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Librarium: Raven Guard: A Comprehensive History


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18 replies to this topic

#1
Sigismund Himself

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This is the discussion topic for article: Raven Guard: A Comprehensive History

#2
Bannus

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This has come up a couple of times in the IA subforum and I think we need to make a clarification to our article:

The illustration of the markings for the Raven Guard that appears in our article is actually an amalgum of the different markings that they have have had over the years (no less than four if you count the IA article's markings pre and post Heresy as two different sets) and that the actual markings as they are portrayed in the article are not canon.

We should either clarify what this illustration represents or have seperate and distinct illustrations for each marking set and where they originated from.

I had never given it much thought because I have all of the source material, so I did not veiw the illustration as "misleading" at all - just a composit of all of the arking systems that they had. As cool as it is, it does give a player with fewer resources the wrong idea.

Thoughts about this?
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#3
Sigismund Himself

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This has come up a couple of times in the IA subforum and I think we need to make a clarification to our article:

The illustration of the markings for the Raven Guard that appears in our article is actually an amalgum of the different markings that they have have had over the years (no less than four if you count the IA article's markings pre and post Heresy as two different sets) and that the actual markings as they are portrayed in the article are not canon.

We should either clarify what this illustration represents or have seperate and distinct illustrations for each marking set and where they originated from.

I had never given it much thought because I have all of the source material, so I did not veiw the illustration as "misleading" at all - just a composit of all of the arking systems that they had. As cool as it is, it does give a player with fewer resources the wrong idea.

Thoughts about this?

Sure, a paragraph on the different heraldry systems we've seen would definitely be useful :D

#4
Vash113

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I have yet to see any canon fluff confirming a change in color scheme from the IA article, at best all you and others have been able to do is make assumptions or interpretations based off of a scattering of pictures, which without textual support are not verifiable.

As such the article does not and will not include further images until such a time as textual support can be found to back up a change in marking system.

The images in the article are also as close to canon as they reasonably can be, the only exception being the image of the Veteran which has little precedent anywhere. Company number according to Insignium Astartes is displayed on the left knee while the right shoulder pad trim denotes squad type. The squad numbers on the right knees are simply stand ins because the painter does not allow for numbers on the shoulder pad and I didn't feel like mucking around in photoshop at the time.

Until such a time as more verifiable information comes along the article will remain as it is.

Additionally it is misleading and false to propagate the idea that there are different "marking sets" when in fact there really aren't any. There are scatterings of images and pictures here and there that do not conform to the IA fluff, and small pieces of material here and there but the concept that these are in fact various and divergent "sets" of information is just not true. Even the IA material is not complete.

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"Are we going to scrap about it now. Argue which Legion is the toughest?"
"The answer always is, the Wolves of Fenris," Torgadon put in. "Because they're clinically insane."
-1st Captain Sigismund of the Imperial Fists and Captain of the Luna Wolves 2nd Company.


#5
Hrvat

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I went and look all the RG markings and all are ok.

We know that RG are a codex chapter. All of the different markings seen displayed by the RG are codex adherant. Considering their modus operandi it is not beyond imagination that they change their markings as it is advised by the Codex.

#6
Bannus

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I have yet to see any canon fluff confirming a change in color scheme from the IA article, at best all you and others have been able to do is make assumptions or interpretations based off of a scattering of pictures, which without textual support are not verifiable.

And what "textual support" is there for the original markings? A single illustration from a White Dwarf article printed during 3rd edition. That is it.

We have gone round and round on this. The simple fact is that the Tactical Marine represented in How To Paint Space Marines and the Tactical Marine illustrated in the newest codex have a red shoulderpad rim - which completely contradicts the older scheme (where the shoulderpad rim should be green). Add to that the studio army also reflects the same new markings (and not the old one) for the two latest editions of the game and we have solid canon evidence.

I'd call that far more "textual support" than the single 3rd edition illustration.

You may not like it - but the newer material is more canon and the illustration in the Librarium article shows markings that have never appeared on any single Raven Guard Marine in any canon materials.

If we want our wiki to be considered a credible source, details like this need to be meticulously notated. Otherwise we will be just another Lexicanium online. ;)

Edited by bannus, 22 May 2010 - 01:38 AM.

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#7
Hrvat

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I think that you misunderstood me. I am not saying that Librarium pictures are correct, but that any of the up to date shown variations in RG markings are codex correct. Considering their way of thinking and operating having an army switch between markings (something that is advised by the Codex) would be something common.

I would rather have Librarium include all the known variations than have this current mix.


Cheers

Hrvat

#8
Gree

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Alright, I just got a chance to look at IA:8

Minor spoilers ahead.

Spoiler

Edited by Gree, 24 May 2010 - 12:45 AM.

3000pts-The Blighted Cacophony (Death Guard/Emperor's Children allied warband)

#9
electriceye

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Is there any evidence that shoulder pad rims change colour dependant on either company or unit designation?

I would have thought the rim colour changes as per codex.

Are we to read the dreadnought mentioned is the model we have recieved, or is it a generic rule set for an awesome model rather than a character piece?

#10
Gree

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Is there any evidence that shoulder pad rims change colour dependant on either company or unit designation?


I don't know, the Raven Guard force was drawn from several different companies.

Are we to read the dreadnought mentioned is the model we have recieved, or is it a generic rule set for an awesome model rather than a character piece?


I don't know, I think it was intended as whatever you wished.
3000pts-The Blighted Cacophony (Death Guard/Emperor's Children allied warband)

#11
Bannus

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I think that you misunderstood me. I am not saying that Librarium pictures are correct, but that any of the up to date shown variations in RG markings are codex correct. Considering their way of thinking and operating having an army switch between markings (something that is advised by the Codex) would be something common.

To a point I agree with you - but only because I know of and discern which sources each of those markings came from.

For a new player who is looking for a reliable source of information, the illustration is proving to be a bit....confusing.
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#12
Gree

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I would also note that we have another Captain revealed in Chapter's Due. Aethon Shaan, Captain of the 4th.
3000pts-The Blighted Cacophony (Death Guard/Emperor's Children allied warband)

#13
Culebras

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Something has bothered me about the Raven Guard for a while and I thought I should bring it up here. There is obviously a degree of homage to the works of Edgar Allen Poe (one of the fathers of Gothic literature) in the Raven Guard (what with Corax's famous last line and the events following the drop site massacre). However, comparing Corax's established history, specifically the tale of his origin, to Poe's works, you see they are nothing a like, which always struck me as weird. 40K is supposed to be a gothic universe, but the one race with the most direct connection to Poe is barely gothic at all.

As a writer, Poe focused on

-Death, corpses, premature burial
-disease
-madness, hallucination
-supernatural and other worldly events

None of these show up in the raven guard back story, which tends towards the more heroic, sanitized version of the noble rebel.

I think there is a great deal of potential here and I would not be surprised if, when Black Library rolls around to making a Horus Heresy novel about the raven guard, they gain a bit of darker edge to them.

#14
The Mystic

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We have gone round and round on this. The simple fact is that the Tactical Marine represented in How To Paint Space Marines and the Tactical Marine illustrated in the newest codex have a red shoulderpad rim - which completely contradicts the older scheme (where the shoulderpad rim should be green). Add to that the studio army also reflects the same new markings (and not the old one) for the two latest editions of the game and we have solid canon evidence.

I'd call that far more "textual support" than the single 3rd edition illustration.

You may not like it - but the newer material is more canon and the illustration in the Librarium article shows markings that have never appeared on any single Raven Guard Marine in any canon materials.

If we want our wiki to be considered a credible source, details like this need to be meticulously notated. Otherwise we will be just another Lexicanium online. :D


Has anybody else also noticed that in the current 5th edition C: SM there is also a picture of a Space Marine biker displaying Assault insignia with green shoulder trim? This would also indicate that they follow the standard codex scheme.
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Dark Angels (6th ed): W-8 L-1 D-2
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Raven Guard (C: BA): W-4 L-0 D-0
Space Wolves: W-16 L-2 D-1

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#15
Vash113

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I think there is a great deal of potential here and I would not be surprised if, when Black Library rolls around to making a Horus Heresy novel about the raven guard, they gain a bit of darker edge to them.


I really don't see the potential and I very much doubt it will be used at all. The Raven Guard were in Cadian Blood, they feature heavily in Hunt for Voldorius and also with IA8 we still see no such allusions and I'm happy about it. Some of Poe's stuff is good but I'm glad the Raven Guard have moved away from that influence.

You also missed the most obvious reference, a one Sergeant Alenpo.

Has anybody else also noticed that in the current 5th edition C: SM there is also a picture of a Space Marine biker displaying Assault insignia with green shoulder trim? This would also indicate that they follow the standard codex scheme.


Noted and talked about numerous times before. Again its a picture without textual support meaning it could be indicative of... anything and Codex standard scheme is just one possibility. It may be the most sensible possibility but still I demand hard textual evidence before putting it in the article, same as always.

Also note that the markings shown in the article have been renovated to depict the IA color scheme with the squad marking system from Insignium Astartes.

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"Are we going to scrap about it now. Argue which Legion is the toughest?"
"The answer always is, the Wolves of Fenris," Torgadon put in. "Because they're clinically insane."
-1st Captain Sigismund of the Imperial Fists and Captain of the Luna Wolves 2nd Company.


#16
makari_the_grot

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Am I the only one who's noticed this:
quote- Kayvaan Shrike- "From the shadows we strike, fast and lethal, and by the time our enemies react- darkness there, and nothing more."
Corax's last word- "Nevermore."
See how it links? In Edgar Allan Poe's The raven:
There is the sentence "Darkness there, and nothing more."
The raven guard- the raven.
The only word the raven speaks in it is "Nevermore".
Corax translates into "raven".

Is it just me, or is this a bit too coincidental to be coincidental? :)

Edited by makari_the_grot, 24 December 2010 - 04:24 PM.


#17
Vash113

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Am I the only one who's noticed this:
quote- Kayvaan Shrike- "From the shadows we strike, fast and lethal, and by the time our enemies react- darkness there, and nothing more."
Corax's last word- "Nevermore."
See how it links? In Edgar Allan Poe's The raven:
There is the sentence "Darkness there, and nothing more."
The raven guard- the raven.
The only word the raven speaks in it is "Nevermore".
Corax translates into "raven".

Is it just me, or is this a bit too coincidental to be coincidental? :)


Don't forget Sergeant Alenpo, Instructor Sergeant, 4th Company. ;)

To clarify, it hasn't been missed, it isn't coincidental or inadvertent, rather it is one of the least subtle references to a historical theme used in a Chapter. Unfortunately it doesn't translate through the rest of the Chapter's background and is largely down to snippets here and there.

gallery_24878_5332_50483_zps960f3bfd.jpg
gallery_32575_2112_962.gifgallery_17224_3068_178.gifgallery_17224_3229_616.gifgallery_17224_3229_261.gifgallery_17224_3068_874_zps00305bb1.png
"Are we going to scrap about it now. Argue which Legion is the toughest?"
"The answer always is, the Wolves of Fenris," Torgadon put in. "Because they're clinically insane."
-1st Captain Sigismund of the Imperial Fists and Captain of the Luna Wolves 2nd Company.


#18
makari_the_grot

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Am I the only one who's noticed this:
quote- Kayvaan Shrike- "From the shadows we strike, fast and lethal, and by the time our enemies react- darkness there, and nothing more."
Corax's last word- "Nevermore."
See how it links? In Edgar Allan Poe's The raven:
There is the sentence "Darkness there, and nothing more."
The raven guard- the raven.
The only word the raven speaks in it is "Nevermore".
Corax translates into "raven".

Is it just me, or is this a bit too coincidental to be coincidental? :D


Don't forget Sergeant Alenpo, Instructor Sergeant, 4th Company. :)

To clarify, it hasn't been missed, it isn't coincidental or inadvertent, rather it is one of the least subtle references to a historical theme used in a Chapter. Unfortunately it doesn't translate through the rest of the Chapter's background and is largely down to snippets here and there.

;) missed that one. I'm doing a 2nd raven guard army, this time being heresy-era. The legion was split into detachments, then battle companies. My detachment is muninn (the raven in Poe's the raven is thought to be from norse mytholog, where Odin had two ravens- huginn and muninn, the latter ;) meaning memory.
My battle company is Gungir, Odin's spear which never missed.
My comander is commander Lenore ;) .
So it's heavily based on the raven.

#19
ravenguard2010

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Something has bothered me about the Raven Guard for a while and I thought I should bring it up here. There is obviously a degree of homage to the works of Edgar Allen Poe (one of the fathers of Gothic literature) in the Raven Guard (what with Corax's famous last line and the events following the drop site massacre). However, comparing Corax's established history, specifically the tale of his origin, to Poe's works, you see they are nothing a like, which always struck me as weird. 40K is supposed to be a gothic universe, but the one race with the most direct connection to Poe is barely gothic at all.

As a writer, Poe focused on

-Death, corpses, premature burial
-disease
-madness, hallucination
-supernatural and other worldly events

None of these show up in the raven guard back story, which tends towards the more heroic, sanitized version of the noble rebel.

I think there is a great deal of potential here and I would not be surprised if, when Black Library rolls around to making a Horus Heresy novel about the raven guard, they gain a bit of darker edge to them.


I have to respectfully disagree here as I think a few of these things have already been hinted at, and 'gothicness' is actually quite present throughout the backstory. I haven't read the fluff in a while now but here's what I remember off the top of my head:
After the catastrophe at the Drop Site Massacre where a massive majority of the chapter fell at the hands of the traitor legions, Corax allegedly became a shadow of his former self and locked himself away from the rest of the chapter. What happened here is merely hinted at, but it smacks of mental instability to me. A Primarch suffering from mental illness?? Blasphemy, I know! But also when he finally emerged he headed straight for the Eye of Terror, something that would either be the goal of a madman or at least a man of great desperation. So even if he wasn't actually insane at this point, the theme of madness is definately present.
Corax also ordered desperate biological experimentation to quickly boost the massively depleted ranks of the chapter. This experimentation echoes Shelley's Frankenstein, another famous piece of Gothic literature. The mortality rate of the experimental marines was really high, and the poor misshapen creatures that actually survived birth were later executed by Corax himself.

So to round that off, even with this brief examination of the backstory we can see at least death, masses of corpses, madness and perhaps even hallucination crossed off as actually being pretty prominant in the backstory.

But as for a Raven Guard Horus Heresy novel, I'm with you all the way brother!
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