Doctor Thunder Posted September 5, 2008 Share Posted September 5, 2008 It occurred to me while posting in another thread that, while Horus is described as being a tactical genius, his actions described in the Horus Heresy were anything but. This is because the vast majority of 40K fluff has been written by professional playtesters, not professional authors. The writers themselves did not know enough about tactics and strategy to enable them to imagine what a brilliant tactician would actually do. So, I'm sure we have some creative thinkers on this board. How would a true tactical genius like Horus have approached the Heresy and brought about victory for his side instead of agonizing failure? I'll start with my ideas: 1) If his goal was to eliminate the Emperor both as an individual and a figurehead, then the siege of Terra was the worst possible way to do that. As Warmaster, he was the most trusted general and servant of The Emperor. It would have been simple for him to invite the Emperor to meet him somewhere away from Terra and eliminate him. 2) If his goal was to rule over all of humanity, and control its armies, then there is no reason to destroy the legions not already loyal to you. As The Emperor's first and favored son, Horus was in a very strong position to assume the throne once The Emperor was dead. All he would have had to do was frame a suitable patsy to take the blame for killing The Emperor, like Night Haunter, for example, whom everyone would be quick to blame. After Horus triumphantly hunts down and kills The Emperor's killer, even his staunchest opposition would not protest when Horus humbly took the throne and took permanent command of the Space Marine Legions. Let's hear yours. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wander Posted September 5, 2008 Share Posted September 5, 2008 Horus was made Warmaster specifically because the Emperor didn't want to ever have a need to leave Earth as he completed the Webway project; an invitation out to some remote sector of space wouldn't have been welcome or even necessarily acted upon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Thunder Posted September 5, 2008 Author Share Posted September 5, 2008 Horus was made Warmaster specifically because the Emperor didn't want to ever have a need to leave Earth as he completed the Webway project; an invitation out to some remote sector of space wouldn't have been welcome or even necessarily acted upon. No, no, no, you're supposed to put forth your own ideas in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wander Posted September 5, 2008 Share Posted September 5, 2008 Horus was made Warmaster specifically because the Emperor didn't want to ever have a need to leave Earth as he completed the Webway project; an invitation out to some remote sector of space wouldn't have been welcome or even necessarily acted upon. No, no, no, you're supposed to put forth your own ideas in this thread. I can't discuss your ideas? I know that it would be nice to get the Emperor out somewhere to assassinate him, but that would require us to ignore pretty much all the fluff; if we're throwing out everything, why even bother? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Thunder Posted September 5, 2008 Author Share Posted September 5, 2008 We wouldn't have to ignore anything. It wouldn't be difficult to conjure up a "major discovery on a remote world that will revolutionize the webway project" to pique his interest. I can't discuss your ideas? The point of this thread is to exercise some creativity and come up with your own alternate possibilities. If you have none to add, then your comments are off-topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wander Posted September 5, 2008 Share Posted September 5, 2008 We wouldn't have to ignore anything. It wouldn't be difficult to conjure up a "major discovery on a remote world that will revolutionize the webway project" to pique his interest. I can't discuss your ideas? The point of this thread is to exercise some creativity and come up with alternate possibilities. If you have none to add, then your comments are off-topic. Well, you see, that's exactly my point; the Webway project was executed under extreme secrecy. Horus didn't know about it; essentially only the Emperor and his corps on Terra knew. But seriously, a thread dedicated to throwing out random ideas without discussing any of them is as boring as I can possibly imagine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted September 5, 2008 Share Posted September 5, 2008 2) If his goal was to rule over all of humanity, and control its armies, then there is no reason to destroy the legions not already loyal to you. As The Emperor's first and favored son, Horus was in a very strong position to assume the throne once The Emperor was dead. All he would have had to do was frame a suitable patsy to take the blame for killing The Emperor, like Night Haunter, for example, whom everyone would be quick to blame. After Horus triumphantly hunts down and kills The Emperor's killer, even his staunchest opposition would not protest when Horus humbly took the throne and took permanent command of the Space Marine Legions. This is actually almost exactly what Stalin did to Trotsky. More on topic, how about garrisoning a legion that he had in his back pocket in the Imperial Palace to sabotage the place and welcome his invading forces "as liberators" upon his attack. Or how about carrying out an Istvaan like maneuver closer to Terra so he wouldn't waste months traveling and giving the loyalists time to fortify. Also, a good virus bombing of the planet might have worked alright as a last resort instead of lowering the shields on his barge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Thunder Posted September 5, 2008 Author Share Posted September 5, 2008 But seriously, a thread dedicated to throwing out random ideas without discussing any of them is as boring as I can possibly imagine. Different strokes for different folks. If this thread is not to your taste, I'm sure you'll be able to find another one that is. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.(Space)Marine Posted September 5, 2008 Share Posted September 5, 2008 Horus mistakedly thought that the white scars and iron hands were going to rebel, and if they did he probably would have won (having another legion or two at terra, plus removing one from terra and another from isstvan). Personally I don't know how he could think Ferrus would turn traitor but thats just me--in my mind ferrus would be loyal to the death (which is what happened). And instead of throwing the ultras into the word ebarers why not throw the ultras into the largest alien empire they could find? That way all the WBs could help Horus and his buddies at terra, and the ultras, thinking they wouldn't be going into this alone, would be waaaay outnumbered and would be tied down for quite some time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravingbantha Posted September 5, 2008 Share Posted September 5, 2008 It may have been Horus' plan to kill the emperor and rule that galaxy, but I think that it was the Chaos gods will for him to just cripple the galaxy, and so they twisted his mind to fail. In the 'Legion' the Cartel says that if Horus wins, humanity will quickly die out, but if Horus looses humanity will surviv another 20,000 years and then drag the rest of the galaxy down with it. I don't think the gods of chaos wanted a dead empire, after all most of their worshipers come from the empire. So if the empire is wipped out, then they would loos a large portion of people that give the chaos gods power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.(Space)Marine Posted September 6, 2008 Share Posted September 6, 2008 Thats a good point there, Ravingbantha. If Horus had won, he would probably have eventually killed all the ordinary humans, and made a new "astartes empire" or something like that (which would not last very long, you need more than just soldiers in an empire). If that happened the chaos gods would become heaps weaker, possibily even getting destroyed, because most of their followers are humans. Maybe the Chaos Gods had planned Horus' defeat all along... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Aruis Posted September 6, 2008 Share Posted September 6, 2008 How would Horus destroy humanity? Also did Horus really want to kill the emperor or just become the new leader of humanity? I think it was the second. I don't think he wanted to kill his father , more so he wanted his father to go out and fight for his empire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravingbantha Posted September 6, 2008 Share Posted September 6, 2008 Horus' original intentions were to replace his father, but as we know Chaos Space marines don't exactly fight for the benifit of Mankind. Even before the war started he showed how cruel he was, remeber the killing of the rememberancers on Horus' ship? Plus Horus didn't care to much for non Asteras even before he fell. I doubt he would have overthrown the emperor and then become a wonderfull and benine leader. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hasoroth Posted September 6, 2008 Share Posted September 6, 2008 But seriously, a thread dedicated to throwing out random ideas without discussing any of them is as boring as I can possibly imagine. Different strokes for different folks. If this thread is not to your taste, I'm sure you'll be able to find another one that is. :tu: Ah yes, the forum, a place most decidedly not for debate. I think someone is just a bit touchy because their idea was refuted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Aruis Posted September 6, 2008 Share Posted September 6, 2008 Wasn't the ultramarines Gullimean(sp) just as bad Horus? He seemed like he was just as power hungry as Horus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.(Space)Marine Posted September 6, 2008 Share Posted September 6, 2008 How would Horus destroy humanity? By killing every human. Astartes are not human, they are beyond that. If all ordinary humans were killed, then Mankind would be no more. Wasn't the ultramarines Gullimean(sp) just as bad Horus? He seemed like he was just as power hungry as Horus? Theres a divided opinion on that. Some, like me, think that the Imperium would have been better off with the full legions and without the meddling of the codex, whislt others--mostly Ultramarine players, and there are many--think that what he did was good for the Imperium. Sure, he held the Imperium together after the heresy, but he almost ignited another galactic civil war because of his stubborness and self-righteousness. Dorn backed down at the last moment because he did not want to see the Imperium engulfed into another civil war, but if he hadn't, Gulliman certainly would have not backed down, and then the Imperium would have been destroyed. As I said, there are two sides on that, so I wouldn't be surprised if somone else decided to jump in now and argue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted September 6, 2008 Share Posted September 6, 2008 If I was Horus, I would have first directed the Ultramarines into the largest concentration of Orks findable, and then wait for them to get committed into a large war. this takes care of the Ultramarines. this is what he did to the Wolf and the Lion. I would have used the Alpha Legion and night lords to strike at the homeworlds of the Iron Hands, Salamanders and Raven Guard. Any protracted war against the loyalists of the Imperium would be alot easier if the forces lacked the ability to draw reinforcements. with the raven guard, iron hands and salamanders vicioucly mauled after the Dropsite Massacre their ability to resist would be severly reduced. During the Siege of Terra I would have probably oversaw the siege in person, to better lead the various factions in battle, and force the emperor's children to fight in the siege, and not ravage the civilians. thats what virus bombs are for. and mr.(space)marine, i totally agree with you. (as a son of russ, i bet that didnt ellict too much suprise) i think the breaking of the legions was a mistake, as the complete might of the legions would have better held the Imperium together (in my opinion). prepare for the onslaught of smurf attacks! jk. guilliman had too much ambition in my opinion, and probably would have eventually rebelled if horus hadnt done so first. his ambition scared me. wolf lord kieran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.(Space)Marine Posted September 6, 2008 Share Posted September 6, 2008 If I was Horus, I would have first directed the Ultramarines into the largest concentration of Orks findable, and then wait for them to get committed into a large war. this takes care of the Ultramarines. this is what he did to the Wolf and the Lion. Yeah, he sent each of them into a "fake" war before ambushing the space wolves with the Alpha legion and ambushing the Dark Angels with the Night Lords, but IMO the NL and AL could have been used elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokunator Posted September 8, 2008 Share Posted September 8, 2008 How about not letting the Emperor's Children kill all the civilians for fun but to fuel the Daemon Summoning Ritual to end all Daemon Summoning Rituals and overrun Terra with more Daemons than even Sanguinius could kill? I know that there were Daemons by the truckload on Terra but maybe a billion souls sacrificed in the name of the Dark Gods would summon more than the defenders could handle. Oh, and how about not lowering your shields and letting the Emperor and your brothers get on board to kill you? My 2cc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noblesavage Posted September 8, 2008 Share Posted September 8, 2008 The point of this thread is to exercise some creativity If Horus really wanted to win, he should have designed an Internet army. He could have figured out how to get 24 heavy bolters into his list. That's 72 shots a turn! And that's a lot of dakka (dakka)! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan the Lurker Posted September 8, 2008 Share Posted September 8, 2008 But seriously, a thread dedicated to throwing out random ideas without discussing any of them is as boring as I can possibly imagine. Different strokes for different folks. If this thread is not to your taste, I'm sure you'll be able to find another one that is. ;) People are just as free to debunk your ideas in this thread as they are to submit their own (and thereby perhaps be debunked themselves). You say you want to talk about plausible ways to have the outcome of the Heresy change -- that means discussing and if necessary debunking ideas that don't lend credit to plausibility. Someone should PM Refuse, he has a fairly well thought out "alternate Heresy" scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c-wrex Posted September 8, 2008 Share Posted September 8, 2008 Ok, if I was Horus, and we're talking post Istvaan galactic settings, After dispatching the various legions under my command to their unchanged assignments of harassment and interdiction, I would have ordered the bulk of my legion (wow that's a heady feeling...woo) and those of Mortarion, Angron, and Fulgrim to sieze as many forge worlds, shipyards, and agri worlds as possible in the systems nearest Terra and begun blockading the home system. Simultaneously, I would have ordered those worlds I had siezed to begun production solely for my forces, and started choking off Terra. As reports came in from my brothers, I would begin dispatching units of the warriors under my mantle to aid them in destroying their loyalist targets. For example, once the Word Bearers had begun assaulting Macragge and Calth, I would have sent in reinforcements , stuff like that. Naturally this whole time I would also have ordered my legion to continue recruiting and making more marines. Then, with the news of Magnus' state, I would have ordered him to use his sorcerous powers to cloud the loyalists from the happenings in the warp by creating warp storms and stirring up daemons in the space around Terra, or as close as he were able. Once My army (hoo boy that's alot of fun to imagine...) had acquired to fleet strength and force of arms, while depleting Terra and her allies of supply and reinforcement, I would then have ordered the attack on the Terran system. Overwhelming force against an opponent unable to fight back. That's how I would have done it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noblesavage Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 OK, seriously, if I was a brilliant tactician like Horus, this is how I would have won the war. First, I would have called all my Chaos friends (even the ones I had to take gym with and didn't like very much) and form them into a big army. I'd aim to have at least four Chaos dudes to every loyalist. ('Cause you know the Space Wolfs will bring the cheese, and have two power fists in each Blood Claw unit. SW drool, DA rool! LOL!) Anywho, then I'd put them all in a huge battlefleet, with lots of Black Fortresses and things that would blow up suns and stuff. Then, I'd go from one end of the galaxy to the other and kick everybody's butt I came across. So then, by the time I got to Earth, I'd have lotsa slaves and guns and food and other stuff. So, then, when I got to Earth, first I'd send those sneaky guys, you know the ones with the crazy bat wings on their helmets into the sewers. That always works! Then, right before I invaded the Emperor's throne room, I'd send him an e-mail that said "Dude, your fly is totally open!" Then, when he was looking down, I'd run up and snip off his 'nads with my power claw. That's how I would have done it. Then they'd call ME Emperor. Yeah. JMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c-wrex Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 Savage you just became my intarweb hero. Me and Mary Jane thought that post of yours was hilarious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hasoroth Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 1: Buy Nukes 2: Fire Nukes at Terra 3: Continue firing Nukes at Terra. 4: Repeat 3 ad infinitum. 5: ??? 6: Profit! Seriously: Lackey:"Milord Horus! Milord! The White Scars have sallied forth to retake the space port!" Horus: "Oh. Ok. Nuke 'em. Just keep dropping atomics. Don't stop till Terra is shattered, we'll see how long the Emperor can hold his breath when he's floating in dead space." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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