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IA: Ice Lords

Octavulg DA Loyalist IA 26th Founding

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#51
Ecritter

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Okay, have to admit I just finished reading your IA ... have a couple problems with it.

Firstly, why is there even a settlement on the planet .... there is no ore, no trade route mentioned, no reason at all. It really makes no sense at all, and you do mention that in the Homeworld section ... but I don't think even that goes far enough.

And Lastly, the end of the Knights and Wolves section makes no sense at all. One captain started a mutiny against the Chapter Master and he let him live, just stripped him of rank .... but he remains in the chapter I assume. Also, you continue to mention the Wolf movement ... is the Chapter Master blind or just out of his mind for not putting this down completely? As I said, it makes no sense.

#52
Octavulg

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Firstly, why is there even a settlement on the planet .... there is no ore, no trade route mentioned, no reason at all. It really makes no sense at all, and you do mention that in the Homeworld section ... but I don't think even that goes far enough.


Why is there a settlement on Baal? On Necromunda? On Armageddon? On Plains World? On any planet other than Terra?

Because at some point, people wanted to live there. The reason doesn't have to be extant in the current era. Maybe it used to be nicer, and they built flying cities when it got colder. Maybe the people wanted isolation. Maybe it's the remains of a Dark Age of Technology base for extra-galactic exploration.

Whatever the reason - it was millennia ago, and it's quite likely no one remembers or cares. They're there now.

And Lastly, the end of the Knights and Wolves section makes no sense at all. One captain started a mutiny against the Chapter Master and he let him live, just stripped him of rank .... but he remains in the chapter I assume.


Yup.

It stems from a part of why Taramant hates Jonson (a point I may have glossed over too much) - Jonson saw betrayal of him, personally, as betrayal of the chapter, punishable by death, and was willing to destroy Caliban to exercise that punishment. Taramant is unwilling to risk destroying the planet to punish people for, more or less, disagreeing with him on a matter of doctrine - that'd make him little better than Jonson. Executing Telemachus is risky (what if his followers rebel?) and more than the crime warrants, in any case (a Captain disagreed with a Chapter Master after receiving what he believed to be a sign from the Emperor - this is not exactly treason).

To be quite honest, Taramant's a little soft for a Space Marine. This is a relative thing, of course, and he's certainly not soft on everything, but still - not what he once was. Executing members of his chapter is not something he's prepared to do on things he's not entirely comfortable with - and just about anything that would relate to philosophy, honor, etc is something he's a little uncertain about now.

Remember, from a certain point of view, Taramant is a traitor two/three times over - first he betrayed the Dark Angels and Caliban by attacking it. Secondly he betrayed Jonson by going over to the Fallen (after being dragged through the Warp). And finally he betrayed both visions of the Dark Angels by abandoning the chapter to form a new one. He doesn't think he's a traitor, but the possibility may cross his mind, and make him uncertain about things.

(EDIT: Having written the above, he will be Taramant, son of Trias, in the future. It's too perfect not to).

Also, you continue to mention the Wolf movement ... is the Chapter Master blind or just out of his mind for not putting this down completely? As I said, it makes no sense.


Well, considering the last time there was a civil war in an organization he was a part of it ended up destroying his home world, his honor and a lot of his friends/comrades, I'd say a little willful blindness is not unwarranted. :)

Remember - he's trying to put them down by the simple expedient of making sure no one else ever thinks like they do again. The rest of them can continue with the chapter - and die there, which should balance out their philosophy. At which point they will become a memory and a brief note in the chapter history. Far safer than trying to wipe them out, and far less like what Jonson did - both points which would endear such a plan to Taramant.

Edited by Octavulg, 26 May 2009 - 04:38 AM.

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#53
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I"ll have to read it again, cause I don't recall the Lion stuff in the fluff.

Also, what the Chapter Master did may need to be spelled out a bit more, I ended up completely lost as to how he actually dealt with the Wolf movement in general.

Edit: Okay reread, have to admit I didn't read the sidebars that's why I missed the Lion problem.

Edited by Ecritter, 26 May 2009 - 05:11 AM.


#54
Octavulg

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But you still feel the way the Wolves were/are being dealt with needs more explanation (or at least better explanation)?

Proud author of the Ice Lords, the Bronze Prophets, the Stone Hearts, the Steel Dogs and the The Marines Tenebric.

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#55
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Yes, cause the current way they're dealt with leaves me a little lost.

#56
Octavulg

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This is a morning problem, rather than a right now problem. It will thus be dealt with then.

In anticipation of this, I will go to bed, so that morning can come sooner (subjectively).

Proud author of the Ice Lords, the Bronze Prophets, the Stone Hearts, the Steel Dogs and the The Marines Tenebric.

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#57
Ecritter

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I'm sure you'll work something out.

#58
Octavulg

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Problems theoretically fixed.

Anyone got further thoughts?

Proud author of the Ice Lords, the Bronze Prophets, the Stone Hearts, the Steel Dogs and the The Marines Tenebric.

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"Wake up. Pray. Train. Pray. Drop screaming through the atmosphere from low orbit into a raging battlefield, and take the fight to enemies that may outnumber us by as little as three to one. Do battle with the most horrific enemies of mankind imaginable and charge into lines of weapons that could shred a tank into ribbons. Afterward, lunch, time permitting." - Marshal Arturas, 15/05/08


#59
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Taramant's wrath was terrible to behold. Telemachus and his highest-ranking supporters were stripped of their rank, and others appointed in their place - others loyal as much to Taramant's precepts as to the chapter, who the Wolves bitterly refer to as 'Knights'. Belicarius and Lahdemor supported Taramant wholeheartedly, as did the majority of the Chapter brethren. Their influence within the chapter greatly eroded, the Wolves subsided, and their grumbling slowly quieted, at least for a time.


This is still a bit confusing there was no terrible wrath. How about.

"Taramant's response was quick and decisive. Telemachus and his ranking supporters were stripped of their rank. Others, loyal as much to Taramant's precepts as to the chapter, were appointed in their place. Those within Telemachus' "Wolves" movement bitterly referred to the new officers as Knights. Belicarius and Lahdemor supported Taramant wholeheartedly, as did the majority of the chapter brethern. Having lost influence within the chapter, the "Wolves" movement subsided and their grumblings slowly quieted ... at least for a time."

Edited by Ecritter, 27 May 2009 - 02:19 AM.


#60
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Updated to the following:

Taramant disagreed, and his wrath was terrible to behold. After a day, he rebuked Telemachus in a public Conclave of the Chapter, calling the Captain dishonorable and little better than a traitor. Telemachus had confused personal glory with honor, Taramant said, and deserved neither. Belicarius and Lahdemor supported Taramant wholeheartedly, as did the majority of the Chapter brethren, who were nicknamed 'Knights' by the jeering Wolves. Further incensed by the behavior of the Wolves, Taramant stripped Telemachus and his supporters of their rank in the Chapter and of their place in the Chapter's Roll of Honor, declaring that they had abandoned their honor, and must earn it back or be forgotten. Humiliated, beset by those they referred to as 'Knights', and with their influence within the chapter greatly eroded, the Wolves subsided, at least for a time.

I will likely take out 'after a day', but I'm sick of pushing the edit button at the moment. :lol:

EDIT: I'll also likely take out "they referred to as" and replace it with 'the'.

Edited by Octavulg, 27 May 2009 - 02:58 AM.

Proud author of the Ice Lords, the Bronze Prophets, the Stone Hearts, the Steel Dogs and the The Marines Tenebric.

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#61
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We just have different views of a "terrible wrath". To me having them executed, their head placed on pikes before the Fortress Monestary, their bodies thrown out of the city onto the ice fields for the beasts to devour. Now that would come close to "terrible wrath", but is still tame for me.

Though I do prefer the new wording.

Edited by Ecritter, 27 May 2009 - 03:19 AM.


#62
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That'd be terrible consequences.

Terrible wrath is just him being so angry it's kinda scary. :P

Proud author of the Ice Lords, the Bronze Prophets, the Stone Hearts, the Steel Dogs and the The Marines Tenebric.

The Octaguide - Your very long guide to very long IAs

Help me update the Big Liber Timeline!

"Wake up. Pray. Train. Pray. Drop screaming through the atmosphere from low orbit into a raging battlefield, and take the fight to enemies that may outnumber us by as little as three to one. Do battle with the most horrific enemies of mankind imaginable and charge into lines of weapons that could shred a tank into ribbons. Afterward, lunch, time permitting." - Marshal Arturas, 15/05/08


#63
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There are some word choices, like at the end, that you might read over. They are not good.

I like that it stopped being about something depressing, like paying lots of money for minis that you didn't love too much anymore and needed to extract some wretched mote of satisfaction from; and then started being about something exciting like corporate governance. The first editions of this were really disappointing. Actually, I guess it is really about loyalty and principles and the true meaning of brotherhood

but you knew that.

Do you have accounts anywhere else? I'd like to read about your other... things.

#64
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Hello mate! Just saw this here and thought i’d offer my input again and on the whole I don’t really have very much to say in terms of criticism! This version is IMHO by far the best so far, and I particularly like the sidebars, really show the Ice Lords M.O. off nicely.

First thing that struck me though was the change to the colour scheme. Looks good and doesn’t really matter to the IA in itself but you’ve piqued my curiosity – why the red trim, skull, etc?
Does it designate Tactical squads? If so, what colours show Devs, Assault, Vets, etc?
(I always think it would be quite cool to have an Insignium Astartes section at the end of DIY IA’s, but that’s besides the point!)



Hmmm, just re-reading and something struck me.

It had taken two full weeks to cleanse the undercity


In Taramant's absence, conflict had arisen.


Seems a bit odd to me that within the space of only 2 weeks during which Taramant hasn’t actually even left the planet that all this happens? Is he not in contact with the rest of the Chapter? It would have to be something pretty special to cut him off completely, wouldn't it?

Also:

All the Companies near Falconscott had returned to help with the catastrophe


Telemachus was the newest of the captains


Wouldn’t one of the more experienced (and loyal to Taramant) Captains who must have been there have just told him to shut up? :P Also, his punishment seems a bit severe for just speaking out of turn?




What I’m really saying is that it doesn’t seem like a long enough period of time under the wolves viewpoint to have the impact that you’ve suggested on both the Chapter and the general populace as well.

As I think I said last time round, it doesn’t really matter where Taramant goes, just that he does, and comes back to his personal nightmare! I just think it needs more time and distance to develop that situation.



With all of that in mind, perhaps one idea would be to lose the ice monsters (heresy I know, but bear with me here!) and expand on the 2nd sidebar idea (excellent work, by the way. Did I already say that?) and send Taramant far away with most of the Chapter fighting the genestealers through space and hives, etc (see, I’m not trying to take away your beloved Space Hulk! ;) ), leaving Telemachus and his 6th Co. guarding the Homeworld.
That way Taramant goes away for longer (although perhaps cut down the 23 years mentioned in the side bar!) giving a proper amount of time for Telemachus to have a negative effect on his brethren and the common people?

You could even have the crashing of the city occur while Taramant is gone and Telemachus is in charge. Actually, this could go towards explaining (very subtly) why only one city has fallen, not the others, and why Taramant punishes Telemachus so severely…

Anyway, I’m just brainstorming. As usual: feel free to ignore me, it’s an excellent piece of work regardless and this:

I think they've come a long way from a hatred of Jonson and a need to explain all the Wolf Guard Terminators and Deathwing Terminators in my army. And, of course, the desire to have more Terminators in general.


…just shows us all that idea’s that don’t necessarily have the best start fluff-wise can be made to work if they are well enough written and explained.

Cheers

Lysimachus


edit: it's nice to finally see some Ice Lords painted and i like the old school termi Captain as a Sgt!

Edited by Strike Captain Lysimachus, 27 May 2009 - 01:29 PM.


#65
Octavulg

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There are some word choices, like at the end, that you might read over. They are not good.


An example is always welcome.

I like that it stopped being about something depressing, like paying lots of money for minis that you didn't love too much anymore and needed to extract some wretched mote of satisfaction from; and then started being about something exciting like corporate governance.


It did? Oh.

I always loved the minis. The game, OTOH...;)

The first editions of this were really disappointing. Actually, I guess it is really about loyalty and principles and the true meaning of brotherhood

but you knew that.


Indeed. :D Much like Taramant, I decided what was important and took the steps necessary to preserve and perpetuate that. The IA is a metaphor for itself.

That's...awesome and deliciously recursive.

Do you have accounts anywhere else? I'd like to read about your other... things.


None to which writing comes attached. Theoretically, I will eventually write some fluff for my two Heavy Gear regiments, and I've got a homebrew sci-fi universe that I toy with every so often, but those are miles away on the drawing board (and the sci-fi universe needs some polish. It's basically an excuse to use the bewildering array of miniatures I have that aren't 40K-related, as well as 40K minis. It needs more thought and a bit more love.).

And there's the other three chapters, as well, though they need a lot o' polish.

* * *

Hello mate! Just saw this here and thought i’d offer my input again and on the whole I don’t really have very much to say in terms of criticism! This version is IMHO by far the best so far, and I particularly like the sidebars, really show the Ice Lords M.O. off nicely.


Thank you. :)

First thing that struck me though was the change to the colour scheme. Looks good and doesn’t really matter to the IA in itself but you’ve piqued my curiosity – why the red trim, skull, etc?


That's how I tell my Terminator Squads apart, and it seems a logical continuation for my tactical squads. All the royal blue on the Terminator shown changes color depending on his squad.

Does it designate Tactical squads? If so, what colours show Devs, Assault, Vets, etc?


The way I figure it, they'd use the standard codex markings for type of squad, and each squad in the company will be assigned a color. There can be some overlap, if necessary.

So the First Company has:

Terminator Red
Terminator Blue
Terminator Yellow
Terminator Green
Tactical Red
Tactical Blue
Tactical Yellow
Assault Blue
Assault Yellow
Devastator Green
Devastatory Blue
And a bunch of color-coded Land Speeders.

I'm going to be painting the Epic version of the 1st Company this week (hopefully), and should really remember this...

It gives me a chance to paint a few other colors, while still being cohesive.

(I always think it would be quite cool to have an Insignium Astartes section at the end of DIY IA’s, but that’s besides the point!)


There is a pronounced temptation to expand the Ice Lords into a Codex. But I think that's a long-term goal.

Seems a bit odd to me that within the space of only 2 weeks during which Taramant hasn’t actually even left the planet that all this happens? Is he not in contact with the rest of the Chapter? It would have to be something pretty special to cut him off completely, wouldn't it?


IIRC, in one of the previous drafts, communications failed once they left the undercity for the tunnels proper.

That said, interrupting your Chapter Master when he's fighting for his life seems a bit likely to get him hurt. ;)

Wouldn’t one of the more experienced (and loyal to Taramant) Captains who must have been there have just told him to shut up? tongue.gif


I'd assume he'd been ignoring them. You know what young people are like. ;)

Also, his punishment seems a bit severe for just speaking out of turn?


I love how the previous issue brought up by someone was that it didn't seem severe enough. ;)

IMO, it is too severe. Taramant's angry and incapable of being wholly objective about this sort of thing.

What I’m really saying is that it doesn’t seem like a long enough period of time under the wolves viewpoint to have the impact that you’ve suggested on both the Chapter and the general populace as well.


I'd been assuming that there was nascent dissatisfaction before any of this, it just hadn't been noticed.

With all of that in mind, perhaps one idea would be to lose the ice monsters (heresy I know, but bear with me here!) and expand on the 2nd sidebar idea (excellent work, by the way. Did I already say that?) and send Taramant far away with most of the Chapter fighting the genestealers through space and hives, etc (see, I’m not trying to take away your beloved Space Hulk! msn-wink.gif ), leaving Telemachus and his 6th Co. guarding the Homeworld.

That way Taramant goes away for longer (although perhaps cut down the 23 years mentioned in the side bar!) giving a proper amount of time for Telemachus to have a negative effect on his brethren and the common people?


This is very, very tempting. The problem is the amount of rewriting involved. Though it even gives delicious parallels with Caliban. I'm going to see if this works...

…just shows us all that idea’s that don’t necessarily have the best start fluff-wise can be made to work if they are well enough written and explained.


Well, I did have most, if not all, the ideas that are here now. I just had to drop a lot of them to make the other ones show.

edit: it's nice to finally see some Ice Lords painted and i like the old school termi Captain as a Sgt


They've been painted for ages now. I like the Sergeant as well, and am really wishing I'd given him a name. The Apothecary even has a name, and I'm still not done painting him! Those Captains are my favorite models (I've got three of 'em, which I think kinda shows you), and I haven't named the first one I painted. Tragic.

Possible revised text is below. Thoughts?

* * *

The Fall of the Fortress
Although I am not certain as to the cause, Sergeant, I think what may be far more important are the effects. - Techmarine Janos

The Ascendant Festival on Falconscott marks the longest day of the year. Even the ice which typically covers the tips of city spires melts, and the cities are suffused with warmth and laughter. All Space Marines present on the planet are dispatched throughout the cities, both to mingle with the population and to observe those who might make good candidates for the Chapter. Games of strength and skill are common, and bloodless aerial battles between young pilots an entertaining diversion for the crowds. Although ordinarily a happy time, the hundred-and-twenty-eighth Festival after the Chapter's arrival on their home world was marked by calamity.

As the revelers celebrated across the planet, the very streets of Falconscott began to shudder. The strength of the spasms threw grown men from their feet, and even the Space Marines were hard pressed to keep their balance. Clouds whisked by, and the wind grew to a howling shriek as the mighty city began to plunge toward the surface of the planet below.

Techmarines and officers raced into the bowels of the city, while the other marines attempted to contain the panic among the citizens. However, the arcane machinery which had confounded the best Techno-Magi of the Imperium would hardly give up its secrets to mere Techmarines, and the Marines remained ignorant of what might have caused the precipitous descent. Somewhere within the kilometers of tunnel and ductwork, some ancient piece of machinery must have finally given way, but there was no way for the Marines to determine what or where. They could only do their best to ensure that the city was not destroyed upon impact.

Fortunately for the Chapter, ancient backup systems were functional. As the city approached the surface, its rate of descent began to slow. However, impact was still inevitable, and the population was thrown into confusion and panic as millions of tons of metal impacted with the ancient ice of the planetary surface.

The buildings and the lower tunnels of Falconscott were breached in dozens of locations, driven deep into the ice. Some were crushed, along with their inhabitants. Some were cut off from the rest of the city, the people within left to slowly starve with no chance of rescue. The regular, coherent levels of the lower city were gone, replaced with a crazed metal-and-ice warren of tunnels, chasms and precipices, while the upper city was a twisted wreck, shattered ice and building intermingled to form a strange and confusing new world.

Master Taramant was gone from the city, fighting the last of the Genestealers from the hulk Vociferous Abomination. Captain Telemachus of the Sixth, the senior officer on planet, took control of the situation. He notified Taramant of what had happened and began to search for survivors in the undercity, leaving a few of his junior officers to organize the citizens above. Adaptation would be required of the people, for the city had been badly damaged by the crash, and many systems which had sustained the citizens for millennia no longer functioned.

Deep in the tunnels, the marines discovered something they had not expected. Foul, ravening beasts had apparently lurked beneath the surface of the planet, in a winding warren of unknown depth. The crash of the monastery had broken into these tunnels, and now the warrens and the lower levels of the city were hopelessly intermingled, and the unknown creatures spread throughout them.

The Marines withdrew, taking all those they could find, and carefully sealed all entrances to the lower levels, awaiting the return of their brothers from the other cities. Even so, their casualties were significant - the creatures below the city were fierce and numerous. Penned in the upper city by the horrors below, the Marines and their people were trapped, out of reach of the other garrisons on-planet, who possessed no ships capable of penetrating the howling winds on the surface.

The Knights and the Wolves
Your thoughts do not show us a new way, Telemachus. All they show is my failings as a teacher. - Taramant of the Ice Lords

By the time Master Taramant returned, with powerful Thunderhawks that could penetrate the winds below, conflict had arisen. In the months in which Telemachus and his men were isolated on the planet, they had grown embittered toward the people. Now they saw Taramant's beliefs in the role of the Chapter as flawed and weak, and believed they should free themselves from restrictive bonds with the people. To Telemachus, the fall of Falconscott was divine punishment from the Emperor, and when a mighty wolf had leapt from the driving snow into the city, slaying a half dozen of the citizens before being brought down itself, he had taken it as another sign.

As the weeks dragged by, more and more civilians were killed by the beasts, their strength and cunning allowing them to strike wherever the Marines were not. Civilian after civilian fell to their jaws, and as the cries of the people for aid grew more plaintive, Telemachus and his men came to admire the wolves for their power, and grew to despise the citizens for their weakness. These wolves had been unknown before, overlooked by unambitious Mechanicus genetors who feared the planet's harsh environment, but they soon became a common sight in the snow outside the city. They were great, hulking beasts, long of fang and powerful of limb, solitary and dangerous.

Telemachus and his supporters insisted that that was the way to true greatness for the Ice Lords. The Ice Lords should concern themselves with the Ice Lords, first and foremost. Consorting with the people of Falconscott hurt the people, for they could not become strong enough to stand on their own, and it hurt the Ice Lords, for they were weakened by the need to defend the people, instead of using all their might to strike against the enemies of man. Using less than their full strength was a betrayal of the Emperor, as was weakening his subjects by not allowing them to achieve strength on their own. Thus, said Telemachus, the best course of action for the Ice Lords was to leave Franklin's World and its people behind. Though the people would find it hard at first, it could only strengthen them in the long run. His supporters, who had christened themselves the Wolves, agreed.

Taramant did not, and his wrath was terrible to behold. He rebuked Telemachus in a public Conclave of the Chapter, calling the Captain dishonorable and little better than a traitor. Telemachus had confused personal glory with honor, Taramant said, and deserved neither. Belicarius and Lahdemor supported Taramant wholeheartedly, as did the majority of the Chapter brethren, who were nicknamed 'Knights' by the jeering Wolves. Further incensed by the behavior of the Wolves, Taramant stripped Telemachus and his supporters of their rank in the Chapter and of their place in the Chapter's Roll of Honor, declaring that they had abandoned their honor, and must earn it back or be forgotten. Humiliated, beset by the Knights, and with their influence within the chapter greatly eroded, the Wolves subsided, at least for a time.

* * *

I must say, it feels like a more natural progression and conclusion.

Edited by Octavulg, 27 May 2009 - 03:03 PM.

Proud author of the Ice Lords, the Bronze Prophets, the Stone Hearts, the Steel Dogs and the The Marines Tenebric.

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Help me update the Big Liber Timeline!

"Wake up. Pray. Train. Pray. Drop screaming through the atmosphere from low orbit into a raging battlefield, and take the fight to enemies that may outnumber us by as little as three to one. Do battle with the most horrific enemies of mankind imaginable and charge into lines of weapons that could shred a tank into ribbons. Afterward, lunch, time permitting." - Marshal Arturas, 15/05/08


#66
Apothete

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I'm completely skipping everyone else's comments and going on nothing but my own reading, just so that you can get the most unbiased impression that I can give. I figure that's the least I can do after the help you've given me on my thread.

Black were the first days of our history. But so are all days, until mankind is triumphant. - The Chronicle of the Ice Lords, III Canticle


This is nice and punchy right out of the gate, and a very, very nice nod to the grimdark.

Though the enemy marines were repelled after fierce fighting, the ferocity of the battle meant only three marines of the Angels of Absolution training cadre survived - Taramant, the senior Sergeant, Belicarius, a junior Chaplain, and Lahdemor, a Codicier.


I have a minor quibble with this sentence, mostly because you have "fierce" followed very soon after by "ferocity."

Out of curiosity, what happened to the progenoids and geneseed of the fallen Angels of Absolution? Did they go on to become a part of the heritage of the Ice Lords, were they returned to the parent Chapter, did circumstance not allow their recovery, or did something even stranger happen?

"For duty and honor are cold as ice. And when all else is gone, duty and honor will remain."


The intention is clear but the phrasing is a little clunky, I think. It's a nice sentiment and a good introduction to their Chapter name but it could use polish.

After the celebrations surrounding the Chapter's arrival on the world, Taramant promoted close association with the populace, exhorting the Space Marines to remember that these were the people of the Imperium, and their duty incarnate.


That last comma seems superfluous to me, but it's a niggling issue.

The regular, coherent levels of the lower city were gone, replaced with a crazed metal-and-ice warren of tunnels, chasms and precipices, while the upper city was a twisted wreck, shattered ice and building intermingled to form a strange and confusing new world.


I'm not sure about the use of "coherent" here and the overall sentence is almost as convoluted as the labyrinthine passages you're describing. Once again, your intentions are perfectly clear but the phrasing is a little jarring.

Adaptation would be required of the people, for the city had been badly damaged by the crash, and many systems which had sustained the citizens for millennia no longer functioned.


I'd cut the second comma here, and possible add "of the" right before "systems."

Deep in the tunnels, the marines discovered something they had not expected. Foul, ravening beasts had apparently lurked beneath the surface of the planet, in a winding warren of unknown depth. The crash of the monastery had broken into these tunnels, and now the warrens and the lower levels of the city were hopelessly intermingled, and the unknown creatures spread throughout them.


You've used "warren" to describe the tunnels almost exclusively throughout the article. They might bear a little bit of variation in word choice.

Your thoughts do not show us a new way, Telemachus. All they show is my failings as a teacher. - Taramant of the Ice Lords


Your personal quotes are gold. I love this one too.

By the time Master Taramant returned, with powerful Thunderhawks that could penetrate the winds below, conflict had arisen.


Death to the comma! In this case, only the first one needs to be exterminated.

Civilian after civilian fell to their jaws, and as the cries of the people for aid grew more plaintive, Telemachus and his men came to admire the wolves for their power, and grew to despise the citizens for their weakness.


This sentence almost feels like two different thoughts, though it could be saved by tuning up the ending slightly or breaking it apart. Out of deference to our discussion on editing, I won't explicitly spell out the ways that I see it but I think you can keep the value of what you're saying while still making it a clearer, easier read.

You are no longer men. You are to be Space Marines. You now serve mankind, in a way that you could not before, because you were of mankind. You must defend them, help them, and die for them. That is as it should be. - Chaplain Belicarius, addressing a group of new initiates


By now you're probably sick of seeing my comma critiques, but I'm just as guilty of overusing them at times. The third sentence in this quote could stand to lose the first comma, and I'm not sure about the proximity of "mankind" within the same line.

It's a great quote that needs just a little more polish.

The Ice Lords subscribe to the typical Astartes belief that the Emperor is the savior of humanity, but not a god, and they hold to it with a vehemence equaled only by that of First and Second Founding chapters. However, they maintain no veneration for their Primarch, Lion El'Jonson, a quirk which has astonished Imperial observers. Unsurprisingly, they are reticent about this facet of their beliefs, and also demonstrate a marked aversion to associating with those chapters that refer to themselves as the Unforgiven.


I love the angle you're working with the Dark Angels and the Ice Lords' reticence in regards to any successor Chapters, but the sidebar left me a little unclear on what happened. The implication I take from what you've written is that Chapter Master Taramant is an imposter, loyal to the Emperor all the same, but not the man sent to originally lead the fledgelings.

The combat doctrine of the Ice Lords cleaves closely to the Codex. Experience in the warrens below Falconscott seems to be slowly turning them into experts in confined engagement. Officers are encouraged to think outside the precepts of the codex, though knowledge of it is considered necessary for every marine in the Chapter.


They cleave closely to the Codex, yet are supposed to adopt unorthodox tactics? That seems a little contradictory.

Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one knows the wrong rituals - Lahdemor, Master of the Librarium


This is another personal preference, but the doubling-up of words is especially obvious in single line quotes.

Twenty-three years of tireless work and near-constant fighting still resulted in a death toll of millions dead, including many Ice Lords, but billions were saved who might otherwise have been slain in an attempt to save the lives of Space Marines and Inquisitors. And why should men die to save those who should die to defend them?


I really like their willingness to die to protect the population and you've shown their dedication to an idealistic aegis, rather than the uncaring zeal of some more hardline Chapters. However, this section probably needs a rewrite. You have a death toll of dead, and you could probably say exactly the same thing without tacking on at the end of the middle sentence. Perhaps cutting that and melding it into the closing one would be a little more elegant.

----

All in all, I think you have a fine writeup that manages not to be too derivative of anyone else's work and which doesn't read like it's just an excuse for having modeled a certain way. It just needs the literary equivalent of a nice detailing and then it'd be ready for submission, if the Librarium is your goal.
You just had to look around you, Grey Knight, and you'd have seen it. What is Chaos? Suffering, you might say. Oppression. Deceit. But could not all of these things be said of your Imperium?
-Ghargatuloth, Prince of a Thousand Faces, Grey Knights.

The Exonerators Index Astartes WIP + The Inscrutable Index Traitoris WIP + The Black Friars Index Astartes WIP


#67
Grand Master Tyrak

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By now you're probably sick of seeing my comma critiques, but I'm just as guilty of overusing them at times.


I think it's an issue with translating the spoken word to the written word. If I were saying these things out loud, I would have a pause there, hence the comma. But I wouldn't do it if I were purely writing it. I think it's just a matter of preference - the grammatical equivalent of a philosophical debate.

As a compromise, I'd recommend losing the superfluous commas except for the quotes, where it should remain true to the spoken word.

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#68
Ecritter

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Okay, what I was saying, and still is saying, is that "wrath was terrible to behold" just doesn't properly describe firing someone, unless you're firing them out of a cannon.

And I still think his response was light at best.

#69
Telveryon

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Revised The Fall of the Fortress and The Knights and the Wolves story.

Those definitely make for a more entertaining read! I'd go with them myself!

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#70
Lysimachus

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I must say, it feels like a more natural progression and conclusion.


agreed and excellent work! the revisions answer all of the concerns i had, and i like the idea of the parallel to what happened on Caliban. Nice to see Taramant handled it better than the Lion did! :cuss

edit: perhaps it would be worth swapping the placements of the 2nd and 3rd sidebars so the reader understands sooner what this refers to:

Master Taramant was gone from the city, fighting the last of the Genestealers from the hulk Vociferous Abomination




Ahhh, so colour basically replaces squad no. within any given Co.? Cool.



Having read Apothete's post, i think he has a point about some of the grammar, tbh i missed it myself but looking back...



@Ecritter:

And I still think his response was light at best.


I think you've got to consider the probably hundreds of years of service and work a marine will have put in to achieve the rank of Captain, plus honours gained, victories won, etc.
To lose that position, to have all of that honour wiped out as if it had never happened, would be a terrible and shameful punishment. I could see how many Marines would actually consider the death penalty as more merciful.


cheers

Lysimachus

Edited by Strike Captain Lysimachus, 28 May 2009 - 07:03 AM.


#71
Octavulg

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I have a minor quibble with this sentence, mostly because you have "fierce" followed very soon after by "ferocity."


Damn, hadn't noticed that.

Out of curiosity, what happened to the progenoids and geneseed of the fallen Angels of Absolution? Did they go on to become a part of the heritage of the Ice Lords, were they returned to the parent Chapter, did circumstance not allow their recovery, or did something even stranger happen?


They got tossed into space, to hide the evidence.

I'm not sure about the use of "coherent" here and the overall sentence is almost as convoluted as the labyrinthine passages you're describing.


As in not sure if I can use coherent that way (I can) or if I should (that's more questionable)? It was another word that I have now forgotten, but I changed it in an attempt to be clear that I'm talking about the layout and not the inhabitants.

You've used "warren" to describe the tunnels almost exclusively throughout the article. They might bear a little bit of variation in word choice.


If I start varying the term, I risk further confusion over which is which. I'm having difficulty keeping track myself.

This sentence almost feels like two different thoughts, though it could be saved by tuning up the ending slightly or breaking it apart. Out of deference to our discussion on editing, I won't explicitly spell out the ways that I see it but I think you can keep the value of what you're saying while still making it a clearer, easier read.


It is, but if I don't like them there's no natural flow between the two sentences. Wasn't too happy with this part.

Changed to remove the first part, and split the second part. Much better.

I love the angle you're working with the Dark Angels and the Ice Lords' reticence in regards to any successor Chapters, but the sidebar left me a little unclear on what happened. The implication I take from what you've written is that Chapter Master Taramant is an imposter, loyal to the Emperor all the same, but not the man sent to originally lead the fledgelings.


True, but not the whole story. Read it again.

If you're not sure yet, read the first paragraph again.

They cleave closely to the Codex, yet are supposed to adopt unorthodox tactics? That seems a little contradictory.


Shame fills my heart about this section. It and organization both need to be written once, not three times with three different goals.

This is another personal preference, but the doubling-up of words is especially obvious in single line quotes.


Doubling of words is sometimes used for emphasis/gravity (not always, but generally - if I do it unconsciously, I tend to take it out). Both here and with Belicarius' quote, that's the intention.

For the classic example: "In the beginning, there was the Word. And the Word was God, and the Word was with God."

Now, they could have said 'It was with Him' the second time. But replace it with that, and read the sentence again - lacks something, no?

I really like their willingness to die to protect the population and you've shown their dedication to an idealistic aegis, rather than the uncaring zeal of some more hardline Chapters. However, this section probably needs a rewrite. You have a death toll of dead, and you could probably say exactly the same thing without tacking on at the end of the middle sentence. Perhaps cutting that and melding it into the closing one would be a little more elegant.


A death toll of dead is a little redundant, admittedly. :P The death toll, however, is an afterthought more than the point. Still changed a bit, mind you.

----

All in all, I think you have a fine writeup that manages not to be too derivative of anyone else's work and which doesn't read like it's just an excuse for having modeled a certain way. It just needs the literary equivalent of a nice detailing and then it'd be ready for submission, if the Librarium is your goal.


Done(ish) is my goal. While I may never be completely satisfied, I do want it to get to the point where other people have a hard time picking holes in it. :P At least, holes I can't justify thematically/artistically/logically.

Update will be done in a little while - I'm going to read through the whole thing and revise, and I have stuff I should do first.

Thanks to all for the kind words, BTW. :lol:

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#72
Apothete

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I think it's an issue with translating the spoken word to the written word. If I were saying these things out loud, I would have a pause there, hence the comma. But I wouldn't do it if I were purely writing it. I think it's just a matter of preference - the grammatical equivalent of a philosophical debate.


That's a fair point and one that I find myself agonizing over in my own writing, since there was a sidebar in my own IA that ended up having a part of its flavor cut because I couldn't find a way to convey the way it would be spoken that wouldn't scan ridiculously as text. Of course, I did note on nearly all of my criticisms on this thread that I'm coming from my personal perspective on flow and structure.

And I still think his response was light at best.


The Ice Lords seem to be a fairly merciful Chapter and the handling of Telemachus doesn't seem all that unusual, given that trait. Before he turned his back on the populace, even the disgraced former Captain's first response during the fall of the city was to herd people away from the danger below and to protect them while facing the ice monsters. They have traditions of maintaining ties with their families! I don't think I've ever read of a Chapter that didn't sever all ties to their former lives aside from the Salamanders.

perhaps it would be worth swapping the placements of the 2nd and 3rd sidebars so the reader understands sooner what this refers to:


I agree with this suggestion, or at least with making reference to the hulk sooner so that it's clearer why Telemachus was on his own.

To lose that position, to have all of that honour wiped out as if it had never happened, would be a terrible and shameful punishment. I could see how many Marines would actually consider the death penalty as more merciful.


This.

Is an easy death where your knowledge of your shame ends really that much more cruel than having to live on and fight, knowing that everything you'd achieved has been besmirched by your disgrace?

They got tossed into space, to hide the evidence.


So the true training cadre was murdered and tossed into space by Fallen who took their places, molding the Ice Lords as they saw fit?

As in not sure if I can use coherent that way (I can) or if I should (that's more questionable)? It was another word that I have now forgotten, but I changed it in an attempt to be clear that I'm talking about the layout and not the inhabitants.


It was a stylistic criticism, not a technical one. Your use of the word was correct but it didn't necessarily seem like the best choice to describe what you were writing, or at least to me.

If I start varying the term, I risk further confusion over which is which. I'm having difficulty keeping track myself.


Why not refer to the wreckage-tunnels immediately beneath the city by some kind of formalized term, as if the Ice Lords or their citizens had christened the area out of recognition of the danger it presents? The obvious choice is something like The Labyrinth, but that would keep the anonymous monster warrens separate from the contested warzone beneath the fallen Fallen monastery.

Shame fills my heart about this section. It and organization both need to be written once, not three times with three different goals.


Oh believe me, I understand.

The reason that the Exonerators' eighth revision isn't up yet is that I'm not quite happy with the current rewrite. I want it to read like a single article, not a patchwork of different ideas that I've been pulling together.

Doubling of words is sometimes used for emphasis/gravity (not always, but generally - if I do it unconsciously, I tend to take it out). Both here and with Belicarius' quote, that's the intention.


No doubt, but I avoid the use of that particular literary device because I don't think I'm nearly good enough as a writer to pull it off with the kind of smooth gravity that it deserves. Once again, this was a personal preference criticism.

Done(ish) is my goal. While I may never be completely satisfied, I do want it to get to the point where other people have a hard time picking holes in it. At least, holes I can't justify thematically/artistically/logically.


Hey, I'm used to peeing in other people's cheerios (I used to edit a local publication), and most of what I can find wrong with your writeup is either grammatic in nature or down to personal tastes. I'd say that's pretty good.

Keep at it!
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#73
The 13th Goat

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Great read. Couple of points i would make:

  • I'm sure i've heard of the Heart Of Caliban being used before, although i can't remember where. I think it was in either Decent Of Angels of one of the other Dark Angel books. Might wanna take a look at them to check.
  • Secondly, i really dislike the colouring on the headers. Could you at least try to change the text colouring, as its almost impossable to read!
  • Finally, its really long and really detailed. I was under the impression IA's should sit roughly around 3000 words and be a little less specific?

Great job though. Lets us see what the bar is!
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#74
Octavulg

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1. I'm sure i've heard of the Heart Of Caliban being used before, although i can't remember where. I think it was in either Decent Of Angels of one of the other Dark Angel books. Might wanna take a look at them to check.


No mention of it in search engines, though there is apparently a band Caliban who produced a song called In My Heart...

Bah. I like the name, and duplication would not be surprising considering the fairly high number of ships in service and the limited number of themes Astartes use to name them. Besides, since the Heart of Caliban was conceived of before Descent of Angels was published, IIRC, the name is mine. :lol: I pretend the Black Library doesn't exist most of the time, anyway.

2. Secondly, i really dislike the colouring on the headers. Could you at least try to change the text colouring, as its almost impossable to read!


There is one header! One! I'll try bolding it and see if that helps. Trust me, other text colors will look worse and not be much easier to read.

3. Finally, its really long and really detailed. I was under the impression IA's should sit roughly around 3000 words and be a little less specific?


Not at all. Most GW IAs are 5000 words. I personally recommend sticking to about 4500, since GW IAs, as official fluff, tend to be slightly more interesting.

In regards to the detail - virtually every detail serves some purpose. Most of the ones that didn't were ruthlessly expunged in an attempt to halt the ballooning word count. If you see some that don't, feel free to point that out.

Detail isn't a problem, remember - it's detail that serves no purpose and provides no insight.

Update added.

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#75
Ace Debonair

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By gods, that's cool.
I don't remember seeing this in the Librarium. I'm frankly astonished.

If my ideas were this good, I'd have finished all my chapters weeks ago. :)
And that also makes two loyalist-traitor chapters that work well and kick butt while doing so.

And yes, I, the reader, felt clever knowing the big secret from near the start. :P
Quick question, however - is the first chapter master, Taramant, still alive to this day? (you know what I mean.) It'd be interesting to see if his death effects the balance of power or anything within the chapter...





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