45 replies to this topic

[Brother Vyze]

Over the past few months, I have noticed an overall decline in participation of B&C members in the Primarch Project. While this is not necessarily a bad thing (fewer opinions means more agreement) it has slowed the Project down significantly, almost to the point where I no longer believe this project will get done in a reasonable time frame. Therefore, what I have done here is compiled links to every Primarch's work page, much like in Brother Tyler's Primarch Project Thread. I have, however, sorted them into three categories. There are three categories:

Working Rules: Simple here. The Primarch has working rules. The link provided will bring you to a post (most likely mine for simplicities sake) that has the current rules on it (usually with other clutter removed from the post). It is these topics that, unless anyone objects or 5th edition changes anything, I am asking Brother Tyler to close (entirely at his discretion). This is by no means a statment saying that you should not suggest anything. If you have a good idea, tells us.

Minor Work: These Primarch have working rules. However, they might not be totally adherent to fluff, some mechanic might not work, or is under/overpowered. The link provided will, most likely, link to the first page of the topic. I am asking here for simple things to be answered (How much should Corax cost? and others) that would allow the Primarch to be competed to everyone’s satisfaction.

Help!!!: These are the problem ones. This is the real reason I am creating this list. Simply put, these Primarchs have little or no working rules (Magnus for example), have too many conflicting ideas (Horus), or simply have not been touched upon in many months (Guilliman). What I need here is people who know their fluff (If you have read the Horus Heresy novels or are a fan of the Primarch in question, that’s you!) to post ideas that could help create workable rules for the Primarch. If you have not contributed before, you should read Brother Tyler’s Primarch Project Thread as well as looking at the Primarch Core Rules for the base stats and Special Rules of the Pre-Hersey Primarchs.

With that out of the way here is the list.

Working Rules - 11 out of 24 (48%)
Vulkan
Pre-Heresy Angron
Post-Heresy Angron
Pre-Heresy Perturabo
Post-Heresy Perturabo
Dorn
Konrad Cruze (3rd page, last post)
Post-Heresy Mortarion
Alpharius
Sanguinius
Ferrus Manus

Minor Work - 6 out of 24 (24%)
Pre-Heresy Lorgar
Pre-Heresy Mortarion
Jaghatai Khan
Pre-Heresy Fulgrim
Post-Heresy Fulgrim
Corax

Help!!! - 7 out of 24 (28%)
Lion El'Jonson
Leman Russ
Pre-Heresy Magnus The Red
Post-Heresy Magnus The Red
Roboute Guilliman
Post-Heresy Lorgar
Horus

The fact that almost half of them have completed and with another quarter almost have completed rules is a very good sign.

This list is not definitive in its rulings, I made it simply to point out those Primarchs that I felt needed the most help, and those that did not. The Done section however is based off of the majority of opinions presented in the threads and is not entirely my own opinion.

I am sorry for the lengthy post, but I felt it was needed.

Edited by Brother Vyze, 14 July 2008 - 09:33 PM.

[Silent Shadow]

Great idea, I'm not sure how many people will take notice of this of this as a whole but we can hope, I fully support this and will help out with the rest since I was unsure about which needed more attention etc. I really hope the primarchs will one day be completed

[Brother Tyler]

Believe me, I'm all for wrapping this up as soon as it's ready. As long as we have a consensus when a Primarch is "done" (I know that there will be dissenters, so I don't expect a unanimous conclusion) I can close the discussion(s).

[Brother Vyze]

Just to let everone know, on this Saturday, the 12th (or where ever I get around to it) I will be posting notes next to the Primarchs in the 'Done' pile who will need rules changed because of 5th edition.

As to the +1 WS thing, Chaos Lords have been fighting for thousands of years, longer than many of the Primarchs were even alive. To have the same WS would not be too surprising (not to mention the deamonic gifts that could come into play). The Deamon Primarchs should at least be WS7 (except for Magnus because he is not a fighter).

[Brother Tyler]

And just to let everyone have some clarification, "consensus" means that the majority of people [involved in the project] agree on something. So any individuals may indicate that they think that a Primarch's rules development has reached completion. But that's just one person's opinion.

Let's find another method.

Should I post polls for each of the Primarchs to determine which are "done"?

As for changes based on 5th edition, let's give it a bit of time (maybe a month or so) for everyone to get the new rules. We can start the discussion now, but any Primarchs who are being changed will have a bit of time so that everyone who wants to has a reasonable amount of time to get the rules in order to participate in the discussions.

[Brother Vyze]

The poll sounds like a great idea.

I will change the 'done' pile to 'working rules' as well, to avoid any confusion between my opinion and a general consensus.

Maybe asking the Chapter Forums if there Primarch fits the fluff as well.

Edited by Brother Vyze, 14 July 2008 - 09:35 PM.

[SeerDude]

I agree a poll sounds the fairest way to decide if its done.

[Silent Shadow]

What are the updated status' of the primarchs as this hasn't been updated in awhile?

Lion El'Jonson is finished as far as I can tell and I'm just wondering which others are finished/need work, so I can try and update them.

[Silent Shadow]

At the moment I'm trying to finish the pre-heresy primarchs, but obviously it's also up to others opinion whether they're finished or not.

[gil galed]

Can i make two points

1/ Should we not update the primarchs to grant chapter trait rules as current special characters in the SM Codex so
2/ I think Primarchs should have a uniform 500pt cost across the board for all primarchs, this removes x isn't as good as y and also allows some room to make them a smidgen more powerful (probs things like chapter tactics)

Edited by gil galed, 29 April 2009 - 06:15 PM.

[Silent Shadow]

1/ Should we not update the primarchs to grant chapter trait rules as current special characters in the SM Codex so

I suggested this in the primarch core rules, but I'm not sure if this would tip their price/power into the daemon primarch range, which means we would have to make them more powerful which may make them unfair.

2/ I think Primarchs should have a uniform 500pt cost across the board for all primarchs, this removes x isn't as good as y and also allows some room to make them a smidgen more powerful (probs things like chapter tactics)

Then what do we do about the daemon primarchs? Their base cost tends to be 500-600ish, making them more powerful would only make the game unfair.

[gil galed]

1/ Should we not update the primarchs to grant chapter trait rules as current special characters in the SM Codex so

I suggested this in the primarch core rules, but I'm not sure if this would tip their price/power into the daemon primarch range, which means we would have to make them more powerful which may make them unfair.

2/ I think Primarchs should have a uniform 500pt cost across the board for all primarchs, this removes x isn't as good as y and also allows some room to make them a smidgen more powerful (probs things like chapter tactics)

Then what do we do about the daemon primarchs? Their base cost tends to be 500-600ish, making them more powerful would only make the game unfair.

Making something more powerful does not make it unfair, it makes them cost more, it should be an important difference, secondly why do Daemon princes have to be particularly more powerful than their loyalist counter parts? if this was true then they would have beaten them in the heresy, or post heresy

[Arikromus]

Technically they could have, if they all decided to invade at once...
Which they don't do, because they're too busy arguing with each other while Abaddon makes his Black Crusades. Of all of them, I think Angron's the only one that's taken an army out of the Eye of Terror.

Perhaps a point suggestion here:
Primarchs: 500 pts
Daemon Primarchs: 600 pts
Traitor Horus: 700 pts

It would create a scaled system.

[gil galed]

Technically they could have, if they all decided to invade at once...
Which they don't do, because they're too busy arguing with each other while Abaddon makes his Black Crusades. Of all of them, I think Angron's the only one that's taken an army out of the Eye of Terror.

Perhaps a point suggestion here:
Primarchs: 500 pts
Daemon Primarchs: 600 pts
Traitor Horus: 700 pts

It would create a scaled system.

as noted in other threads i completely agree with this costing system

[Arikromus]

I'd also like opinions on this suggestion from other balance-savvy forumites, please.

[gil galed]

I'd also like opinions on this suggestion from other balance-savvy forumites, please.

You mean people except you and me in the primarch project Arikr? i suppose we could wait a few months...

[Brother Tyler]

I'll try to sit down and go through the various ideas sometime in the near future (when I'm not focused on the slew of other projects I'm participating in or RL).

[Hialmar]

I can claim no special expertise as far as a points balance expert, but have been playing this game since Rogue Trader in all of its guisesand as the general point here seems to be to develop fluff correct (to the point possible) Primarchs/Daemon Primarchs to be used in gameplay, strictly with an emphasis on the fun aspect of things looking at the point baseline proposed on May 5th I would think you are pretty much in the ballpark in regards to the base points with perhaps individual tweaking needed for various Primarchs if some rule gives provides some advantage/disadvantage.

At the end of the day I think most of these guys, all other things being equal, should be able to stand toe-to-toe together for several turns without either side gaining a big advantage. Eventually the best of the bunch (however arguable that point is) would prevail and their points should ultimately reflect that, but they should mostly be close run things. And at the same time with few exceptions in the 40K world (such as a Chaos God, A Healthy Emperor) the Primarchs should be able to individually drop anything without too much trouble.

This is my long-winded way of saying I agree with your baseline and if I get a chance I will try and add my two cents to any of the Primarchs that need additional work that I think I can meaningfully contribute to.

[Hemal]

Hey guys, I'd be interested to get back involved in this, as I do feel a certain ownership to the Primarchs project :-)

[gil galed]

Hey guys, I'd be interested to get back involved in this, as I do feel a certain ownership to the Primarchs project :-)

nice to have another person in on it

[Hemal]

Hey guys, I'd be interested to get back involved in this, as I do feel a certain ownership to the Primarchs project :-)

nice to have another person in on it

Consider my (re)appearance more a return from a long period AWL... (Bro Guillermo and myself were the two main drivers on teh very first Primarchs thread, some 10 years ago I beleive!)

[Arikromus]

Te-te-ten years???

<dives into Primarchs thread>

Nice to have you back, though!

<forcibly closes mouth>

Edited by Arikromus, 08 June 2009 - 06:00 PM.

[Raven Angel]

Might take me a few days but I will add my 2 cents where it might be needed.

[Arikromus]

Primarchs: 500 pts
Daemon Primarchs: 600 pts
Traitor Horus: 700 pts

Preferably, I would like as many people as possible giving me an opinion on this points system. Please do not reply if you have done so already.

[Raven Angel]

It sound good as long as we can wriggle a good bit. If a guys fluff just won't justify it I don't want to have to buff him up just to meet a number and by the same token if this guy ends up shooting past a number by a good bit to do a good representation I don't want to have to nerf him.