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Index Astartes: Apocalypse Lords


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#1
Honda

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The Secret History of the Apocalypse Lords



History



In the days following the aftermath of Abaddon's 13th Crusade, a group of humbled
minds from the highest echelons of the Ecclesiarchy struggled to come to grips
with the blow that had been dealt. Abaddon had challenged their faith and
faith had lost.

They studied in detail the accounts where the loss of several planets
in the Cadian system were due to the direct result of small, but inflammatory seeds
of heresy planted by contingents of the extremely dangerous Alpha Legion and Dark Apostles
of the Word Bearers. These seeds separated untold millions of souls from the Emperors' blessing
and as a result, a new hatred was born.

The leaders, now named the Apocalypse Council, acknowledged that it is a more
efficient use of resources to deal with heresy in its infancy, rather than
waiting for the festering cancer to engulf an entire planet or worse yet,
a system. They also came to the conclusion that had the available
resources been adequate, then the disastrous consequences of the Black
Crusade would not have occurred.

A decision was made.

Overtures to the High Lords by the Ecclesiarchy began and a case was made
for the creation of a new chapter, whose sole purpose was to uncover and eliminate the
multitudes of active agents and dormant cells of future rebellions.

The Ecclesiarchy desperately wanted the new chapter to implement
its specific decisions and decrees, believing that only they, the keepers of
the faith were able to efficiently root out heretics. Recognizing that there
are two types of control, the Ecclesiarchy did not challenge the authority
of the High Lords nor the Adeptus Mechanicus. They realized that the founding
would never be allowed to be created, let alone exist outside those conditions.

However, the sponsors lobbied and were granted what was initially believed
to be an innocent concession.

The concession, simply enough, was to provide the chapter leadership through Chaplains trained by
the Ecclesiarchy on Terra. Without a prior connection to an existing chapter, there wouldn't be any battle
brothers lent to the new founding. Able Commanders would not be available for several centuries, and there
were concerns that a Chapter Master would soon want his chapter to pursue his priorities, which could not be
assumed to be the same as the Ecclesiarchy. There couldn't be any Librarians in the command structure either. It
was also felt that any potential psychic ability inherent in Librarians could present a weakness that would be
exploited by their chosen enemy.

To alleviate any suspicions raised by the High Lords, the chapter suggested an
attachment of Inquisitorial overseers for a period of two centuries to ensure that
the new founding would not seek in some way, to circumvent the Decree Passive. Several centuries
would pass before any whispers of the collusion between Puritan factions of the Inquisition, the Ecclesiarchy, and
the Apocalypse Lords would surface.

With the agreement in hand, the Ecclesiarchy took steps to ensure that the
proper levels of leadership, piety, and most importantly, "allegiance" would be
enforced. As new leaders were developed from within the chapter, the candidates
for chaplaincy would make a pilgrimage to Terra to submit their souls to Ecclesiarchial rituals. Those that passed the Soul Cleansing,
would return back to their chapter spiritually renewed and prepared to lead their brethren in the unending search for the heretic. However,
not all those who undergo the Soul Cleansing survive and of those that survive, not all return.

Those that do not return have their names stricken from the Chapter records.

To support their operations, a spaced based fortress was constructed and
appropriately named, "Apocrypha". From this base, Strike Cruiser operations could
rapidly shift to newly identified hot spots, allowing the Apocalypse Lords the freedom of movement
to engage heresy where ever it raised its corrupt head. An extensive suite of electronics were integrated
into not only the fortress, but the Chapters Strike Cruisers as well. The chapter has developed an massive
cadre of servitors whose sole purpose is to listen for heresy.

The Chapter is instilled with the following belief which echoes their method of
operations:

Heresy covets the cloak of night,
but Heresy speaks, and that which speaks can be heard,
that which can be heard, can be found,
and that which can be found, will be destroyed.


Chapter Motto: "Apocalypse has come, let the End begin"


Chapter Operations


The Apocalypse Lords were created as a rapid strike force to support the
application of pin point attacks on suspected cult leaders or Word Bearer acolytes.
Decapitation strikes, that is, removing the head of the beast, is believed to be the most efficient
use of force. Great efforts are put into locating leaders and their accompanying elites or coven
and striking them with overwhelming force.

The Apocalypse Lords use a higher than normal level of scouts, who are
tasked with locating the command structures of the heretic, so that
follow on forces may then descend from the deep of the night to deliver a
blow and eliminate the festering sore. However, whether justice is served
by a single bullet, or the tip of a blade, precision is the guiding
principle of each blow.

Much of the chapter operates in small teams that specialize in surveillance,
stealth, and mobility. The chapter Scout brethren are the surveillance and light
attack arm, specialists that could be considered among the "elite" of any chapter.

The tactical and terminator squads are the follow on forces to the scouts, using their
higher mobility and increased firepower to destroy the heretics resistance points, once
they have been identified. The Assault brethren equipped with either Jet packs or Landspeeders
represent the mobile hammer that quickly appears with a focused fury, often times inducing confusion
in the enemy by their sudden appearance.

Due to the need for rapid deployments in their operations, vehicles are rarely seen when the
Apocalypse Lords conduct their operations. Instead, the brethren who have been entombed in dreadnought
armor provide any local heavy fire support required, always in close proximity to the follow on forces. Their
presence in operations only adds to the firestorm of righteous fury that characterizes an operation.

Livery

The chapter colors of the Apocalypse Lords represent their Puritan outlook on the
Imperium and their operations. All questions and perspectives can be resolved
down to the most simple of components.
Tactical trooper

Their livery is white and black, vertically bisecting the trooper, with
white on the left side. The shoulder pad rims are bronze. The chapter symbol
is the Greek letter Omega, which is displayed on the left shoulder. The motto,
"Let the End Begin" has been seen overlaying the Omega symbol on occasion. Squad and
company markings do not appear to be in evidence, in many cases replaced by litanies and
declarations of faith.

In their world view, all things are black and White, Good or Evil, for the Emperor,
or against. There is no "in-between". Their charter is the elimination of
heresy within, no matter what form it may take.

Each squad or team is led by a Deacon. The Deacons' responsibility is to lead by example, exhorting
his squad of brethren to ever greater levels of belief in the continuing war against heresy. Those deacons
that distinguish themselves on the field of battle are then nominated to make a pilgrimage to Terra.

The Triarchs

To provide the additional spiritual strength required to battle the heretic,
the chapter is led by a command structure known as, "The Triarchs". This command
structure is composed of the first three surviving chaplain candidates who were
culled from the initial chapters founding.

The Triarchs, once returned from Terra, developed into warriors possessing
unprecedented levels of belief in the Emperor, their mission, and their capabilities.
Heresy would find no foothold in their hearts or souls…nor would mercy.


Benkei, was the first from the initial culling to survive the Soul Cleansing
ritual and became the Head Chaplain of the Apocalypse Lords.

Benkei has very little in the way of memories prior to, or during the cleansing
ritual. Very little that is, except for a burning vision of sobbing uncontrollably at
the feet of the Emperor while being showered in his blood. When he regained
consciousness on a high mountain plateau, in his hand was a small vial of a dark
red fluid. This totem now adorns his neck and is a constant reminder of the
great sacrifice made for mankind. Benkei is adorned in armor colored a deep
blood red.

Benkei feels driven to redeem the Emperors loss through the blood of traitors in the
hope that someday, the ultimate debt will be repaid.

Cephas, is an orator of extraordinary ability. He is known by the rest of
the chapter as the "Bringer of the Word". Clad in white armor, Cephas leads
the entire chapter in the daily prayers and is responsible for selecting potential chaplain
candidates from the deacon body. Cephas is as deadly with the sword as he
is inspiring with the word. Cephas was the second candidate to survive the Cleansing
and return to the Chapter.

Justinian, also known as the Angel of Justice, is clad in armor of gold. Like an
avenging angel, Justinian sweeps through the unclean, the agent of swift redemption. Should
any escape his wrath, he also sits in judgment of those heretics who somehow survived and administers
the Emperors justice. Unfortunately for those who come before Justinian, it is a justice that is delivered in
slow measured steps. In some instances, it is brought out one drip at a time. All too soon those judged wish
for the instant release of their co-conspirators.

New chaplains that return from the Cleansing, adopt a role that is modeled after one of the three original
Triarchs. When that decision is made, the new acolyte's armor is painted to match the color of the Triarch
they are dedicating their service to. Their armor communicates not only their alignment, but also a personal
style in the war against the heretic.

Benkei Acolyte: A chaplain that seeks to follow Benkei will continually struggle with the blood debt that
he feels he must repay to the Emperor. Never satisfied, a Benkei acolyte will seek to push himself and those
around him to impossible levels of heroism.

Cephas Acolyte: An acolyte who follows Cephas will be known as a fierce defender of the Truth. Should
those around him struggle in the midst of a battle, he will renew their vigor with his uplifting exhortations and his sword.

Justinian Acolyte: Adorned in armor of gold, a chaplain who follows Justinian will become a proponent of
swift justice. Favoring rapid deployments to quickly bring an end to blasphemers, Justinian acolytes are known
for their unconventional, yet linear thinking.

Other heroes of the Apocalypse Lords

Kensai, Sword saint
Li, Blademaster
Han
Elijah
Gideon
Yoshi
Deacon Stone
Deacon Bond <forwarded to the Death Watch>
Posted Image

"All those rumors about us being intolerant and stubborn really just evolved from our history. We're actually just a fun bunch of guys who enjoy burning witches" - Anon

#2
Sigismund Himself

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Moving this over to the Liber where it will get more feedback.

#3
utilityzero

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you're creating a chapter that is supposed to do the job of the ordo hereticus and the SoB? not to mention, i thought the 13th black crusade was a relatively recent thing, so wouldn't that make it after the 26th founding?
1% of people know that answer to, "What's the F.T.W. stand for?" You're not one of them.
8% of teenagers dont listen to rap and 2% havnt tried pot OR drinking... and an even smaller percentage of people actually feel the need to bolster their own self-esteem by putting a spin on being rhythmicly challenged and having no social life.
100% of your base are belong to us.
50% of marines apparently get lost in the warp. If only the guy who came up with that plot had gotten lost in the warp first.

#4
Brother Scythe

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Well the idea is interesting there are several very big fluff lines you have crossed.

1) The Ecclesiarchy is never allowed a force of "men at arms" due to the Age of Apostasy, as such this would never happen from the High Lords or the Inquisitions point of view.

2) They are doing the exact job of the Ordo Herticius and the Sisters of Battle(The Inquisition hunting the cells down, and the Sisters being the cleansing flame used to destroy them)

3) The 13th Black Crusade happened in 999.M41, it is now roughly 006.M42, this means the chapter was created in under 6 years, which while not only impossible doesn't make sense. The last founding(the 26th)was in the mid 700's.M41 as such this chapter cannot simply exist.

You need to seriously go over your work and make it work fluffwise.
QUOTE (By Leethal)
The Holy Inquisition of the Imperium of Man. Blowing up Planets for any reason since M32.

#5
Rival

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It needs reworking, but focus less on the dates and more on what they do. There is a reason the SoB are the chamber militant of the OH and the SM aren't.
Always forgive your enemies, nothing annoys them so much.
-Oscar Wilde

#6
Honda

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Interesting.

Just so that you don't think that I am being combative about the fluff, but I went through a vetting process back in 2005 for my fluff. Yes, the idea was unconventional and I did make quite a few mods from the original version, but once I got a reasonable explanation for the chapter from those that were evaluating the content, I "froze" the design and moved on.

All this work took place prior to the big crash. However, I did save archive files of the thread for reference. If someone could tell me how to make that available for viewing. However, it was not my intention to post this up again so that it would be vetted with a new group. Not that I don't appreciate your comments, but I originally posted this thread in the Librarium because I thought that was where finished articles were supposed to be posted.

So, I apologize if this got off to the wrong start and I wasted anyone's time.

As I said above, if someone can tell me how to post a .mht file so that it could be viewable, I would be glad to append it to this thread.

Cheers,
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#7
Heru

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Not that I don't appreciate your comments, but I originally posted this thread in the Librarium because I thought that was where finished articles were supposed to be posted.

And the Librarium staff felt that it wasn't finished enough to be published with them, which is why they sent you here to be "re-vetted" as you put it (which is what Sigmund should have said).

Unfortunatley the posters above are right, much of the fluff just doesn't work in the current 40k Universe (violation of the "decree passive"*, a Chapter Founded outside of the Founding system that wasn't setup by GW). So I'm not sure exactly what kind of people vetted it the first time round to miss such serious issues...

*= The Ecclesiarchy would get told to "shove it" by the High Lords if they petitioned for a Chapter to be made, especially outside of a Founding and in violation of the Codex Astartes (Chaplains don't led newly Founded Chapters especially not Ecclesiarchy trained Chaplains)** and Decree Passive.

**= Chaplains may end up in charge over time (ie when all the other senior officers are killed somehow), but never when a Chapter is newly Founded.


Now if you'd said the Chapter had been Founded after an earlier Black Crusade in an established Founding, and had eventually reverted to their Chaplains leading the Chapter because it was one of the rare few that actually worshipped the Emperor as a God and the best way to serve him in their minds was to follow the ones closest to him (the Chaplains). Then I could see them sending their Chaplains to be trained by the Ecclesiarchy (which side steps both the Codex Astartes new Foundling violation and the Decree Passive - seeing as the Astartes came to the Ecclesiarchy).

Edited by Heru Talon, 11 September 2008 - 10:16 PM.

My Chapters (Blue) & Traitors (Red):
gallery_20677_1567_12051.jpg
1st Row: Falcon Knights, Darkwatch, Silver Scorpions, Phantom Hounds, Onyx Warlords, Wicked Gods, Wolves of Horus, The Blight, The Bloodborn
2nd Row: Iron Raptors, Immortals, Imperial Monarchs, Starbreakers, The Shadow Kings, The Fallen Lords, Black Wasps, Black Oracles, Dream Eaters

#8
Honda

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And the Librarium staff felt that it wasn't finished enough to be published with them, which is why they sent you here to be "re-vetted" as you put it (which is what Sigmund should have said).

Unfortunatley the posters above are right, much of the fluff just doesn't work in the current 40k Universe (violation of the "decree passive"*, a Chapter Founded outside of the Founding system that wasn't setup by GW). So I'm not sure exactly what kind of people vetted it the first time round to miss such serious issues...


Tubal, Wulfen Icon, Nine Breaker, Zhivago, circa Jan 2005.

Not saying they are the experts, but they were the major "vetters" at the time as I remember. Also I understand that the fluff isn't Main stream, but that we eventually felt that a reasonable explanation was provided. One of the biggest issues at the time, was that I was creating a chapter that would exist in the future and what would the ramifications of that course would be. I was hoping that as the timeline advanced, that eventually the wave of time would pass me by and that even by a century or two, my chapter could be stated as having existed.

I want to assure everyone that I did not embark on the story of my chapter just because I had a half baked idea (well, it sort of started that way), but through introducing the story to this community I discovered that there were "rules" (i.e. canon). To the extent that I could bend my original concept to fit canon, I did. I wanted a chapter that was led by Chaplains and I wanted it to focus on counter-insurgency. I accept that the story may not fit completely within the boundaries of accepted canon.

If it is your general opinion, the Keepers of the Librarium, that the article is not suitable for that location, I will understand and accept your ruling. I'm a big boy and this is after all, just a hobby. However, I have been operationg on a set of assumptions for over three years now and having become comfortable with them, will continue telling their story as laid out.



*= The Ecclesiarchy would get told to "shove it" by the High Lords if they petitioned for a Chapter to be made, especially outside of a Founding and in violation of the Codex Astartes (Chaplains don't led newly Founded Chapters especially not Ecclesiarchy trained Chaplains)** and Decree Passive.


I understand that the request would meet with resistance from THLoT. I attempted to come up with a reasonable explanation, assuming collusion at high levels to support the premise. Maybe it isn't strong enough an explanation. I admit that I haven't spent enough time in the canon to come up with something better.

**= Chaplains may end up in charge over time (ie when all the other senior officers are killed somehow), but never when a Chapter is newly Founded.


Fair enough. The first go around, no one mentioned this kind of a restraint.

Now if you'd said the Chapter had been Founded after an earlier Black Crusade in an established Founding, and had eventually reverted to their Chaplains leading the Chapter because it was one of the rare few that actually worshipped the Emperor as a God and the best way to serve him in their minds was to follow the ones closest to him (the Chaplains).


Again, a reasonable possibility, but to explain part of my intent, I have to go back to just after the EoT. This was my perception at the time, but there seemed to be quite a bit of "enjoyment" over the fact that the various anti-Imperial factions had kicked the Imperium in the teeth. There was a lot of discussions on various threads/forums about the end of Man. At the time I was playing mostly Tau. For some reason, that "attitude", plus my preferences to cheer for underdogs manifested itself in the creation of my chapter...along with my newly found zealousness to fight the enemies of man...and to prevail. I can't tell you how annoying I find it to have this current phase called "The Time of Ending". I think it is much too early to give in and will attempt, to the best of my ability and my limited means, fight the good fight. So although a previous crusade might make the story fit better with the current timeline, my whole reason for creating the chapter was due to the results of the 13th Black Crusade.

Then I could see them sending their Chaplains to be trained by the Ecclesiarchy (which side steps both the Codex Astartes new Foundling violation and the Decree Passive - seeing as the Astartes came to the Ecclesiarchy).


Not to be too picky here, but in fact am I not doing that in the story, except that you the reader know the underlying reason for this taking place vs. the surface reason for it occurring?

Pt. I of saved - original transcript (I do not appear to have saved Pt. II where the final sort of "Ok" was arrived at):

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HondaPosted: Jan 16 2005, 08:11 PM


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Ok, by way of introduction, I have been a lurker for awhile, but I'm not a
newbie to GW (been collecting their stuff since the mid-80's). I finally
decided to start my SM chapter and build an army. I thought about going
with an existing chapter, but got caught up in the "Design your own..."
and would like to offer for evaluation the defendability of my fluff.

In the days following the aftermath of Abaddon's 13th Crusade, a group of
humbled minds from the highest echelons of the Ecclesiarchy struggled to
come to grips with the blow that had been dealt.

They studied in detail the accounts where the loss of several planets in
the Cadian system were due to the direct result of small, but inflammatory
seeds of heresy planted by contingents of the Alpha Legion as well as the
extremely dangerous Dark Apostles of the Word Bearers. These seeds
separated untold millions of souls from the Emperors' blessing and as a
result, a new hatred was born.

The leaders, now named the Apocalypse Council, acknowledged that it is a
more efficient use of resources to deal with heresy in its infancy, rather
than waiting for the festering cancer to engulf an entire planet or worse
yet, an entire system. They also came to the conclusion that had the
resources to combat the rebellions been more focused, then the disastrous
consequences of the Black Crusade would not have occurred.

A decision was made.

Geneseed samples sent to Terra for purity checks were "acquired" by
various mechanisms and used to begin the secret founding of a new Space
Marine Chapter. This new chapter would be created to enforce the
directives and decrees of the Ecclesiarchy. It was agreed that the new
chapter would remain secret, lest its more established brethren protest
its creation and charter. To provide a suitable disguise during
operational activity, the new livery was modeled after a known chapter. It
was expected that this disguise should result in an increased number of
sightings of the "Omega Marines", though in areas not necessarily known as
being in their sphere of operations. The chance for exposure was
evaluated and the risk considered acceptable.

The Apocalypse Lords were created as a rapid strike force to support the
application of light forces in pin point attacks on suspected cult leaders
or Word Bearer acolytes. The chapter colors represent their Puritan
outlook. All questions and perspectives can be resolved down to the most
simple of components.

In their world, all things are black and White, Good or Evil, For the
Emperor, or against. There is no "in-between". Their charter is the
elimination of heresy within, no matter what form it may take.

Chapter Motto: "Apocalypse has come, let the End begin"

Traits:

Zealous—”Blessed be the Warrior”
Aspire to Glory

Now I did read the list of do's and don'ts on the other topics, so I
understand having the Ecclesiarchy found a SM chapter is a break. What I
am not sure of given how I've tried to explain this in my fluff is, using
Kill Team jargon, did I break a "mutable" law of fluff or an "immutable"
law of fluff.

If you guys feel that it's "immutable" then I'll most likely have to
address that. The idea being that this is a new "naive" and somewhat
inexperienced chapter, guided by fervor and faith more than established
military doctrine. To compensate and simulate this effect, I will limit
myself in my troop selections. Without going into exact points, I would
expect my list to look something like:

3 x Scouts (on foot)
3 x Tacticals (in Rhino's)
1-2 x Assault w/jetpacks
4 x Landspeeders of various flavors
HQ's would only consist of Chaplains

No Dreads for now, armor, or artillery. I've decided to against taking
Librarians and Commanders to support the fluff (realizing that this may
cause problems in real games) realizing that the chapter may only be 150 -
200 years old.


The list is not intended to be a GT grade tournament list, just something
for me to have fun with to support local campaigns. It is also expected to
be a fun modeling exercise.

The livery is white and black, vertically bisecting the trooper, with
white on the left side. The shoulder pad rims are highlighted Tin Bitz to
look like bronze. The chapter symbol is the greek letter Omega, which is
displayed on the left shoulder. The motto, "Let the End Begin" is overlaid
on the Omega. I'm still working on what will be on the right shoulder pad
as, I want some convention, but at the same time, taking operational
security into account, don't want to go too standard. I'd be interested in
any ideas you might have regarding that.

I want the livery to "resemble" the Omega Marines (because I like that
scheme), not look like them, thus adding to the confusion of any
observations. The chapter is intended to have a stealth profile.

The home planet would be Terra, though there would be access to Strike
Cruisers for transportation, but no Battle Barges. I forsee cooperation
and support of Puritan Inquisitors who may or may not be aware of who the
Apocalypse Lords really are. I suppose they might be looked upon as a
Loyalist type of Alpha Legion. This isn't too coincidental as the AL are
my Chaos legion of choice, but I'll talk about them later in another post.

So, I've a lot of random thoughts and images that I've been collecting and
attempting to gel into a cohesive story line.

As far as the real modeling goes, I've put together a SM Scout Kill Team
that I will post some pictures of when I can.

So I offer up to the sage minds of this board, "The Apocalypse Lords".







--------------------

Trumpet Six - Scout Team Leader
Apocalypse Lords

ZhivagoPosted: Jan 16 2005, 08:48 PM


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Now, if you want your fluff to fit the corporate one, I would suggest few
modifications.


QUOTE
Geneseed samples sent to Terra for purity checks were "acquired" by
various mechanisms and used to begin the secret founding of a new
Space Marine Chapter.



I believe they are actually sent to Mars, as the Magos Biologi work there.
But that is minor issue.


QUOTE
secret founding



Now this is where it gets nifty.

You really can't secretly create a chapter secretly. Even if one could
steal gene-seed, one would need the help of adpets of Mars to cultivate
the marines, and they are not helping ecclesiarchy willingly. They are
rivals after all. Machine god/Emperor rivalry.

Secondly, the equipment. Where they can find 1000 suits of power armour,
the ships for the chapter, the heavy weapons and so on? Power armour
technology is rare. Okey,sisters do have powered armour, but it lacks
several life supporting systems which can only be used by the marine black
carpace.

And where can one find this kind of equipment? On forge worlds. Governed
by adepts of mars.

Thirdly, there is such thing as Decree Passive, which forbids Ecclesiarchy
to have any men udner arms. Marines must be men, so by using male combat
force, they would violate their dedication to emperor.

Fourthly, well matter of Librarians. Most chapter use them, and
ecclesiarchy seems to have small problems with psykers. (this is one again
a minor matter)

Also, some of the ecclesiarchy view even marines as mutants.

In short, even if some members of ecclesiarchy would be willing to break
decree passive, they would find it impossible to gather required
equipment, as all required equipment comes from forge worlds, by the
contracts between high lords and adepts of Mars.

Ecclesiarchy has no ships of it's own, as it relies solely on Imperial
Navy (See decree passive), so theese mysterius marines would need to be
transported on navy ships, which would make them pretty non-secret.
Stealing ships for Eccleiarchil use would be preety detectable too.

Now, how to justify some of that fluff text, well you could claim that
some young chapter came upon theese atrocities and took stopping them as
their duty, and thus changed the way the fight.

Cheers.


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the other is to get it." - Socrates.


TubalPosted: Jan 16 2005, 10:56 PM


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There are some loopholes you can use:
While the Ecclesiarchy (a spelling mouthful ^_^ can't "realistically" found
a chapter of their own their boss (High Ecclesiarch? Who knows?) is a
permanent member of the High Lords of Terra so they may be able to push
through a founding if they put their minds to it.
Secondly, all marine chapters are more or less secret in that most
imperial citizens aren't exactly well informed. A determined inquisitor
with the right clearance might be able to find out that they've been
created but as long as they keep a low profile they won't be easily
recognized. Certainly guard officers, traitor or otherwise, won't know the
difference between two chapters unless he's already familiar with them.


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SomeRandomGuyPosted: Jan 16 2005, 11:15 PM


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It sounds like you really ought to just play Gray Knights - a secretive
Space Marine chapter whose primary purpose is to hunt down and destroy the
forces of Chaos wherever they appear. They are part of the Ordo Malleus
rather than the Ecclesiarchy, but as you already know, the Ecclesiarchy
don't and can't have any Space Marine Chapters. The Gray Knights are also
much more of an elite strike force than regular Space Marines, so they
seem like a natural choice for the army you want to field.

Officially, only the High Lords of Terra can create chapters.
Unofficially, you can do wahtever you want - it's your fluff. However,
after the 200th ultra-super-badass ninja chapter formed "in secret" by the
Dark angels, most players (or at least most players on this message board)
are more than a little tired of this fluff device. It's not just a
violation of official fluff, it's an overused cliche.

Merkava Mk2Posted: Jan 17 2005, 12:41 AM


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QUOTE (SomeRandomGuy @ Jan 16 2005, 11:15 PM)
Grey Knights Grey Knights Grey Knights


Yeah, GK are a strike force. The Alpha Legion works through creeping
subversion. There's no reason a {traditionally founded} new chapter
couldn't be alarmed by imperial society's vulnerablity, or even be
betrayed by a population they were defending. The Apocalypse Lords could
be part of a splinter cell scenario, running amok as anti-sedition agents,
instead of the big boss showdowns of the 666th chapter.

Of course, that's the Ordo Hereticus's job, and the only reasons it works
with AL is that they have a native population to undermine, and that as a
legion their organization and resources are more that of a sovreign entity
than the specific role of a loyalist chapter, even without their use of
"operatives."

With proper writing, those are minor caveats. In the end, its a good idea
with a good name. I'm interested in the chapter name, which might imply
some kind of ragnarok scenario in the chapter's theology. Keeping mind
that one of the reason its a bad idea to associate astartes with
ministorum is that many chapters are bizarre cults, its an aspect thats
generally underdeveloped.


QUOTE
Officially, only the High Lords of Terra can create chapters.
Unofficially, you can do wahtever you want - it's your fluff.
However, after the 200th ultra-super-badass ninja chapter formed "in
secret" by the Dark angels, most players (or at least most players
on this message board) are more than a little tired of this fluff
device. It's not just a violation of official fluff, it's an
overused cliche.

I'm a little tired of this being pointed out - not that it doesn't need to
be done. These aren't ninja dark angels in the way you're implying, but I
do think it's cool that they sneak around and push demagogues down the
stairs.


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HondaPosted: Jan 17 2005, 01:22 AM


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Ok,

This is good feedback. If I could summarize and add:

1. I am breaking an "immutable" law of chapter creation, trying to align
with the Ecclesiarchy. So I'll think on this and modify.

2. I did think about the GK tie-in, but they already have a charter and
the Apocalypse Lords were geared more towards anti-insurgency. I know,
it's a bit of a fine line, considering the most prevalent source (i.e.
Chaos), but I don't mind tap dancing my way through that one.

3. Ok, understand the equipment issue and all the related logistics. It
sounds more like I'm trying to say, "I have a new secret computer that
uses Intel chips and nobody knows that...except that everyone knows you
can only get Intel chips from...<drum roll> you got it.

4. On the comment regarding a member of the Ecclesiarchy being a High Lord
of Terra, I wasn't aware of that. That could be handy for later on. I'll
keep that in mind.

5. Apocalypse, the word. The original incantation of the chapter was (and
this was several years ago) as an "end times" chapter, the heralds of the
end of the Imperium. I had since decided to bring them over to the good
side, and vaguely remember something from the RT days about a "secret" (I
know, the word is overused, I'll find something else) faction that
believed the Emperor would return to lead a final crusade. I think that
fluff has been dropped because they used names like Illuminati, Sensei (ah
yes, the good ol' days), which were difficult to sustain given some of the
new directions. So I could bring that aspect back and instead of being a
"secret" chapter, they could just be unknown to others because they are
the new kids on the block. I'm guessing that a new founding isn't going to
have a press conference, ala NFL new franchise.

Ok, I'll let this feedback simmer and get back to you in a little while.
Thanx for the help!




--------------------

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Apocalypse Lords

Nine_BreakerPosted: Jan 17 2005, 02:02 AM


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QUOTE
No Dreads for now, armor, or artillery. I've decided to against
taking Librarians and Commanders to support the fluff (realizing
that this may cause problems in real games) realizing that the
chapter may only be 150 - 200 years old.



The 13th Black Crusade started in 999.M41 ended in 999.M41 or 001.M42...
need I say more?


QUOTE
Geneseed samples sent to Terra for purity checks were "acquired" by
various mechanisms and used to begin the secret founding of a new
Space Marine Chapter.



Gene-seed is send to Mars, not Terra... And it takes the rescources of the
Adeptus Mechanicus to start the founding of a chapter, so maybe have a few
of them working for this Apocalypse Council.


QUOTE
The home planet would be Terra, though there would be access to
Strike Cruisers for transportation, but no Battle Barges.



First, homeworld as Terra is not cool, I'd suggest making them fleet
based. And I'm not sure how they'd get strike cruisers since they weren't
"officaly founded", so I'd make it so they had salavaged Chaos and
Imperial ships for a fleet instead.


QUOTE
Secondly, the equipment. Where they can find 1000 suits of power
armour, the ships for the chapter, the heavy weapons and so on?
Power armour technology is rare. Okey,sisters do have powered
armour, but it lacks several life supporting systems which can only
be used by the marine black carpace.



He has a point... maybe your marines would use a crude version of power
armor that didn't have all the life support systems and such.
_______________________________
I'm starting to think it would be easier to have a rougish (not completely
rouge so they are hunted by the =][= though) chapter that was officaly
founded but changed its ways over time to what you're invisioning... And
works closely with the Ordo Hereticus and Ecclesiarchy.

This post has been edited by Nine_Breaker on Jan 17 2005, 02:06 AM


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TubalPosted: Jan 17 2005, 02:32 PM


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QUOTE (Honda @ Jan 17 2005, 02:22 AM)
[snip]
1. I am breaking an "immutable" law of chapter creation, trying to
align with the Ecclesiarchy. So I'll think on this and modify

.....

5. Apocalypse, the word. The original incantation of the chapter was
(and this was several years ago) as an "end times" chapter, the
heralds of the end of the Imperium.
[/snip]


Aligning with the Ecclesiarchy isn't too bad, they usually don't like SM
chapters since they don't believe in the Emperor as a god but as a great
man and their creator. It's easy to see how a younger chapter might be a
little more zealous than the old established ones, especially if they have
weak links to their primarch. Many chapters don't know who they were
founded from and so they don't know who their primarch was and can't
worship him.
The Redemptionists believe that the Emperor will lead them on the last
crusade or something, (I'm a little vague about this) they are a sect
within the Imperial cult known mostly from the game Necromunda but they
are spread throughout the Imperium. Your chapter could have a variation of
this and is working to keep planets loyal more than actually keeping them
safe, since the last war is coming soon anyway.
That kind of legend is not uncommon with other chapters, the Space Wolves
believe that Leman Russ will return for the last war for example, even if
they don't think it will be tomorrow.



QUOTE (Nine_Breaker @ Jan 17 2005, 03:02 AM)
QUOTE
The home planet would be Terra, though there would be access
to Strike Cruisers for transportation, but no Battle Barges.



First, homeworld as Terra is not cool, I'd suggest making them fleet
based. And I'm not sure how they'd get strike cruisers since they
weren't "officaly founded", so I'd make it so they had salavaged
Chaos and Imperial ships for a fleet instead.


Terra isn't a good idea, and most of the Sol system is already covered
with fleet bases and secret facilities. They could be based on a system
very close to Terra though, there should be plenty of dead worlds and
asteroid belts where they will be left alone.
Getting ships should be a little easier, in the latest Fanatic magazine
they describe rouge traders a little, and how they can get a hold of ships
in different ways. If even a rouge trader can get his hands on a capital
ship a space marine chapter with links to the Ecclesiarchy shouldn't have
any problems. They could use regular navy ships instead of space marine
cruisers, as they are easier to get a hold of and it'll help with the low
profile too.


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Middle English emperour, from Old French empereor, from Latin imperator,
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Merkava Mk2Posted: Jan 18 2005, 01:51 AM


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Ok, here's a chapter.  They get founded, they're codex, or whatever.
 They find a world devastated by war, oh noes.  They
investigate; horror of horrors, it was the native population what did this
to itself, with such like as sons killing fathers and crying children
being sacrificed, and the music is by John Williams.  Now it's ten
years on, with familiar faces in new roles and whatever, and they are
reconnoitering cults in various hive worlds which will there after be
descended upon with most meat and righteous retribution, so that the
imperium may be pure when it is judged by the Emperor at the end times.

and I win with schwarzenegger idomaticalistcalisizzlem


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distasteful?

HondaPosted: Jan 18 2005, 02:29 AM


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Merkava (cool looking tank, BTW), but ya lost me.

Question(s): Could someone summarize briefly (or point me to a link) that
describes how the High Lords of Terra decide to start a chapter? Do we
know if individuals just decide to start a new franchise because it looks
like a good market? How is the decision made or is that something we don't
know?

Is the decision made by committee, somebody with a grudge, or what's
behind Door Number 3? I would think that it would have to be some sort of
committee to keep one lord from using all the resources to build chapters,
but that's just me shooting in the dark.

So given a little time to think about this, I think what I'd like to keep
is:

1. Brand new chapter, focused on counter-insurgency (i.e. Alpha Legion,
Word Bearers, LatD), hence focus on "light" forces like scouts, tacticals,
assault, and Landspeeders. Does triggering their inception due to setbacks
during the EoT seem feasible?

2. Puritan outlook, zealous.

3. Gotta keep the color scheme.

4. Space based to facilitate rapid deployment. Leaning towards the Cadian
system as the operational area due to #1.

5. Having a tie in to a High Lord who once was a member of the
Ecclesiarchy seems feasible, according to some, so that could add some
background.

6. Chapter will be led by Chaplains, no Librarians, or big tough Force
Commanders for now.

7. When I get to it, they will be accompanied by an Inquisitor on
occasion.

Ok so far?

Thanx for the course corrections...




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Apocalypse Lords

Wulfen_IconPosted: Jan 18 2005, 02:57 AM


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There are ways of implementing an Ecclesiarchy-controlled chapter into
fluff.

This "Council" decides they need a force. SO they get the High ecceslarch
to propose a new Chapter be founded to preserve the purity of the regions
that were touched by chaos(The AL/WB) but mention nothing about their
being in control of it. The Ecclesiarchy takes control of the more menial
parts of founding a chapter(Recruitment, beuracracy, etc.) and through
this, implement a shadow system where the Ecclesiarchy are the
pupeteers(Perhaps... double the amount of Chaplains..). The high lords are
happy, the Mars-nuts are fine, because they don't know what's going on and
voila!

If the Ecclesiarchy wanted to found a chapter directly and openly, then
that would be a problem, but i think they could have one made in the
shadows of beruacracy.
Sincerely,
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TubalPosted: Jan 18 2005, 08:41 AM


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Hokay... here's my answer, by point:

1. the EoT campaign was VERY recent in the 40k universe, you'd either have
to put them in the "future" or use a smaller chaos uprising as a base. An
earlier black crusade is possible, but I think it's about a thousand
years, or less, between them (13th crusade after 10k years) so they won't
be quite as new then. But then you could write some fluff on how they took
part in the EoT campaign.

2. NOT a problem.
3. Most marine chapters have big problems with hiding their colours
completely, but as long as you write some good fluff about it you should
be okay.
4. Not a problem.
5. Works with some fluff backing it up.
6. Again, not a problem with good fluff.
7. Not a problem

So, in my opinion, you have some good ideas that will need a bit of
creative fluff to work, but not a lot of serious problems. Putting the
chapters founding after the EoT and playing with them in what would be
considered the "future" in the "current" 40k timeline sounds a little
funny but there are a lot of people who are doing armies set in the past
after all. (the Horus Heresy era mostly) Just make sure they all have
modern armour :D


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MiasmaPosted: Jan 18 2005, 12:35 PM


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Okay, I don't think this has been mentioned....
Why are you taking aspire to glory? You only have a single trait!

However, the rest of the fluff-stuff's just grand.


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#9
Heru

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If it is your general opinion, the Keepers of the Librarium, that the article is not suitable for that location, I will understand and accept your ruling. I'm a big boy and this is after all, just a hobby. However, I have been operationg on a set of assumptions for over three years now and having become comfortable with them, will continue telling their story as laid out.

None of us here are keepers of the Librarium except Sigmund, I was making a logical assumption based upon something he wrote before hand (something along the lines of "if it's not up to Librarium standards and we think it needs work we send it to the Liber").


*= The Ecclesiarchy would get told to "shove it" by the High Lords if they petitioned for a Chapter to be made, especially outside of a Founding and in violation of the Codex Astartes (Chaplains don't led newly Founded Chapters especially not Ecclesiarchy trained Chaplains)** and Decree Passive.


I understand that the request would meet with resistance from THLoT. I attempted to come up with a reasonable explanation, assuming collusion at high levels to support the premise. Maybe it isn't strong enough an explanation. I admit that I haven't spent enough time in the canon to come up with something better.

In general if a Chapter is to be Founded it isn't a special case, (unless GW decides to play their "GW is God" card like with the Disciples of Caliban" which had the Supreme Grand Master of the Dark Angels - leader of the collective Unforgiven [the DA + all their successors according to recent fluff] petition the High Lords for a one of out of Founding, Chapter creation. But that was Astartes business), majoritively Chapters are created in Foundings (of which there were 26 proper Foundings) alongside other Chapters.

Not only do you break Founding protocol asking to have a Chapter created outside of a founding but the Decree Passive gets dented (seeing as Ecclesiarchy is pushing for this Chapter) and the Codex Astartes violated (ie Chapters are the business of the Adeptus Astartes they can't raise their own armies and also can't be under the direct control of anyone else except in the case of the Ordos Militant).


**= Chaplains may end up in charge over time (ie when all the other senior officers are killed somehow), but never when a Chapter is newly Founded.


Fair enough. The first go around, no one mentioned this kind of a restraint.

In reality it depends upon a number of factors, if the parent Chapter who provided the Geneseed and the Veteran Cadre to start-up this new Chapter is led by Chaplains then it's possible the new Chapter would start out led by Chaplains, but seeing as you've made issue that there is no real parent Chapter to provide the necessary Veterans their make-up would be defined by the Codex Astartes instead (that would be the High Lords / Ad Mech's guide for the Chapter).


Then I could see them sending their Chaplains to be trained by the Ecclesiarchy (which side steps both the Codex Astartes new Foundling violation and the Decree Passive - seeing as the Astartes came to the Ecclesiarchy).


Not to be too picky here, but in fact am I not doing that in the story, except that you the reader know the underlying reason for this taking place vs. the surface reason for it occurring?

Actually that line has to be read in concert with the rest of what I wrote for it to be different. What I was pointing out was that the Chapter at some point in it's history made the decision to send it's Chaplains to the Ecclesiarchy. The way you have it, it was the Ecclesiarchy's decision to have the Chaplains trained by them, and they had their hands on the process of the Chapter's development from the beginning. It's less forced the way I'm suggesting as it doesn't touch the Decree Passive at all.


Pt. I of saved - original transcript (I do not appear to have saved Pt. II where the final sort of "Ok" was arrived at):

Yeah that is unfortunate.



I'm starting to think it would be easier to have a rougish (not completely
rouge so they are hunted by the =][= though) chapter that was officaly
founded but changed its ways over time to what you're invisioning... And
works closely with the Ordo Hereticus and Ecclesiarchy.

Nine Breaker actually said what I've been saying now.


At the end of the day this is your Chapter and you can do with it whatever you want with it. So if you really want to get it on the Librarium as is you should probably PM Sigmund_Himself and discuss it with him.

Note: One bit I'd like to see you expand on that isn't to do with the whole rhino in a china shop issues, is the Chapter organization stuff like the Blademasters that you don't mention anywhere in the IA except in reference to Blademaster Li at the end (yes I've read your Painting thread which details what they are and what they do, but that should also be in your IA).
My Chapters (Blue) & Traitors (Red):
gallery_20677_1567_12051.jpg
1st Row: Falcon Knights, Darkwatch, Silver Scorpions, Phantom Hounds, Onyx Warlords, Wicked Gods, Wolves of Horus, The Blight, The Bloodborn
2nd Row: Iron Raptors, Immortals, Imperial Monarchs, Starbreakers, The Shadow Kings, The Fallen Lords, Black Wasps, Black Oracles, Dream Eaters

#10
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Who's this Sigmund character, you keep mentioning, Heru? :P

If it is your general opinion, the Keepers of the Librarium, that the article is not suitable for that location, I will understand and accept your ruling. I'm a big boy and this is after all, just a hobby. However, I have been operationg on a set of assumptions for over three years now and having become comfortable with them, will continue telling their story as laid out.

The issue isn't with the idea of operating a little into the future. There are other issues. With a bit more work, polish and expansion, I think it would be worthy to be put into the Librarium. But as it is, it needs a bit more. If you want, I'll try and address these either here or via PM.

As for raising those archive threads, try the Wayback Machine. It's worked for me on the B&C before with a few old tutorials.

#11
Heru

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Who's this Sigmund character, you keep mentioning, Heru? ;)

:shrug: Sigmund is easier to remember than Sigismund.
My Chapters (Blue) & Traitors (Red):
gallery_20677_1567_12051.jpg
1st Row: Falcon Knights, Darkwatch, Silver Scorpions, Phantom Hounds, Onyx Warlords, Wicked Gods, Wolves of Horus, The Blight, The Bloodborn
2nd Row: Iron Raptors, Immortals, Imperial Monarchs, Starbreakers, The Shadow Kings, The Fallen Lords, Black Wasps, Black Oracles, Dream Eaters




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