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IA: Ice Lords

Octavulg DA Loyalist IA 26th Founding

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Octavulg

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FIRE IN THE SNOW: The Ice Lords

A Space Marine's duty is to defend the Imperium. Though we are no longer men as they are, the people of the Imperium are our sacred trust, the people of our home world especially so. To forsake them is to forsake our honor and our right to serve the Emperor. Never forget this, or you forget yourselves.
- from Chapter Master Taramant's Ascension Day address on the third year following the Ice Lords' mobilization


The Ice Lords, though an obscure chapter of recent founding, have a proud history of service to the Imperium. Their just governance of Franklin's World is widely admired, and their reputation in combat is sterling. Tenacious, honorable, and dangerous, the Ice Lords are a credit to the Adeptus Astartes and to mankind.

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An Ice Lords Tactical Marine, Red Squad

Origins
Black were the first days of our history. But so are all days, until mankind is triumphant. - The Chronicle of the Ice Lords, III Canticle

Formed as part of the 26th Founding, the Ice Lords have had a history spotted with misfortune. The chapter suffered a blow early in its lifetime when their training cadre, forced out of warp due to a drive malfunction, was ambushed by iniquitous traitors even as the cadre traveled to join their new charges. Though the enemy marines were repelled, the ferocity of the battle meant only three marines of the Angels of Absolution training cadre survived - Taramant, the senior Sergeant, Belicarius, a junior Chaplain, and Lahdemor, a Codicier. Undaunted, they continued on to join the Ice Lords, and pledged to do everything possible to ensure that the Chapter would be worthy of service to the Emperor. Their vessel, the Heart of Caliban, was ceremonially rededicated to the service of the Ice Lords, and remains a proud part of the chapter fleet today.

Despite the loss of so many of their mentors, the Ice Lords performed admirably. It was remarked by observers how the remaining cadre made new use of seemingly archaic tactics, and on how they seemed to possess experience and capability far beyond their junior ranks. Soon the battle-brothers of the chapter were ready for active duty, and they proudly marched aboard their ships for transfer to their new home world.

Chapter Master Taramant remained secluded throughout the journey, in consultation with the Emperor's Tarot, finally emerging just as the flagship left warp space. While the Chapter's new home world loomed, cold and white, in the viewport, he declared that they would henceforth be known as the Ice Lords. "For duty and honor are cold as ice. And when all else is gone, duty and honor will remain."

Franklin's World is a cold and desolate planet on the northernmost rim of the Segmentum Obscurus. The harsh conditions do not matter, for settlement of the planet is confined to the large cities which float high above the surface. Arcane technology keeps the cities aloft, technology which has resisted the Adeptus Mechanicus' attempts to decipher it. Closer and simpler mysteries now command their attention, though the occasional enterprising team still returns for an exercise in frustration and disappointment. Geographical surveys of the planet below had been frequently thwarted by the raging winds and snows of the surface, making the workings of the world below as much of a mystery as those above.
798.M41 - Aboard the Angels of Absolution Rapid Strike Vessel Heart of Caliban

The twisting currents of the Empyrean were whirling around the Heart of Caliban. Taramant could not see them, but he could feel them nonetheless, as he had been able to ever since the moment on Caliban when the planet fell to pieces around him and he and his opponents were ripped through time and space with it. Belicarius and Lahdemor - the three of them had spat curses at each other as their feet slipped across the nearly-molten surface of Caliban, but when the twisting currents of the Warp released them all they could do was collapse, sobbing with horror and pain. He remembered that day.

In front of Taramant, at the Navigator's podium, Lahdemor's brow was knit with the effort of a duty that a Librarian never expected to perform. Belicarius was watching Lahdemor, drumming fingers on the pauldron of armor freshly painted with the white of the 'Angels of Absolution'. It was difficult to comprehend the magnitude of the blessing the Emperor had bestowed on them in the form of Prilbu Gossk and his training cadre, who had thought capturing three 'Fallen' a good start to their time with a new chapter. Taramant had briefly considered salvaging the armor of the training cadre, but holes of that size required the attention of proper artificers, not mere Marines.

So Prilbu Gossk and his marines were drifting ever-closer to some half-forgotten moon, some day to reassure the inhabitants of the Emperor's favor as bright streaks in the sky, and Taramant and two men damned by the Lion as traitors were taking their place. Not that Taramant would have escaped such damnation - as he had watched Caliban burn, he had quickly realized that to the Lion, there could only be one treachery - betraying the Lion, surpassing the Lion, doing anything other than the Lion's will. While for Taramant the flames were burning honor, duty and home, all they burned for the Lion were those so bold as to cross their lord. The oaths they all had sworn to protect Caliban were meaningless, sacrificed to the Lion's pride, just like the people below.

The honor of the Dark Angels had died with the people of Caliban. Taramant, Belicarius and Lahdemor would restore it, or die in the attempt. Death, Taramant admitted, seemed more likely. Three loyal Dark Angels were mighty, but they were not mighty enough.

But then, soon there would be more than just three.

The Heart of Caliban shuddered as it slipped into reality. Lahdemor opened his eyes, leaning against the podium in exhaustion. Belicarius weighed his Crozius in his hand. And Taramant smiled, cold as ice.


The Ice Lords took Falconscott (the smallest and least populated of the cities) for their own, fortifying it and adding weapons emplacements across its hull and spires. They began inducting recruits from the population, whose adventurous pilot-knights and vicious tunnel-gangers proved excellent Space Marines. After the celebrations surrounding the Chapter's arrival on the world, Taramant promoted close association with the populace, exhorting the Space Marines to remember that these were the people of the Imperium, and their duty incarnate. The young marines took these lessons to heart, and the bonds between the Marines and their people grew. Small chapterhouses were established in the other cities, both to aid in recruitment and to promote the marines' association with the populace.

The Fall of the Fortress
Although I am not certain as to the cause, Sergeant, I think what may be far more important are the effects. - Techmarine Janos

The Ascendant Festival on Falconscott marks the longest day of the year. The ice which typically covers the tips of city spires melts, and the cities are suffused with warmth and laughter. All Space Marines present on the planet are dispatched throughout the cities, to mingle with the population and observe those who might make good candidates for the Chapter. Games of strength and skill are common, and bloodless aerial battles between young pilots an entertaining diversion for the crowds. Although ordinarily a happy time, the hundred-and-twenty-eighth Festival after the Chapter's arrival on their home world was marked by calamity.

As the revelers celebrated across the planet, the streets of Falconscott began to shudder. The strength of the spasms threw grown men from their feet, and even the Space Marines were hard pressed to keep their balance. Clouds whisked by, and the wind grew to a howling shriek as the mighty city began to plunge toward the surface of the planet below.

Techmarines and officers raced into the bowels of the city, while the other marines attempted to contain the panic among the citizens. However, the arcane machinery which had confounded the best Techno-Magi of the Imperium was still loathe to give up its secrets, and the Marines remained ignorant of what might have caused the precipitous descent. They could only do their best to ensure that the city was not destroyed upon impact.

Fortunately for the Chapter, ancient backup systems were functional. As the city approached the surface, its rate of descent began to slow. But impact was inevitable, and the population was thrown into confusion and panic as millions of tons of metal struck the ancient ice of the planetary surface.

The buildings and lower tunnels of Falconscott were breached in dozens of locations, driven deep into the ice. Some were crushed, along with their inhabitants. Some were cut off from the rest of the city, the people within left to slowly starve with no chance of rescue. The regular, coherent levels of the lower city were gone, replaced with a crazed metal-and-ice warren of tunnels, chasms and precipices, while the upper city was a twisted wreck, shattered ice and building intermingled to form a strange and confusing new world.

Master Taramant and many other marines were gone from Franklin's World, fighting the last of the Genestealers from the hulk Vociferous Abomination. The young Captain Telemachus of the Sixth was the senior officer in the city. He notified Taramant of what had happened and began to search for survivors in the undercity, leaving a few of his sergeants to organize the citizens above. Despite the many lives Telemachus saved, the Marines and their people were trapped, out of reach of the other garrisons on-planet, who possessed no ships capable of penetrating the howling winds on the surface.

The Knights and the Wolves
Your thoughts do not show us a new way, Telemachus. All they show are my failings as a teacher. - Taramant of the Ice Lords

By the time Master Taramant returned, with powerful landers that could penetrate the winds below, conflict had arisen. In the months Telemachus and his men had spent trapped within Falconscott, they had lost all respect for the people of the city and grown to despise them for their weakness, coming to believe that the fall of Falconscott had been punishment from the Emperor himself. When a mighty wolf had leapt from the driving snow into the city, slaying a dozens of the citizens before being brought down itself, Telemachus had taken this as the final proof of the Emperor's displeasure with Taramant's beliefs. Further attacks by the beasts only reinforced this conclusion.

These wolves had been unknown before, overlooked by unambitious Mechanicus genetors who feared the planet's harsh environment, but they soon became a common sight in the snow outside the city. They were great, hulking beasts, long of fang and powerful of limb, solitary and dangerous, and Telemachus admired their power.

Telemachus and his supporters insisted that the way of the wolves was the way to true greatness for the Ice Lords. The Ice Lords should concern themselves with the Ice Lords, first and foremost. Consorting with the people of Falconscott hurt the people, for they could not become strong enough to stand on their own, and it hurt the Ice Lords, who were weakened by the need to defend the people, instead of using all their might to strike against the enemies of man. Using less than their full strength was a betrayal of the Emperor, as was weakening his subjects by not allowing them to achieve strength on their own. Thus, said Telemachus, the best course of action for the Ice Lords was to leave Franklin's World and its people behind. Though the people would find it hard at first, it could only strengthen them in the long run. His supporters, who had christened themselves the Wolves, agreed.

Taramant did not, and his wrath was terrible to behold. He rebuked Telemachus in a public Conclave of the Chapter, calling the Captain dishonorable and little better than a traitor. Telemachus had confused personal glory with honor, Taramant said, and deserved neither. Belicarius and Lahdemor supported Taramant wholeheartedly, as did the majority of the Chapter brethren, who were christened 'Knights' by the jeering Wolves. Further incensed by this behavior, Taramant stripped Telemachus and his supporters of their rank in the Chapter and of their place in the Chapter's Roll of Honor, declaring that they had abandoned their duty, and must earn their honor back or be forgotten. Humiliated, beset by the Knights, and with their influence within the chapter greatly eroded, the Wolves subsided, at least for a time.

Home World
I understand what it represents, Taramant. I just wonder if there were not warmer worlds which symbolized our duty to humanity. - Chaplain Belicarius of the Ice Lords

Franklin's World is nearly as cold as the empty space which surrounds it. Howling winds lash the snow and ice into strange and twisted forms, and life is rare and dangerous. The people of Franklin's World, however, are isolated from this in their expansive floating cities. Constructed in the Dark Age of Technology, their presence on this desolate world on the edge of the galaxy has been a question of great debate among Imperial scholars. Whether it was once a military base, a research station, or something far stranger, Franklin's World is now an isolated planet which has little contact with other systems. Its people are relatively happy, and the floating cities are ruled by powerful noble families, each of which maintain their own fortified towers within the cities. These nobles pride themselves on the mastery of their ritualized forms of war, and duels upon gliders which soar on the shrieking winds between the towers are a popular form of entertainment and an equally popular method of settling dispute. The tunnels beneath the cities, meanwhile, are home to few other than criminals and those forced down from the surface due to mutation or heresy. The vicious tunnel gangs which breed in this dark environment are the source of some of the Ice Lords' fiercest recruits, but that practice has come into question due to the marked tendency of former gangers to become Wolf adherents.

Falconscott, of course, is now much different than the other cities. Always the smallest city, its population is now even smaller than it was. The old social order has remained much the same, but the introduction of the former residents of the undercity has sapped the power of the nobles, who now face organized, dangerous groups unfamiliar with obedience. Some few of the city's areas still have fully functioning environment systems, and these have become havens for commerce and community. The remainder of the city is increasingly moving into newly excavated ice tunnels, preferring to build anew rather than attempt to salvage the chaotic wreckage that most of the city has become.

The surface of Franklin's World itself has lately been discovered to be far different than previously thought. The mighty wolves discovered after the Fall of the Fortress are just one of the dozens of newly discovered creatures which seem to make their homes in the freezing wastes. Mechanicus Genetor teams have expressed a pronounced interest in the makeup of the monsters, and have taken several corpses for study. They remain loathe to actually explore the surface themselves.
Excerpt from Anecdotes of the 41st Millennium, Volume MCXVI by Stanforth McGramman, junior archivist to the Library of Sycorax

The Medea Incident has been all but forgotten in the massive campaigns and vast slaughter of the 41st Millennium When systems are laid waste in swift and terrible campaigns by equally terrible forces, it is easy to lose sight of the slow bleeding of a world by the lesser enemies of Man.

Nonetheless, the Medea Incident deserves to be remembered. The world of Medea is an unimportant planet in the far north of the Imperium, and its plaintive calls for aid against raiders had been overlooked in a galaxy where the forces of Man are needed everywhere. Hope had been forsaken by the Medeans when a single rapid strike vessel slipped from the Warp above their world, containing Chaplain Belicarius and a tactical squad of the Ice Lords.

The vulnerable planet had become a frequent target of Orkin, Human and Dark Eldar raiders, all eager to steal what they could from the planet, all delighting in bloodshed and destruction. Such delight was quickly stemmed by the Ice Lords, who undertook training and equipping of the Medean population for war. Where raiders had once been met with flight and frantic pleas for mercy, they were now met with a hail of bullets and cries of havoc and war. The raiders began to make larger and larger forays, seeking security and strength in numbers, only to be met with greater concentrations of Medeans, supported by marines. As the raiders were forced into larger and larger groups for their own protection, the Ice Lords were better able to bring their strength to bear, along with the new-found strength of the Medeans. Soon enough, the raiders who had once wreaked havoc across Medea were simply a nuisance - and soon after that, they were gone completely, and Medea prospered, stronger than it had been before.

Where other chapters would have sent a front-line company, thus being forced to allow some other world to fall, the Ice Lords sent a minimal group from a Reserve Company. Where some chapters might have leapt to confront one enemy, and thus left the planet open to others, the Ice Lords remembered their duty, and instead prepared the planet so that even together its enemies could not prevail.

It was not glorious, exciting, or a grandiose display of power and the Emperor's might. But it saved the planet just as well, and that was enough for the Ice Lords.

Beliefs
You are no longer men. You are to be Space Marines. You now serve mankind, in a way that you could not before, because you were of mankind. You must defend them, help them, and die for them. That is as it should be. - Chaplain Belicarius, addressing a group of new initiates

The Ice Lords subscribe to the typical Astartes belief that the Emperor is the savior of humanity, but not a god, and they hold to it with a vehemence equaled only by that of First and Second Founding chapters. However, they maintain no veneration for their Primarch, Lion El'Jonson, a quirk which has astonished Imperial observers. Unsurprisingly, they are reticent about this facet of their beliefs, and also demonstrate a marked aversion to associating with those chapters that refer to themselves as the Unforgiven.

The beliefs of the faction known as the Knights were for many years the beliefs of the chapter as a whole. Taramant and the Knights believe that the role of the Space Marines in the Imperium is to defend the people of the Chapter home world and the people of the Imperium. Concerns of the chapter and of individual marines are subordinate to the demands of that duty. To reinforce these beliefs, Taramant encourages communication with the people of Franklin's World, often making use of civilian artisans or laborers. There are relatively few chapter serfs - most of the chapter's servants are drawn from the general population and return there after a period of service. The few serfs are generally drawn from the pool of failed aspirants, and are encouraged to maintain bonds with their families outside the fortress monastery. Most serfs direct ordinary laborers or serve in relatively honorable positions in the fleet or monastery.

Space Marine participation in public rituals and in the administration of the world is common. The Captain of whichever company is serving to garrison the planet at any particular time also serves as the Lord Commander of Falconscott. The Lord Commander is the final court of appeal on the world (though it would be a fool who requested his judgment in a trivial matter), and a Space Marine also serves as executioner to the courts. On holy days, Space Marines often judge tests of skill and strength, and occasionally participate in bloodless melees where one marine confronts several challengers from the people. In addition to this, the marines are expected to wander the streets of whatever city they may be in, visiting family or friends from their old lives. All this had produced a remarkably close bond between the marines and the people, but the advent of the Wolves has soured it.

Although Taramant's efforts to force the Wolves into submission have been mostly successful, their silent defiance and all-too-public initial protestations have greatly hurt the chapter's relationship with the people. Although no overt conflict has arisen yet, the people of Falconscott are noticeably less welcoming toward the marines. This appears to greatly trouble Master Taramant, and what course of action he will take to try and mend this breach with the populace is unknown.

Wolf-based iconography is growing common among some of the more vicious members of the Chapter, while those who hold to Taramant's ways have begun to adopt the sign of a broken sword to show their allegiance to his ideas (and, the more cynical adherents note, the probability that they will come to naught). Taramant, meanwhile, seems to hope that a schism within the chapter can somehow be avoided, and appears to be trying to contain the schismatic beliefs to their current holders, while ensuring that new recruits of the Scout Company are firmly indoctrinated in the thinking of the Knights.

There is growing worry among high-ranking officers that the Wolves may resent the attempts at suppression of their views even more than they already seem to. Although combat operations have in no way suffered as yet, it is a sign of the depth of the problem that several officers are beginning to express concern about the possible loyalty of their troops. Civil war may be unavoidable.

Combat Doctrine
Your enemy's realization that he watched every direction but above is the most gratifying sight you can see in this life. - Captain Darius of the First Company
The Vociferous Abomination Campaign
The Space Hulk Vociferous Abomination had drifted through dozens of systems before the Ice Lords discovered it. Cleansing it cost the lives of dozens of marines, but that was necessary to determine just where the vile construct had been. No one could tell in how many of those systems it had released foul Genestealers to pollute the purity of Man. Nonetheless, the Ice Lords did not leave the matter to the Imperial Guard, and they did not annihilate the populations of those planets as a quick and simple solution.

Working with the Inquisition, three companies undertook the monumental task of ensuring that every planet that might have been corrupted by the Hulk was pure. The forces of the Inquisition would labor tirelessly to determine whether a planetary population had been corrupted, while the forces of Ice Lords waited in orbit. When the darkest concerns of the Imperium were confirmed, as they were all too often, the Ice Lords would land and carefully ferret out and destroy the Cult, even when whole populations turned against them.

Twenty-three years of tireless work and near-constant fighting still resulted in a death toll of millions dead, including many Ice Lords, but billions were saved who might otherwise have been slain in an attempt to save the lives of Space Marines and Inquisitors. And why should men die to save those who should die to defend them?

Most Space Marine Chapters rely heavily on a crushing orbital or aerial assault in order to secure their victories. While the Ice Lords are not unwilling to make use of such tactics, they seem far more comfortable on the ground, using more conventional tactics of maneuvering armor and infantry to secure victory. The superlative skills of Ice Lords pilots will be put to use in providing close air support where conditions permit, whether that be with lighter bombers and fighters or with the powerful Thunderhawks.

This likely stems from the Chapter's early difficulties with their training cadre - rather than cultivate the broader skillset of other Chapters, Taramant and his compatriots appear to have decided that it was best for them to focus their limited resources on the cultivation of a mastery of the most basic methods of Space Marine warfare. Though time has obviously allowed the Ice Lords to broaden their capabilities and acquire a familiarity with what are seen as standard Space Marine tactics, the Chapter seems to retain a marked preference for the methods of their initial instruction.

The combat doctrine of the Ice Lords relies on the use of fast elements to support a heavily armed, but less flexible, force. Speeders and aerospace craft are the favored means of providing this support, likely due to the influence of recruits who possess remarkable facility with both. Their experiences with clearing Space Hulks and with the monsters beneath Falconscott have also begun to shape the chapter into formidable close-quarters specialists.

The Ice Lords have often displayed the Dark Angels' legendary tenacity, especially when defending civilian populations. However, they display none of the Dark Angel intolerance towards abhumans and non-humans, and equally none of the standoffishness or inscrutable tendencies to desertion of a combat zone the Dark Angels are infamous for. These traits have combined to make the Ice Lords popular with Imperial commanders, who appreciate tenacious and capable allies, but appreciate them even more when they do not suddenly depart the field of battle without explanation.

Organization
Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one knows the wrong rituals - Lahdemor, Master of the Librarium

The Ice Lords are generally a traditional codex chapter, with all that entails. In exception to the norm, the Ice Lords Scout Company is hardly ever assembled as a formation, and usually operates as individual squads attached to companies fighting offworld. Captains are given relative leeway in the structure of their companies, and the reserve companies are generally not the monolithic organizations of specialists that they are in many other chapters, though they are expected to maintain facility with particular areas of expertise.

The Reserve Companies often engage in pirate-hunting and other such exercises, to keep their skills fully honed. The First Company is regarded similarly to a normal Battle Company, and often undertakes similar engagements and serves a normal rotation in garrison on Franklin's World. The First Company is almost always under the personal command of the Chapter Master, and the post of First Company Captain is thus usually held by the least experienced of the Captains.

Geneseed
It will be hard to defend the Imperium if we succumb to corruption from within, young initiate. Harder still if that corruption involves tentacles. - Tull, Master of the Apothecarion

The Ice Lords recruit from every city on Franklin's World. The nobles of the upper cities are trained in warfare from early ages, as are many of their adherents, and these youths make fine Space Marines. The glider duels common among city spires have made piloting almost second-nature to a warrior of Franklin's World, and many Space Marines retain this aptitude. The vicious gangers of the undercities are excellent hunters and close-fighters, but their overwhelming tendency to follow the beliefs of the Wolves has lead to a noted decline in their recruitment.

Among the gangers, recruitment by the Space Marines was seen as recognition of one's prowess as a fighter, while recruitment in the upper city is looked upon as one of the highest honors a family can receive. Many commoners have found their other children sought after as husbands or wives for nobles after a son is taken as a Space Marine, while a failing noble house can find its popularity restored with such a coup.
Thanks and Acknowledgements
Thanks go to Sigismund Himself, Strike Captain Lysimachus, Telveryon, and the many, many, many others who have provided insights, told me when I was wrong, and helped me turn this from a bad idea into a good one.

The Ice Lords bear the geneseed of Lion'El Jonson. It appears pure and uncorrupted, which is of little surprise considering their relatively short history and the notable purity of the Dark Angel seed. Quite why the Ice Lords do not maintain many Dark Angel practices has not been determined, but it clearly cannot derive from the geneseed. No record has ever been found of the Ice Lords referring to themselves as Unforgiven, and the Chapter actually seems to actively shun the company of such Chapters. Much speculation has arisen among some Imperial scholastic communities as to why this might be so.

Battlecry
Roar your defiance to the enemy. Let them feel the chill of fear, and let them know that they face the true defenders of Humanity - Chaplain Belicarius

Honor and duty remain!

Edited by Octavulg, 29 January 2013 - 02:16 AM.

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#2
Tyrannicide

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Well. I originally had around a larger reply, before my computer mysteriously shut down, so sorry if this is a bit blunt. :P

I think that this is an excellent article. It is well written and I can see that its been thought out. I think that the two political 'factions' inside of the Chapter work well, although I'm not in favor of the names or heraldry of either side. It just seems like stolen iconography and the names are a little too simple, for my tastes. I also am opposed to the name of the Ice Lords' homeworld, Franklin's World. Throughout the article I would glaze over the name, with only a single train-of-thought, this. Maybe it's just me if you like it keep it, don't let me shoot it down. Other than a minor concern regarding grammar the IA looks fairly solid.

It took months to clear most of the creatures from the tunnels, but the brothers of the chapter knew that every twisted thing they slew they slew was one less which might trouble the city above.

The Ice Lords were and are a traditional codex chapter.


I understand that you're suggesting that the Ice Lords have always been a Codex-adhering Chapter, but in my eyes it would sound much better without the 'were' part of the sentence.


Just a few of my thoughts on the article, I thought it was good and I'm looking forward to some more material on this Chapter. :)

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#3
Octavulg

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Well. I originally had around a larger reply, before my computer mysteriously shut down, so sorry if this is a bit blunt. dry.gif


Y'know, you're the second person that's happened to reading one of my IAs. It's kind of creepy.

I think that this is an excellent article. It is well written and I can see that its been thought out.


If a gradual process of people telling me stuff is lousy and then me slowly realising it is is thinking, then yes. Yes it has been. :)

I think that the two political 'factions' inside of the Chapter work well, although I'm not in favor of the names or heraldry of either side. It just seems like stolen iconography and the names are a little too simple, for my tastes.


It is stolen iconography, frankly. :P It stems from the unfortunate fact that 90% of my Terminators are either ex-Wolf Guard or ex-Deathwing.

However, in my defense, stealing iconography from the DA makes sense for Taramant, and Wolves...well, giant ravening wolves lurking in the blizzards ready to tear apart the defenseless humans feels right somehow. Maybe it's the Canadian weather. ;)

I also am opposed to the name of the Ice Lords' homeworld, Franklin's World. Throughout the article I would glaze over the name, with only a single train-of-thought, this. Maybe it's just me if you like it keep it, don't let me shoot it down.


If I start to see a green turtle when I read the name, it will change.

It's actually named for an Arctic explorer.

I understand that you're suggesting that the Ice Lords have always been a Codex-adhering Chapter, but in my eyes it would sound much better without the 'were' part of the sentence.


True, especially since they undergo no organizational change whatsoever any more. Also, the double slew thing is fixed.

Just a few of my thoughts on the article, I thought it was good and I'm looking forward to some more material on this Chapter. smile.gif


Won't be much more for a little while. I'm going to get the IA good and solid, then worry about my two other pet ideas.

Once I take care of those, the Ice Lords will receive some further attention. Perhaps I will steal a march from Battletech and do Field Manual: Ice Lords. Or do a campaign synopsis or something. We shall see.

Really, I haven't had their ideas long enough to develop too much more about them. And I don't want to take them too much further along, because then I have to resolve their problems. And where's the fun in that?

Proud author of the Ice Lords, the Bronze Prophets, the Stone Hearts, the Steel Dogs and the The Marines Tenebric.

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Help me update the Big Liber Timeline!

"Wake up. Pray. Train. Pray. Drop screaming through the atmosphere from low orbit into a raging battlefield, and take the fight to enemies that may outnumber us by as little as three to one. Do battle with the most horrific enemies of mankind imaginable and charge into lines of weapons that could shred a tank into ribbons. Afterward, lunch, time permitting." - Marshal Arturas, 15/05/08


#4
Sigismund Himself

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Ooo, an update. Looking much better, particularly with the disappearance of the cache of Termi armour :D

What the future holds for them, none can say.

Bit of a weak sentence, can anybody say what the future truly holds for anyone? Apart from the Emperor, Chaos Gods etc. etc.

When they related their tale to their horrified charges, the new marines swore that they would redouble their efforts at training, in memory of their fallen tutors. The Feast of the Fallen is celebrated every year, and is a day of mourning, remembrance and contemplation of what might have been.

The second sentence could perhaps do with a bit of adjustment. It just didn't seem to read well in the flow of the article, needed a little explanation. It got better as I re-read it but first time through, it was awkward.

Soon, the battle-brothers of the chapter were ready for activation...

Activation?

...had confounded the best Tech-Priests of the Imperium...

The very best would visit this humble little planet? I doubt most of them could survive outside a Forge World.

General: You seem to focus a little too much on Franklin's World and the events that happen there. There is not one other battle mentioned. Only the actions upon Franklin's World. It's a little 2-D, surely there would have been something memorable in that 23 years before the Fall? If not during and after the Fall.

Companies: Mention what companies were present on world when the city fell. Did the others return swiftly etc.?

Wolves: Introduction of them is a bit odd. The way you've got it seems like the marines knew about them before the city fell. Perhaps saying something like, over time, certain marines came to admire the wolves

Geneseed: This would be a particularly good place to mention why the pilots and gangers make such good recruits plus any initiation tests etc.

Battlecry: From Taramant's reason why they are called the Ice Lords. "Honour and Duty Remain". "While we still stand, Honour and Duty Remain."

Sidebars: They just seem too long. Plus the second one explains a lot but doesn't really fit in the IA.

And where's the fun in that?

What, writing IA are meant to be fun? :RTBBB:

#5
Lysimachus

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Hello again! Well, as before, I’m largely very impressed by this on the whole but (and I’m afraid I’m going to sound like a broken record here :D ) my problem is still that, while the ideas in it are all excellent, there are IMHO simply too many for one chapter, especially such a young one.

If I were in a position to take one of the threads in it out it would (oddly enough) be my absolute favourite one – the Fallen command staff.
Now that may sound crazy but let me say I don’t mean get rid of the idea altogether, in fact I’ll come back to it at the end.



Without it though, the Ice Lords still work pretty much exactly the same and the links they have to the Dark Angels are all quite vague and are easily reworked
e.g.
Their tenacity, stubbornness, etc and focus on duty and honour don’t have to be from a Dark Angel, the first Master could come from any Codex oriented Chapter and had that kind of personality which he instilled in his troops… etc

Pure geneseed is mentioned but that could be Ultras, Fists, etc. no problem!

The use of a broken sword by one of the sides of the Chapter schism, again is no problem, its an obvious symbol for any group of warriors (sword) who are split in some way (broken)

Everything else in the IA still follows on nicely (the DAoT floating cities and monsters under the ice, the crash and resulting schism, etc – it all progresses logically) and works perfectly well without the Fallen bit. Would also give you more space to look at other things that they’ve done like Sig mentioned:

General: You seem to focus a little too much on Franklin's World and the events that happen there. There is not one other battle mentioned. Only the actions upon Franklin's World. It's a little 2-D, surely there would have been something memorable in that 23 years before the Fall? If not during and after the Fall.




Anyway…
Back to the Fallen command bit – I think this is what irritates me most about this IA, I wish I’d thought of this idea first ;) !
The sidebar you’ve written about Taramant is awesome and would form a fantastic start to an IA, but (again as Sig said) it:

explains a lot but doesn't really fit in the IA.


Why not use just them as a separate Chapter? There are just so many ways it could grow from there, things like:

1)forming his own Inner Circle against the Lion who know the ‘truth’ of what he did to Caliban,

2)or even joining the hunt for the Fallen but with a secret objective within the Unforgiven’s secret objective of offering those they find a real chance for redemption; not just redemption by a long, torturous death, but a chance to fight for the Emperor once more

3)then they’d be hiding in plain sight from the DA + successors, mouthing all the right platitudes in the direction of The Rock but secretly doing what they could to undo their work, etc

and so on and so on....
see what I mean? It’s an idea that has so much mileage just in itself but you spend so much time looking at the other parts of the IA there’s no time or space to look into all these possibilities

(as an entirely side point, if i were to do this i'd make them a little older founding-wise, give you more time for their 'special' nature to take shape)




I just think the two parts don’t need each other and would work better apart. I know you’ve been working on these guys a long time and it might be a bit of a wrench to tear them apart like that, but look at it this way – I think you can either have one very good IA or with a little bit of thought and work, 2 brilliant ones


Anyway, as always feel free to ignore me, its not my baby! :)
And as always much respect, all my opinions aside its still a damn good piece of work

Edited by Strike Captain Lysimachus, 12 August 2008 - 11:07 AM.


#6
Octavulg

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Bit of a weak sentence, can anybody say what the future truly holds for anyone? Apart from the Emperor, Chaos Gods etc. etc.


It's an IA! It's supposed to have that sort of pseudo-dramatic pointlessness. :P

Not that I kept it, mind.

Activation?


Changed to "active duty".

The very best would visit this humble little planet? I doubt most of them could survive outside a Forge World.


The very best minds who were willing to disconnect themselves from their machinery and undertake the slightly dangerous journey, as opposed to staying on the warm and cozy forge world with their techno-concubines.

It lacks the same ring, no? ;)

General: You seem to focus a little too much on Franklin's World and the events that happen there. There is not one other battle mentioned. Only the actions upon Franklin's World. It's a little 2-D, surely there would have been something memorable in that 23 years before the Fall? If not during and after the Fall.


Probably. I'll do a tiny sidebar mentioning some brief engagement or something. Perhaps two. I just haven't had any particularly fun battles, and I don't like making them up out of whole cloth. I'll work on it.

Companies: Mention what companies were present on world when the city fell. Did the others return swiftly etc.?


I honestly don't see why that would be entirely necessary (the second bit perhaps, but the first bit?). Does it really matter which companies were there and which were away?

Added in that it was First and Third, and that other nearby ones return.

Wolves: Introduction of them is a bit odd. The way you've got it seems like the marines knew about them before the city fell. Perhaps saying something like, over time, certain marines came to admire the wolves


As a gradual thing, it could likely have been stopped much more easily. Plus, I like the whole "Moses comes down from the mountain and kicks everyone's asses for straying" aspect.

I'll try and introduce the Wolves in a fashion which makes it clearer they were a surprise.

Geneseed: This would be a particularly good place to mention why the pilots and gangers make such good recruits plus any initiation tests etc.


Indeed it would. And now it is. No initiation tests, but that's because I can't really think of any in particular.

Battlecry: From Taramant's reason why they are called the Ice Lords. "Honour and Duty Remain". "While we still stand, Honour and Duty Remain."


Gone with the first one. Many thanks. :P

Sidebars: They just seem too long. Plus the second one explains a lot but doesn't really fit in the IA.


How does it not fit? Style, content, something else?

And yes, they are remarkably long. I'll eliminate Govannin's, which I'm not entirely happy with anyway. Taramant's has already been shortened rather a lot.

Though I could still cut his first paragraph. That work a little better?

What, writing IA are meant to be fun? ohmy.gif


Damn me for a heretic, indeed. :o

* * *

Hello again! Well, as before, I’m largely very impressed by this on the whole but (and I’m afraid I’m going to sound like a broken record here rolleyes.gif ) my problem is still that, while the ideas in it are all excellent, there are IMHO simply too many for one chapter, especially such a young one.


You do realize that there are now fewer ideas than last time you were here, right?

If I were in a position to take one of the threads in it out it would (oddly enough) be my absolute favourite one – the Fallen command staff.
Now that may sound crazy but let me say I don’t mean get rid of the idea altogether, in fact I’ll come back to it at the end.


See, the Fallen command staff provide motivation for the whole "love the people" angle. Without them, I lose the civil war or at least have to come up with a better reason for the viewpoint of the marines (which I see as at least a little tricky, unless they're Salamanders). The two ideas are sufficiently linked I just can't separate the two. Frankly, if I went off to do another Fallen-lead chapter, this is exactly where it would lead again.

Whereas with the Fallen, I can just have Taramant feel betrayed by the destruction of Caliban - from there, he resolves to prevent such a thing happening again as much as he can. So he goes and grabs him a Space Marine chapter, and tries to raise them right.

Leading by example, sort of thing.

Everything else in the IA still follows on nicely (the DAoT floating cities and monsters under the ice, the crash and resulting schism, etc – it all progresses logically) and works perfectly well without the Fallen bit. Would also give you more space to look at other things that they’ve done like Sig mentioned:


I'm uncomfortable writing about other things they've done since (IRL) they haven't really done much. Boltman beat them up with his Death Guard once, and I have a few minor victories against some other stuff, but it's hardly the stuff legends are made on.

I might cut the monsters under the ice, though I love them dearly. OTOH, fighting ravening monsters through ice tunnels! And an evil DAoT AI deep below.

Could just cut the foreshadowing implications of the monsters, and leave it for another time. Have done so, in fact.

Anyway…
Back to the Fallen command bit – I think this is what irritates me most about this IA, I wish I’d thought of this idea first tongue.gif !


To this I can only say:

HA-HA! I got it first! ;)

The sidebar you’ve written about Taramant is awesome and would form a fantastic start to an IA, but (again as Sig said) it:


Again, how does it not fit? The style? Or the content?

1)forming his own Inner Circle against the Lion who know the ‘truth’ of what he did to Caliban,


Which he did. Notice how it's him and his amigos? They don't get as much screen time, but they're there. I'd like to give them more space, but that's not what IAs are really for.

Except the newly added snarky title quotes, where they all get to say something.

2)or even joining the hunt for the Fallen but with a secret objective within the Unforgiven’s secret objective of offering those they find a real chance for redemption; not just redemption by a long, torturous death, but a chance to fight for the Emperor once more


Could be awkward, what with the intense scrutiny the Dark Angels no doubt have among themselves. Hiding in plain sight is one thing...joining the Hunt for the Fallen is a little too overt.

3)then they’d be hiding in plain sight from the DA + successors, mouthing all the right platitudes in the direction of The Rock but secretly doing what they could to undo their work, etc


You mean they're not right now?

They're trying to redeem themselves, and do what they feel is right with a Space Marine chapter. From there, they can influence the others. Better to do something small and succeed than try something big and fail completely.

and so on and so on....
see what I mean? It’s an idea that has so much mileage just in itself but you spend so much time looking at the other parts of the IA there’s no time or space to look into all these possibilities


There are many different directions the idea could be taken, yes. OTOH, I quite like the whole "Jonson was a bastard, and we're going to go do this defending humanity thing RIGHT. Screw him, and screw the Dark Angels." angle.

(as an entirely side point, if i were to do this i'd make them a little older founding-wise, give you more time for their 'special' nature to take shape)


Indeed. I actually have them recent so there's less chance of them having been discovered. The DA are rather dedicated to hunting the Fallen, after all, so it would seem odd if they were too old.

I just think the two parts don’t need each other and would work better apart. I know you’ve been working on these guys a long time and it might be a bit of a wrench to tear them apart like that, but look at it this way – I think you can either have one very good IA or with a little bit of thought and work, 2 brilliant ones


New plan - the mystery with the monsters is (mostly) gone. It is certainly no longer a major point in the IA. The IA is now all about the civil war.

Look at it this way. Boy joins DA. Boy feels DA have betrayed ideals, and goes and steals someone else's chapter. Boy molds that chapter into a group which will defend their people and the people of the Imperium no matter the cost. Boy then discovers that his best attempts may have failed, and that a hefty percentage of chapter wants to do exactly what he wants them not to. Boy has the choice of basically recreating the events that tore his chapter and home world apart, or trying to last things out by doing the minimum possible to upset things and being very careful.

But can boy succeed with the mounting tensions within the chapter? And between the chapter and people? Or have things failed utterly?

Would the sidebar perhaps work better if I moved it up somewhat, so the secret was known almost from the beginning - then things would have a nice level of dramatic irony the whole way through, and the narrative above would be a lot more obvious.

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#7
Swordlord

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My first question is if Belicarius is a traitor or not. I realize he is a Chaplain, but in the sidebar, he is fighting Taramant as a traitor. It's a little confusing, to me at least.

On the plus side, I think the quotes after each header add personality to an interesting Index.

More after a deep-down reading.


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#8
Octavulg

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Ah. Removing the first paragraph actually made something less clear. Whoops.

Taramant was a loyalist DA with major doubts, fighting two Fallen DA (and questioning it rather heavily). Then they all got sucked into the Warp, and were distracted by fear and regret. Then they kissed, made up, and went off to usurp other chapters. Taramant became a traitor, Belicarius already was.

EDIT: If I threw in a reference to his own armor being green, would that make it a little clearer?

Edited by Octavulg, 12 August 2008 - 09:36 PM.

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#9
Swordlord

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Ah. Removing the first paragraph actually made something less clear. Whoops.

Taramant was a loyalist DA with major doubts, fighting two Fallen DA (and questioning it rather heavily). Then they all got sucked into the Warp, and were distracted by fear and regret. Then they kissed, made up, and went off to usurp other chapters. Taramant became a traitor, Belicarius already was.

EDIT: If I threw in a reference to his own armor being green, would that make it a little clearer?


So, the Ice Lords are a traitor legion?


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#10
Octavulg

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Er...no.

You've read the whole thing? And can't work out their relationship to the Dark Angels?

EDIT: Having realized that I just restated their relationship to the DA in my previous post. :P

They're not traitors to the Imperium. However, the Fallen weren't exactly loyal. Since Taramant, Belicarius and Lahdemor are all Fallen, they're sort-of traitors. Although personally loyal, they have betrayed the Dark Angels (though not from their perspective).

See?

Edited by Octavulg, 12 August 2008 - 10:51 PM.

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#11
Swordlord

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Er...no.

You've read the whole thing? And can't work out their relationship to the Dark Angels?

EDIT: Having realized that I just restated their relationship to the DA in my previous post. :tu:

They're not traitors to the Imperium. However, the Fallen weren't exactly loyal. Since Taramant, Belicarius and Lahdemor are all Fallen, they're sort-of traitors. Although personally loyal, they have betrayed the Dark Angels (though not from their perspective).

See?


No, the link to the DA was clear. Or, in actuality, loyalty to the Angels of Absolution. I guess I failed to correlate the sidebar action with the Origins. Am I correct in surmising that Taramant, Belicarius and Lahdemor are the last surviving Astartes of a coups aboard the AofA Heart of Caliban, and that they, now 'traitor' to the AofA (aka: Fallen), then continued on their original mission to train what would become the Ice Lords? And, that there were no 'renegade pirates' that ambushed the ship & cadre?

If that's the case, the reason I was having difficulty is because there is no solid link from the sidebar to the Origins section -- no good clue. As was pointed out to me during my recent first DIY trials, if someone reads your IA for the first time, and doesn't get it, will they really read it two or more times, or give it up as indecipherable? My suggestion is simple. The side bar mentions the Trabizilia system as the region of space where the sidebar action occured. You could mention that alone in the beginning of your Origins as the place where the 'renegade pirates' ambushed the strike vessel. That would be a simple, effective clue.

The other thing that niggles at me is the schism within the chapter between the Knights and the Wolves. Do you really think a Chapter Master of the Space Marines - who willingly betrayed the trust of the brethren of his original chapter with blade and bolter - would allow such betrayal in his own chapter to exist, let alone continue to sow the seeds of dissent? And even if he was weak enough that he did, how long before those very same traitorous brethren did to him what he did to his own aboard the Heart of Caliban? IMHO, he'd have filled them with bolt-holes rather than stripped them of rank. :drool:

The Ice Lords are Fallen. You even say this in the previous reply. Regardless of anything else, regardless of Taramant's motives or desires, that whole chapter is a target for any Dark Angel or DA successor out there. They would also be marked as Excommunicate Traitorus by the Imperium (if the DA didn't manage to hide yet another Fallen issue under their robes). I'm not saying this is a bad plot, but I think it needs to be addressed more fully.

I think it has great beginnings and even more potential, but there are clarity issues that my old and dessicating brain didn't wrap around easily. Cheers!


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#12
Octavulg

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No, the link to the DA was clear. Or, in actuality, loyalty to the Angels of Absolution. I guess I failed to correlate the sidebar action with the Origins. Am I correct in surmising that Taramant, Belicarius and Lahdemor are the last surviving Astartes of a coups aboard the AofA Heart of Caliban, and that they, now 'traitor' to the AofA (aka: Fallen), then continued on their original mission to train what would become the Ice Lords? And, that there were no 'renegade pirates' that ambushed the ship & cadre?


OK, sidebar is moving to next to the Origins, and I'm throwing Caliban back in.

They're Fallen. Old school Fallen. Walked with Luther and Jonson Fallen. Taramant, at least, is bitter over the destruction of Caliban - he sees it as a complete betrayal of everything Jonson swore to protect. His association with that taints him as well. So now he's off trying to redeem himself (he's convinced Lahdemor and Belicarius to come along for the ride). Hence the little ride through the Warp.

Revised the sidebar slightly, and moved it up to make things clearer. Also added the reference to the Heart of Caliban. Better?

The other thing that niggles at me is the schism within the chapter between the Knights and the Wolves. Do you really think a Chapter Master of the Space Marines - who willingly betrayed the trust of the brethren of his original chapter with blade and bolter - would allow such betrayal in his own chapter to exist, let alone continue to sow the seeds of dissent? And even if he was weak enough that he did, how long before those very same traitorous brethren did to him what he did to his own aboard the Heart of Caliban? IMHO, he'd have filled them with bolt-holes rather than stripped them of rank. devil.gif


While your interpretation is almost more interesting, I think I need to put the bit back in where he's horrified by the destruction of Caliban.

There's two reasons that (to my mind), he wouldn't. Firstly, such a war would almost certainly spill over and hurt the civilians. Secondly...that would make him like Jonson - slaughtering those who disagreed with him because of his personal pride. And that's not something he's prepared to do.

The Ice Lords are Fallen. You even say this in the previous reply. Regardless of anything else, regardless of Taramant's motives or desires, that whole chapter is a target for any Dark Angel or DA successor out there. They would also be marked as Excommunicate Traitorus by the Imperium (if the DA didn't manage to hide yet another Fallen issue under their robes). I'm not saying this is a bad plot, but I think it needs to be addressed more fully.


It's not like they tell people!

It's a secret. Precisely three marines know - Lahdemor, Taramant, and Belicarius. Should one of them die, they might tell people - or they might not.

I think it has great beginnings and even more potential, but there are clarity issues that my old and dessicating brain didn't wrap around easily. Cheers!


No worries. You're quite useful, actually, since everyone here has seen them at least once before, and thus necessarily realize when things have sunk beyond "easily comprehensible". ^_^

I am thus quite interested in whether clarity has improved above.

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#13
Swordlord

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I have a question regarding your timeline.

He remembers duelling with two of his former brethren, Belicarius and Lahdemor. Once he had called them friend, and they had sparred in the training yard of the monastery. Now they spat curses at each other as their feet slipped across the nearly-molten surface of Caliban

The battle between Jonson and Luther on Caliban occured during/around the time of the Horus Heresy, didn't it? If I'm not totally bonkers, then how are your 3 antagonists brethren of the Angels of Absolution, a Second Founding chapter, as in below?

The Ice Lords suffered a blow early in their history, when their chapter training cadre was ambushed by renegade pirates as they travelled to join the new chapter. Though the enemy was repelled after fierce fighting, only three marines of the Angels of Absolution training cadre survived - Taramant, the senior Sergeant, Belicarius, a junior Chaplain, and Lahdemor, a Codicier.


798.M41 - The Trabizilia System Aboard the Angels of Absolution Rapid Strike Vessel Heart of Caliban

Is this a warp-induced time-jump? I know in the sidebar there is reference to entering the warp (as all of the Fallen did upon the destruction of Caliban), but even so, I fail to see how our intrepid three:
1) Became Angels of Absolution
and/or
2) managed to get aboard The Heart of Caliban in 798.M41
The fight occuring on Caliban makes these Marines 9500+ years old. Why would AofA brethren permit Fallen into their ranks?

I am uber confusticated. ;)

Edited by Swordlord, 13 August 2008 - 05:36 PM.



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#14
Octavulg

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The battle between Jonson and Luther on Caliban occured during/around the time of the Horus Heresy, didn't it? If I'm not totally bonkers, then how are your 3 antagonists brethren of the Angels of Absolution, a Second Founding chapter, as in below?


They're not. They're faking it, after wiping out the original training cadre (probably in some form of piratical ride, but the ways of the Fallen are mysterious). They're perfectly good Dark Angels, which is enough to pass for those who don't know any better.

That whole thing with the AoA is taking place in M41.

Is this a warp-induced time-jump? I know in the sidebar there is reference to entering the warp (as all of the Fallen did upon the destruction of Caliban), but even so, I fail to see how our intrepid three:
1) Became Angels of Absolution
and/or
2) managed to get aboard The Heart of Caliban in 798.M41
The fight occuring on Caliban makes these Marines 9500+ years old. Why would AofA brethren permit Fallen into their ranks?


They wouldn't, and didn't. The Ice Lords have never seen an Angel of Absolution (and never will if Taramant and Co. have anything to say about it).

The most logical explanation would be that the AoA actually did encounter a pirate fleet - and that the pirates boarded and won. Alternately, perhaps Taramant & Co. acquired enough information about the modern DA to work out the whole 'Fallen' thing - then used that to lure the AoA into a trap. Maybe the AoA training cadre found them out of sheer coincidence, and decided to try and wipe them out on their own. Hell, maybe the warp brought them out on the AoA ship itself. Perhaps they somehow stowed away on the ship, and struck when the time was right.

It is a great mystery. One that I am probably ill-equipped to explain, and which is probably worthy of a story in its own right.

The sidebar has been slightly edited again, hopefully increasing the clarity.

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#15
Swordlord

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The most logical explanation would be that the AoA actually did encounter a pirate fleet - and that the pirates boarded and won. Alternately, perhaps Taramant & Co. acquired enough information about the modern DA to work out the whole 'Fallen' thing - then used that to lure the AoA into a trap. Maybe the AoA training cadre found them out of sheer coincidence, and decided to try and wipe them out on their own. Hell, maybe the warp brought them out on the AoA ship itself. Perhaps they somehow stowed away on the ship, and struck when the time was right.

It is a great mystery. One that I am probably ill-equipped to explain, and which is probably worthy of a story in its own right.

Ah, you see, I was confused because in your first major paragraph you clearly state (in RED below):

The Ice Lords suffered a blow early in their history, when their chapter training cadre was ambushed by renegade pirates as they travelled to join the new chapter. Though the enemy was repelled after fierce fighting, only three marines of the Angels of Absolution training cadre survived - Taramant, the senior Sergeant, Belicarius, a junior Chaplain, and Lahdemor, a Codicier. The three related their harrowing tale when they arrived, and their shocked charges swore that they would redouble their efforts at training, to honor their fallen tutors. Their vessel, The Heart of Caliban, was ceremonially rededicated to the service of the Ice Lords, and remains today as a proud part of the chapter fleet.

So you see, I naturally surmised they were Angels of Absolution, which is why I never thought Taramant, Belicarius or Lahdemor to be anything else. And if this is an Index Astartes, rather than a Space Marine mystery story, then I'm just plain lost as to where these fellows stand. Fallen? Wildly astray Unforgiven? Renegade space marine pirates posing as AofA cadre to lure the Ice Lords away from their Emperor-sworn duty?

Mystery, indeed! B) :lol: :huh: :P


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#16
Octavulg

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So you see, I naturally surmised they were Angels of Absolution, which is why I never thought Taramant, Belicarius or Lahdemor to be anything else.


Understandable. Does the sidebar help prompt thinking of them in some other light?

The problem, you see, is that if I take out the reference to the AoA, you get confusion on the other direction - people wonder why they're shooting Angels of Absolution when this is about the Ice Lords.

And if this is an Index Astartes, rather than a Space Marine mystery story, then I'm just plain lost as to where these fellows stand. Fallen? Wildly astray Unforgiven? Renegade space marine pirates posing as AofA cadre to lure the Ice Lords away from their Emperor-sworn duty?


Somewhere between A and C. Depends on what you would see a Space Marine chapter's duty as. They see it as bringing the marines closer to their duty, and who are we to argue?

Mystery, indeed! teehee.gif laugh.gif teehee.gif tongue.gif


True. Tell me, with the sidebar in its new, somewhat clarified form, and its new position, are things somewhat clearer? Failing that, what could make it clearer to you?

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#17
Telveryon

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Excellent article as always Octavulg! But I must confess I liked the previous version better, in my humble opinion it wasn't too idea heavy.

Now that you brought the civil war issue as the main theme of the chapter a not so minor thing slapped me as being not up to your standards, namely the reason why Thelemacus sees the Ice Lords' close relations with the commoners as a weakness.

Firstly the fall of Falconscott doesn't seem as much of a divine punishment since most of the city was intact, while definitely a disaster it's not something jarring enough to lead to a change in mentality is something as rigid as a chapter.

Secondly, Space Marines are humanity's defenders, your average defender's job is to ensure the survival of his charge. To refuse to defend someone that can't fend for its self defeats the very purpose of being a defender. And that pretty much what Thelemacus is saying...

Thirdly, close connection to the population has proven not to be weakness in the past. The Salamanders are much closer to their people then the Ice Lords and yet the seem to be doing very well for themselves even after 10k years.

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#18
Octavulg

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Excellent article as always Octavulg! But I must confess I liked the previous version better, in my humble opinion it wasn't too idea heavy.


I had something of an affection for it as well, but I find myself liking both versions. On the one hand, the other version had some neat bits this one doesn't. On the other, I think this one's neat bits are polished more highly.

I retain a copy of both, fortunately, so I can always change my mind.

Now that you brought the civil war issue as the main theme of the chapter a not so minor thing slapped me as being not up to your standards, namely the reason why Thelemacus sees the Ice Lords' close relations with the commoners as a weakness.

Firstly the fall of Falconscott doesn't seem as much of a divine punishment since most of the city was intact, while definitely a disaster it's not something jarring enough to lead to a change in mentality is something as rigid as a chapter.


True. More catastrophe, perhaps?

Secondly, Space Marines are humanity's defenders, your average defender's job is to ensure the survival of his charge. To refuse to defend someone that can't fend for its self defeats the very purpose of being a defender. And that pretty much what Thelemacus is saying...


Very true. Perhaps if he argues that the people must learn to stand on their own, while the marines should focus on attacking outward threats more boldly - rather than attempting to promote relationship with the people, both the people and the marines would be stronger apart.

Still just as bad from Taramant's point of view, but a little less evil, yes?

Thirdly, close connection to the population has proven not to be weakness in the past. The Salamanders are much closer to their people then the Ice Lords and yet the seem to be doing very well for themselves even after 10k years.


Precedent has no place in the Imperium. Besides, like all young hotheads, Telemachus knows better. :D Besides the whole "other chapters do it" argument doesn't seem one likely to fly with marines, who seem the types to be certain their way is the best.

Note: added more catastrophe and hopefully made Telemachus less evil and more misguided (or even right).

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#19
Heru

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You Terminator Painter coding has messed up.
My Chapters (Blue) & Traitors (Red):
gallery_20677_1567_12051.jpg
1st Row: Falcon Knights, Darkwatch, Silver Scorpions, Phantom Hounds, Onyx Warlords, Wicked Gods, Wolves of Horus, The Blight, The Bloodborn
2nd Row: Iron Raptors, Immortals, Imperial Monarchs, Starbreakers, The Shadow Kings, The Fallen Lords, Black Wasps, Black Oracles, Dream Eaters

#20
Octavulg

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Fixed now. Thank you. ;)

Proud author of the Ice Lords, the Bronze Prophets, the Stone Hearts, the Steel Dogs and the The Marines Tenebric.

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#21
Telveryon

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Note: added more catastrophe and hopefully made Telemachus less evil and more misguided (or even right).

A definite improvement. It no longer feels like your average Space Marines master would simply put a bolt shell through Thelemacus' head for having funny ideas.

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#22
Sigismund Himself

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The very best minds who were willing to disconnect themselves from their machinery and undertake the slightly dangerous journey, as opposed to staying on the warm and cozy forge world with their techno-concubines.

It lacks the same ring, no?

I meant changing it to something like "some of the best" or "a number of high ranking" instead of the best. Not quite as extreme :)

How does it not fit? Style, content, something else?


I guess it just kind of kills the subtlety of the article. Not that there appears to be any other way to tell reader about them being Fallen. Maybe more hints, including things like the Dark Angels contacting them regarding hunting the Fallen but Taramant refusing to meet and refusing to help, supposedly because of the catastrophe that needs to be under control but is pretty much already. Did you really want to go unsubtle with the story or maybe try dropping more hints about them being Fallen?

[Picture of Chapter Banner]

Soon to come?

The Ice Lords are a proud chapter, for all their inexperience. Formed as part of the 26th Founding, the Ice Lords have had a history spotted with misfortune, but equally blessed with opportunity.

Bit short for the first sentence.

Though the enemy was repelled after fierce fighting, only three marines of the Angels of Absolution training cadre survived - Taramant, the senior Sergeant, Belicarius, a junior Chaplain, and Lahdemor, a Codicier.

Kinda odd that the pirates managed to kill about 27 marines. Maybe mention stuff like being skeleton crewed and a large pirate fleet. Or an emergency warp jump, emergency venting of air etc. More details to explain the apparent loss of 27ish marines (though we know it is 30). Or have the 'new' commanders embellish it to the recruits. That's what ends up in the article, anyway.


Of course I do not know why we are falling! Do you think I am just waiting for some suitably dramatic moment to save us all? - Techmarine Janos

Seems a bit flippant for a marine in the middle of a crisis.

It took months to clear most of the creatures from the tunnels...

Preferred weeks myself. Plus you also mention 2 full weeks later in the paragraph below it (or there abouts). Maybe it would be a bit more calamitous if another city crashed? Like the biggest one?

...where they discovered a previously unthought-of realm of vaulting ice galleries...

Unthought-of? Unknown might work better.


It's still rather heavy on just these events. The geneseed (how do families view sons becoming marines), organization (why don't they have Deathwing/Ravenwing arrangement? We know why but an in-universe reason is needed too) need filling out a bit and there's a little duplication with the Wolves from the History to the Beliefs.

#23
Octavulg

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I meant changing it to something like "some of the best" or "a number of high ranking" instead of the best. Not quite as extreme msn-wink.gif


You can tell they're the finest because they came to look at Falconscott. ;)

I guess it just kind of kills the subtlety of the article. Not that there appears to be any other way to tell reader about them being Fallen. Maybe more hints, including things like the Dark Angels contacting them regarding hunting the Fallen but Taramant refusing to meet and refusing to help, supposedly because of the catastrophe that needs to be under control but is pretty much already.


Unfortunately, that'd require shrouding the whole event in mystery, or blatantly explaining that they were asking about the Fallen. Which would be kind of weird - telling them about somebody else's Fallen in order to hint at my own, if you follow. Plus, why would they ask some schmuck who wasn't even part of the Inner Circle about the Fallen?

I could also go with simply not telling the reader, but that seems to make people wonder what the hell is going on and why they're not getting it. To a certain extent, I think telling them up front is best - then they feel clever if they get all the small hints that are there.

And really, how do you hint at it? Training cadre looks like it might have been subverted - but if you come flat out and say it in any way, people either think Chaos or are forced to wonder why the Inquisition has yet to intervene. Taramant seems to dislike the Primarch and has a big thing for chapter civilians - but you can't come flat out and say that they hate their Primarchs, especially since the marines probably wouldn't be blatant about it. There's no Deathwing or Ravenwing, even though they're DA - but that's easily explained by the training cadre stuff. And that's pretty much all that makes the DA the DA. And really, what defining characteristics do the Fallen have? None. They're individuals. And saying Taramant was all unique and cool and free-thinking just makes it seem like I'm trying to make him awesomer-than-thou while having him be a marine, when really he's not a normal marine at all.

In short, I appear to be left with the choice of nobody getting it/risking confusion or just telling people. And just telling people's got a lot more pluses than the other option.

Did you really want to go unsubtle with the story or maybe try dropping more hints about them being Fallen?


It is an incredible load off my mind. It also gives me the luxury of being able to at least briefly explain why Taramant feels as he does. And I like the little devil, for some reason. The problem is, since the Fallen are already a secret, I'd be kind of trying to do a secret-within-a-secret. And secrets aren't my strength, so secrets-within-secrets just drive me insane with worry that it's either too subtle or not subtle enough.

Plus, it's in the finest traditions of IAs to shove well-hidden chapter secrets under the nose of the reader. ;)

Soon to come?


I'll probably start thinking more about the Chapter Banner once I get the damn Standard Bearer together (his standard keeps falling out of his hand. Damn metal Terminators). My IA writing is often rather driven by the actual army. ;)

Bit short for the first sentence.


Two sentences. ;)

A little more might be good, tis true. I have merged it in with the opening paragraph, so it is now just...well, the first paragraph. Hopefully that helps some. Added the usual preamble type thing that accompanies an IA.

Kinda odd that the pirates managed to kill about 27 marines. Maybe mention stuff like being skeleton crewed and a large pirate fleet. Or an emergency warp jump, emergency venting of air etc. More details to explain the apparent loss of 27ish marines (though we know it is 30). Or have the 'new' commanders embellish it to the recruits. That's what ends up in the article, anyway.


Right...giant vile heretics. Or venting plasma. Whatever. Amended.

Enormous, they were, with chainaxes the length of your...they gutted the...look at the bones! ;)

Seems a bit flippant for a marine in the middle of a crisis.


It's definitely the weakest of the lines. It has been replaced with something better.

Preferred weeks myself. Plus you also mention 2 full weeks later in the paragraph below it (or there abouts).


The patchwork nature of the IA is rearing its head. It should be weeks. It will be weeks. It is weeks. It has always been weeks.

Maybe it would be a bit more calamitous if another city crashed? Like the biggest one?


Do you mean instead of or in addition to Falconscott?

If instead of...well, perhaps it falls because the marines are there (the whole Fallen Angel bad-luck thing). It's also a lot more personal to the chapter to have their home fall apart rather than one of the other cities.

If in addition to...I thought you said too much was going on? ;)

Unthought-of? Unknown might work better.


Unthought-of hopefully carries connotations of "nobody thought anything was down there or even predicted it" rather than "nobody knew, but the possibility was there".

It's still rather heavy on just these events.


But didn't you see the new sidebars? ;)

The geneseed (how do families view sons becoming marines),


Good! Yes! Let's do that!

organization (why don't they have Deathwing/Ravenwing arrangement? We know why but an in-universe reason is needed too)


Is it? Taramant would be unlikely to know of it, as would the junior Ice Lords. The only people who would really see it as truly odd would likely be other Dark Angels, who would not ask because they'd figure he probably hadn't been introduced to the mysteries, and thus was not to be trusted.

I mean, ten thousand years, and somebody goes and spills the beans about the Fallen because he's curious about someone else's chapter structure? That'd go over well with the Inner Circle.

need filling out a bit and there's a little duplication with the Wolves from the History to the Beliefs.


I'll pare down one or the other.

* * *

Criticism has either been acted upon or counter-criticized.

Thanks for the further comments and advice (and thank you as well, Telveryon). It is most appreciated, as always. ;)

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#24
Sigismund Himself

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Plus, why would they ask some schmuck who wasn't even part of the Inner Circle about the Fallen?

He should be part of the Inner Circle as it were. Remember now that all Dark Angels successors are Unforgiven and know about the Fallen to one degree or another. So you would presume that since he's founding a new chapter from DA stock, he would be the one with knowledge about the Fallen to pass on. Or the Angels of Absoloution would think so.

And just telling people's got a lot more pluses than the other option.

Maybe I'm just contrary <_<

Do you mean instead of or in addition to Falconscott?

If instead of...well, perhaps it falls because the marines are there (the whole Fallen Angel bad-luck thing). It's also a lot more personal to the chapter to have their home fall apart rather than one of the other cities.

If in addition to...I thought you said too much was going on? :o

In addition. Wouldn't be too much to my mind.

Unthought-of hopefully carries connotations of "nobody thought anything was down there or even predicted it" rather than "nobody knew, but the possibility was there".

Maybe, but to me it just reads weirdly. Dr Sig suggests a second diagnosis.

But didn't you see the new sidebars? :D

Surely they could be mentioned in Combat Doctrine as well or instead of?

#25
Octavulg

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He should be part of the Inner Circle as it were. Remember now that all Dark Angels successors are Unforgiven and know about the Fallen to one degree or another. So you would presume that since he's founding a new chapter from DA stock, he would be the one with knowledge about the Fallen to pass on. Or the Angels of Absoloution would think so.


Not necessarily. I doubt the entire training cadre are members of the Inner Circle, and it is conceivable that he could be a junior member who knows nothing of the Fallen. His failure to conform the Chapter to the DA standard would be even more proof of this (to an outside observer), and the only chapter which would know if he did for sure would be the AoA. Especially if he doesn't drop terms like 'Unforgiven'. Which the IA now says he doesn't (;)).

In addition. Wouldn't be too much to my mind.


Hmm...could do. If they all start dropping out of the sky at once, however, it might imply some common cause. Which I would feel obligated to have a reason for.

That, and one suspicious crash feels like enough. Two feels like too many, you know?

Maybe, but to me it just reads weirdly. Dr Sig suggests a second diagnosis.


Who am I to argue with the first Emperor's Champion? Changed.

Surely they could be mentioned in Combat Doctrine as well or instead of?


Most exciting battles and stuff end up in sidebars in official IAs (with some few mentions in the combat doctrine). And right now I don't have any particular ideas for battles for the Ice Lords. Eventually, a battle will be interesting enough to be included. I look forward to it.

Interesting combat anecdotes will come. Be patient. :P

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"Wake up. Pray. Train. Pray. Drop screaming through the atmosphere from low orbit into a raging battlefield, and take the fight to enemies that may outnumber us by as little as three to one. Do battle with the most horrific enemies of mankind imaginable and charge into lines of weapons that could shred a tank into ribbons. Afterward, lunch, time permitting." - Marshal Arturas, 15/05/08






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