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Counter Attack, True Grit, the USR's and FAQ's


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#1
Thylacine

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Hi.

Another question for the forum dealing with the new rules and FAQ's, this comes from a discussion started on another forum that started as an open question. Please take the time to read the rule book, codex and FAQ as there is some to-and-fro reading that needs to be done.


The time-line for Space Wolves being assaulted under the new rules and FAQ's is:

1. Defenders React, this is for all races so we no longer need counter charge, I can work with that.

2. Counter-Attack we ignore the rule in the SW codex as per the FAQ and use the rule as per the USR's. Rolling for Leadership and perhaps picking up the +1 assault bonus. (Remember we are not assaulting but countering the enemies attack/assault)

3. True Grit comes into play because it is a SW special rule, we did not charge the other player did, we just countered his charge! He moved all of his models 6" to 'Charge/Assault" our models, we simply move un-engaged models up to 6" to meet this threat and play on using our rules!"

An afterthought was that only some of the models that were charged would have True Grit as they did not move but, that rule relates to Charging (starting an assault) not receiving or countering their charge using the new rules.

Comments?
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#2
OnlyInDeath

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The way this works to my understanding is this:

Wolves have the counter charge rule. What this means for us is that if we are charged, provided we pass a leadership test, when we "respond" to the charge, we pick up the attack bonus as if we had charged (+1 for most wolves, +2 for BC and any unit led by Ragnar)

True grit comes into play in the NEXT round of combat for greyhunters. As the new countercharge rules state, it counts as if we have charged, hence the +1 attack from countercharge. True grit is then negated on the countercharge by the new countercharge rules. True grit will apply in the following rounds of combat, as we now have a CC weap and a "bolt pistol" by the true grit rules. This means that no matter the round of combat, models with a bolter will always have +1 attack, either by countercharge or by true grit (eg: GH recieve a charge and countercharge for +1 attack. Provided they stick around for the next round of combat, they will continue to have +1 attack for the true grit rule).

Quick note: a wolf pelt WILL give you +1 attack to your countercharge. So, say, if Ragnar countercharges with a wolf pelt, he countercharges with +3 attacks

Hope that helps
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QUOTE (Vassakov @ Feb 23 2009, 05:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
At the end of the day, we know who our true brothers are. We watch the halls of Russ, and remember our days of glory whilst persuing ever greater ones.
We are the Sons of Russ, for the All-Father and the Wolf King. From now, until the End Days and the Wolftime. We play by our rules, and noone elses.



#3
Thylacine

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Only in Death.

From the USR "If the test is successful all models in the unit get the +1 assault bonus to their attacks, exactly as they too had assaulted that turn. There is nothing to point to True Grit coming into play in the next round of combat (play turn) as there is a good chance that your pack won't be there. The pack is not charging, it is countering a charge and there is the possibility that a good number of the pack will not have moved. By your reasoning the pack only has the one base attack.

It is not as easy as it seems.


'edited for misplaced quote'

Edited by Thylacine, 20 August 2008 - 04:18 AM.

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#4
OnlyInDeath

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Actually Thylacine, go ahead and complete that thought: "Ignore this and use the rules from the 40K rulebook"

What does that rule say? That for countercharge, if you complete the leadership test, you get +1 attack. It's pretty simple. Instead of just using the old rules of countercharge, which says that we just move our models into contact when we are charged (as everyone does due to the new "react" rule), we now actually do that AND take a leadership test to see if we get a nice little +1 attack bonus AS IF we had charged. And the rule is not about the individual model that countercharges, it's ALL MODELS in the UNIT, you said it yourself. therefore, if the unit countercharges, the unit as a whole gets +1 attack, not just the models that have moved. A UNIT that charges gets the attack bonus.

I actually have read the rulebook and the FAQ, plus this has been discussed in depth here. Maybe your search-fu needs work.

Edited by OnlyInDeath, 20 August 2008 - 04:52 AM.

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QUOTE (Vassakov @ Feb 23 2009, 05:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
At the end of the day, we know who our true brothers are. We watch the halls of Russ, and remember our days of glory whilst persuing ever greater ones.
We are the Sons of Russ, for the All-Father and the Wolf King. From now, until the End Days and the Wolftime. We play by our rules, and noone elses.



#5
Bjorn Darkwolf

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Only in Death is right, the general consensus is that our Grey Hunters will not get a further +1 attack for counter attack with a bolter. we will have the 1 profile attack and then a +1 if we pass a leadership test, OR a +1 attack for true grit with a bolter. In short or Grey Hunters will preform the same has they always have, a consistent two attacks in any given round of combat.

Counter attack will really only be worth it for a our BC packs countering with +2 attacks and our other pistol armed packs gaining a +1 second weapon attack in addition to their profile and the counter attack bonus.

(this is a transitory phase until we get our new dex where we should have bolter, pistol and CCW)

Edited by Bjorn Darkwolf, 20 August 2008 - 07:08 AM.



#6
Vassakov

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Aye, that's how I read the rule. The jury's still out over Pelts, but there is nothing in RAW (or even RAI, to be honest) that suggests they do not stack.
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#7
Spacefrisian

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I just keep at it that the Wolfpelt stacks, regardless of what the Jury will say about this. Unless an Errata will clarify this that is.
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#8
Coverfire

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I created a thread a while back regarding some open questions on the rules for SW and Grey Knights.
I didn't ask about GH's (carrying Bolters) Counter-Charging because I thought it was rather straight forward.
i.e. GH's (carrying Bolters) do not benefit from the Counter-Charge rule.

However, one thing I DID clear up was the question about Wolf Pelts. Models using Wolf Pelts gain +1A to
Counter-Charge. If the also passed their leadership check they gain another +1A to Counter-Charge.

A Wolf Lord with Boltpistol, Power weapon and a Wolf Pelt that Counter-Charges gain:
4 Base Attacks, +1A for extra weapon, +1A for Wolf Pelt, +1A Counter Charge (if he passes leadership check)

A Wolf Lord with Combi weapon, power weapon and a Wolf Pelt that Counter-Charges gain:
4 Base Attacks, +1A for Extra weapon (using True Grit), +1A Wolf Pelt.

I hope that makes sense.
QUOTE (OnlyInDeath @ Jul 1 2009, 02:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I just personally love the fluff factor that our Primarch returning will set in motion the final battle for humanity, where existence itself is on the line. So our primarch is a complete harbinger badass. What's yours got? Nuttin.

#9
Ullr Direfang

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i have been using the rules this way:

1) GH with true grit and counter-charge get 1 attack base + 1 for ture grit + 1 for counter-charge (passing the required ld test).

2) :( wolf pelts stack.

i had talked it over with my resadent guru and this is the conclusion we came to.

Edited by Ullr Direfang, 20 August 2008 - 09:31 PM.

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#10
OnlyInDeath

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i have been using the rules this way:

1) GH with true grit and counter-charge get 1 attack base + 1 for ture grit + 1 for counter-charge (passing the required ld test).

2) ;) wolf pelts stack.

i had talked it over with my resadent guru and this is the conclusion we came to.



The thing about the first point is this: true grit doesnt work if you charge; counter-charge counts as charging (hence the +1 attack). That is why I said above in the thread that you dont get 3 attacks w/ GH on the countercharge, just 2. 1 base and +1 for countercharge, true grit negated from the charge. However, in the following combat phases, true grit would then be used to give them 2 attacks ongoing.

And yes, wolf pelts stack. I clarified this w/ someone rather high up in the GW structure after I heard from a local blackshirt that they wouldnt. He allayed my fears and said they do, in fact, stack.

Edited to add: If you DONT pass your Ld test for counterchage, it's important to note that instead you are just "reacting" by moving your models in and would, in fact, gain the true grit +1 attack as you wouldnt be charging. So no matter what, you will have 2 attacks with your GH.

Edited by OnlyInDeath, 21 August 2008 - 01:29 AM.

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QUOTE (Vassakov @ Feb 23 2009, 05:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
At the end of the day, we know who our true brothers are. We watch the halls of Russ, and remember our days of glory whilst persuing ever greater ones.
We are the Sons of Russ, for the All-Father and the Wolf King. From now, until the End Days and the Wolftime. We play by our rules, and noone elses.



#11
Thylacine

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Counter-Aattack as a phase in the assault is replaced by 'Defenders React' which is not a charge and all races use DR. Counter-Attack is a totally new rule and confers a +1 assault bonus to those armies that have the rule (Space Wolves) and roll under their Leadership Value.

Now, when a SW pack is charged, those models un-engaged move up to base-to-base contact using Defenders React, this is not a charge move. Remembering that some of the models are already in base to base with the enemy squad and that this could be the majority of your pack.

Because SW's have the Counter-Attack rule, (same heading but using the RSR's version) you roll to see if you receive the +1 bonus, roll low and you get it. So the SW's have one base attack from their profile, the +1 bonus from Counter-Attack and one attack from True Grit if armed with a bolter as they always have a CCW.

To say they do not is just wrong, suppose none of the pack had to move up, they still have the CA rule that can't be taken from them and it is the 'new' rule wording that is used. The defining part of the rule is "to represent this, when a unit with this rule is assaulted by the enemy it must take a Leadership test. If the test is successful all models in the unit get the +1 bonus to their attacks, exactly as if they had assaulted in that turn."

The pack does not need to move, they could already be in contact, but because they have the rule C-A they get to use it! The rule says "exactly as if they too had assaulted" it does not say 'they assault too', this is simply a device, a way of showing that their +1 C-A bonus is similar to the +1 Assault Bonus for charging (initiating the attack and catching your enemy off guard). Remember the bonus is conditional, you must roll under your Leadership to get it. True Grit is also conditional but to loose it you have to Assault in your Assault phase not counter an assault, or use another rule. Only initiating an Assault will counter True Grit!

Everyone has two attacks, however SW's will have three attacks because of their True Grit rule and this remains so until the next SW codex or until a new FAQ is printed. BTW whats wrong with a expensive 'assault' army having an extra attack in HtH, is that not what we pay the extra points for?

Thylacine.
170 grains of lead at 2,200 fps stops anyone.

#12
the great beaver

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yeah people have to realize that counter attacking states "counts as charging" therefore no bolter as CCW love on that one

#13
saphius

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I think Thy has a good point. There Deffinetally is merit for what he is saying. While I myself am not convinced, I do believe that it is a little bit of a Grey area. (Pun intended)

I myself still run them with 2 attacks either way. To me it just makes the most sense. Unless carrying a bolter and a pistol. But until someone contact GW and clears this up, I'll run them 'as if they had charged'. Therefore not getting the +1 attack for True Grit sadly.