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Stormcaller gone, as we knew it.


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#1
Byrne

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Disclaimer: I have just read the 5th rulebook once, might have missed something somewhere.

I was conserned about cover before and now that I have read the rulebook it is clear that a unit in cover don´t get I10 anymore. Assulting unit get a I of 1 instead. The rules also tells you how the assulting unit have to test if they can reach the unit in cover/difficult terrain. Assult granedes let the assulting unit strike at their normal I.

Now what I see is this.
1 if we have a unit with stormcaller on it, the enemy must roll 2 d6 and see if they can assult,if they have granedes they will strike at their I as normal. if not we strike first.

2 we now have a "whole new" way to play it. Meaning that we dont lookin the rulebook for how units in cover is treated, insted we go with what is written. That we always strike first with stormcaller, ignoring the old thought of cover. that would ignore granades effect on this power. We would also be able to assult with this, but strike at the same time if the enemy also were in cover.

anyway, it´s different now....
Trough the storms of the warp they come, upon the very tides of terror, but of such dangers they are uncaring. They are the Space Wolves, the undefeated, the bane of the Emperor's foes.

#2
KeithGatchalian

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Disclaimer: I have just read the 5th rulebook once, might have missed something somewhere.

I was conserned about cover before and now that I have read the rulebook it is clear that a unit in cover don´t get I10 anymore. Assulting unit get a I of 1 instead. The rules also tells you how the assulting unit have to test if they can reach the unit in cover/difficult terrain. Assult granedes let the assulting unit strike at their normal I.

Now what I see is this.
1 if we have a unit with stormcaller on it, the enemy must roll 2 d6 and see if they can assult,if they have granedes they will strike at their I as normal. if not we strike first.

2 we now have a "whole new" way to play it. Meaning that we dont lookin the rulebook for how units in cover is treated, insted we go with what is written. That we always strike first with stormcaller, ignoring the old thought of cover. that would ignore granades effect on this power. We would also be able to assult with this, but strike at the same time if the enemy also were in cover.

anyway, it´s different now....


According to the rulebook (5th ed) if any model in an assaulting unit has to move through difficult or dangerous terrain, then it would have to take the test. Assaulting Wolves does not involve moving through difficult terrain, so no test is needed.

It also says that grenades are only used when assaulting.

We only strike first when assaulted, and if we assault then both sides go according to their initiative scores. We do not go first if we charge.

#3
Byrne

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Disclaimer: I have just read the 5th rulebook once, might have missed something somewhere.

I was conserned about cover before and now that I have read the rulebook it is clear that a unit in cover don´t get I10 anymore. Assulting unit get a I of 1 instead. The rules also tells you how the assulting unit have to test if they can reach the unit in cover/difficult terrain. Assult granedes let the assulting unit strike at their normal I.

Now what I see is this.
1 if we have a unit with stormcaller on it, the enemy must roll 2 d6 and see if they can assult,if they have granedes they will strike at their I as normal. if not we strike first.

2 we now have a "whole new" way to play it. Meaning that we dont lookin the rulebook for how units in cover is treated, insted we go with what is written. That we always strike first with stormcaller, ignoring the old thought of cover. that would ignore granades effect on this power. We would also be able to assult with this, but strike at the same time if the enemy also were in cover.

anyway, it´s different now....


According to the rulebook (5th ed) if any model in an assaulting unit has to move through difficult or dangerous terrain, then it would have to take the test. Assaulting Wolves does not involve moving through difficult terrain, so no test is needed.

It also says that grenades are only used when assaulting.

We only strike first when assaulted, and if we assault then both sides go according to their initiative scores. We do not go first if we charge.



Yes, thats what I am saying. And as almost all new troops come with assultgrandes, our Stormcaller dosent work anymore. The new "assult through cover" has changed the way our stormcaller work. It feels like it is obselete, since all we will be doing is strike at the same time as our enemy.
Trough the storms of the warp they come, upon the very tides of terror, but of such dangers they are uncaring. They are the Space Wolves, the undefeated, the bane of the Emperor's foes.

#4
AdrianG

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Having just checked both of the latest FAQ's for Space Wolves, there is no mention of alteration to the Storm Caller power.
Therefore, you would have to assume that Chapter Specific Codex rules take precedence.

So, in plain English: If it's not been FAQ'd then it hasn't changed.

IMHO
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#5
Nightrunner

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It feels like it is obselete, since all we will be doing is strike at the same time as our enemy.


I think that this really comes down to how you plan to use Stormcaller, to be honest? It certainly isn't obsolete, but has definitely gone from an offensive to a defensive power. Think about these options if you will:

1) It gives you a 5+ cover save where otherwise (I would assume) you wouldn't have had one. Go to ground, you are on a 4+ cover save in the open. Again, pretty nifty, e.g. a drop-podding squad of GH (who can now actually have the RP attached to them!!!!!!!!! Hurrah, GW!!!!!!!!!!) who can kick out their shooty death, cast Stormcaller, go to ground if needed and be ready to counter-attack an assault.

2) It can still be cast on vehicles, meaning you can help to screen models such as running dreadnoughts without wasting your smoke launchers.

Thats a couple of ways I've been using it. They aren't mind-blowing, but maybe that helped you look at Stormcaller a little differently?

NR :)

Edited by Nightrunner, 17 July 2008 - 08:36 PM.

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#6
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This is another example of people only seeing the negative side of things. Don't you dare see the positive, otherwise, you might have less of a reason to complain.

Stormcaller is still good.
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The concept of five Orks not being immolated by a massive version of a lascannon because there were Grots between them and the Chapter Master makes...hang on, let me count on my fingers...yeah, no sense. It gets no cover, nothing but a lot of charred Ork flesh.
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#7
KeithGatchalian

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Disclaimer: I have just read the 5th rulebook once, might have missed something somewhere.

I was conserned about cover before and now that I have read the rulebook it is clear that a unit in cover don´t get I10 anymore. Assulting unit get a I of 1 instead. The rules also tells you how the assulting unit have to test if they can reach the unit in cover/difficult terrain. Assult granedes let the assulting unit strike at their normal I.

Now what I see is this.
1 if we have a unit with stormcaller on it, the enemy must roll 2 d6 and see if they can assult,if they have granedes they will strike at their I as normal. if not we strike first.

2 we now have a "whole new" way to play it. Meaning that we dont lookin the rulebook for how units in cover is treated, insted we go with what is written. That we always strike first with stormcaller, ignoring the old thought of cover. that would ignore granades effect on this power. We would also be able to assult with this, but strike at the same time if the enemy also were in cover.

anyway, it´s different now....


According to the rulebook (5th ed) if any model in an assaulting unit has to move through difficult or dangerous terrain, then it would have to take the test. Assaulting Wolves does not involve moving through difficult terrain, so no test is needed.

It also says that grenades are only used when assaulting.

We only strike first when assaulted, and if we assault then both sides go according to their initiative scores. We do not go first if we charge.



Yes, thats what I am saying. And as almost all new troops come with assultgrandes, our Stormcaller dosent work anymore. The new "assult through cover" has changed the way our stormcaller work. It feels like it is obselete, since all we will be doing is strike at the same time as our enemy.


Nothing has changed per se....alot of troops still don't have frag grenades.

#8
OnlyInDeath

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Also something to keep in mind: if you are assaulted by troops that dont have frag grenades, they strike at I 1....meaning at the same time as your powerfists! that definately gives you a bonus for your fist armed dudes.

As stated above, casting this on vehicles is also mighty nices, as a vehicle in cover will recieve a cover save that can IGNORE a glancing or penetrating hit (think of it as an improved old school ork armorplate).

However, a negative about going to ground (i think, i've only been thru the 5th ed rules a couple times myself) with this power. If you go to ground and are charged, you dont get the initiative advantage so everyone will strike in order of initiative. You should be able to countercharge tho....
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#9
KeithGatchalian

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It feels like it is obselete, since all we will be doing is strike at the same time as our enemy.


I think that this really comes down to how you plan to use Stormcaller, to be honest? It certainly isn't obsolete, but has definitely gone from an offensive to a defensive power. Think about these options if you will:

1) It gives you a 5+ cover save where otherwise (I would assume) you wouldn't have had one. Go to ground, you are on a 4+ cover save in the open. Again, pretty nifty, e.g. a drop-podding squad of GH (who can now actually have the RP attached to them!!!!!!!!! Hurrah, GW!!!!!!!!!!) who can kick out their shooty death, cast Stormcaller, go to ground if needed and be ready to counter-attack an assault.

2) It can still be cast on vehicles, meaning you can help to screen models such as running dreadnoughts without wasting your smoke launchers.

Thats a couple of ways I've been using it. They aren't mind-blowing, but maybe that helped you look at Stormcaller a little differently?

NR :)


It's never been an offensive power....

#10
Marek Grimfang

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It's never been an offensive power....


All I can say is that I hope we get new Powers come the new 'Dex. Something with range and killability.

Stormcaller is only one tool on our belt. Put all the tools together is how it works.
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#11
Quillen

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It was indeed an offencesive power. As it allowed you to attack before enemies int he open. In effect you carried your cover with you. It gave you a 5+ cover save and let you strike first when assaulting someone in the open. So it was awesome in the charge.

I do not see hwo this has changed thou. I will put the rule her.


......This unit counts as being in cover for the rules purposes, and will STRIKE FIRST in close combat until the end of the enemies following turn. Units that are protected in the way MAY ASSUALT, and if they do and the enemy is in cover they attack in order of initiative.

SO nothing has changed really. I cast it on my Blood Claws and they charge a unit in the open they will strike first, usually killing the noob in the open. If the enemy are in cover we go by Intiative. Nothing changed.

If I am in the open they need grenades to keep me from going first. Even then it go to Intiative order so no real biggy.

The FAQ points out that using this and assult an enemy in the open works this way even if they have grenades cause grenades are not a Defencesive item. Now Tau Might have Defencesive grenades but they do not work the same way having different mechanics.
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#12
Lord Ragnarok

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Quillen, which FAQ? The 5th FAQ does not address this.
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#13
Wolf89

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He's talking about the 4th edition FAQ's.

I'm not one to usually spend points on a rune priest unless it's in 13th company, the only reason I'd use him now is for extra protection for vehicles :whistling:
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#14
KeithGatchalian

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Actually, in the first SW FAQ it stated that you did not go first when assaulting. Then they changed some lines in a later printing of the codex ( which I finally found) that stated you only went first if charged, and if you assaulted someone in cover, combat was done in initiative order.

The lines in the second FAQ, as a consequence to the change in the codex, while it implied you went first, did not explicitly say so so you had to still go by what the codex said. Remember, GW rules are permissive rules. If they intended you to go first, there would have been a line saying so.

Edited by KeithGatchalian, 18 July 2008 - 07:48 AM.


#15
Wolf89

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In the 1st printing SW codex there's a line in Storm Caller: " This unit counts as being in cover for rules purposes and so will receive a 5+ cover save and will strike first in close combat until the end of the following enemy turn."

so there is a line in there that says they go first :)

frag grenades only work if the unit that has them assaults, not when they get assaulted, I might not be fully understanding the issue here, but if someone clarifies I'll be more than happy to look into it more, but as of my codex and the 5th edition rules, I see no problem in casting Storm Caller on a pack of blood claws, charging into a unit that isn't in cover and go first in combat, if they're in cover then I have frag grenades (storm caller has me in cover anyways so no big deal) then we go at normal I
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#16
KeithGatchalian

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In the 1st printing SW codex there's a line in Storm Caller: " This unit counts as being in cover for rules purposes and so will receive a 5+ cover save and will strike first in close combat until the end of the following enemy turn."

so there is a line in there that says they go first :)

frag grenades only work if the unit that has them assaults, not when they get assaulted, I might not be fully understanding the issue here, but if someone clarifies I'll be more than happy to look into it more, but as of my codex and the 5th edition rules, I see no problem in casting Storm Caller on a pack of blood claws, charging into a unit that isn't in cover and go first in combat, if they're in cover then I have frag grenades (storm caller has me in cover anyways so no big deal) then we go at normal I


And in the first FAQ they changed that, and in the last printing, changed the line to say goes first if charged. So anyone going first with Stormcaller was misplaying it.

#17
Byrne

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Having just checked both of the latest FAQ's for Space Wolves, there is no mention of alteration to the Storm Caller power.
Therefore, you would have to assume that Chapter Specific Codex rules take precedence.

So, in plain English: If it's not been FAQ'd then it hasn't changed.

IMHO



The way the power works have not changed, but the rules for cover has... So in effect our stormcaller have changed.
Trough the storms of the warp they come, upon the very tides of terror, but of such dangers they are uncaring. They are the Space Wolves, the undefeated, the bane of the Emperor's foes.

#18
Wolf89

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In the 1st printing SW codex there's a line in Storm Caller: " This unit counts as being in cover for rules purposes and so will receive a 5+ cover save and will strike first in close combat until the end of the following enemy turn."

so there is a line in there that says they go first :)

frag grenades only work if the unit that has them assaults, not when they get assaulted, I might not be fully understanding the issue here, but if someone clarifies I'll be more than happy to look into it more, but as of my codex and the 5th edition rules, I see no problem in casting Storm Caller on a pack of blood claws, charging into a unit that isn't in cover and go first in combat, if they're in cover then I have frag grenades (storm caller has me in cover anyways so no big deal) then we go at normal I


And in the first FAQ they changed that, and in the last printing, changed the line to say goes first if charged. So anyone going first with Stormcaller was misplaying it.


You don't continuously stack FAQ's my dear friend Keith, instead the old FAQ's are forgotten and the new FAQ's take place of the old, since nothing is written in the new FAQ, we use our SW codex for all rule purposes of the spell, and make reference to the 5th edition rule book.
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#19
Byrne

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In the 1st printing SW codex there's a line in Storm Caller: " This unit counts as being in cover for rules purposes and so will receive a 5+ cover save and will strike first in close combat until the end of the following enemy turn."

so there is a line in there that says they go first :)

frag grenades only work if the unit that has them assaults, not when they get assaulted, I might not be fully understanding the issue here, but if someone clarifies I'll be more than happy to look into it more, but as of my codex and the 5th edition rules, I see no problem in casting Storm Caller on a pack of blood claws, charging into a unit that isn't in cover and go first in combat, if they're in cover then I have frag grenades (storm caller has me in cover anyways so no big deal) then we go at normal I


And in the first FAQ they changed that, and in the last printing, changed the line to say goes first if charged. So anyone going first with Stormcaller was misplaying it.



The last faq had it in there as well, it said that if you recived an assult by a unit with SC, your frag granades would not help, they only helped if you self were assulting. meaning that you could assult with stormcaller. GW has not said anything of a "updated" form of our old codex, non of my two codex has anything that say you cant assult with stormcaller.
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#20
saphius

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Look at the most recent FAQ..... Nothing there? Use it exactly as it says in your codex. Seems this is the way it should be. And if GW thinks it needs to be changed, they would change it in an FAQ. It was in old FAQ's, and isn't now. It didn't get overlooked, IMO. They just changed it back to whatever your codex says.

#21
Byrne

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One could say that our spell is a new one.

first it give us a 5+ coversave, both for troops and vehicles.
next, it give us the ability to strike first until the end of our enemies turn. (since cover no longer gives this.)

we can recive an assult and we can give an assult, and always strike first while we have SC cast on us.
if we assult an enemy in cover, we roll for disance and strike at the same time as the enemy.


The hard part with new rules is to forget all that we know, and try to see everything with new eyes.
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#22
KeithGatchalian

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Look at the most recent FAQ..... Nothing there? Use it exactly as it says in your codex. Seems this is the way it should be. And if GW thinks it needs to be changed, they would change it in an FAQ. It was in old FAQ's, and isn't now. It didn't get overlooked, IMO. They just changed it back to whatever your codex says.


Yes, and you always use the rules in the latest printing of the book, which says you go first when assaulted.

#23
Byrne

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Look at the most recent FAQ..... Nothing there? Use it exactly as it says in your codex. Seems this is the way it should be. And if GW thinks it needs to be changed, they would change it in an FAQ. It was in old FAQ's, and isn't now. It didn't get overlooked, IMO. They just changed it back to whatever your codex says.


Yes, and you always use the rules in the latest printing of the book, which says you go first when assaulted.



Last print? where do you find this?? you can´t it is no more, sounds like a myth to me :) we are stuck with what we have... mine say nothing like that. so I guess "I" can assult and strike first while you can not? The faq say nothing about: ...and for your guys who have a wierd copy, this is what rules...

btw, do you have something else in your copy that we don´t have? meltabombs on BC bikers? (used to be in an old faq)

Edited by Byrne, 18 July 2008 - 04:46 PM.

Trough the storms of the warp they come, upon the very tides of terror, but of such dangers they are uncaring. They are the Space Wolves, the undefeated, the bane of the Emperor's foes.

#24
KeithGatchalian

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Look at the most recent FAQ..... Nothing there? Use it exactly as it says in your codex. Seems this is the way it should be. And if GW thinks it needs to be changed, they would change it in an FAQ. It was in old FAQ's, and isn't now. It didn't get overlooked, IMO. They just changed it back to whatever your codex says.


Yes, and you always use the rules in the latest printing of the book, which says you go first when assaulted.



Last print? where do you find this?? you can´t it is no more, sounds like a myth to me :) we are stuck with what we have... mine say nothing like that. so I guess "I" can assult and strike first while you can not? The faq say nothing about: ...and for your guys who have a wierd copy, this is what rules...

btw, do you have something else in your copy that we don´t have? meltabombs on BC bikers? (used to be in an old faq)



I'll be happy to copy/pdf the page and send it. As I stated before when I talked about the old FAQ's, the reason they took out the line about not going first when assaulting is because they changed the printing of the codex. There was no need to FAQ it anymore.

It would be unethical to bring a book that says you can assault when you know they changed the rule in later printings.

In the 1st printing SW codex there's a line in Storm Caller: " This unit counts as being in cover for rules purposes and so will receive a 5+ cover save and will strike first in close combat until the end of the following enemy turn."

so there is a line in there that says they go first -_-

frag grenades only work if the unit that has them assaults, not when they get assaulted, I might not be fully understanding the issue here, but if someone clarifies I'll be more than happy to look into it more, but as of my codex and the 5th edition rules, I see no problem in casting Storm Caller on a pack of blood claws, charging into a unit that isn't in cover and go first in combat, if they're in cover then I have frag grenades (storm caller has me in cover anyways so no big deal) then we go at normal I


And in the first FAQ they changed that, and in the last printing, changed the line to say goes first if charged. So anyone going first with Stormcaller was misplaying it.


You don't continuously stack FAQ's my dear friend Keith, instead the old FAQ's are forgotten and the new FAQ's take place of the old, since nothing is written in the new FAQ, we use our SW codex for all rule purposes of the spell, and make reference to the 5th edition rule book.


My purpose for the post was to illustrate that the intent of the power was never to allow Wolves to go first.

#25
saphius

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I agree with using the latest printing,while I don't own it, just do what it says. I was just saying with the new cover rules, ect. Use the rule like it says untell told otherwise. That's my standpoint.