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Should we be banned?(warning hot topic)


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38 replies to this topic

#1
Byrne

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Hi good people,
I would like to ask you, what I was asked today. Should we be stopped till next codex has arrived?

I want to start with saying that we have a very good tournement manager. He has no grudge towards us or anything, his point is valid. ( at least with me since our codex was written two rulesets ago. I do not want this to become a hatefest, just your thought on our codex, pro and cons... and how it "might" interact with the next SM codex.

I know there are people who think that our obel and our wgbl being able to carry HW is hard for some. and not to mention our runic charms and fenrisian wolves.... oh, and our venerable dreadnought.

Me myself, I think we pay a lot for our troops, we are expensive, we are elite. but I am afraid some people cant stand us.

I hope to see some constructive thoughts about our present codex and our place in 40k. I hate going to a torney, feeling that I am breaking some unseen law, I am a Space wolf, alwys been... but it´s no fun to play if we are being viewed as chees, just beause we are son´s of Russ.

I would accept a "no" as in no more SW in this tournement because our codex was written during 3rd ed, only if others are treated the same. (DE)

I hope some of you can help me out, showing where gw went wrong, having our codex getting this old.. ( for some valid points to my organiser)

/discuss

Edited by Byrne, 07 August 2008 - 04:31 PM.

Trough the storms of the warp they come, upon the very tides of terror, but of such dangers they are uncaring. They are the Space Wolves, the undefeated, the bane of the Emperor's foes.

#2
Wolf89

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I'm not sure why your organizer would say anything along the lines of SW being able to be in a 5th edition tournament, they're an allowed codex in the RTT's and GT's of 2008.

Furthermore, if someone says cheese I'd be quite angry, you don't see SW's making it to finals and you don't see them blowing anyone out of the water. As you said, we're expensive, we pay for our "cheese" if you will, and I don't see any of it as being unbalanced, some people might say that just because you beat them with the list they thought was cheesy and should have won. :down:

Yes we can give a heavy weapon to a WGBL, but it'll be 100+ points, and he's an HQ, something we HAVE to have 1 for every 750 points, taking away from our core army, it's a buff to a drawback if you ask me and nothing overpowered, let him use a heavy weapon and not being able to charge where he's most deadly.

OBEL scouts take up an elite choice, they can't capture objectives, and can be expensive, if we want normal scouts, they're elites too. Not to mention Outflanking almost gives OBEL to vanilla marines at a more effective strategic standpoint. :P

The venerable dreadnought is expensive and a way to help with our mandatory HQ, the next SM codex will bring upgraded Ven. dreads for all anyways. :D

Overpowered? No. Misunderstood? Yes.

There's really nothing to discuss, there's MULTIPLE topics about our codex being out of date, and how it'll be used with the upcoming SM codex. So please use the search function and try your best to find a topic. ^_^

- On a side note, I've ran RTT's and other events and I can't believe that your organizer would even consider the space wolves as being broken.
-Before you post a question you have about space wolves check here first then check here second-


#3
Byrne

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Thank you for your input wolf89, I would like to see what others think, I Will take the good pointers that I can collect with me...
Trough the storms of the warp they come, upon the very tides of terror, but of such dangers they are uncaring. They are the Space Wolves, the undefeated, the bane of the Emperor's foes.

#4
VonMerrick

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I for one feel it is not our fault that the codex is old. It is still valid as each and every player pays the points cost for the special abilities they have. I have noticed that a lot of people who used to complain about my wolves never really read the codex and just was upset that we didn't act the same as every other chapter of marines. Thats like your organizer saying that the "Dark eldar codex is too old, so no dark eldar players". That wouldn't be fair to one who has put a lot of time and effort into an active army and enjoys going against the grain and picking the army of the month. It is still an active and supported army list from Games Workshop and you shouldn't have tournaments were active armies are excluded simply because they conflict a little with a new codex. So all varient marine chapters are going to banned by an organizer because they don't fit with vanilla marines? I can't stand stuff like that when as an older gamer, I've stood back and watched army lists shrink ( the craftworlds, the chaos legions) and we curse GW for limiting our wargear and options, but in this case we'll self inflict 40k blandness by exiling an army for being unique. Far be it to have our opponents actually having to think to win because we're different. There also is no set in stone promise that the codex is coming immediately, so it could be a while still.

Why should an active army that they are still sculpting minis for (gamesday anyone?) be excluded because a few people don't like playing them?

By that reckoning my friends who play different marine armies should ban Chaos from our tournaments cause its cheesy, overpowered, and blah, blah blah.

Oh, I'm banning necrons too cause I don't like naked anorexic models. All that skeletal structure showing might warp the children. :-)

Edited by VonMerrick, 07 August 2008 - 05:38 PM.


#5
MaveriK

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Unfortunately independent organizers have the right to do what they want in their tournaments, even if their decision may come off as being almost uneducated bias, racist to an extent and especially ignorant towards those who are stuck with outdated armies. If Games Workshop wanted certain armies to be banned at local tournaments they would state it officially. You can argue your side, but its hard to argue with someone who already made up their mind on something, it would be a valiant effort but it could also be just a waste of your time and effort in doing so. If worst case scenario, have an official Red Shirt call them and state that those armies with older codex are still playable. Its your army, and you have EVERY right to play them! you spent the time and money for them, only to have someone say you cant play them?! that's just wrong.

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#6
VonMerrick

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I think what bothers me the most is people really get upset when Jervis and GW trimmed the lists to be better tournement armies. Everyone, including me, didn't like the limitations placed on us which takes a great hobby ( ie more than a game) and makes it very sterile and standardized. We wanted freedom and varient lists brought back and it seems that maybe this might occur with the new marine codex with all the special rules surrounding the characters. I just have a hard time understanding that the same people who complain and post laments that GW is making all marine armies the same are thinking about banning a unique and fluffy army. Its the contracdictions which bother me. People have no qualms threating to leave the hobby when their book is re done and limited but want to ban other's because they don't fit the current set up. A good friend of mine quit after 7 years of gaming due to new DA book. This same player has in the last month or so picked the hobby back up as chaos but has complained that my wolves are broken I should use my vanilla marines only against him. I guess that's why I'm so irritated. I mean we have to adapt our lists to each and every new book which comes out, but people don't want to encounter anything different.

Since I've been back, I've seen a lot of one dimensional players who always seem to want that one list which always works all the time. The wolves through a wrench into that mode, so they can't play the same tactics over and over again.

Once again sorry about the rant, but as a family man on a limited budget who truly tries to personalize each mini, and uses a lot of conversions and Forgeworld stuff ( hence it takes a good year to get an army going) I got annoyed when I played in the stores and players who swap armies more than Pam Anderson has swapped husbands tell me my army is cheesy and broken.

Your right, an indepedent tournament can come up with banned armies if they want, but the rationale thats its too old is weak. Honestly if the people just don't like playing against them just have them admit it.

#7
Eirik_Xenobane

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So I assume Witch Hunters, Daemonhunters, Dark Eldar and Tyranids will be excluded for the same reasons?

In fact to be honest, by this logic, the only armies that should be allowed are Orks, Eldar, the new space marines (oh and sorry but we'll have to ban black templars) and Tau.
Lo there do I see the All-father. Lo there do I see the Primarch and my Wolf Brothers. Lo there do I see the line of my people, back to the beginning. Lo, they do call to me, they bid me take my place among them, in the Halls of All-Father, where the brave may live...forever.


#8
Ladislao

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Hi good people,
I would like to ask you, what I was asked today. Should we be stopped till next codex has arrived?

I want to start with saying that we have a very good tournement manager. He has no grudge towards us or anything, his point is valid. ( at least with me since our codex was written two rulesets ago. I do not want this to become a hatefest, just your thought on our codex, pro and cons... and how it "might" interact with the next SM codex.

I know there are people who think that our obel and our wgbl being able to carry HW is hard for some. and not to mention our runic charms and fenrisian wolves.... oh, and our venerable dreadnought.

Me myself, I think we pay a lot for our troops, we are expensive, we are elite. but I am afraid some people cant stand us.

I hope to see some constructive thoughts about our present codex and our place in 40k. I hate going to a torney, feeling that I am breaking some unseen law, I am a Space wolf, alwys been... but it´s no fun to play if we are being viewed as chees, just beause we are son´s of Russ.

I would accept a "no" as in no more SW in this tournement because our codex was written during 3rd ed, only if others are treated the same. (DE)

I hope some of you can help me out, showing where gw went wrong, having our codex getting this old.. ( for some valid points to my organiser)

/discuss



i use this sistem to judge: reality over theory: just look at the major tournamentes, were people fight and pay to win... look, not at the winners, just take the fisrt 10 or 20, and see the army... you will find very very very very few wolves... this is simple the demostration we are not overpowered in any way!!!

try it, you will find that about 80% of that armyes are tyraninds, chaos with 2 lash and a lot of obliterators, eldars, maybe some orks... should we ban them?


QUOTE
No matter how hard the BT's try to be better than SW's. SW's will always be just a little better. Such is the way of life and the many mysteries of the universe. Where it would appear to be common sense, it is not. This isn't a matter of common sense; it's a matter of accepted fact.

So stop wasting countless hours of wondering why, and accept the truth of this mysterious fact of life. We all know those hours could be better spent painting.


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#9
Jonny Wolf

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All I have to say is:

BC w/ Jump pack and WS/BS of 3 = 30 points
Assault marine w/ Jump Pack, WS/BS of 4 = 22 points.

Now...who's round is it?
For the Wolftime, praise Russ!

In Russ we trust, all others kiss my axe.



#10
CaptInsaneO

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All I have to say is:

BC w/ Jump pack and WS/BS of 3 = 30 points
Assault marine w/ Jump Pack, WS/BS of 4 = 22 points.

Now...who's round is it?


Firstly, i'll just say a quick hello <_< This being my first post. Thyalcine told me to check this forum out and from what i've seen so far it looks great!

As for the above quote :) Couldn't agree with you more!

No we shouldn't be banned. I play against a group of regular opponents (wow seriously??? never heard of that!!! - sarcastic to my own posts...disgusting). Every single one of them believes the codex needs to be drastically updated. There opinion is not because we are over-powered but because we are just stupidly out of date! I tend to find people that start complaining about Space Wolves being overpowered is because they've either just been soundly thrashed, have been corrected on a rule they thought was different, or they need an excuse for their own inability to tactically lead a force :)
We are elite and are ment to be elite (duh!). Games Workshop has released FAQ's to keep our codexes "playable" for the new additions so that straight away in mind lets our armies into tournaments for Games Workshop products. I imagine these Tournaments get sponsored by GW aswell.
40k isn't just about winning, it's about how well you lose. If you're opponent is going to win, the less models of his alive to brag about it the better :)

I hate Lucius.

#11
Byrne

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Thank you, to all of you that have contributed to this disussion, I had a hard time letting this go last night, and now seeing more people giving some valid points helps a lot. I will tell him that I don´t think he should stop the wolves, as long it is ok with GW.

Because all he will do is saying that SW is a non playing codex. and that is plainly wrong.

Thanx again.
Trough the storms of the warp they come, upon the very tides of terror, but of such dangers they are uncaring. They are the Space Wolves, the undefeated, the bane of the Emperor's foes.

#12
Lord Howland Greywolf

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I have to agree with this. The amount of times i have played games and my opponant has called me OPed is countless.
Just the other day I was playing Tau and i was using the list i posted for just such an ocassion and he couldnt belive that my LF couldnt fire at his broadsides (Las cannon) and his crises´ (Rocket lounchers) or that my other team could shoot up two squads of fire warriors. he called me harsh for severly creaming him. then i just laughed and called him a sore loser.
If you talk about your gaming life, no matter how carfully you phrase it, you are etheir going to imerge as a liar, a braggart or a fool.

#13
CaptInsaneO

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Because all he will do is saying that SW is a non playing codex. and that is plainly wrong.

Thanx again.


I don't care if the bloke is running the tournament...he actually has no right imo to stop a perfectly legal army from taking part in a tournament especially when there is a GW released errata for that army. Then again if he was talking about a Squat force...haha
He needs to remember that by him running the tournament he is actually representing the hobby, GW and how they would want the game run. Stopping a legal army from playing by claiming it is a non-playing codex is not good representation. Give him a kick in shins from me if he still doesn't allow it :eek
40k isn't just about winning, it's about how well you lose. If you're opponent is going to win, the less models of his alive to brag about it the better :)

I hate Lucius.

#14
WolfGeezer

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Give him a kick in shins from me if he still doesn't allow it


I would do like Russ taught us and challenge him to an eating and ale drinking contest first :lol:
A wolf is for life not just for Christmas!

#15
Spacefrisian

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If our Codex isn't allowed to be used that would be called racism.

BTW i am allowed to use the codex and even 13th co until a new 1 arrives.
There are no Deamons in 40k

#16
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart

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I have to agree with this. The amount of times i have played games and my opponant has called me OPed is countless.
Just the other day I was playing Tau and i was using the list i posted for just such an ocassion and he couldnt belive that my LF couldnt fire at his broadsides (Las cannon) and his crises´ (Rocket lounchers) or that my other team could shoot up two squads of fire warriors. he called me harsh for severly creaming him. then i just laughed and called him a sore loser.


which is funny, as the tau have the ability to split fire as well i believe...some damn suit upgrade.

but no, the Wolves shouldnt be banned. I think any person disallowing the SW should have their ability to run tournies reveoked. they clearly dont have either the common sense or book smarts required to deal with such a task.

wolf lord kieran

Space Wolves are badasses that operate just barely within the rules. 13th Co. didn't even know there were rules applying to how badass they could be. DepthCharge on the Space Wolves

I'm so pleased that GW have gone to such great lengths to produce these awesome Space Wolves basing kits. Wraithwing on the Thousand Sons Rubic Marine release

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#17
Valhalla

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All I have to say is:

BC w/ Jump pack and WS/BS of 3 = 30 points
Assault marine w/ Jump Pack, WS/BS of 4 = 22 points.

Now...who's round is it?


Johnny, I agree with you 100% if anything were at a disadvantage. We pay more than any other army for terminators and basic infantry and our sargeants cost more than other armies such as DA's. I won't even touch bikes, transports and the HQ rule (which I kinda like).

However, I play wolves not for a competitive advantage but for the fluff. When I first started playing 40k I was a vanilla marine player but wanted more behind my army and discovered the wolves. This is one of the few remaining armies with real character to them, though I think Black Templars could be another with a little bit more tweaking.

#18
kanaellars

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Banned? Overpowered? Come on... this is a joke right?

If we were in any way overpowered, why would every single rumor we are hearing about points be that our points are almost universally being DROPPED.

If anything, with our ultra-high points costs, if anything we are UNDER-powered.

We are still a strong, playable list... but as the posters before me have stated, look at the tourneys. How many Wolves do you see winning? In the top 5? Top 10? Hell, the top 50?

If we were as overpowered as people seem to claim, then we would be seeing Wolves at every major tourney beating everyone else.
For Russ! For the Wolftime! My wolves stand ready.

#19
FrozenBear

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However, I play wolves not for a competitive advantage but for the fluff. When I first started playing 40k I was a vanilla marine player but wanted more behind my army and discovered the wolves. This is one of the few remaining armies with real character to them, though I think Black Templars could be another with a little bit more tweaking.


Exactly the reason I started Wolves, and I think most other Wolf players as well.

With Space Wolves, it's not about how many assault cannons you can fit in your list, its about how many goblets of ale you can drink and still win a wrestling match.
"For over a thousand years Roman conquerors returning from the wars enjoyed the honor of triumph, a tumultuous parade. In the procession came trumpeteers, musicians and strange animals from conquered territories, together with carts laden with treasure and captured armaments. The conquerors rode in a triumphal chariot, the dazed prisoners walking in chains before him. Sometimes his children robed in white stood with him in the chariot or rode the trace horses. A slave stood behind the conqueror holding a golden crown and whispering in his ear a warning: that all glory is fleeting."

#20
CaptInsaneO

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However, I play wolves not for a competitive advantage but for the fluff. When I first started playing 40k I was a vanilla marine player but wanted more behind my army and discovered the wolves. This is one of the few remaining armies with real character to them, though I think Black Templars could be another with a little bit more tweaking.


Amen to that. Fluff is the most important thing in the 40k game. The moment everyone realises this the better the game will be AND the more fun Tournaments will be.
40k isn't just about winning, it's about how well you lose. If you're opponent is going to win, the less models of his alive to brag about it the better :)

I hate Lucius.

#21
Vash113

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which is funny, as the tau have the ability to split fire as well i believe...some damn suit upgrade.


Yea its called a Target Lock.

[rant]

Anyway I really don't think Space Wolves should be banned from anything and personally I'm friggin sick and tired of people bitching and moaning about things. I don't care if a codex isn't up to date, I don't care if a new codex or a new rules edition changes things up, cry me a river. Space Wolves are awesome, I say anyone who thinks they should be banned is just jealous cause we can fight and drink beer at the same time, its not our fault those other marines can't multi-task!

Plus Johnny Wolf is entirely correct, we pay more for Assault Marines, Terminators and many other things, and don't have access to a lot of the nifty new rules the marines have been getting, plus as standard we have to take more HQ's than other armies. People really just need to learn to suck it up already and get on with things.
[/rant]

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"The answer always is, the Wolves of Fenris," Torgadon put in. "Because they're clinically insane."
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#22
Wolf Rider 68

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The guy who is running this should take a lot more thought into what he is doing. At a youngbloods tourney a years ago I ran a 13th Company army one day and a normal SW the other 2 days. The organizer had no problem. Everyone voted my army best theme for my army. Why? People like the space wolves for being the bad boys of the astartes. To the subject of being OPed I lost all but one of the games which I won due to being the defender.

Like many have said I started it for the fluff and the look of the wolves. I have a soft spot for the SW because I am part Viking and this guys are like the original vikings in space.

If this guy bans you from playing SW you need to find a group of players who don't power game. Me and the group I'm in organize a tourney and we had awards for "Best Moment", "Most Fluffly Army", and "Most Original Army".
The Sons of Russ are the finest warriors. Why well ask Magnus and he should give you a good anwser.

#23
CaptInsaneO

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we had awards for "Best Moment", "Most Fluffly Army", and "Most Original Army".


haha thats cool. We do things like "best last stand" "most bloody fight" its all about glory and fluff with us :tu:
40k isn't just about winning, it's about how well you lose. If you're opponent is going to win, the less models of his alive to brag about it the better :)

I hate Lucius.

#24
Brother SRM

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I don't think anything really needs to be changed, legality wise.
I get thrashed in about 2/3rds of the games I play in, and I'm using OBEL scouts, venerable dreadnoughts, and runic charms up the wazzoo.
Far from overpowered, (underpowered even, given codex creep) but still fun to play.
Space Wolves: Wins 9 | Losses 11 | Draws 5
Crimson Fists: Wins 14 l Losses 10 l Draws 5
Dark Angels: Wins 37 | Losses 16 | Draws 11
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#25
Level

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surely it has to be a very small minority of players who are complaining about us, or a very small minded person running the tourney.

The best way to deal with the situation is to ask all of the other players who play in the tournaments whether they think the wolves should be banned. Get some kind of petition going that proves that the general populace are actually in touch with reality.

If he still won't allow you to play then he is just being ridiculous.
This is when you challenge him to the eating and drinking contest that was mentioned earlier. If he doesn't accept your challenge, you then have full rights to call him a chicken and proceed to do a chicken like walk around his shop crowing and saying buck buck buckaaaak. If he kicks you out of the shop it won't actually matter because he has effectively already done that. At least this time he will have had a decent reason.

You have spent a good amount of time and not to mention money in building up your current army. it is a legal and playable list, how can he say you can't use it in a tourney?

Buck buck buckaaaak. Thats how, he is too scared to admit he is wrong
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