everything make out of skulls.

I’ve always thought Noise Marines were a ridiculous idea, but what else would we expect when the concept was based on a song by an obscure heavy metal band.

 

Back in 1991 a British heavy metal band called D-Rok made an album called Oblivion, and all of the songs on it were based on the WH40K universe. Hardly a classic, but enjoyable enough (I still have a copy on tape). The first track was called Noise Marines and I think it was a bit of a joke on the band’s part, they were just having fun with the idea of Heavy Metal Chaos Space Marines using guitars as weapons.

 

Two years later we got 2nd Edition, with Chaos Space Marines troops that embodied their particular Gods. Violent Psychopath, Scheming Sorcerer and Disgusting Disease Carrier were no problem, but Drug-Crazed Space beater would have been beyond the pale. So I think GW just picked up the Noise Marines idea from the Oblivion album and used it with little or no attempt to develop it into something that might actually make sense in the game, and now we’re stuck with the ridiculous things.

 

If I ever decided to play an Emperor’s Children army I certainly would not use Noise Marines. I’d either just go with Chaos Space Marine squads with the Mark of Slaanesh or come up with something of my own invention for elites. Maybe not even Chaos Space Marines at all, but perhaps some kind of fallen Adepta Sororitas.

[refuse]

Well GW are a product of, and have to live by, the same rules that regulate advertising in this world. As such yes there is more of a taboo on sex than on blood, guts and gore. We can argue till the sun goes down on the philosophy and roots of this belief but the fact is some issues are more sensative than others. I wouldn't say it is really double standard just marketting sense, especially considering who GW are trying to market too. People are more comfortable with characters lobbing people's heads off than getting naked. So unless there is a change in society I don't really see it as being solely due to GW unless they want to lead some cultural revolution, which may not be the best thing for business ;)

I completely agree. The simple fact is, Slaanesh is sex. The Ruinous Powers are supposed to be the embodiments or archetypes of the base emotions of sentient races, so Khorne for violence, Tzeench for deceit, Nurgle for … (I’m not entirely sure about that one, even thought I play Death Guard :) ).

 

Slaanesh then stands for the unrestrained pursuit of pleasure, and I think that means physical sensation rather than the aesthetic pleasures of art, music or literature. Somehow I don’t see a follower of Slaanesh getting off by reading The Brothers Karamazov while a Mozart piano concerto plays in the background :( .

 

So I see Slaanesh as being about hedonistic over indulgence in such things as alcohol, drugs and sex, and the latter most of all. Think of the Marquis de Sade in space, not just the violent aspects but the whole “libertine philosophy”. I don’t recommend reading his books as background research, as they’re very badly written, but if anyone really wants to, Philosophy in the Bedroom is a fairly short and concise insight into what de Sade, and hence Slaanesh, was all about.

 

Of course, social convention means that there is no way GW would ever be explicit about what Slaanesh really is.

Ok.

I disagree.

Slaanesh isn't sex. It is debasement. The erosion of your morals and ethics. Leaving you hollow and souless. Not a souless killer, but worse. Pleasure is a means to wear people down.

If you read the libera chaotica Slaanesh, you can see, sex is the "attraction" but no the addiction.

 

The chaos gods were about the hollowness of relying on others, not yourself.

 

Tzeentch, the need for someone else to change things.

Nurlge, the need to survive, live, and rely on someone to save you.

Khorne, the need to kill or destroy those that you blame for your problems.

Slaanesh, the need to hide in sensation, addiction to hide your own failings.

 

They are the polar opposites of self realization. Back then (in Slaves and Lost and the Damned), the books indicated that stronger personalities, those that had mastered themselves were reborn time and time again. The Old Ones were the original race to do this, and the Shamans were the name for humans that did this. Chaos was the force that ate the weak. And the more weak the fell to chaos, the stronger chaos became. Indifference and lack of personal responsibility were the themes. It is very much like Brave New World, 1984, Atlas Shrugged in that aspect.

 

i.e. if you can't accomplish something, pray to the gods for deliverence. Don't try to do it yourself.

So if you can't overcome an enemy, pray to Khorne for strength. Can't deal with reality, pray to Slaanesh for a moment of "forgetfulness". Don't like the world as it is, pray to Tzeentch. Don't want to die, suffering, pray to Nurgle.

 

Or you can overcome it yourself, and gain the "perfect mind". Personal responsibility.

 

For Slaanesh

Sex is a weak hook. Drug is a weak hook. Rock and roll is a weak hook. Something that is easy to understand, and points out the "moment of forgetfulness" or "absolution of personal responsibility". Can't deal with life, have some chemicals. Can't deal with reality, "hook up" to make yourself better. But when you "sober up", or "wake up" you feel just as bad as before. Slaanesh is a metaphor for your personal "daemons". That is kind of the point of my Sigs above.

 

"drugs/pain/sadism/masochism" as excuses for personal responsibility. Think of them as Slaanesh's Absolution. Does it fix anything? Nope, but for a few minutes you can ignore what ails you, then the absolution wears off, and you are where you were. Next time, it takes a little more absolution. Change absolution with experience, or music, or sex, or drugs and you get the idea.

 

Chaos is the "release" from personal responsibility. Gods that are "real" and active to absolve you of your own failings. "Slaanesh demands I torture you and send your soul to her".

The Dark Eldar stories usually show chaos better then the chaos stories. The Dark Eldar know they are just holding off the inevitable, their entire society is based around self indulgence, the bully syndrome (I kill you, or you kill me. The weak serve the strong) and the fact they are doomed from birth.

 

If you look at the Eldar, they use to serve Gods. Because they were unfocused and decadent. They then became strict, rules following, and developing their selves by walking and mastering all of the aspects of life. But they learned this lesson to late.

 

Chaos, psychers and the Imperium are the facets of all the aspects of humanity. Humans need to rise above, master themselves before they consign themselves to the same fate as the Eldar. We see the "1984" world in the Imperium, where the "better future" for humanity is to deny them being human. Remove their ability to think, thus to sin, or fail in personal responsibility. Look at the doctrines and sayings, they all imply the citizens need to be good, the Emperor is watching. We see the perfect world of the Tau in Brave New World. Everything is shiney and pretty, as long as you are inside the cities.

 

The Chaos powers are the absolution of self responsibility. They are the easy path to blaming others. The key in 40k is that if you call for help, absolving yourself of sin, someone will answer. But the cost may be higher then you think.

http://forum.emperorschildren.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/metaphor.jpg

[Lord_Caerolion]

Very good post, Refuse, I'd never thought of the Chaos Gods like that before.

[Dammeron]

Well GW are a product of, and have to live by, the same rules that regulate advertising in this world. As such yes there is more of a taboo on sex than on blood, guts and gore. We can argue till the sun goes down on the philosophy and roots of this belief but the fact is some issues are more sensative than others. I wouldn't say it is really double standard just marketting sense, especially considering who GW are trying to market too. People are more comfortable with characters lobbing people's heads off than getting naked. So unless there is a change in society I don't really see it as being solely due to GW unless they want to lead some cultural revolution, which may not be the best thing for business ;)

I completely agree. The simple fact is, Slaanesh is sex. The Ruinous Powers are supposed to be the embodiments or archetypes of the base emotions of sentient races, so Khorne for violence, Tzeench for deceit, Nurgle for … (I’m not entirely sure about that one, even thought I play Death Guard ;) ).

 

Slaanesh then stands for the unrestrained pursuit of pleasure, and I think that means physical sensation rather than the aesthetic pleasures of art, music or literature. Somehow I don’t see a follower of Slaanesh getting off by reading The Brothers Karamazov while a Mozart piano concerto plays in the background :P .

 

So I see Slaanesh as being about hedonistic over indulgence in such things as alcohol, drugs and sex, and the latter most of all. Think of the Marquis de Sade in space, not just the violent aspects but the whole “libertine philosophy”. I don’t recommend reading his books as background research, as they’re very badly written, but if anyone really wants to, Philosophy in the Bedroom is a fairly short and concise insight into what de Sade, and hence Slaanesh, was all about.

 

Of course, social convention means that there is no way GW would ever be explicit about what Slaanesh really is.

 

As for Noise Marines Im guessing it was the easiest way to personify and model certain aspects of Slaanesh. Art, poetry and icecream may well envoke the same feelings as loud music but they don't exactly lend themselves to modelling easily. Marines running around with guitars on the other hand is both absurd yet cool at the same time. It is the same with Khorne as they are not simply moronic rambling beasts, but the easiest way to market and model them is show them running around with everything make out of skulls.

I’ve always thought Noise Marines were a ridiculous idea, but what else would we expect when the concept was based on a song by an obscure heavy metal band.

 

Back in 1991 a British heavy metal band called D-Rok made an album called Oblivion, and all of the songs on it were based on the WH40K universe. Hardly a classic, but enjoyable enough (I still have a copy on tape). The first track was called Noise Marines and I think it was a bit of a joke on the band’s part, they were just having fun with the idea of Heavy Metal Chaos Space Marines using guitars as weapons.

 

Two years later we got 2nd Edition, with Chaos Space Marines troops that embodied their particular Gods. Violent Psychopath, Scheming Sorcerer and Disgusting Disease Carrier were no problem, but Drug-Crazed Space beater would have been beyond the pale. So I think GW just picked up the Noise Marines idea from the Oblivion album and used it with little or no attempt to develop it into something that might actually make sense in the game, and now we’re stuck with the ridiculous things.

 

If I ever decided to play an Emperor’s Children army I certainly would not use Noise Marines. I’d either just go with Chaos Space Marine squads with the Mark of Slaanesh or come up with something of my own invention for elites. Maybe not even Chaos Space Marines at all, but perhaps some kind of fallen Adepta Sororitas.

 

They didn't necessarily have to be represented as "Drug-Crazed Space Rapists" (much as I might like the idea). As I, Refuse and others have already pointed out, there any number of ways the servants of Slaanesh might be represented within the game mechanics that are much more appropriate and reflective of Slaanesh's aspects. All it requires is a little imagination.

[Lynnean]

refuse Posted Apr 2 2008, 12:47 AM

Another choice (or set) through signatures:

 

Slaanesh as cardinal sins

 

 

Masochistic/Blood Letting/Over drug use

 

 

Sadistic

 

 

Depression

 

that one of depression is the front of disturbed- the sickness ^^

 

but ok, noise marines are slaanesh( or: a great part of it. )

 

and: slaanesh is violence( remembers me of violence fetish, from disturbed. or pain redifined :P

[refuse]

that one of depression is the front of disturbed- the sickness ^^

Yeah. :P

The quote implies depression. I see it (as depression isn't a Sin) as the start path where you choose your sin.

So when I read the lyrics (and listen to the music) I see it the moment before the explosion. The depression before the "Sin". I see alot of the Disturbed songs as "Wrath"/"anger". You have awoken the daemon in me.

 

So I agree! :D

 

 

but ok, noise marines are slaanesh( or: a great part of it. )

 

and: slaanesh is violence( remembers me of violence fetish, from disturbed. or pain redifined :P

As above.

I too see Disturbed leading to "wrath". Alot of their songs lead me to that.

I just like the quote for the "rage before the calm". ;)

[captianhowdy]

Slaanesh I think, and its been said before one here, is the whole sex drugs and rock n' roll bit, but more than that. Thats just 3 of many exploitable feelings.

 

Sex - Obviously pleasure

Drugs - Mind (ie mind altering)

Rock n' Roll - Hearing, the rush you get from the mosh pit in a concert, etc

 

and the bright flamboyant colors? Sight?

 

But what about more? What about the other feelings? Slaanesh in my full opinion is pushing every sensation you can feel to the limits. But I like the things with the cardinal sins, but dont limit yourself! Sure you couldnt model something like Taste or Smell, but what about Touch? Drape the marines in huge velvet/silk robes

 

And think about everything society looks down on, thats good inspiration. Domination? Leather straps, spikes, power whips. Drugs? On one EC model I did for kicks, the marine is holding his head with both hands, weapons dropped on the ground, and huge piles of cocaine all around him, up to his waist at the highest.

 

Sure nurgle has a lot of modeling possibilities, every gross disease in existence, but Slaanesh has every sense and feeling mankind can produce, not limitied to green and brown, as fun as Nurgle is :blink:

[Kaptain Von]

The chaos gods were about the hollowness of relying on others, not yourself.

 

Tzeentch, the need for someone else to change things.

Nurlge, the need to survive, live, and rely on someone to save you.

Khorne, the need to kill or destroy those that you blame for your problems.

Slaanesh, the need to hide in sensation, addiction to hide your own failings.

 

They are the polar opposites of self realization. Back then (in Slaves and Lost and the Damned), the books indicated that stronger personalities, those that had mastered themselves were reborn time and time again. The Old Ones were the original race to do this, and the Shamans were the name for humans that did this. Chaos was the force that ate the weak. And the more weak the fell to chaos, the stronger chaos became. Indifference and lack of personal responsibility were the themes. It is very much like Brave New World, 1984, Atlas Shrugged in that aspect.

 

i.e. if you can't accomplish something, pray to the gods for deliverence. Don't try to do it yourself.

So if you can't overcome an enemy, pray to Khorne for strength. Can't deal with reality, pray to Slaanesh for a moment of "forgetfulness". Don't like the world as it is, pray to Tzeentch. Don't want to die, suffering, pray to Nurgle.

 

Or you can overcome it yourself, and gain the "perfect mind". Personal responsibility.

 

<specific example besnipped>

 

Chaos is the "release" from personal responsibility. Gods that are "real" and active to absolve you of your own failings. "Slaanesh demands I torture you and send your soul to her".

The Dark Eldar stories usually show chaos better then the chaos stories. The Dark Eldar know they are just holding off the inevitable, their entire society is based around self indulgence, the bully syndrome (I kill you, or you kill me. The weak serve the strong) and the fact they are doomed from birth.

 

If you look at the Eldar, they use to serve Gods. Because they were unfocused and decadent. They then became strict, rules following, and developing their selves by walking and mastering all of the aspects of life. But they learned this lesson to late.

 

Chaos, psychers and the Imperium are the facets of all the aspects of humanity. Humans need to rise above, master themselves before they consign themselves to the same fate as the Eldar. We see the "1984" world in the Imperium, where the "better future" for humanity is to deny them being human. Remove their ability to think, thus to sin, or fail in personal responsibility. Look at the doctrines and sayings, they all imply the citizens need to be good, the Emperor is watching. We see the perfect world of the Tau in Brave New World. Everything is shiney and pretty, as long as you are inside the cities.

 

The Chaos powers are the absolution of self responsibility. They are the easy path to blaming others. The key in 40k is that if you call for help, absolving yourself of sin, someone will answer. But the cost may be higher then you think.

 

 

I like this! It's not the Chaos I prefer - we'll come to why in a bit - but it's a superb look at the way our Chaos followers operate.

 

One interesting thing that has come out of the new Chaos book is Thorpe's assertion that the Renegades are Marines with their humanity back: they've ceased to be these engineered and brainwashed inhumans-defending-humanity and become oversized, over-endowed people, with all the frailties and weaknesses (and strengths - despite the cackhanded implementation in the new army list, Chaos Marines are in theory not dependent on tactical doctrine to do their thinking. They have their initiative back too...) that implies. Even Horus was motivated by pride (at least, he was in the version I remember... I've not touched the Heresy series, largely because I don't have the patience for epics or retcons) - it was hubris that made Chaos seem attractive. What grabs me about this is that hubris isn't a quality Marines are meant to have, which makes me wonder which came first: the humanity that made Chaos attractive or the Chaos that made humanity a factor?

 

Back to the actual reason for posting: I seem to remember reading elsewhere on this 'ere forum that you're a libertarian yourself, refuse? Assuming I'm not making that up, it's no surprise that you map the idea of personal responsibility and self-mastery onto Chaos and thus perceive it as a snare for the weak. I don't wish to contest that. I'd just like to map my own preconceptions onto Chaos, as you've done, and see what it adds to the debate.

 

What interests me about Chaos - the occult philosophy, not the wargame faction - is the idea of the god-meme as a tool for self-development. It's based on a kind of metaphysical doublethink. You admit that you need an external symbol-set in order to make your brain work in a certain way (prayer provokes an electro-chemical reaction that enables you to deal with a situation more easily), but you acknowledge that you're using prayer/belief/the trappings of religion as a tool to work around an aspect of your mind you can't consciously control. Since you're aware that your god-meme is a tool, you can put it away when you've finished with it; you don't allow the tool to affect your thinking when you don't need it to.

 

Now, this is a good deal harder when your gods are active entities and take umbrage at that sort of thing. That's what interests me about Chaos in Warhammer: the devil's deal that a psychologically stronger follower of Chaos makes. Can they use their gods in the same way I try to use mine, or does the presence of a 'real' (that's real to the fictional follower of Chaos, not to me...) entity on the other side of the equation mean their attempt to have the cake and eat it is doomed to fail?

 

I think what I'm trying to inch toward is that there are degrees of what you classify as 'weakness'. There's the Chaos minion who's more or less unaware of the bargain he's made - he just knows that Chaos makes his life slightly easier. Then there's the Chaos Champion who's attempting to use Chaos to develop his self-responsibility, using the idea of the Chaos God to empower him when it's needed and trying to put it away when he's done. It's a more interesting and complex character than the abdicant of responsibility who barely understands what he's doing. Maybe I'm more of a Dark Eldar guy at heart...

 

 

Edit: also, that 'Die For Me' image is... well, to die for. I may have to liberate that.

[refuse]

I like this! It's not the Chaos I prefer - we'll come to why in a bit - but it's a superb look at the way our Chaos followers operate.

 

One interesting thing that has come out of the new Chaos book is Thorpe's assertion that the Renegades are Marines with their humanity back: they've ceased to be these engineered and brainwashed inhumans-defending-humanity and become oversized, over-endowed people, with all the frailties and weaknesses (and strengths - despite the cackhanded implementation in the new army list, Chaos Marines are in theory not dependent on tactical doctrine to do their thinking. They have their initiative back too...) that implies. Even Horus was motivated by pride (at least, he was in the version I remember... I've not touched the Heresy series, largely because I don't have the patience for epics or retcons) - it was hubris that made Chaos seem attractive. What grabs me about this is that hubris isn't a quality Marines are meant to have, which makes me wonder which came first: the humanity that made Chaos attractive or the Chaos that made humanity a factor?

 

Back to the actual reason for posting: I seem to remember reading elsewhere on this 'ere forum that you're a libertarian yourself, refuse? Assuming I'm not making that up, it's no surprise that you map the idea of personal responsibility and self-mastery onto Chaos and thus perceive it as a snare for the weak. I don't wish to contest that. I'd just like to map my own preconceptions onto Chaos, as you've done, and see what it adds to the debate.

Yes I am, and yes, that is part of the key.

Chaos is personal. It is, what you are, or better yet, it is what you want, perceive, see.

Your chaos isn't my chaos. Your sins are not my sins. My lust isn't your lust. Or his, or hers or theirs. The weak will follow the strong, the strong define their chaos, and the chaos for the weak.

So for me, my perception is based as you say on my concept of personal responsibility. Of course, the trap may be in the pride of thinking I am strong. Personal responsibility, may be a sin. Or perhaps any strength may be your greatest interest.

 

What interests me about Chaos - the occult philosophy, not the wargame faction - is the idea of the god-meme as a tool for self-development. It's based on a kind of metaphysical doublethink. You admit that you need an external symbol-set in order to make your brain work in a certain way (prayer provokes an electro-chemical reaction that enables you to deal with a situation more easily), but you acknowledge that you're using prayer/belief/the trappings of religion as a tool to work around an aspect of your mind you can't consciously control. Since you're aware that your god-meme is a tool, you can put it away when you've finished with it; you don't allow the tool to affect your thinking when you don't need it to.

 

Now, this is a good deal harder when your gods are active entities and take umbrage at that sort of thing. That's what interests me about Chaos in Warhammer: the devil's deal that a psychologically stronger follower of Chaos makes. Can they use their gods in the same way I try to use mine, or does the presence of a 'real' (that's real to the fictional follower of Chaos, not to me...) entity on the other side of the equation mean their attempt to have the cake and eat it is doomed to fail?

Hmm.

You used the word meme. ;) I agree.

What if instead, chaos wasn't "aware" but instead was a connection, or ability to create a connection as you say by a mental state. Such states change you to be more receptive. Put another way, what if your "state" was an antenna. Your state changes, your antenna changes and the frequency you receive changes. So your state, as you say is your "symbol-set" (can you tell I did RF engineering?) Once you "channel" power, or you are tuned in, and aligned, you get a burst of the signal, the signal burns you out a little. You can't turn as far away (on average), and you are more attuned to that power. And it is easier to find that channel. Easier to go back to that channel.

 

That is the "personal responsibility". There are states where it is easier to find the "channel". Desperation, desire, and other "baser" emotions are wide band antennas. They allow you to find the signal easier. Worse, they are higher gain. You open your mind in times of fear, or weakness. The "personal responsibility" is locking down your brain, or preventing the symbol-sets into your mind. Hardening your mind to them changes the meme. Thus even knowing of chaos, opens you to chaos. Once you have the meme, or the knowledge you can absolve yourself, you can find the signal easier.

 

Psykers are built in antennas. They have a conduit to the warp. Their symbol sets are stronger. This is like a person that can "blink" effectively. Or perhaps, has stronger memes. We know there are people that can detect people's emotions by having certain parts of their brain better developed, and people that can't read emotions because parts of their brains are damage. So psykers are "hardwaried" for power, or have higher gain antennas.

 

I think what I'm trying to inch toward is that there are degrees of what you classify as 'weakness'. There's the Chaos minion who's more or less unaware of the bargain he's made - he just knows that Chaos makes his life slightly easier. Then there's the Chaos Champion who's attempting to use Chaos to develop his self-responsibility, using the idea of the Chaos God to empower him when it's needed and trying to put it away when he's done. It's a more interesting and complex character than the abdicant of responsibility who barely understands what he's doing. Maybe I'm more of a Dark Eldar guy at heart...

 

 

Edit: also, that 'Die For Me' image is... well, to die for. I may have to liberate that.

I don't disagree.

I think it is the individual that defines it.

i.e. is killing bad? Not if the person is bad. So your "meme" or symbol set or "responsibility" when you kill. i.e. in a libertarian view (my view to be honest), if you make a decision, it is never good or bad. It is the personal assessment of that action.

What separates the savior of humanity from the killer of Khorne.

The individual. Their perception of theirself, their motivations and their opinions of their actions.

[Santos Imperator]

Alright some of what I have to contribute has already been said, but I'm going to reiterate a bit of it.

 

In my opinion, yes, Slaanesh isn't so much sex, drugs, and rock and roll, it's about the debasement of morals, as has been said. The fact that you can push the morals and standards of both you and society to the extreme, break them, and enjoy the very act of defiling all that which people think is good is what Slaanesh is all about, in my opinion. It's about unrestrained feelings- nearly every society makes you restrain many parts of what you feel, and generally this does tend to make society better as a whole. With Slaanesh, you restrain nothing- you simply act. You see a girl on the other side of the street, for instance. Common knowledge tells you even though the girl is attractive, it would be morally wrong to attempt to come on to her or anything of that nature. With Slaanesh, you see the girl? She's yours- take her and do whatever you want with her. Slaanesh basically reduces people to an animalistic state, unable to control even your basest urges.

 

Other aspects, such as self-mutilation, masochism, and sadism, have similar connotations. Normal morals tell us that anyone who delights in pain ( inflicting it on self or others) is mentally ill or in need of some kind of help. In Slaaneshi followers, this behavior is accepted, encouraged, and pushed to an extreme. It really seems to me that even in the minds of Space Marines, much of the human traits that might spark mental illness are still present. So really, each follower of Slaanesh will not necessarily be "turned on" by the same things. Some choose unrestrained sex or beat, some choose the euphoria that many drugs seem to entail, and some choose the sensation that pain provides.

 

Also, Noise Marines, in my opinion, do not do what they do for "rock and roll". I can hardly see Fulgrim or any of the EC sitting around listening to much music at all- anything from mozart to drug anthems to metal. They find pleasure in noise because it's an aspect of what they enjoy most- killing. Even some modern killers do this today- they torture their victims to try to make them scream, cry, and plead as much as possible. Over time, their minds associate these and similar noises with power- they are in complete control of their victims. Noise Marines take this idea and force it to an extreme- instead of simply screams, they learn to take loud, discordant noise and associate it with the same feelings of power and pleasure that they crave. In the end, the GW books even admit that it gets to the point where only the sounds of battle and the screams of dying will faze them, simply because these are what they sought to imitate anyway.

 

And that, in my opinion, is pretty dang dark :rolleyes:

[Hokkaido23]

I think the idea of Noise Marines walking across the battlefield playing music, per se, is silly and a very narrow interpretation. Sonic Blasters dont play music, it creates a dischordant wail of noise that is both painful and disorienting to those who hear it. The Blast Master isnt a bass guitar, it creates a concussive bolt of pure sonic energy that bludgeons the enemy in unconsciousness or death. This isnt music, its the kind of sound that literally makes your ears bleed, whether due to volume or the force trauma of sonic energy smashing your fragile squishy bits. Dont think of these weapons as guns. There are no 'bullets' of sound. The Noise Marines arent rocking out until a tank explodes, thats ridiculous. They are taking what is normally pleasant and enjoyable (music, or more appropriately sound) and creating a contrast with off-key, atonal, and especially loud sound that inflicts pain and suffering. Therefore they get the sounds for themselves, which serves to create sensation to their deadened senses and they get the reaction of those who hear the sound - not only their victims' screams but the victim writhing on the ground and clutching his head as the sound drives him mad or makes his eyeballs burst, or the sheer terror and panic that ensues as the enemy flees to escape - all these contribute to the Noise Marines own adrenaline rush, or his pride, or his black sense of humor.

 

Its the same with the brightly patterened armor - think about the average imperial hive city. The inhabitants wear bland, drab colors or uniforms. The landscapes are blasted and ruined on many worlds, the architecture is dominated by skulls and industrial, gothic imagery. Even loyalist marines wear uniforms that declare their heraldry and their devotion to primarch and Emperor, reducing their individuality and making a Space Marine army into a cohesive, homogenized whole. Compare that to a band of Noise Marines - their garish armor, unique for every individual, serves not only as a stunning contrast to the standard imperial landscape but goes against the uniformity of the loyalist marines and everything they stand for. Its a reminder that 'yes, we used to be like you but look at how we are now - you could one day become us'.

 

Noise Marines are great. They havent sold or lost their humanity, they have embraced it. If you think of them as shallow or cartoonish, I would suggest you expand your interpretation.

[The Raging Gaijin]

Your perception of Slaanesh depends on how far down the Path you are.

 

Don't get upset with each other, gentlemen. We are playing for our Satin Prince after all. I do recommend reading Refuse's work and mull upon it for awhile. You'll see.

 

I promise.

[KhornateDev]

First off I'd like to state two things. 1. I'm aware my name doesn't make it seem it suits me to know much about this topic. 2. I have only been playing and researching 40k for about 2 years now, so my argument is based Soley of recent lore and perspectives. Way back in the day when Emperor's Children still faked Loyalty to the Emperor, Fabius Bile spoke with Fulgrim, the head of the Emperor's Children and convinced him to let him work to create "Perfect Soldiers.". One thing Bile did along with his other "Enchantments" was to connect the Marines senses (Touch, sight, taste, smell, and hearing) directly to the pleasure censors of their brains. So when Noise Marines touch, see, taste, smell, or HEAR something it stimulates the pleasure center of their brains. Over time due to constant abuse of their senses they began to become inured to the normal levels of their senses till, as the lore says, they became unable see colors unless they were extremely bright and clashing. Their addiction to the sense of hearing gave rise to their sonic powered weaponry. So basically when a Noise marine fire a Sonic Blaster, Blast Master, or Doom Siren, they get the equivalent of a supercharged orgasm. And while they may have changed dramatically since the days of 40k old, they are still on the same search for Hedonistic and dark pleasures they always were, just in diffrent ways.

[Vassakov]

This is a fascinating thread, as it explores what it means to be Chaotic, and Refuse I think has summed up precisly what Slannesh is: the debasement of yourself. Santos Imperator also touches on the elements of what in 40K terms could be Slanneshi, but is there at the present. Hostel by Quentin Tarentino, whilst an awful film does show humanity pushing itself to it's limits with Sadism - both personal and to others.

 

This is what Slannesh is - the lines between pleasure and pain, ectsatsy and agony become blurred, until eventually they mean the same thing. In order to get the "fix," you have to go further than the last time until everything that you were is now subsumed by the emotion and the feeling. Fulgrim describes Fulgrims tortuous descent, as the perfection he carved always seemed out of reach he tried to find other ways, and that pushed him further from perfection until all that matter was the method, not the goal.

 

And this becomes the true trap of Chaos, what starts out as a means to an end (usually power or release) slowly becomes an end in itself, until finally you can't remember what the ends were in the first place, all that matters is the next high, the next kill. You become less than human, less than what you were trapped in a spiral that never ends, constantly pushing yourself but never knowing why. Look at Lucius the Eternal - stalking the galaxy for the next fight, the next kill, the next death but never knowing why, with no true purpose - he has lost himself to the sensation but has nothing with which to define it.

 

And as for the Noise Marines, well who here listens to music for fun, to relax? Right, and now how many people beat, beat and kill for fun and to relax? I suspect there is a difference. Music is to most, harmless entertainment. But what happens when it isn't enough? When you can't hear it? You push it high and louder and faster, until it isn't music, it's just noise.

 

And a loud enough noise can kill.

[apparition]

And this becomes the true trap of Chaos, what starts out as a means to an end (usually power or release) slowly becomes an end in itself, until finally you can't remember what the ends were in the first place, all that matters is the next high, the next kill. You become less than human, less than what you were trapped in a spiral that never ends, constantly pushing yourself but never knowing why. Look at Lucius the Eternal - stalking the galaxy for the next fight, the next kill, the next death but never knowing why, with no true purpose - he has lost himself to the sensation but has nothing with which to define it.

 

In a sense the Nightlords are quite like this, despite the fact they look down on all forms of worship. They used terror tactics to win battles and bring order to begin with but as time progressed war became an excuse for them to conduct terror. In the end they stopped fighting to try and achieve a goal but just fought for the thrill of terrorising. Maybe my nightlords arent that different from slaanesh devotees....

[Vassakov]

And this becomes the true trap of Chaos, what starts out as a means to an end (usually power or release) slowly becomes an end in itself, until finally you can't remember what the ends were in the first place, all that matters is the next high, the next kill. You become less than human, less than what you were trapped in a spiral that never ends, constantly pushing yourself but never knowing why. Look at Lucius the Eternal - stalking the galaxy for the next fight, the next kill, the next death but never knowing why, with no true purpose - he has lost himself to the sensation but has nothing with which to define it.

 

In a sense the Nightlords are quite like this, despite the fact they look down on all forms of worship. They used terror tactics to win battles and bring order to begin with but as time progressed war became an excuse for them to conduct terror. In the end they stopped fighting to try and achieve a goal but just fought for the thrill of terrorising. Maybe my nightlords arent that different from slaanesh devotees....

 

Yes, but so are all Chaos Marines to a point. The Berserkers of the World Eaters, once proud warriors of the Emperor fighting for humanity now know nothing but the constant fight, so much so that they even fight each other but they have nothing to fight for but the fight itself.

 

The Death Guard gave up everything for their lives, for their survival but the will of Nurgle has taken their lives, they have nothing but their survival.

 

The Emperors Children pushed themselves to the limits for perfection and sensation but they no longer have anything but the sensation, nothing to define or measure it against.

 

The Thousand Sons sacrificed their very existance for their knowledge but Chaos has taken from them everything that knowledge means.

 

And so it goes on... until you realise that that is the true trap of Chaos... it is doing something for the sake of doing something. It is impulse buying, cause it was there. It is the urge to jump, Chaos is the little voice in the back of your mind, the carnal desire and the raging anger.

 

And then you finally realise the truth. That all we are, and all humanity can ever be is Chaos, because that is what makes us human.

[Dammeron]

All good points, along with some quite fascinating philosophical debates that I simply don't have the patience to respond to at the moment, but I'm still not hearing anything I haven't heard or considered for myself before. I know the official line on why the Noise Marines came to be, I also acknowledge their link to Slaanesh and His/Her/Its aspects. I simply don't buy it or the unit itself as a legitimate representation of said aspects considering how Slaanesh's servants were represented in game terms before their introduction, and what could've been instituted in their place.

[Sanguinius Chosen Wing]

Theres some good fluff in the new WFB Daeom codex, where it talks about the fears of the three other Gods that Slaanesh is growing in power and they are supporting him. Seems to make a fair bit of sense as was stated above (2nd post actually)

[Askari]

Personally I don't like any of the cult troops, but they all do go well with their deity. I initially didn't like the fluff for noise marines but now I'm starting to look at it as not "rock starz in space" as I initially thought but in a different light. The noise marines have followed slaanesh so long that they've taken a more cynical look at the galaxy. They could once gain pleasure from jsut about anything but now they've become bored with their normal excesses and now can only feel right on the field of battle as they charge into their enemy, cutting into them as their opponent lets out their last screams and a tank explodes in a giant fireball a few feet away.

 

To them the battlefield is like a rock concert, orgy, fireworks/laser show, game of deathmatch on Halo 3, roller coaster ride. So they can only experience true pleasure in this type of environment.

 

GW only really had three choices: troops that used the sense of touch, troops that used the sense of sound, and units that used the sense of sight.

 

Touch: Is too complicated. Really giving units a bunch of bonuses for taking wounds would get to be too much and they could easily go overboard with the rules, as many of the rules in 2nd edition were like the rules for the original ork madboyz.

 

Sight: Really that means laser weaponry while it would be cool the weapons would just be bigger lasguns/ smaller lascannons and wouldn't be too unique.

 

Sound: Ok it does give off a bad rockstar vibe but luckily they've decided to tone that down and not make the weapons look exactly like guitars anymore. Plus it gives them a unique weapon no one else has sound weaponry. Plus think of it, sound can stimulate the other senses. The brilliant explosions caused by the sonic weaponry blowing apart enemy vehicles stimulates both sight and sound. The vibrations from the sonic weapons (think standing inside a massive woofer) would certainly stimulate their sense of touch.

 

Additionally as much as I hate the rock star image noise marines often exude goth rockstars/gangsta rappers really are a good template for servants of slannesh. They have the less dark parts covered with the stars rolling in material wealth and wearing the best clothes as being creative and artisitic. Plus they have the dark parts with the easy groupies, the drug addictions, and in the case of rappers the violent lifestyle. these tendencies are self destructive and that's really what Slannesh personifies: people destroying themselves through their own excesses but taking a lot of people with them and loving the ride and a few other things along the way. Oh and hermaphrodtes but I'm pretty sure most people would rather ignore that little facet of Slaanesh.

 

I prefer Fantasy's version of slaanesh since fantasy doesn't have the dark aura of "Everyone Hates Each Other and We're All Gonna Die" that 40k does Fantasy can represent slaanesh as a patron of beauty and charismatic and fearless leaders.

[Dammeron]

Personally I don't like any of the cult troops, but they all do go well with their deity. I initially didn't like the fluff for noise marines but now I'm starting to look at it as not "rock starz in space" as I initially thought but in a different light. The noise marines have followed slaanesh so long that they've taken a more cynical look at the galaxy. They could once gain pleasure from jsut about anything but now they've become bored with their normal excesses and now can only feel right on the field of battle as they charge into their enemy, cutting into them as their opponent lets out their last screams and a tank explodes in a giant fireball a few feet away.

 

To them the battlefield is like a rock concert, orgy, fireworks/laser show, game of deathmatch on Halo 3, roller coaster ride. So they can only experience true pleasure in this type of environment.

 

GW only really had three choices: troops that used the sense of touch, troops that used the sense of sound, and units that used the sense of sight.

 

Touch: Is too complicated. Really giving units a bunch of bonuses for taking wounds would get to be too much and they could easily go overboard with the rules, as many of the rules in 2nd edition were like the rules for the original ork madboyz.

 

Sight: Really that means laser weaponry while it would be cool the weapons would just be bigger lasguns/ smaller lascannons and wouldn't be too unique.

 

Sound: Ok it does give off a bad rockstar vibe but luckily they've decided to tone that down and not make the weapons look exactly like guitars anymore. Plus it gives them a unique weapon no one else has sound weaponry. Plus think of it, sound can stimulate the other senses. The brilliant explosions caused by the sonic weaponry blowing apart enemy vehicles stimulates both sight and sound. The vibrations from the sonic weapons (think standing inside a massive woofer) would certainly stimulate their sense of touch.

 

Additionally as much as I hate the rock star image noise marines often exude goth rockstars/gangsta rappers really are a good template for servants of slannesh. They have the less dark parts covered with the stars rolling in material wealth and wearing the best clothes as being creative and artisitic. Plus they have the dark parts with the easy groupies, the drug addictions, and in the case of rappers the violent lifestyle. these tendencies are self destructive and that's really what Slannesh personifies: people destroying themselves through their own excesses but taking a lot of people with them and loving the ride and a few other things along the way. Oh and hermaphrodtes but I'm pretty sure most people would rather ignore that little facet of Slaanesh.

 

I prefer Fantasy's version of slaanesh since fantasy doesn't have the dark aura of "Everyone Hates Each Other and We're All Gonna Die" that 40k does Fantasy can represent slaanesh as a patron of beauty and charismatic and fearless leaders.

 

There are a number of assertions and assumptions here that I feel the need to un-pick:

 

First of all, you assert that GW were limited in terms of their options for representing the servants of Slaanesh out of some obligation that they somehow reflect a human sense. This is simply not so. The servants of Slaanesh as they were represented before Noise Marines even came on the scene was via the provision of morale and leadership bonuses when they were wounded, representing their sado-masochistic tendency to take pleasure from any and all sensation, no matter how extreme or bizarre (which, IMO, is a much more accurate reflection of Slaanesh's aspects than this recent "heightened senses" sanitised nonsense, especially since the whole basis behind Noise Marines is that their senses are JADED and WITHERED through centuries of continual excess). Also, take into account that the traditional assumption that human beings benefit from only five senses is simply un-true. Biology has identified at least 22 senses that all human beings benefit from, including thermoception (the ability to sense tempereature fluctuations) and a variety of others, many of which could be potentially used as a basis for a Slaaneshi "cult" of some sort.

 

Then take into account the myriad suggestions for alternatives to Noise Marines that have already been suggested by myself, Refuse and others in this topic. What about marines whose bodies are coursing with a constant cocktail of stimulants and narcotics made from the rendered down cracasses of their victims (as the servants of Slaanesh are constantly portrayed as doing in the background)? Or perhaps "Epicureans," marines that are suffused with the limitless desire and hunger of the Dark Prince? There are any number of ways the servants of Slaanesh COULD have been represented that would have been much more consistent and accurate a relfection of the Dark Prince's aspects; that is the fundamental basis of my argument here. I have every article and publication that bears even the slightest reference to Noise Marines in my possession, I am aware of the official blurb on how and why Noise Marines came to be; I simply regard it as unsatisfactory, contrived and somewhat inconsistent considering just how obviously the other "cult" options reflect aspects of their patron deity.

 

As for ignoring the "androgyny" of Slaanesh, why in hell would we want to do that? His/Her/Its lack of definition is core to its character, and its existence as the sentient incarnation of contradictory, inconsistent appetite and desire. I personally find this aspect of Slaanesh most intriguing, as it harks back to the pseudo-occult notion of "The Divine Androgyne," a spiritual-cum-physical state in which all parameters imposed by gender, sexuality etc are broken down in favour of a less definite, more malleable state. This is Slaanesh, and it would've been a fantastic way to represent His/Her/Its servants on the battlefield (for an example of how, check out the "Divine Androgyne" Gift of the Gods in my home-grown Chaos Codex in the Home Grown rules section).

[Askari]

The thing is that if they had taken the sado masochistic aspect then by now thanks to the policy of simplifying rules and trying to make most special rules and abilities universal rules from the rulebook they would just be marines with feel no pain big woop. Of course they could have gone down the road of leadership bonuses for taking wounds but really marines don't have a problem with leadership and most people don't want their expensive cult troops to only be effective when they're being blasted away.

 

As for drugs, nice suggestion but Dark Eldar already have the army full of combat drugs.

 

The other 17 senses that no one knows or cares about: seriously if they did that then people wouldn't understand what they had to do with slaanesh and it would be pretty hard to make rules for them.

 

Noise marines go well with the fluff, provide a nice unique weapon, and they have nice simple rules that don't need to be checked every game by you and your opponent to use them. That's probably why GW went with them.

[Duodecimo]

I personally quite like Noise Marines. It's just when the assumption is, 'Slaaneshi army? Give 'em all sonic weapons!' that it becomes monotonous and boring.

Just my opinion.

[Askari]

That I can understand. Like the apocalypse datasheets for sonic dreadnoughts, and terminators and baneblades that are floating around, I can't stand them.

[Dammeron]

The thing is that if they had taken the sado masochistic aspect then by now thanks to the policy of simplifying rules and trying to make most special rules and abilities universal rules from the rulebook they would just be marines with feel no pain big woop. Of course they could have gone down the road of leadership bonuses for taking wounds but really marines don't have a problem with leadership and most people don't want their expensive cult troops to only be effective when they're being blasted away.

 

As for drugs, nice suggestion but Dark Eldar already have the army full of combat drugs.

 

The other 17 senses that no one knows or cares about: seriously if they did that then people wouldn't understand what they had to do with slaanesh and it would be pretty hard to make rules for them.

 

Noise marines go well with the fluff, provide a nice unique weapon, and they have nice simple rules that don't need to be checked every game by you and your opponent to use them. That's probably why GW went with them.

 

The current trend of homogenisation is a factor that I rabidly and vociferously disdain. There are many ways "sado-masochistic" marines could be represented in game terms without resorting to simply allowing them access to the "Feel No Pain" rule. As I have mentioned already, there're plenty of precedents in the gaming mechanics already.

 

As for the Dark Eldar having access to combat drugs, the servants of Slaanesh demonstrated a proclivity for them before the Dark Eldar even existed in the game, besides which, there is nothing to say that the conbat drugs rendered by servants of Slaanesh might have subtly different effects than those concocted by the Dark eldar. Even if they had exactly the same effects in mechanical terms, their significance and potential use would be different owing to the discrepencies between the two forces (Dark Eldar both as individual models and in army-scale terms function in diametric opposition to Chaos Space Marine forces).

 

As for my reference to the myriad other senses Slaanesh supposedly stimulates, I thought it would be a matter of common sense that i wasn't suggesting there should be such monstrosities as "thermoception marines" running around, rather I was trying to demonstrate that there is an entire spectrum of human experience (and, by extension, excess) that Noise Marines do not take into account.

 

Besides which, there is absolutely nothing to suggest that Noise Marine Sonic Weapons could nto be taken as an optional upgrade for a pre-existing Slaaneshi cult unit. this would both balance out the Slaaneshi cult options with regards to the attention that has been lavished on those of other Gods, whilst simultaneously providing those that like/dislike them the option to tailor their force accoriding to their tastes.