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Help my Space Wolf friend


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34 replies to this topic

#1
Kaptin Jackboot

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Greetings adversaries!

I am writing this post to help my friend who plays space wolves. It turns out his army is very challenged to beat the other armies in our gaming group. In fact he his win-loose ratio is about 1-20. Of course, army lists aren't everything, it also comes down to skill, but we have switched armies and found out that his wolves have a hard time. So I'm asking you to help my friend retain faith in his wolves. He's a good guy to play against an his army is beautifully painted so I would hate it if he dropped out of the hobby.

Anyway, I'm going to post his current 1000p army and one of my armies and maybe you can give him tips on how to tune his army to better stand a chance. The other armies he plays against is tank-heavy imperial guard, mech tau and nurgle chaos marines.


Space wolves 1000p

1 Wolf guard battle leader
Terminator armour, power weapons, storm bolter

Bodyguard
4 Wolf guards
Terminator armour
2 w/ power weapon, storm bolter
2 w/ assault cannon, chainfist

1 Wolf guard battle leader
Combi-melta, ccw

9 Grey Hunters
1 Meltagun
1 Powerfist

10 Grey Hunters
Meltagun
1 Powerfist

1 Landspeeder
w/ Multimelta

1 Landspeeder
w/ Multimelta

1 Whirlwind

This army is 28 models at 999 points.


Here comes my ork army that he regularly faces:

Blood axes 1000p

1 Big mek
Kustom force field

12 sluggas w/ nob, power klaw, bosspole and trukk

12 sluggas w/ nob, power klaw, bosspole and trukk

20 sluggas w/ nob, power klaw, bosspole, 2 rokkits

20 shootas w/ nob, power klaw, bosspole, 2 big shootas

1 deffkopta w/ twin rokkit, buzz saw

2 skorchas

1 killa kan w/ rokkit

1 killa kan w/ rokkit


The thing is he always gets overwhelmed and whiped out. He can't deal with all the orkz before they reach charge range and when the charge comes he gets totally pawned.

Please help my friend tune his 1000p list to work better.

#2
Lord Ragnarok

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First thing I notice is that he should lose the Multi Meltas for Heavy Flamers. Massed orks + no cover armor save from high strength flamer = lots of fried fungus.

Trade a few more melta guns for flamers.

The other thing is that the ork army is much stronger at 1000 pts. I think in order to be more competitve (until I our dex is released) we can only compete in higher pt games v/s orks. You can just field too many boyz in such a lower pt contest. SM's, and especially SW's, are too high in cost to compete with so many ork bodies. Can't field enough stuff to make up for the much lower numbers. Just something for him to keep him motivated when he wants to play you in larger battles.

Edited by Lord Ragnarok, 15 July 2008 - 11:07 AM.

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"This is not the first time you've been left to fate. I can see it in your manner. It takes something from you doesn't it? Being deserted hollows you out and leaves a void inside. People might say that it hurts, that the psyche aches from the wound. It's not true though. Abandonment does not leave pain. You wished it did because that would be better than the truth. It leaves nothing. Not hope, not pain, not forgiveness."

#3
Kaptin Jackboot

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Thanks for the reply, Lord Ragnarok.

Your call for flamers is noted, but as you say, the orkz field too many bodies at 1000p for it to really matter. And he has to be able to take on IG as well, with loads of tanks. Problem with those speeders are that they're one-trick ponies. He advances fires and is shoot down.

The thing is, I don't understand how he will be able to do better at 1.5K since I will be fielding more bodies still. Let's sacrifice a bear's paw to the GW-gods and hope for a great SW codex.

#4
Lord Ragnarok

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Going to 2000 pts opens up more armor. Orks still have a little trouble with armor. Dakka Preds, Whirlies, flamers where you can get them, Standard bolter, and Vindicators. Also he can make use of large packs of BC's 15 Blood Claws with 4 attacks on the charge(and possible 4 attacks getting charged now in 5th) will even make an ork pause.

But it may be one of those things where he has to bring the bar down on his expectations. For example a tie is really a win because he is really behind the 8 ball v/s a particular army. A loss in some cases may be a tie if it was close.

For example...I run a all DP army. I would have a very tough time with horde orks or nids. When I play those armies I know it will be difficult if not impossible to win. If I'm able to make it close and bloody them up I consider that a win(privatley). On the same token my armor eats MEQ's and elite armies for breakfeast so I I only manage to scrape by with a win I consider it a tie.

Also, in time he will become a very good general. What does not kill you makes you stronger.

Edited by Lord Ragnarok, 15 July 2008 - 12:28 PM.

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"This is not the first time you've been left to fate. I can see it in your manner. It takes something from you doesn't it? Being deserted hollows you out and leaves a void inside. People might say that it hurts, that the psyche aches from the wound. It's not true though. Abandonment does not leave pain. You wished it did because that would be better than the truth. It leaves nothing. Not hope, not pain, not forgiveness."

#5
Kaptin Jackboot

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That's a good inspirational speech - I shall relay it to him!

Our aim is to play at 1750 and I deem he will be able to field a more balanced army then. Problem is that he must be able to deal with both my ork horde and IG tanks, so he needs las preds as well as those of the dakka pattern. But that's a nice challenge for him.

At present he's at the point where he almost won't play because the outcome is always the same. But with a new codex and more points I think he'll make do.

How would you design an all-comers army at 1000p? If you have time, please jot it down!

Thanks again!

#6
Jonny Wolf

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Lose the Multi-Meltas on the Land Speeders immediately!! Turn them things into tornados! With two Tornados that's 8 Str6 shots for 24" and 6 Str 5 shots for 36"!

And like lord Rag's said, get some flamers too.
For the Wolftime, praise Russ!

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#7
deedark

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There's a lot of points in those termis for 1000pt army about 1/3 of the size - great unit but will just get overwhelmed

I'd drop'em get some BCs and have a got at the greenskins
15BCs lead buy a WGBL is going to be close to your termis in points value but puts a lot more
models on the table and I think having a go and losing is better than just losing

I would use Speeder with HBs rather than MM

But as Rag said at 1000pts he may be outnumbered 2-1 at best
Death smiles on those who do not know or understand the ways of the wolf

#8
Kaptin Jackboot

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Tornadoes it is! It is more versatile an more able to deal death at range. I believe tornades are 15p more than melta-speeders so I need to loose two hunters to make that happen.

Thanks for the tip. Anyone else want to chime in, feel free!

#9
deedark

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If your going to use speeders stick to HBs as with 5th rules you cant move at speed and fire both HB and AC and you need
to be moving to keep your speeders alive, the 60pts saved on the two AC will buy you another Speeder with HB plus it gives him 3 targets
to worry about that can hurt his boyz, fly them up and down you table edge firing or out flank him.
Death smiles on those who do not know or understand the ways of the wolf

#10
Max_Dammit

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WW with mines

Make him come to you trough the mines, walking trough mines will hurt orks with low saves
Sigismund replied.'"Are we going to scrap about it now. Argue which Legion is the toughest?
The answer always is, the Wolves of Fenris" Torgadon put in "because there clinically insane."
-1st captain of the imperial fists and Captain of the 2nd Company of the luna wolves.
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#11
Kaptin Jackboot

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@Deedark. Thanks for chiming in. Good idea. Standing still with speeders will be bad so cheap ones with just HB will be better.

@Max_dammit: Thanks for your reply. I do think that vengence missiles is better since the damage is direct. With a whirlwind he can also threaten my trukkz early on with ordinance. Also I can always avoid the mines or get some grotz to send through it.

#12
kanaellars

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Is your friend completely stuck on keeping the speeders and whirlwhind?

Here is a personal list that I use to play 1000 pts, and it seems to work well for me.

Its got lots of flame for massed orks and some serious punch for anti-tank as well.

1 WGBL
w/ Term Armor, Wolf Pelt, Thunder Hammer, and Heavy flamer.
4 WGBG
w/ Term Armor, Wolf Pelt, Chain Fist, and Storm Bolter

10 Grey Hunters
w/ 1 Power Fist, 1 Power Weapon, 10 Bolters

10 Blood Claws
w/ 1 Power Fist, 1 Power Weapon, 1 Flamer, 9 Bolt Pistols, and Krak Grenades.

5 Long Fangs
w/ 1 Power Weapon, 1 Bolter, and 4 Plasma Cannons.


Having a heavy Flamer, a Flamer, and 4 small template plasma cannons (VERY nice with the new rules vs. masses orks), is great, and for anti-tanks a Thunder Hammer, 4 Chain Fists, and 2 Power Fists does the job nicely.

Edited by kanaellars, 15 July 2008 - 02:22 PM.

For Russ! For the Wolftime! My wolves stand ready.

#13
Dark Bjoern

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@Lord Rags: You can´t replace the MM with a heavy flamer. The HF is not a standalone option. You can add him to a LST with MM.

By the way i tried out how the Tornado with HB/AC turned out with the 5th rules and i can say that it´s not that worse.

@Kaptin Jackboot: Your friend should replace the WGBL and the WG retinue. They are too point intensive for 1000 points. I would go for a ven dread and a predator for example. The Long Fangs are also too expensive. You will get two predator destuctor for them who will stay longer then the LF.

2016-06-19_08.56.28_zps3jxgevkj.jpg2016-06-19_08.55.04_zpsl7ia3v3f.jpg


#14
saphius

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I Usually don't go with a bodyguard at 1000pts. They are such a good unit but they invariably get overwhelemd, secifically by orcs.

I know how he can have a real chance to beat you, seems I recommend switching out one expensive thing for another. If he has the model, I'd go with a LR Crusader. Orcs have a hard time taking them out, other than power claws it rarley happens to me against my orc friend. I had a tourny list of 1000pts that used a LR crusader, Dread HQ, and Wolf Priest with bloodclaws in the LR, some grey hunters and scouts OBEL and a speeder that was very competative. (Actually won the toury). Now, this list isn't real fluffy but it packs a punch with surviveability. I would change some things if i knew I was facing orcs, but as you said, he has been playing IG as well, so those scouts would do well. (you can see the scout squad i run on the Scouts thread).

But as has been said, he will always have a hard time against orcs at 1000pts. It's a win for him if both people loose.

Edited by saphius, 15 July 2008 - 04:23 PM.


#15
Kaptin Jackboot

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@kanaellars: Sweet list. Thanks for the advice. One concern is that he needs to deal with armour in cc with this list. Walking marines towards leman russes and demolishers spell certain death in my book. With that low model count you can't really afford heavy losses.

@Dark Bjoern: Advice noted, thanks. The unit is good, often MVP, but one power klaw with some boyz support and it's a goner. I'll get him to drop the retinue.

@saphius: Don't matter if it's fluffy. This guy needs a win. I'll try to get him to try this list out (with a proxied LRC). Do you mind posting the list in detail? It would help a lot. Don't bother if you can't be bothered though.

#16
saphius

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Sure, I'll have it either later tonight or tommorrow.

#17
Kaan

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I agree with the comments that he needs to drop the multi meltas and just use plain jane heavy bolters. The Whirlwind is a nice touch. A terminator retinue at a 1000 points is a very expensive (and tasty) target. He needs more bolters/boots on the ground for shooting and counter charging. Dropping the retinue could get him a 10 man grey hunter squad or even (dare I say.....) a Long Fang pack armed with Heavy Bolters with a twin linked heavy bolter razorback.

Mmmmmmm Orks, the other green....errr...white meat!
Of course, what the heck do I know....I still use Rhinos...

#18
Ranek Icewalker

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I looked at his list and noticed a problem with it. His army does not seem like it has any actual close combat units, I would take out the multimelta wolf guard and maybe the wolf guard. I would add as many blood claws as I could giving is army more mobility, and maybe he could pick up some bikes to spearhead his assault adding in power fists and power weapons, I would be good if he go caught with his enemies too close for comfort, besides the best defence is a good ofence, and 15 blood claws with a power fist and power weapon with 52 regular attacks and 4 power weapon attacks, and 3 power fist attacks is bound to kill alot of orks. also put the wGBl in the hunter squad.
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#19
the jeske

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well its all meta game he just uses the wrong models . where are his scouts ? where is his drop pod dread with hvy flamer ? why does he use mm land speedersin the 4th AC tornados were better at anti tank right now in the 5th its better to stay away from them .
All that on top of a foot slogging army , with a 3ed dex , with units costing tons of pts [well ok , not tons but 18 pts per peep is a lot ] and playing sw under 1500 pts = a lot of loses . thats how it is . some armies at some pts just dont work [4ed eldar didnt work at 2k or more pts . nids didnt work under 1kpts ] , so either play more pts or change army .

"Felix wondered how Calgar might feel about the primach's unilateral altering of the Codex Astartes. The captain could not help but feel that, in his drive for victory and efficiency, Guilliman had been careless with the feelings of his existing sons. Increasingly, Guilliman looked to the Primaris Space Marines as his first solution. He made no attempt to hide the fact that the days of the older space marines were numbered."


#20
Kaptin Jackboot

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Thanks for your input, guys.

I shall try to come up with a new list, based on his models, that you can look into.


Wolf guard battle leader (leads one squad of grey hunters)
Terminator armour, power weapon, assault cannon

Wolf priest (leads blood claws)

4 Wolf scouts
Boltpistol & cc-weapons, 1 melta gun, melta mombs

8 Blood claws
1 Power fist

10 Grey Hunters
1 melta gun, 1 power fist

10 Grey Hunters
1 melta gun, 1 power fist

Land speeder
Heavy bolter

Land speeder
Heavy bolter

Whirlwind

What do you think? Still to footsloggish, but with the new run rule, can it work?

Cheers!

#21
Deneris

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Someone may have mentionned it before, but why not take a vindicator? The frontal armor should be enough to deal with most of what the Orks can dish out, and that ol'reliable pie plate of DOOM should leave some nice smoking holes in the ranks of the Boyz- ESPECIALLY with the removal of partials in 5th edition. With a good shot, he could take out half a mob per turn... Until you turn into a sneaky git and leave 2" between each boy on the field :evil:.

#22
Kaptin Jackboot

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Actually I almost always do the sneeky git thing when I face off against pie plates. And the short range of the vindicator means it's in rokkit range and probably trukkboy charge range too when he fires. But it might definately be worth considering!

#23
deedark

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New list should do better - footsloggish you want them to come to you

A Vindi might not be a bad idea either
Death smiles on those who do not know or understand the ways of the wolf

#24
Kaan

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The vindicator is overkill, you don't need the AP against Orks that a vindicator provides. A whirlwind will suffice (although the front armor is suspect if exposed). He won't need meltabombs on his scouts against Orks (I'm doubting your kans are held back, which would make his OBEL pointless). Even if he infiltrated them like normal scouts, the orks would jump them and make the bombs useless. Scouts = Good, Scouts with Meltabombs = 20 points wasted.

Do you have a comprehensive list of his models? I'd still love to see some heavy bolter Long Fangs with a twin linked heavy bolter razorback supporting them. Very Shooty, Very Killy.
Of course, what the heck do I know....I still use Rhinos...

#25
Wolf89

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You could always run 2 whirlwinds and utilize mines to control where the orks go... funnel tactic into a pack of grey hunters and some other shooty goodness, lest yee test your luck at the land o mines :pinch:

I face 3 kinds of orks by me, one is pure foot sloggers (with some kans and scorchas) the other has a lot of bikes and such (kinda speed freaky) and the 3rd uses a leman russ, battle wagon, and some more amorized as well as a huge nob squad with a boss (although I haven't faced him that recently he might have changed things with 5th edition)

most of the time I try to keep my list the same for all 3 as I want a competitive list for all races (to get lists ready for tournaments) so my scouts always have a melta gun, but melta bombs are usually a toss up, most of the time (as others have said) the kans and tanks are already half way across the board, I've also tried flamers and such and they work nicely.

in such small points being able to use multiple dreads and speeders (what my normal list consisted of) wouldn't be an option, but to make up for it, just max out on flamers where you can, and you can always give the scouts normal weapons and use them to outflank now which can be a nice touch too with a missile launcher or even max out snipers since they're now rending and ork vehicles are like paper air planes :down:
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