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IA: Sublimators


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#1
Sigismund Himself

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The Sublimators

Ever Vigilant




B
orn as part of the Fourteenth Founding, the Sublimators have defended the Emperor’s territory against the alien, the heretic, the traitor and the mutant for millennia. For all this time, they have also guarded just as vigilantly against the dangers of pride and arro



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History

“And the heretics did tremble, hearing that the Sublimators had taken the field" excerpt from the Imperial record of the Slazian Purges
Origins

The time of the Thirteenth Founding is shrouded in dark rumours and conjecture. Little is known about the events surrounding it, let alone the chapters created. The Adeptes Mechanicus does not divulge information on Foundings easily in the best of circumstances but the Thirteenth's mere mention will cause stony faces and silent responses to any requests for information. This occasionally leads to active prosecution of any rumourmongers by the adepts of the the Machine God as their rabid desire for silence on the issue prevails. A number of Inquisition investigations have been ordained and numerous Data Probes launched but none have found anything substantial. The collapse of these investigations seems to be more due to internal conflict and frustration rather than any other factor.

By contrast, the Fourteenth Founding was seemingly a time of hope and success. The most stringent measures were used. Almost 80% of the chapters created used the holy geneseed of Roboute Guilliman. From these measures, a new chapter was born. With the geneseed drawn from the Ultramarines' line, the honour of commanding the fledgling chapter was given to Captain Damoret of the Aurora chapter’s Tenth Company. Accompanying him was a cadre of veterans and with these marines, Damoret forged a new chapter. He instilled his traits of stubbornness, honour and zeal into his chapter. The marines took their vows to the Emperor and to their new chapter as one, swearing loyalty as brothers unto death. Seeking to inspire his new charges, Damoret named them the Sublimators, for their purpose was to purify the galaxy. Taking a battle barge, the Apotheosis, newly forged in the fires of the forgeworld and a number of strike cruisers gifted from Damoret's old chapter, the Sublimators set course for the Eastern Fringe.

Damoret set out an ambitious plan of conquest. He vowed that the chapter would cleanse a great swathe of space plagued by raiders and xenos. It took the first 90 years of his command but eventually, his zealous plans were realized. Establishing a number of chapter keeps for resupplying his marines with munitions and recruits, Damoret continued on his crusade, forsaking a homeworld to continue on the liberation of planets from the rule of the impure. He swore that these planets he conquered would be never be sullied again by alien or heretic rule.

When Damoret fell in combat against the Dark Eldar on the plains of Cythra, his last words anointed Protus, the captain of the Second Company as the one to take up his mantle. A native of the Eastern Fringe, Protus had been one of the first recruits the chapter had taken. It was he who set down how the chapter was to defend the territory that Damoret had conquered. Having studied how to protect the Emperor’s territory, including such examples as the Cadian Gate and the realm of Ultramar, he lay out how the Sublimators were to defend the planets that they had sworn to protect. His strategy involved many elements, with many defensive and offensive measures. This included establishing a number of outposts on strategically important planets, the patrolling of space by the fleet and an altered company structure with rotation of duties. The strategy is still in use and has evolved remarkably little.

Protus anointed Sibus, the Captain of the First Company as his successor. This caused a little concern among the other captains. Master of Recruits, Captain Jorkan, was considered to be the first choice for Chapter Master. Sibus was a close friend of Protus, having risen through the ranks under him. Jorkan was seen more as a careful strategist and possessed a steel mind while Sibus was a commander who had a reputation for thinking on his feet and a brash personality. However, the other Captains' doubts were allayed by Sibus' actions in the Holding of Olot and the management of Protus' plans expansion. However, this faith was about to be undone.

The Fall of Sibus

The call for assistance came from the Planetary Governor of Girant, a world that the chapter had sworn to protect. He reported an attack by a vast force of Craftworld Eldar. Sibus immediately responded by sending the Second and Sixth Companies, under his command, to deal with the alien menace. The tides of the Immaterium were favourable and the strikeforce arrived in system mere seconds after the telepathic broadcast was made. The two companies made planetfall quickly while the two strike cruisers and escorts that had brought them safely to the world engaged the small Eldar fleet. Sibus commanded Captain Morkan to reinforce the main city's defenses with half of the Sixth Company while he led an offensive to the embattled PDF forces nearby with the remainder of the force. Morkan protested that he did not have enough marines to hold the city if any true force attacked it. Sibus dismissed these concerns, saying that the fleet that they had witnessed could not bear enough warriors to defeat even half a company. The mechanized force departed, not knowing that this would be the last time they saw their brothers alive. The force quickly reached the area where the PDF had been reported. The remnants of this force was pinned down in a valley. The Astartes had to conduct a number of missions to clear out the Eldar snipers that was keeping the PDF in the valley. The main Eldar force was nowhere to be seen but the commanding officer said that the PDF were driven here by a great host of Eldar. Sibus was seized with a sudden foreboding and ordered a swift fall-back to the city. The sight of their slaughtered brethren and the corpses of the citizens of the city greeted them as they returned.

Sibus was enraged. The xenos had killed his marines without any retaliation. He vowed this would change. Throwing caution to the winds, he ordered all the marines to mount once again and moved out to the last known location of the foul aliens. Chaplain Mortheus counseled against it, calling it the chapter master's duty to ensure the marines' bodies were recovered and to keep the strategic situation in mind. These words fell on deaf ears. Suddenly, the armoured column came under fire from all sides. Sibus' Land Raider was hit and he was forced to bail out. With his anger still at the forefront of his mind, he led an assault on the nearest enemy position. At first, it seemed so be working as the Eldar warriors were driven back. However, this only led them deeper into the aliens crossfire. The position seemed lost. Mortheus had survived the slaughter so far but could see his brothers falling around him. It was by his actions that the remaining marines were saved. Calling in orbital strikes on the enemy, an emergency orbital assault was conducted by the speeders and the remaining marines onboard of the fleet led by Librarian Azural. This was the turning of the battle and at the end of the day, the Sublimators banner flew forlornly from the main city of the planet, though only marines walked within its walls.

Sibus immediately withdrew to his quarters aboard the Righteous Blade. He spent a week alone, attended to by Mortheus. He emerged a broken marine. He had asked absolution of Mortheus, who had denied him it, saying his sins of pride and arrogance had betrayed his oaths to the Emperor, the chapter and the cost too many lives to be forgiven in his judgment. Sibus was to be taken before Reclusiarch Seuth for his fate to be decided. The prospect of his honour being stripped and his failures shown to those who he had commanded did not appeal to the Chapter Master. Trying to salvage what little honour he could, he resolved to exile himself and seek a honourable death in battle. Attended to by his command squad, whose vows bound them to him until his or their death, the Chapter Master fled the judgement of the chapter, taking a Thunderhawk to the planet's spaceport. He left his journal behind him to explain his actions and give the chapter one last command. Research by the Sublimators Librarium tracked him through a number of battles and campaigns until the Battle of Jirtan, where the trail grows cold.

Mortheus returned to the chapter along with the remaining marines, bearing the geneseed of the fallen and the Annals of Sibus. Contained within this tome were the last commands of Sibus as well as the rest of his feelings of guilt and hate. Among his last commands was the order for the office of Chapter Master to be abandoned. Mortheus presented this to his superiors. Great deliberation ensued as the leaders of the chapter considered their options. Following the commands of a madman and a traitor to his chapter made no sense, some argued while others agreed with the commands, pointing to Sibus’ own case and the excellent arguments that had been put forward. It was Jorkan, Master of Recruits and who was considered to be the next most likely Chapter Master, who led the argument for the command to be carried out. After many days of debate, it was decided that Sibus' last command would be carried out. A council was formed out of the marines who had been among the deliberations and the post of Chapter Master removed from the chapter's structure. With new purpose, the chapter looked to the future, determined not to repeat the mistakes of the past.

Chapter Organization

“No man must bear that burden. None," Annals of Sibus, last Chapter Master of the Sublimators


Company Roles as of 324 M40

First Company- Deployed as needed (cross ref/d-file_X453- First Company battles M40)
Second Company- Fleet duty
Third Company- Garrison duty
Fourth Company- Half under the guidance of Chaplain Mathias seconded to the Vocates honour company, other half under the command of Captain Bartholomew on Response duty
Fifth Company- Response duty
Sixth Company- Training and restocking



The Sublimators have not had a Chapter Master since Sibus. Instead, a council makes all the decisions a Chapter Master would make. This is to prevent the same mistakes that have been repeated in the Astartes’ history from the time of the Legions. The power of a thousand marines is too greater force for just one man, even a marine, to wield in the Sublimator's mind. The council is comprised of the Captains of the First and Tenth companies, the Master of Sanctity, the Chief Librarian, the Master of the Forge, the Chief of the Apothecarian and the eldest Dreadnought of the chapter. It was not until the tied vote on the issue of the Exterminatus of Mondas that the eldest dreadnought of the chapter was given a place on the council.

The chapter is split into ten Companies as per the Codex. Interestingly, the dreadnoughts of the chapter are also part of the First Company ever since the first dreadnought of the chapter was inducted into the First Company by Damoret. They are assigned as needed to the Companies, though it is not uncommon for a Dreadnought to adopt a Company as its own. These ancient warriors are much respected by the other marines. They have fulfilled their vows in duty to the Emperor by their death and thus no longer have need of vows.




Combat Doctrine

“The only passage they will find here will be to hell," Captain Viren of the Third Company, at the Defence of Goldur

The Sublimators still possess all the equipment and arms as of any Codex-adherent Space Marine chapter. This enables them to wage any form of warfare. However, as any fleet- based chapter, they have become very efficient at boarding actions and repelling them. In defensive measures, the chapter refuses to give ground to the enemy, relying on their brute strength and armour to protect them as they fight under the watchful eyes of their commanders. This also is seen in other matters. The Sublimators have only ever virus bombed one planet. They will often fight to clear a planet, although strategic estimates by Collegiate Tactica have marked it as lost to the Imperium.



The chapter defends a great swathe of Imperial space through the use of its fleet and of a number of outposts maintained by the chapter. The Sublimators are notoriously hazy of their fleet strength and the make up of their fleet. Imperial authorities estimate that the chapter has more than the average amount of Nova and Gladius type escorts. The prospect of these space combat ships in the hands of Astartes is regarded by the Inquisition to be a major problem, violating the charter of the Codex Astartes that Marines would possess ships but the vessels used to carry them to and ensure their insertion onto a planet. These ships trawl the space through a number of systems in the Eastern Fringe, transporting marines to combat zones, checking on planets and actively seeking enemies.

The Sublimators presence in a number of systems has come under scrutiny, particularly after the Warlords trial. Investigations by Inquisitor Valcan, a former acolyte of Maltheus found no evidence of empire building by the Sublimators. This is most likely due to the fact that they are a fleet bound chapter and have at most a chapter keep or fortress on a world. The purpose of these keeps is merely to keep watch on the planet and provide a staging or restocking area for the chapter should they ever need to strike from or defend the planet.

Geneseed

“Respect your brothers for they are kin," Astartes saying


The Sublimator’s geneseed has degenerated remarkably little over the millennia. This undoubtedly comes from the extremely strict measures used at their birth and the continuing work of the chapter's Apothecarian. All of their organs are in working condition. This is fairly remarkable considering the amount of time spent in space and the Warp by the marines.

The Sublimators still maintain a good relationship with their primogenitors, the Ultramarines and the chapter they drew that provided their first Chapter Master, the Aurora chapter. A celebratory feast after every time the two chapters encounter each other marks the depth of their relationship. The chapter also previously did not send any marines to the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Xenos, the Deathwatch. This changed as the council realized that they could use the information provided by such service. In most recent times though, brethren serving within the Deathwatch have returned home to the chapter to help in the fight against the Tyranids. The expertise in these veteran brothers has proved vital in the Sublimators' success against the aliens. It is rare for the Sublimators to commit any forces anywhere else other than the Eastern Fringe. The only recurring exception to this is the Vocates Honour Company whose purpose is to hunt down the renegade Reapers chapter.

The Fall of the Reapers came as a grievous surprise to the Sublimators. The now renegade chapter had proven a close friend to the Sublimators. When news first came to the chapter, it was greeted with disbelief and hostility, coming as it did from the Inquisition. However, once the force now dubbed the Harvestors attacked the Execrators homeworld, the Sublimators saw that no remnant of their once proud brothers remained. Vowing vengeance, the chapter dispatched
Beliefs

“Consider the predator. Let your soul be armoured with faith, driven on the tracks of obedience which overcomes all obstacles and armed with three great guns of Zeal, Duty and Purity," Anonymous
The Sublimators honour the Emperor as the Guardian of Mankind as do the majority of other Astartes. Roboute Guilliman and Damoret are also honoured as the Founders of the chapter. Damoret’s values of self-dependency, honour and stubbornness have been enshrined at the centre of the Chapter’s value system while Protus’ defensive strategies has ensured the safety of the planets under the Sublimators' protection. All of these men are honoured each day with prayers. It is not uncommon for a marine to pick one as his personal guardian and honour them over all others. This has led to conflict with the Ecclesiarchy as the equal position that the Chapter Masters can take with the Emperor in devotions. However, this has not been expressed formally since the threat of the Sublimators to stop the protection of the space around the Cardinal world of Brant.

Sibus' Annals are kept in the Librarium. Every brother is required to read it as part of his initiation into the Chapter. It shows them what damage can be caused by hubris and the danger of power. Many of the Sublimators key tenants have arisen from this book. Sibus' sins of pride and arrogance

In the past, the Sublimators bound themselves to worlds with pledges of protection. These worlds form fortresses and watch towers from which the chapter defends the systems around the planets. It is these worlds from which the chapters recruits hail from. Each world will often have their own trials, dependent on the tech level and terrain of the respective planet. Whatever world it is, the trials are extremely dangerous and rely on the recruits willpower and ability to operate on their own. It has been noted that while the Sublimators do protect the prison world of Goldur, they have never recruited a single prisoner from that particular place. Another point of interest is their often usage of feral or undeveloped worlds for recruits, rather a number of hive worlds that lie under their protection. Speculation by a number of sources point to various statistics and motives, but no definite answer has been found.



War Cry

The Sublimators have no set warcry, although Imperial scholars debate this. Marines will often take up the cries of their captains or start their own chants as they march into battle. Particularly spectacular warcries are recorded by Librarians and entered into the Librarium’s annals. It has been known for captains on the eve of battle, either stuck for inspiration or looking to inspire their charges, to take a warcry from the history of the chapter. As such, it is not unheard of for one warcry to have sounded all across the Eastern Fringe.

Edited by Sigismund Himself, 10 October 2008 - 08:32 AM.


#2
Hubernator

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Brilliant. I can't faults with it :) Nice job and a good pat on the back for you :) However there are 3 points I'd like to run over:
1.

Notes: First planet that Tyranids attack is Mirak.
Mirak has chapter keep, fairly large one.
7 Astartes stationed there at time of attack.
PDF fights etc.
Last remaining city evacuates into the chapter keep, PDF falls back to it as well.
Hold for X amount of time.
Taskforce arrives.
Terminators teleport down into the keep, drive back the Nid's offensive.
Rest of the force drop pods in.
Imperial Guard come in behind them, evacuate civilians.
Third and Fifth evacuate, taking dead, wounded and children of the refugees.
Veterans teleport back up.
Chapter keep destroyed from orbit.
Fight with Tyranid fleet, lots of damage done to world via orbital bombardment etc.
Leave.

Are you going to build upon this or just leave it as notes?

2. The name of the chapter is...fiddly. I don't know how you pronounce it :lol:

3. Since they're in the Eastern Fringe alot prepare to have a run-in with the Phantoms ;) ^_^

QUOTE (StrangeGuy @ Jan 28 2010, 02:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Jonny the Space Marine)
-Don't like Vampires. If they "sparkle" though, my wife and 2 daughters just may take up 40K!

Vampires don't sparkle!!!! *ragefilledheadexplosion*

#3
Severus6

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Extremely well done!

If I was going to nit-pick any part of this (and nit-pick is exactly what it would be) is the actions of the Chapter when they are seperated? Since they are council led and not Chapter master led what are the actions when a major decision is needed and the Chapter is spread across the expanse of their aadopted controlled space? I guess what I am asking is how much true power does a Company Commander have in those situations or is it simply do what must be done and plead your case later?

Regardless, very well done! You should be pleased.

Severus6
 



The only prize for second place in this game kiddies is a shallow grave. You had all better remember that, because I certainly wont forget it.
 

The rules for both chess and war remain the same: attack, defend, capture, and sacrifice. Win at all costs.

I only use my gun, whenever kindness fails.


#4
Commissar Molotov

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My (admittedly personal) problem with the Sublimators is that they've always seemed somewhat bland. I don't know if they seem the same way to others of the Oathbrethren. I dunno if it is the case, but some of the times I've talked to you on MSN, you've seemed somewhat unenthusiastic about them. With that said, I'm hoping this recent surge in the Vocates (with Darrell and Toyship returning) can promote some activity in all of us. ;)

The Sublimators are 'Purity of Deed'. To me, I think you perhaps need to emphasise that more. I'm not sure I see it exemplified in the Chapter.

'Words do not win wars, deeds do. Faith without deeds is worthless. You must glorify the Emperor with every action, that every Man gives all he has for the Imperium of Mankind. But one must not only act, they must act in the name of the Emperor in a way which glorifies the Emperor's name. It is such deeds that nurture the roots of the Imperium with the blood of heroes.'


Perhaps an obvious way of exemplifying 'Purity of Deed' would be to adopt attitudes somewhat similar to the Emperor's Children, where everyone was meant to specialise in their key task until they were 'perfect'. Another would be to perhaps consider a way of war where they meticulously plan everything, so that the absolute minimum of force required is applied, crushing the enemy with ease. I'm just brainstorming here, and you could look at including other ideas.

----

General notes:

In the origins section, you mention that Damoret 'established a number of Chapter Keeps'. You don't say why he did it. You might argue it's obvious, but I don't think it's a practise common to the Aurora, and so you might want to say that because he was conducting a long Crusade, he decided to install Chapter Keeps to recruit/store supplies/whatever. That layer of detail would benefit you.

You say 'after having studied how to protect the Emperor's territory from the Cadian Gate to the realm of Ultramar', which is confusing. I think you mean to say that he studied how those areas were protected - right now you make it seem like he drew up plans to protect the entire Imperium, which seems more than a little confusing. Also, you say 'Was chosen as his successor' - who chose Protus? Was he elected? Did Damoret choose him as he died?

Whilst you don't make it clear, did Protus only choose Sibus because he was his friend?

I'm also not sure about the use of 'penitence crusade' to discuss Sibus. You could so something like: 'Sibus left the Sublimators as an exile, attended to by his Command Squad. He was determined to salvage what honour remained his in battle.' or something. I don't know. It's just 'penitent crusade' tends to be a label attached to a Chapter as a whole. Also, did his Command Squad volunteer to accompany their Commander? Doesn't abandoning the Chapter seem a little dishonourable? You could consider having him commit suicide - it's something that's not really seen very often with regards to the Space Marines, but it might reinforce the idea that if something is not done right for the Sublimators, they're deeply, deeply shamed - purity of deed.

(I do note that there's a tendency so far in this article to refer to dozens of battle-names. I'm not sure if these throwaway references help ground the Chapter, because some of them seem almost gratuitous.)

Whilst I appreciate it's still in note-form, I don't think that the Hive-Fleet Terminus section needs a place in your IA. Make it a side-bar. As it is, it's distracting; you break up the flow and the chronological progression of your Chapter by jumping from the shame of Sibus to the arrival of the Tyranids.

Some of your differences need explanation. For example, you say that the Chapter didn't send Marines to the Deathwatch, but now they do. Why didn't they send Marines to the Deathwatch?


--------

Okay, back to the 'Purity of Deed' aspect. I think the Council certainly helps towards that end, because you're approaching it from the angle that by replacing a weak and ineffectual Chapter Master with a Council, you've made things more secure. But building on what Severus said, you could perhaps have certain Captains who have in the past felt constrained by the Council - needing to wait for actions to be debated and agreed upon, so on and so forth.

The 'penitent Crusade' thing makes some sense, but I can't imagine it'd be a common thing, because you're losing a Marine, power armour, weaponry and progenoids every time they leave. There's not necessarily a guarantee that they'll return, either.

I think you could mention how service in the Deathwatch, etc, allows the Brothers to learn new tactics which they can put together with their traditional ones to further refine their way of war.

Still, some good ideas here - I'm definitely keen to see the Vocates move forwards. Hope to read more soon.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that in the past we'd agreed that the Sublimators contribute heavily to the Honour Company. You might want to mention that. I'm aware of that sidebar, but I think you could expand on that, explaining why they see the Honour Company as something valuable/important/necessary, perhaps.

Edited by Commissar Molotov, 31 May 2008 - 04:41 PM.

 
QUOTE (voi shet magir @ May 31 2011, 05:38 AM) 
That is an unexpectedly strong assertion from a dead person.

#5
Sigismund Himself

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Hubernator- I'm planning to expand upon that section. It's pronounced as (to my mind at least) Sublim- (as in Sublime) ators.

Sev- Thanks. I've always seen the Captains also having another marine as in a Librarian or Chaplain accompanying them that simply watches what they are doing, ready to step in if they judge the Captain has overstepped his bounds. They also report back to the council about him. Apart from that, they have a fair bit of autonomy. The council is for fairly major decisions.

Mol- I felt they were bland before. But not now. That's because I was trying to shoehorn them in a way that wasn't working. Part of the reason I wasn't so enthusiastic about them. But now I've taken them in a slightly different way. Purity of Deed is still reflected by the council but I've also introduced the chapter's swearing of vows as their Purity of Deed. I really didn't want to go the EC way of perfection.

'After having studied how to protect the Emperor's territory from the Cadian Gate to the realm of Ultramar'- I just need to reword that bit.

Whilst you don't make it clear, did Protus only choose Sibus because he was his friend?

More like he was the most familiar with his skills and was the person that he would entrust with the chapter.

Sibus' penitent crusade- agreed, it would work better as an exile. The command squad accompanies him as they swore to protect him until either him or they were dead. Mortheus agreed to them accompanying him as well.

Tyranids- I think they will warrent a place in the article. I'll review once I've expanded upon it.

The 'penitent Crusade' thing makes some sense, but I can't imagine it'd be a common thing, because you're losing a Marine, power armour, weaponry and progenoids every time they leave. There's not necessarily a guarantee that they'll return, either.

The marine's progenoids are removed before he leaves. He takes only his bolter and his power armour. It isn't that common but maybe one or two squads every 500 years.

I'm waiting for some more info on the Vocates before I put some of that info in.

#6
Commissar Molotov

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I didn't say your Tyranid section didn't deserve a place in your article (though at the moment it could certainly be argued that's the case.) I had said that you should put it as a sidebar. At the moment it ruins the structure and flow of your article, because you talk about Sibus, end on a cliffhanger, skip forward X thousand years, talk about Tyranids, skip back X thousand years and start talking about the consequences of Sibus. That's bad.

On a slightly different note, I'm curious about the role of Protus. From a narrative point of view, Protus adds very little to the Chapter as-is. His insertion in the article feels a little gratuitous - it doesn't add that much. He basically seems to function as "Example of Good Chapter Master." - but then even that disrupts with your themes, because the Sublimators could have said "Well, the next Chapter Master could be a Protus and not a Sibus." or so. That Master of Recruits, if he was still alive, could've taken over and led the Chapter into a Golden Age.

To me, the Sublimators are still somewhat bland (which is a disappointment). I don't see them as dripping with character. I can see that you want the Council to be part of the 'Purity of Deed'. That's fine - the idea of Space Marines having some form of oversight (without resorting to the Inquisition as a crutch) is a good theme, and the idea of a power-sharing Council has an actualised precedent in the Iron Hands. But if you want to push the Council, push the Council. There's really only one full-on paragraph about them in the whole article. You should be telling us what their responsibilities are, if there are any limitations, so on and so forth. What effects the Council have had on the Chapter - what steps have been taken to prevent another Sibus? How has it changed the Chapter's mindset? Are Marines more likely to question their orders? Does it affect their ability to think on their feet? Are Captains ever wary of being hauled in front of the Council by overzealous 'advisors'?

Equally, the 'vow' thing is done poorly, to my mind. You've got two sentences on the vows - 'they vow not to forsake their brothers'. Okay. So do all Chapters, though! Making a vow is just the Space Marine equivalent of 'I'm going to try, really, really hard. I promise." - Is that 'Purity of Deed'? I don't know. Equally, you say that Sibus was guilty of forsaking his vows. What vows? Isn't he guilty of forsaking his vows by running off from the Chapter? Plus, he's a Chapter Master. Why is he allowing Mortheus to run roughshod over him? He's just a Chaplain, not even the Master of Sanctity. Who is Mortheus to be giving Sibus 'permission' to do anything? :D

In certain sections, I think the article is letting you down. You might have some good ideas, but I don't think you're expressing them in a way that does them justice. If 'Purity of Deed' is a theme, it's not apparent. It doesn't seem shot through every single aspect of the Chapter in a way that I might have imagined. Equally, there's plenty of sentences that repeat, places where you explain one thing and explain it again later, or references that just seem gratuitous.

EDIT: I knew I forgot something - given your "No one man should have too much power" attitude - how would the Sublimators have seen Goge Vandire? What did they do during the Age of Apostasy?

Edited by Commissar Molotov, 31 May 2008 - 11:33 PM.

 
QUOTE (voi shet magir @ May 31 2011, 05:38 AM) 
That is an unexpectedly strong assertion from a dead person.

#7
Sigismund Himself

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I think the Tyranids section is too big to be put in a sidebar though. I do see the issue in the chronology aspect.

Protus invented the defence scheme that the chapter still uses today. I thought that was important enough for him to be mentioned. He was a strategic genius and his strategies are still used today. All three of the chapter's Chapter Masters have had a huge impact on them. Damoret grounded them in stubbornness and introduced the vows to the chapter. Protus defined the defence system that would help the chapter survive and protect their territory. Sibus changed the structure of the chapter and changed their mindset.

I'll try and expand on the council more as you say.

The chapter master is a wreck. He's betrayed himself and his chapter by his actions. The Chaplain is the spiritual advisor. You'd think his advice would prove invaluable to this marine who is grasping at anything. I might change it so that Sibus runs off, thus forsaking his other vows as well, to seek forgiveness in death.

Purity of Deed doesn't need to be shot through the chapter at every turn, to my mind. There are elements in there that would lead Maltheus to put them as Purity of Deed. It doesn't have to be completely obvious to my mind. The vows and oaths section is more widespread than two sentences. If you look throughout the article, you can see other mentions of this practice.

I think I need to redefine Purity of Deed. Something along these lines-

"Only by fulfilling your duty to its utmost can you ever hope to prove yourself. Match your words with deeds. You must not be swayed by any personal longings or desires in your duties. Your actions must be dedicated to the Emperor and have no other motive than to serve the Emperor to the best of your ability."

Given that the chapter is out on the Eastern Fringe, I don't know what action they would have seen or info they would have known about the Age of Apostasy during it. But it's an area of expansion that could be done. Afterward, they would definitely see it as reinforcing their beliefs.

Does anybody else see these guys as bland though? :(

#8
Severus6

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I've always seen the Captains also having another marine as in a Librarian or Chaplain accompanying them that simply watches what they are doing, ready to step in if they judge the Captain has overstepped his bounds. They also report back to the council about him.


So there is an inner circle so to speak,...those who watch the commanders? Thats interesting, and rather paranoid in a way,...its a nice twist for a chapter that seems very interested in making certain that things dont go awry. Granted I think all Chapters are like that but others seem to be more adaptable or at least less rigid. basically its neither form or function that take top priority,...its both,...it not only has to be done right, it has to look good as well. Nothing else will do,...a lot of nice underlying tension in that. Commanders that are worried about being reported, Librarians and Chaplains watching your every move,....planning must be an aboslute chore in your Chapter. Its a good underlying theme,...I am curious to know where you will go with it.

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#9
Severus6

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I went back and re-read this and this keeps coming back to me: what does it take for a Marine to attain forgiveness and return to the fold? What proof is required if any,...what is the final word on this?

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The only prize for second place in this game kiddies is a shallow grave. You had all better remember that, because I certainly wont forget it.
 

The rules for both chess and war remain the same: attack, defend, capture, and sacrifice. Win at all costs.

I only use my gun, whenever kindness fails.


#10
Darrell

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At any rate, I read through the Sublimators.

I think that the Sublimators are lacking a good, solid core. Not just "purity of deed", but any kind of solid core concept at all. The most defining aspect seems to be that they use a council instead of a Chapter Master, but that's not a unique aspect. As has been mentioned, the Iron Hands also have a similar form of leadership. Aside from the council, and the large section about Sibus, the article could be describing almost any Codex-adherent Chapter of the Space Marines. What makes the Sublimators unique amongst nine hundred ninety-nine other Chapters? Why are they the Sublimators and not the Praetors of Orpheus? Right now, what differentiates them isn't the aspects they have, but rather the aspects they don't. They're different from the Iron Hands only because they don't have an unhealthy fascination with metal, for instance, rather than having some awesome trait that only the Sublimators have.

Even the reasons why they have a council seem flawed. Why bother listening to the last orders given by a man who was seen as being no longer fit to lead? This was a man whose arrogance and short-sightedness cost the lives of good Astartes and who, when called to answer for his decisions, decided to flee rather than face punishment like a man. It doesn't make sense, to me, why the Sublimators continue to give his name so much weight. Why do they care what he does while he is in exile? I'd be surprised if they wanted to take him back at all, unless he was carrying Abaddon's head on a pike or something. I could see his annals beind held up as an example of how not to be an Astartes, but people looking for him to come back and save them seems kind of strange. They're placing this man who couldn't face up to the consequences of his actions on the same level as their Primarch in that regard.

I think squads asking to be placed on a penitence crusade for failing to complete a vow might be extreme, depending on the nature of a vow. Astartes don't always succeed, and if they're losing a squad every time a mission fails then they're probably losing brethren to crusades faster than to casualties! I think asking for a chance to redeem themselves seems like a worthy notion, but it shouldn't require them to leave the Chapter. I think it would actually be a good idea for them to be kept with the Chapter. Consider the example of Sibus, who fled from the Sublimators rather than face his punishment. I think one of the responsibilities of the council should be to ensure that kind of behavior is not repeated; people should be held accountable for their mistakes. Fleeing the Chapter to find redemption is just following in the footsteps of Sibus, but I think you should take it the opposite direction.

Even some of the background with Sibus seems strange. Why did he run off to help the PDF right away? Why didn't he make contact first to see what was going on before he distributed his forces? That would seem like a pretty normal routine for an arriving Brother-Captain. What's the situation, where is the enemy, how many are there, where are your forces threatening to crumble, where do you have the enemy on the run, et cetera. You make it sound like he just deployed blindly, but why would he do that?

There are some flaws in the writing of the IA; sometimes you repeat yourself. Another example is you first mention the Sublimators fighting a splinter fleer on Mirak, then at the end you mention a frequently used battle cry is "Remember Marik!". Those will probably change as you work on the IA some more, but it's something you should try to keep an eye out for. Sentences like "His strategy involved many elements, with many defensive and offensive measures" can interrupt the flow of the article and interrupt your reader's attention.

As others have said, it's not exactly clear why Protus and Sibus were chosen to lead. The way the article is presented, Sibus seems to mainly have been chosen because he and the Chapter Master were friends. That's not necessarily a bad thing, though, as it further shows how Chapter Masters can be dangerous; appointing successors based on friendship, instead of ability, is just one more way the power of office can be misused.

The biggest change that the article needs is a focus for the Chapter. What is the main appeal the Sublimators have? What sets them apart from every other Chapter? Right now, there doesn't really seem to be anything. It's sort of like a huge, empty puff pastry just begging for a creme filling. You just need to decide what flavor you want in there.
"You are not free whose liberty is won by the vigour of other, more righteous souls. You are merely protected. Your freedom is parasitic, you suck the honourable man dry and offer nothing in return. You who have enjoyed freedom, who have done nothing to earn it, your time has come."

"You may cleave to your courage but that will fail you, look to your weapons but you will find them not enough. Run, fight, hide, pray, cry out or cower -- it does not matter, for we are come."
— Fafnir Rann, Patriarch and first High Executioner of the Executioners Chapter

#11
Sigismund Himself

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And this is where I return to the thread.... Please take it outside guys.

A draft is being worked on. I thought it had a lot more character than what is evidently thought.

Octa, I'd wait until the next draft. Then you can rip into the grammar and mispelling. I'll try not to leave too much work for you ;)

Darrell, keep in mind that I had changed Sibus' reaction but not adjusted the rest of the article. This will be brought into line.

Edited by Sigismund Himself, 03 June 2008 - 04:50 AM.


#12
Barret

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I love the smell of burning posts late at night. Let's keep this focused on the Sublimators, shall we? Darrell, Octavulg, if either of you want any of the content of your expunged posts back or wish to discuss this, PM me.


Moving on... Sig, I've given the Sublimators as a read as you've asked, and I'll be back in a few minutes to do a proper read and give some feedback.
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#13
Barret

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Alright, now that I've read it properly, I have some thoughts.

Overall, it's quite good, and I like where you're going with a lot of things in the article, especially with the exiled Master and the Commissar-esque Chaplains. That said, however, it's still missing something for me, something that really sets them apart. I think you really need to push the two themes I mentioned. I think I got what you're saying, and where you're going, but I think it needs more. More on the Council, how they function, how that has affected Chapter organization and doctrine, and the thinking behind. I'd also love to see more on the Vows. You do talk about it a bit, and mention them in a few places, but I want to read the details! Is there a formalized process behind the Vows? What are the rituals entailed? How did this practice come about? What is its affect on the officers and brothers of the Chapter? Does it have something to do with the Council? Does a Captain make vows to the Council, Sergeants to their Captain and Battle-Brothers to their Sergeants? Do the Chaplains and Librarians watch over this? Is it part of the normal doctrine, or something outside of it?

Basically...more. Mooooore! ;)


It's shaping up well thus far, and I can see the improvements from the last draft I read.
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QUOTE (Blitzkreig)
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#14
nurglespuss

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I really like it, they sound noble if somewhat reserved. I don't know where the others are getting 'bland' from. However, I do agree that the tyranid bit spoils the structure of the piece.

Great work!!
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#15
Sigismund Himself

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Thanks, NP.

I can see where the others are coming from, even if I don't quite fully agree with them. Eventually, I will get back to doing these guys, when I find a spare moment or two.