97 replies to this topic

[Wolf89]

As long as this situation still stands (I cast SC on a unit, they assault another unit (that is not in cover) I go first for the next 2 turns) then I'm cool with it, if this isn't the case I need to know why because from my documents, I find nothing against it.

[saphius]

My only comment would be get the most recent codex. I think there is a thread around here about getting it in a PDF? Other than that I have no direction for you.

[Wolf89]

To my knowledge I have the most recent codex (both in German and English) and I'm pretty sure if anything the CA GW would send me the pdf, but I'll doubt it'll be any different, I'll contact them though.

[Gunstar]

Excellent thread- and one that has my attention as i have just started using my rune priest a lot more due to my friends use of no less than 2 Bloodthirsters in his Daemon list!! With Stormcaller on and a Rune Weapon i can kick his ass most of the time.

But the problem here is easily rectified-

Quite simply the codex and Faq 4.1 state that you can assault while under SC and will strike first unless your enemy is in cover. Therefore with the new 5th ed Faq, you can still assault under SC, as it would revert to the codex where the wording seems perfectly clear to me- and last time i looked i had two degrees and a whole bunch of "A" levels- including English! ....alas still no damn Phd, but watch this space! lol

How much more black and white do you need it to be?

There would really be no point in having SC if you couldn't do this.

Happy Days- i love SC- Top Tip- put Chooser Of The Slain on your rune priest and give him a Storm Shield for the +4 inv (and if rumour serves it could be a +3 inv in the new SM codex!)

[Bjorn the Fell-Handed]

Guys,

Stormcaller stays as it is. It might not be in line with the current ruleset as it was meant to be, but then again, our entire codex is several editions behind everyone else and their mother. Im still going to use it the way that it says in my codex it works, because the FAQ's do not say that we must use it a certain way. Therefore I don't see where the discussion is, or where the problem is.

Sure it may jar somewhat with the new rulesset. So what? It'll just bring the attetion of GW to give us the long awaited Codex update that we too rightly deserve.

Bjorn

[AdrianG]

Glad I'm not the only one who sees the truth of the matter

Use Storm Caller on your Wolf Brothers as before, and smite the enemies of Russ and the Allfather

[Bjorn the Fell-Handed]

I mean, its just common sense. If you have a 3rd edition ability that hasnt been adressed in a FAQ (Thank you GW ) then by logic it stands. And anyone that thinks doesnt, well, needs a drink or two to see sense

Edited by Bjorn the Fell-Handed, 18 July 2008 - 09:29 PM.

[KeithGatchalian]

I think the issue here is that some of the people here are playing the power incorrectly. So let's clarify...

The current FAQ says use the power as in the codex.

The latest printing of the codex states you only go first when assaulted, and when assaulting into cover, go by init. It does not say you go first when assaulting.

You play by the latest set of rules.


Hope that helps

[Bjorn the Fell-Handed]

I think the issue here is that some of the people here are playing the power incorrectly. So let's clarify...

The current FAQ says use the power as in the codex.

The latest printing of the codex states you only go first when assaulted, and when assaulting into cover, go by init. It does not say you go first when assaulting.

You play by the latest set of rules.


Hope that helps

I think that its not a case of using the power incorretly, its more a case of Rules as interpreted than as Rules as Written.

It says that "Units that are protected this way may assault" and that they "count as being in cover for rules purposes."
Now, I can assault out of cover anyway, I just need to do a difficult terrain test. But, it is assumed that since you can assault while Stormcaller is in effect, you treat it as if the enemy had assaulted, except they do not get charge bonuses and Frag grenades do not have any effects. I mean, the latest FAQ has not addressed this, and if lot of players had been using it incorrectly, it would have been on GW's radar.

Therefore, we can assume that the Stormcaller power is as it is used by the majority of players, and that its not a case of misinterpreted rules.

EDIT- Ok Ive looked at the 4th edition FAQ, the last one to address this issue. It states "if the uinit with Storm caller on it charges a unit with Frag/Plasma grenades, they will strike first"

Bjorn

Edited by Bjorn the Fell-Handed, 18 July 2008 - 10:00 PM.

[KeithGatchalian]

I think the issue here is that some of the people here are playing the power incorrectly. So let's clarify...

The current FAQ says use the power as in the codex.

The latest printing of the codex states you only go first when assaulted, and when assaulting into cover, go by init. It does not say you go first when assaulting.

You play by the latest set of rules.


Hope that helps

I think that its not a case of using the power incorretly, its more a case of Rules as interpreted than as Rules as Written.

It says that "Units that are protected this way may assault" and that they "count as being in cover for rules purposes."
Now, I can assault out of cover anyway, I just need to do a difficult terrain test. But, it is assumed that since you can assault while Stormcaller is in effect, you treat it as if the enemy had assaulted, except they do not get charge bonuses and Frag grenades do not have any effects. I mean, the latest FAQ has not addressed this, and if lot of players had been using it incorrectly, it would have been on GW's radar.

Therefore, we can assume that the Stormcaller power is as it is used by the majority of players, and that its not a case of misinterpreted rules.

EDIT- Ok Ive looked at the 4th edition FAQ, the last one to address this issue. It states "if the uinit with Storm caller on it charges a unit with Frag/Plasma grenades, they will strike first"

Bjorn

You are making an inference here, with no actual text supporting you. As I stated before, GW rules are permissive rules. They tell you exactly how things work. If the game designers, after 2 FAQ's, and 3 printings of the codex wanted players to be able to assault first, they would have put the line in the rules. Instead, they put it in one FAQ, and then altered the lines in the last printing of the codex.

The previous FAQ had the lines about grenades in there because an arguement was made that the wolves were in cover, and when they assaulted, units with grenades would strike at the same time. Nowhere is there a line saying you treat the enemy as if THEY had assaulted.

Remember, just because alot of people do something wrong, it doesn't make it right.

[maniclurker]

Holy crapstorm, batman. This is ridiculous how hard people will try to push cheezy interpretations of rules through.

Edited by maniclurker, 19 July 2008 - 05:14 AM.

[alok_horgrim]

ok i gotta go with the brothers saying that we revert to the wording in the codex about SC ....... but (although i don't know if mine is the newer edition of it) i says and i quote: "this unit counts as being in cover for rules purposes and so will receive a 5+ cover save and will strike first in close combat until the end of the following enemy turn." So reading that, but like i said i don't know if i have the newer edition or not, if your unit has SC cast on it and you assault, unless the enemy is in cover also, you attack first.

my codex was printed in 2000 for those of you wondering

Edited by alok_horgrim, 19 July 2008 - 07:23 AM.

[Bjorn the Fell-Handed]

You are making an inference here, with no actual text supporting you. As I stated before, GW rules are permissive rules. They tell you exactly how things work. If the game designers, after 2 FAQ's, and 3 printings of the codex wanted players to be able to assault first, they would have put the line in the rules. Instead, they put it in one FAQ, and then altered the lines in the last printing of the codex.

The previous FAQ had the lines about grenades in there because an arguement was made that the wolves were in cover, and when they assaulted, units with grenades would strike at the same time. Nowhere is there a line saying you treat the enemy as if THEY had assaulted.

Remember, just because alot of people do something wrong, it doesn't make it right.

The line about the granades is very pertinent for this discussion, because if Frags/Plasma grenades do not allow simultaneous attacks (and since they would be the only wargear that would allow simultaneous attacks) we therefore can assume that in any circumstance, (save opponents in cover) that the Wolves strike first.This si supported by the newest codex printing that Alok has brought up where it says "this unit counts as being in cover for rules purposes and so will receive a 5+ cover save and will strike first in close combat until the end of the following enemy turn."
If you wish to get this clarified for the Wolves, then by all means contact GW and lets sort this out properly.

Bjorn

[Byrne]

@Keith, (or anyone else, if you have another copy) Would you be nice and quote the text regarding SC, as you say you have a later print am qurious about that text. I don´t think gw mind, since they dont sell the codex anymore and surly they want us to know, right?

Mine has the same line as pointed out earlier, reading that you can strike first.

[Gunstar]

This thread is getting silly now...

Its plain english guys.

"this unit counts as being in cover for rules purposes and so will receive a 5+ cover save and will strike first in close combat until the end of the following enemy turn".

"Units that are protected this way MAY ASSAULT" ... and they "count as being in cover for rules purposes".

If thats not plain and simple i think your playing the wrong game. (not directed at any one in particular!)

[Wolf89]

I think the issue here is that some of the people here are playing the power incorrectly. So let's clarify...

The current FAQ says use the power as in the codex.

The latest printing of the codex states you only go first when assaulted, and when assaulting into cover, go by init. It does not say you go first when assaulting.

You play by the latest set of rules.


Hope that helps

The current FAQ says NOTHING about Storm Caller, so I'm using the power from my codex which states go first when you assault into a squad not in cover. Clear as day, the FAQ says nothing about it, so there's no arguments there.

If your codex says otherwise contact CA GW as the pdf they'll give you says what I'm stating above, so It'll help greatly (also note this codex states true grit only works with bolters not combi-bolters so you may want to hold on to the other dex as well for true grit purposes )

[KeithGatchalian]

I think the issue here is that some of the people here are playing the power incorrectly. So let's clarify...

The current FAQ says use the power as in the codex.

The latest printing of the codex states you only go first when assaulted, and when assaulting into cover, go by init. It does not say you go first when assaulting.

You play by the latest set of rules.


Hope that helps

The current FAQ says NOTHING about Storm Caller, so I'm using the power from my codex which states go first when you assault into a squad not in cover. Clear as day, the FAQ says nothing about it, so there's no arguments there.

If your codex says otherwise contact CA GW as the pdf they'll give you says what I'm stating above, so It'll help greatly (also note this codex states true grit only works with bolters not combi-bolters so you may want to hold on to the other dex as well for true grit purposes )

Right. The issue is, which everyone is ignoring, is that in the most up to date codex, the current codex, the rules which supersede all the other rules, it clearly states the conditions in which you use Stormcaller, including that you only go first when assaulted. It does not say you go first when assaulting, therefore, you do not.

Is this really that hard to understand?

[KeithGatchalian]

@Keith, (or anyone else, if you have another copy) Would you be nice and quote the text regarding SC, as you say you have a later print am qurious about that text. I don´t think gw mind, since they dont sell the codex anymore and surly they want us to know, right?

Mine has the same line as pointed out earlier, reading that you can strike first.

"This unit counts as being in cover, for rules purposes, and so will receive a 5+ cover save and will strike first in the first round of close combat if they are charged. Units that are protected in this way may assault and, if they do so and the enemy are also in cover, attacks are resolved simultaneously."

[Gunstar]

@Keith, (or anyone else, if you have another copy) Would you be nice and quote the text regarding SC, as you say you have a later print am qurious about that text. I don´t think gw mind, since they dont sell the codex anymore and surly they want us to know, right?

Mine has the same line as pointed out earlier, reading that you can strike first.

"This unit counts as being in cover, for rules purposes, and so will receive a 5+ cover save and will strike first in the first round of close combat if they are charged. Units that are protected in this way may assault and, if they do so and the enemy are also in cover, attacks are resolved simultaneously."

Keith mate, i'm sorry dude but i think your wrong- and its not down to interpretation either. Look at the wording- "Units that are protected in this way may assault, and if they do so and the enemy are also in cover then they attack simultaneously." ie: what if the enemy are not in cover??? Then you go first like it says just before- "and will strike first in close combat until the end of the following enemy turn."

For me this is very simply worded. There wouldn't be much point to SC otherwise, just find some cover and spend your points elsewhere!

From the previous Faq- "If a unit with stormcaller on it charges an opponent with either grenade type, they [SC unit] will strike first as these grenades are of no use when recieving a charge." Just to further add to the point that GW have always intended SC to be used in the offensive assault.

MAY ASSAULT, MAY ASSAULT, MAY ASSAULT!!

[Wolf89]

Right. The issue is, which everyone is ignoring, is that in the most up to date codex, the current codex, the rules which supersede all the other rules, it clearly states the conditions in which you use Stormcaller, including that you only go first when assaulted. It does not say you go first when assaulting, therefore, you do not.

Is this really that hard to understand?

Keith, what I'm trying to say is the codex you have is the older version, and the one me, and gunstar and a few others have is the most current which clearly states you go first in combat for the first two turns when you assault a unit not in cover.

So the answer is clear, either buy the newer SW codex, and/or get the pdf off the CA GW website, either way you'll see what we're saying, and it'll be all clear.

I just bought the German SW codex not to long ago and it's the same way, so to me, that says it's the most recent codex and I'll be using it.

As for this topic concerns assaulting in conjunction with Storm Caller, the only thing I see changing is when other units try to assault one of our units with Storm Caller on them they'd have to take a test, other than that, not much has changed.

[Dark Bjoern]

I have to agree with Wolf89. That´s how it works. If you attack an enemy who´s not in cover and you have Stormcaller active you will stirke first. That´s how it is, as i found, very clearly written in the ´dex and how i had played it the last eight years.

[KeithGatchalian]

Keith mate, i'm sorry dude but i think your wrong- and its not down to interpretation either. Look at the wording- "Units that are protected in this way may assault, and if they do so and the enemy are also in cover then they attack simultaneously." ie: what if the enemy are not in cover??? Then you go first like it says just before- "and will strike first in close combat until the end of the following enemy turn."

For me this is very simply worded. There wouldn't be much point to SC otherwise, just find some cover and spend your points elsewhere!

From the previous Faq- "If a unit with stormcaller on it charges an opponent with either grenade type, they [SC unit] will strike first as these grenades are of no use when recieving a charge." Just to further add to the point that GW have always intended SC to be used in the offensive assault.

MAY ASSAULT, MAY ASSAULT, MAY ASSAULT!!
[/quote]

I fail to see how I am wrong. Again, everyone is ignoring two major points here. GW writes permissive rules sets. They tell you exactly how the rules work and what you can do. And you do not make an inference from the rules. The rules say I can measure range to an opponent and then proceed to shoot at him...does that mean I can pull out a real gun and shoot? Of course not, but you can infer that from the rules as being legal to do.

The previous FAQ again is interpetative, and I've already explained why it does not apply, aside from the fact that it is gone. If you want to use past FAQ's, check out the original one that clearly said you do not go first when assaulting.

[Wolf89]

I have contacted GW, and Hopefully will recieve the pdf file to straighten this out, I mean I bought my most recent codex about 4-5 months ago, I'd hope it's not the older version and screws me over.

Otherwise let's refrain from stating our own codex rules for Storm Caller as both have been stated, and instead work to see which is the more recent, and therefore the one to be used codex. From there, the answer is clear.

[alok_horgrim]

keith, question for you. what year is your codex from? if you don't know where to find this, either look on the back cover under the GW logo or you can look on the first page under table of contents. if it's before 2000 you are wrong. if it is after 2000 we're wrong. simple as that.

[Lord Ragnarok]

I have to agree with Wolf89. That´s how it works. If you attack an enemy who´s not in cover and you have Stormcaller active you will stirke first. That´s how it is, as i found, very clearly written in the ´dex and how i had played it the last eight years.

Unless you are using 2nd printing. I think we have a mixed bag of folks who have different printings. My understanding of the history is this.

1. Original printing said we strike first v/s enemy in no cover.
2. 2nd Printing did not mention at all
3. 4th FAQ implied we could strike first v/s enemy not in cover.
4. 5th FAQ does not address so goes back to your codex (whatever printing)

For me, my RP does not like dice. He has worst luck than orks on rolls. I don't use him any longer.

Edited by Lord Ragnarok, 21 July 2008 - 01:33 AM.