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Problems fighting Vinnila Marines...


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7 replies to this topic

#1
Bjorn Darkwolf

Bjorn Darkwolf

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ok so here is my problem, i have a list that i have been working with, i designed it to be well rounded and to work fairly well against every enemy, but not specializing it killing one. the result is being relatively vulnerable to marine armies, especially their characters. this proves a problem because as a space wolf i tend to do well in the assault phase, not that i am centered around it, but i am solid there, especially when my leaders are involved. i have found that facing two squads, often on different sides of the board, the combination of litanies of hate, and the veil of time to be more than i can stand up to. fighting I6 5A librarians with power weapons and chaplains whose whole squads reroll misses is just a pain.

here is my list

1700pts

HQ

WGBL - Power Weapon and Plasma Pistol, Wolf Belt of Russ.
Wolf Priest - Power Weapon and Plasma Pistol
Venerable Dread - Lascannon

Elite

4 Wolf Scouts - Melta Bombs and Meltagun

Troops

10 Grey Hunters - Plasma Pistol x2, Plasmagun, Rhino
10 Grey Hunters - Power Weapon, Meltagun, Rhino
10 Grey Hunters - Power Fist, Power Weapon, Rhino
10 Blood Claws - Power Fist, Power Weapon (accompanied by Both WP and WGBL in Land Raider)

Heavy Support

Land Raider Crusader
Whirlwind

i have been playing the same marine player for about 3 weeks now and to little avail, he usually runs 3 Tac squads in Rhinos 2 Vindicators and a command squad in a razorback with multi melta. he gears up his units with assault weapons and power fists. he has been giving me a pretty bad beat down in about 60% of our games and the rest have been close. the ones he tends to dominate are the VP scenarios, where there are no objectives eacept killing each other.

my strategy against marines tends to consist of picking off there support vehicles with my lascannons, and waiting around for my scouts to come in and finish off anything that survives my Lascannon. my rhinos move about unleashing my Grey Hunters to Rapid fire down specialist units and whatever comes there way. this where things seem to go wrong, i always seem to find my self forced into assault, either because the is a vindicator bearing down on me forcing me to charge to avoid a S10 Blast or for some other scary thing to avoid. in combat i manage to chew through (at a high cost to my self) all the regular marines, but is when those IC get involved i just cant keep up, IF i am lucky enough to have my characters involved i can sometimes inflicted a fair amount of damage back, but my guys just don't seem to pack the same punch.

i am thinking i should re-establish my priorities, perhaps i should target his transports first forcing him to foot slog across to me (allowing my Whirlwind to come into play a bit more constantly, and allowing me to out maneuver him with my Rhinos.


#2
0.cool

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Hello.

Here's my opinion:
Let's start with your HQ section.
First of all, I am not a fan of plasma weapons, so the first thing you should do is to remove them.
Once you've done this, you can take a Frost Sword (or the like) for both your IC and Upgrade your WGBL to a Wolf Lord, that have a 1 more wound; personally i like the Frost Sword, because i can use the higher Initiative of my IC AND get a valuable +1 Strenght which means a 3+ wound roll versus alla opponent minis (even ICs).

Elite
They sould be ok, considering the threat of the Vindicator.

Troops
As I've said before, I'm not a fan of Plasma weapon, so i should drop some of them. For the first squad of grey Hunter, i suggest you to take only 6 marine and a razorback, armed with Twil Linked Lascannon, for two reason: 1) you have another Lascannon that could be useful against the Vindicator, so you should be able to destroy it in the first two turn and 2) because, once the Vidi has been blown up, you can shot at the enemy's transoprt to slow him! If you wish to take this options, you may need to take the plamsa gun for this squad as your only option, because you will need to shoot with the razorback, so you should'nt get to the CC so fast.
The other Squad looks fine, I just exchange one Power Weapon for one Power Fist in the Blood Claw pack, because you have enought I5 attack with your IC and use 6 attack on charge (due to the Blood Claw special rule) could be awesome.

Hevy Support
Land Raider Crusader is just fine .... as I always use Land Raider for my Blood Claw Packs

Wihrlwind: personally i don't like it, just because it cannont negate the Armour Save of Marines, but for that amount of points there are not so much choices, so it colud be ok. But maybe, if you've agrre with my suggestion you could have some points to spend and you could exchange for two land speeder, just to give more mobility to your list. But this is a minor change.

If you wish, I could try to meka a detailed army list for you to post via PM. If so let me know.

Hope to be usefull, let me knoe what you think!

#3
Leethal

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If there is one thing I know about Space Wolves.

And as a DA I know plenty enough.

You need more Frost Blades. Frost Blades are the reason why SW are scary in CC. S5 Power Weapon has two purposes. To Slice and Dice.

One core element I noticed about your list, you lack a Fast Attack. Blood Claw Bikers are useful in this situation. They're main purpose is to flank hit them from the sides or just offer your opponent a nice somewhat threatening force to deal with, as your bulk army trundles forward.

I might take out the Land Raider. They tend to only work well in Pairs. Or in a multiple squadron formation.
For the LRC's points you could grab a Leman Russ, fairly strong and useful. Actually If you remove a few points somewhere, you can get 2 Leman Russes.

To deal with the Vindicators, is kinda....hard. Best option would be to Deepstrke some Termies behind them, and watch your guns rip holes in their rear.

I'd drop the Whirlwind, it's not helping you here in this situation. He's not using any Scouts, you can't punch through his armor, you wound them half the time, not that useful. An more useful alternative would be Plasma Cannon SW Devastator equivalents. They can hurt his transports, have good enough range to outshoot the Vindi's, they can wound and kill Marines straight out when they pop out of the rhinos. And you can split fire with them, so you can take down multiple things at the same time.

My 2 cents.

#4
kanaellars

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Im sorry... I have to agree. Your weapons choices are all wrong.

Get a Wolf Lord. Give him a Frost Blade.

Every Grey Hunter Squad should have 2 power weapons (or Power Weapon / Power Fist)

Every Blood Claw Squad should have 2 Power weapons (or Power Weapon / Power Fist) (or move up to 15, 3 Power Weapons, and mount in LRC)

Make sure everyone who can have, has a wolf pelt.

When facing marines, do NOT assault. Advance... move within 6-12 inches... Let him Assault you... learn the Power of Counter-charge + Wolf Pelt.

That is how we wolves fight. That is how we wolves win.

You have been completely ignoring what makes us so special in CC... more weapons, more POWER weapons.

There should never be any squad of wolves (except Long Fangs) without at minimum 2 Power Weapons.

Here you go... this is a Grey Hunter squad. Personally I never field GH any other way.

Troops: Grey Hunter Pack (300 Pts)
10 Grey Hunter Pack @ 300 Pts
Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Close Combat Weapon (x8); Bolter (x10); Power Fist (x1); Power Weapon (x1); True Grit
1 Rhino @ [65] Pts
Storm Bolter; Extra Armor; Pintle-mounted Storm Bolter



EDITED:

Ok... I gave it some serious thought, and I found another way to field Grey Hunters... I think I am going to start using this one myself, as it makes them even MORE deadly in close combat.

Troops: Grey Hunter Pack (365 Pts)
9 Grey Hunter Pack
Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Close Combat Weapon (x7); Bolter (x9); Power Fist (x1); Power Weapon (x1); True Grit; Wolf Guard Leader

1 Rhino @ [65] Pts
Storm Bolter; Extra Armor; Pintle-mounted Storm Bolter

1 Wolf Guard Leader @ [86] Pts
Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Melta Bombs; Lightning Claw (x1); Storm Shield (x1); True Grit; Wolf Pelt
1 Auspex @ [2] Pts
1 Bionics @ [5] Pts
1 Master-Crafted Weapon @ [10] Pts
1 Wolf Pelt @ [3] Pts
1 Wolf Tooth Necklace @ [10] Pts

Edited by kanaellars, 18 August 2008 - 08:19 AM.

For Russ! For the Wolftime! My wolves stand ready.

#5
Bjorn Darkwolf

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Yah, all of these points are valid, and i have thought about most of them, i have just gone a different way (some cases a mistake).

here is some of my reasoning

HQ

i don't have a wolf lord strictly because in a 1750 list it hard to find points for him, i know he is 15pts more than the WGBL but when he is appropriately tooled out he costs a small fortune.

i went with minimal focus on my HQ wanting to have more points to spend on troops (being the objective focus in 5th ed)
still 12 power weapon attacks between the two of them supporting a BC unit is nice.

Wolf Pelts: omg i did not realize these stacked with our counter charge bonus. i just had rememberd the wording stating that we get our charge bonus when we counter charge. i did not realize it was a flat +1 attack.

Elites

in my 2k list i do use wolf termmies and yes they are awesome, and one of my favorite units but in 1750 i just cant afford to spend the points on a unit that can't cap an objective.

Troops

Plasma weapons: this is one place i agree i may need to re think, my thoughts on taking them were focused around advancing in rhinos then popping out and rapid firing a unit before receiving a charge. now i know are real strong suit is in cc, but i figure having on fire based unit would not hurt when faced with rougher melee units that i want to hurt before they charge me. bear in mind i am still going to put out 19 attacks in cc i just wont have any power weapon attacks.

Power Swords/Fists: again i love them and of my squads only one does not carry them. (perhaps i should replace some of these with power weapons)

Fast Attack:

i had two previous versions of this list one that included bikes and another with two land speeders. while both where nice to have neither one could do much about securing objectives.

Heavy Support:

Crusader: my original reason for taking this was simply to get my BC and IC's onto the fight. i am now thinking replacing it with a standard pattern land raider, as it can still deliver my assault troops in to the middle of the fight, but it can also deal with enemy vehicles.

Whirlwind: true it is less effective against marines but in general it is a good asset to have against most armies. remember this is a turnny list, so i need to be able to fight any army. besides it is death to ork/nid/tau/eldar infantry.

Here is a revamped version of this list i made before reading you comments.
( i agree i still think i need more power weapons, and may be two heavy on the plasma weaponry)

HQ

WGBL - Power Weapon, Plasma Pistol, Wolf Belt, Wolf pelt. 118pts
Wolf Priest -Power Weapon, Plasma Pistol, Wolf Pelt. 108pts
Ven Dread - Lascannon 175pts

Elites

4 Wolf Scouts - Meltagun, Melta Bombs 82pts

Troops

10 Grey Hunters - Power Weapon, Meltagun, Rhino w/ smoke launchers 252pts
10 Grey Hunters - Plasma Pistol x2, Plasmagun, Rhino w/ smoke launchers 263pts
9 Grey Hunters - Power Weaponx2 , Rhino w/ smoke launchers Wolf Guard Leader w/ bolter, Power fist, wolf tooth necklace, wolf pelt. 294pts
8 Blood Claws - Power Weapon, Power Fist, Rhino w/ smoke launchers. 132pts

Heavy Support

Land Raider 250pts
Whirlwind 85pts


#6
0.cool

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Hey,
I did not recognize that this were a turny list. Now , of coures, your Whirl is OK!

#7
Level

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All In all i think the advice of O.cool is sound.

the Frost blade is a definite must, power weapons on your HQ doesn't really save that many points and will make a big difference to your combat prowess.

I don't have a problem with plasma, in fact against marines i recommend it. Now that the plas pistol no longer has the double tap it is not as good, but firing up to four shots of hot plasma death into a power armoured squad can still do significant damage. if you hit, you wound on 2, there is no save and one marine says goodbye. Accompanied by a hail of bolter fire and the target squad will have nothing left with which to charge you.

The tactic for us wolves is roll up, rapid fire and take the charge from whatever is left.

More importantly you have to be crazy to not max out on the cheap power weapons and power fists in each squad. This is what makes us really stand out above the nillas. Take advantage of the special cc weapons that are available.
Using wolfguard to bolster your packs is also a great idea but I must say that an 86 point model with one wound is a bit exessive as thats almost as much as another whirlwind for one guy. My WG are no where near that amount of points. keep it simple: bolter, power fist and wolf pelt. that's half the cost

I'd run at him hard and fast, keeping your forces together. this will push him back and if you go for his transports then you should slow him down. use the scouts to take out his vindicators but once you are close enough for rapid fire at his squads he will be taking a big risk shooting at you with ordinance as he may just hurt himself. keep the raider in front as it can take some hits. then as you get close run the rhinos out, unload up close and rapid fire him to pieces. if he assaults you with whats left then i wish him luck.

hope it helps.
cheers
level
"Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam"

#8
0.cool

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Ok, Level, you've convinced me. I' ll try the plasma gun & 2 plasma pistol "pattern" on the squad in the Razorback!
I should have a game in this week-end, i'll post the result!
For Russ! :D