29 replies to this topic

[XKhalilX]

T

he Steel Wyverns are characterized by their extreme abhorrence of abhumans and Xenos. They believe in purity above all, and any weakness shown amongst their people is shown as a mark of deviant genetics. Their extreme xenophobia has put them in conflict on the battlefield with Imperial regiments that allow abhumans in their ranks, to the point that they will not allow any other then humans and adeptus astartes to enter the Gaul Stars of which they protect and patrol. Due to this, they have an extremely strong alliance with the Ordo Xenos, often sending battle brothers to spend time in the Deathwatch.

They pride themselves on their unyielding devotion to the Imperium and that of the Emperor of Mankind. They believe they are the inheritors of the Emperor's Great Crusade. Being isolated for so long and still clinging to their faith in the Emperor has given them a belief in their righteousness and superiority. Having their own unique form of Low Gothic that no offworlders understand further deepens their belief in what they perceive to be their “destiny of purity.” Man is the pinnacle of creation, and humankind must be defended and preserved. The chapter believes the people of Gaul are the standard for which the rest of humankind must follow.

The chapter spends equal time in training for combat as well as spiritual devotion and monasticism.

"I have noted a particular mutation of the Betchers Gland in the astartes of the Steel Wyverns. The mutation is twofold: it has allowed the marines a far more corrosive and venemous saliva then their fellow astartes of other chapters, and also allows a Steel Wyvern the ability to spit their saliva at a much greater distance and concentration.”
-Magos Biologist Rharn Upedus-

T

he genetic mutation of the Betchers Gland is seen as a gift from the Great Wyrm, blessing each astartes with a fraction of His abilities. The apothecarian of the Chapter sees this genetic deviation not as a mutation but as a step in the evolution of an astartes. Space Marine chapters throughout the Imperium have uinique abilities and appearances due to their gene-seed genetic codings and the Steel Wyverns are no exception.

The Steel Wyverns gene-seed originates from the Iron Snakes. Although their primarch is unknown as the marines of Ithaka are lost to this knowledge as well.

"The serpents of the world of Gaulthia Prime are quite impressive beasts. They are sentient animals, capable of comprehension and problem solving. In terms of sheer size, I measure them at five to nine meters, given a juvenile to senior Adult. Their wingspan correlates with their length, giving them superior flying capabilities. A note of caution: Their tails are tipped with a poisonous barb that is exquisitely sharp. They wield their barbed tails with a precision of an operating servitor. The savages of the planet call them wyrms and believe the wyrms are some kind of manifestation of the Omnissiah. Machine made flesh? Peculiar indeed."
-Magos Biologist Rharn Upedus-

"I have seen a sacredness placed upon the winged serpents on this world.. They seem to believe they are a manifestation of our God-Emperor. Even after psyco-indoctrination, the adeptus astartes recruited from the planet still carry on this theological anomaly. Absurd to say the least, yet they remain convicted whole heartedly to the Emperor as the manifestation of their Great Wyrm. Any sign of heretical taint will be noted and recorded immediately, though I see no cause for alarm as of yet..."-Inquisitor Dravun-

"The Great Wyrm that is He on Terra will call for you my brothers. The End War will come forth, and our blades will be drawn under the wings of His protection. For we are His chosen, faithful and pure. It is He who will witness firsthand our undying faith in His name. Our blood will soak the grounds upon which He walks, and He will remember our names. Each and every one of us will He call upon, and we will answer forth in earnest. For He is the Great Wyrm manifest into human perfection. I say to you all, have faith and remain pure, for the End War is near and the flight of the Great Wyrm has begun....”
-First Hospitaller Grand Master Njahl, entry in The Book of Lords, M35

T

he Serpents of Gaulthia Prime, known as Wyrms to the planet's inhabitants are considered holy to the people, believing them a manifestation of the Emperor. The chapter reveres the Emperor as the Ancient Wyrm prophesized by their people. His Great Crusade symbolizes the Great Wyrm's long flight, His blade, the glistening fangs of the Great Wyrm, His strength and compassion, the scales and powerful build of the Great Wyrm. The Emperor is the epitome of the Great Wyrm manifest into the perfect human form. They believe sternly in the End War, when the Great Wyrm prepares for His final flight into battle, to vanquish those who oppose his righteousness. Those whose faith is steady and firm will be brought under His wings, to fight with purity of heart where he will bear witness to their glorious deaths in his name.

This faith in the Great Wyrm carries each battle brother in their daily lives. The wyrms and their homeworld are so sacred and holy that each marine carries a vial of soil fom Gaulthia Prime.

Upon landing on any planet they will empty some of the soil from their vial as they believe the land is impure and made up of filth. By sprinkling the soil of Gaulthia Prime, the marines believe the land has been purified and worthy of having the battle brothers set foot upon it. In matters of rapid strike, marines will shatter their vials on the ground upon disembarking out of a rhino or drop pod. Extreme measures will call for a thunderhawk or an oribital strike to reign down several shells of soil from their homeworld to impact upon the planet's surface, thereby the world is consecrated and deemed worthy for the astartes to set foot upon it.

They believe mankind is the pinnacle of the universe. Of the human race, the chapter believes the people of Gaulthia Prime are the epitome of perfection. Their culture and dialect of Gaul Gothic is glorified through everything the chapter acts upon. As the defenders of the Emperor's faithful, they sternly believe in defending the Imperium and its people. They consider themselves the elite of the adeptus astartes, providing help to the helpless and hope to the hopeless. Faith in the Emperor drives them. They live and die by the words of the Great Emperor of mankind. Because of this sense of duty and faith, Chaplains play an extremely important role within the chapter, often leading campaigns in place of Captains.

For the brothers of the Steel Wyverns, all xenos and mutants are a stain to be cleansed from the stars. Their hatred for all aliens stems in part from their enslavement under the Dark Eldar. It is the Dark Ones that the Steel Wyverns despise most of all. Any reports of Dark Eldar threat to Imperial space are immediately answered by the Steel Wyverns if possible.

A

great distance from any major system, the Astra Gallica was lost to the Imperium by the massive warp storms that marked the Dark Age of Technology. In M32, the sector and its primary planet of Gaulthia Prime fell to the Kabal of the Blood Thorn of the Dark Eldar who conquered the world when the Kingdoms were low on manpower due to internal wars. The Dark Eldar destroyed many of the minor kingdoms and forced the major kingdoms in subjugation and slavery. For over three thousand years, Gaulthia Prime would be under the oppression of the Dark Eldar, enslaving the planet's humans to be sent back to Commorragh as slaves and gladiators.

Early in the thirty-fifth millenium of man, seven kingdoms of Gaulthia Prime formed an alliance against the Dark Eldar. This alliance became known as the Council of Wyrms, led by the the High Wyrm Lord Auleric. They waged a resistance against the Dark Ones who ravaged the settlements built into the Great Cliffs and enslaved the people of the planet.

Shortly after the forming of the Council, the Imperium rediscovered the Astra Gallica. The High Lords of Terra ordered the closest adeptus astartes to reclaim the worlds in the name of the Emperor. The Iron Snakes answered the call. Chapter Master Seydon sent ten fratery squads under Captain Mikos to liberate the sector. It took over a year for the Iron Snakes to reach the distant Astra Gallica system. It took an additional six months to liberate the outlying planets before the battle brothers of Ithaka could take Gaulthia Prime. The Snakes made landfall and High King Auleric welcomed the prescence of the Emperor's finest. The warriors of Gaulthia Prime aiding the Iron Snakes were victorious, though they sustained incredible losses. Lord Auleric was fatally injured in the victory over the alien menace. Upon his deathbed, it was pronounced that his young son Ulthor, would be crowned High King.

After the liberation of the Astra Gallica, The High Lords of Terra ordered for creation of a new chapter to watch over the distant Astra Gallica. The Iron Snakes who helped liberate the system were charged with the recruiting process amongst the young and fiery humans seeking revenge against Xenos for three thousand years of oppression. Given equipment and supplies to arm a battle company, they would spend the next several decades recruiting and training the new marines. The first recruits would be given the gene seed of the fallen Iron Snakes that defended their world. Thus, the brothers would live on and continue the fight for the Emperor.

The Iron Snakes felt a bond with people of Gaulthia Prime. The Wyrms of the world were akin to the sea serpents of Ithaka. They saw kinship with these young warriors of Gaulthia Prime. They saw the faith young Lord Ulthor had in his people and the respect given to him though a mere boy. His wisdom stretched far beyond his youth, and Captain Mikos of the Iron Snakes decided that Ulthor would become the master of the new chapter. The people clung to tradition, and for Gaulthia Prime, it was submission to their High King.

In the early 35th Millenium, It was to be Ulthor, the young High King of the Gauls that would become the first Chapter Master of the new space marine chapter. The coming years would see the sons of the planet recruited to fill the ranks of the new chapter under their High King and newly elevated Chapter Master.

Ulthor saw his frail boyish body grow into superhuman proportions. He believed the Great Wyrm shined his blessed light upon he and his new battle brothers, both old and new. Upon the Cliffs of Nefilhymn, where the Great Fortress Monestary was to be built he gazed upon the horizon of his homeworld. Drifting through the ageless skies was a Wyrm of immense proportions, one that embodied the vision of the Great Wyrm of his people. He shouted forth the Prayers of Calling, and the Wyrm turned its head to see Ulthor upon the cliff. It stretched its wings forth in a glorious display of strength and size, and dove down, disappearing between the great cliffs of its world. It was then Ulthor envisioned the Great Crusade of the Emperor of Mankind thousands of years ago. It was there, upon the jagged cliffs of Nefilhymn, ancestral home of his kingship where he pronounced the name of the chapter. Thus, the Steel Wyverns were born....


Nefilhymn, Fortress Monestary of the Steel Wyverns.

G

aulthia Prime is the homeworld of the Steel Wyverns. It is a feudal world covered in oceans and vast mountains covering the landmasses. The inhospitable terrain has caused the people to settle within the mountainous cliffs and tundras. These ancient city-states carved out of the towering cliffs and plateaus are completely isolated from one another, thereby the only effective means to travel is long treks through the mountains and arctic tundras or by sea. The world is inhabited by large serpent like creatures known as “wyrms” to the inhabitants. The people of Gaulthia Prime view the Wyrms with deep respect and awe. They hold a primitive view that the Emperor of Mankind is a human manifestation of the Great Wyrm, creator of the “oceans above cascaded by floating lights.”

T

he chapter recruits in what is known as the Season of Gathering. Before the adeptus astartes landed upon Gaulthia Prime, the season was a time of harvest, goodwill amongst rival kingdoms, and feats of strength to declare who was the greatest champion amongst his people. As time went on, the younglings wanted to prove their manhood in such competitions. All those who could, would travel to the Great Tundra of Nefilhymn, where the gatherings traditionally take place.
Young men, from ages 8-12 would fight their peers in a savage display of brutality in hopes of one day being inducted into the ranks of their kingdoms great warrior elite known as the Wyrm Guard. Those who proved their worth were taken from their families and trained to become the savage warriors of Gaulthia Prime they dreamed to become.
Now a homeworld of a chapter of adeptus astartes; the greatest warriors of the Imperium, the younglings strive to become wyrmlings, the recruits of the Steel Wyverns. It is at the sign of every fourth calling of the Fell Moon that the Steel Wyverns will call for new recruits for the chapter.
Like their predecessors, the younglings who have proven their valor and strength will be taken by the giant men and brought to the Keep of Nefilhymn, the Fortress monestary of the Steel Wyverns. Here they will undergo their transformation from young savages of the tundras to wyrmlings in hopes of one day becoming Blooded, a full armoured battle brother.

Tomb of Lord Ulthor, First Great Wyrm Lord of the Chapter. High King of the Gauls, First Hand of the Wyrm.

Edited by XKhalilX, 21 January 2011 - 02:46 AM.

Children of Eternity Chapter

Angels of Expurgation Chapter

Steel Wyverns Chapter

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[BigJon]

Very nice read and I like how you included images of your chapters home world in your
writeup. I may have to mod mine after seeing yours. nice work.

BigJon

[brother natar]

OK, i must admit i haven't read this full IA yet, but tjought i must point something out. I will just say firstly that the bit i have read does seem really good, but i have found a problem.

he Steel Wyverns are characterized by their extreme abhorrence of abhumans and Xenos. They believe in purity above all, and any weakness shown amongst their people is shown as a mark of deviant genetics. Their extreme xenophobia has put them in conflict on the battlefield with Imperial regiments that allow abhumans in their ranks

"I have noted a particular mutation of the Betchers Gland in the astartes of the Steel Wyverns.

So they hate mutants, but are in themselves mutated. This is really hipocritical (yeah... not the best at speling ), and i can't really see how it works. This should mean that they hate themselves. Also, they have a mutation - which is normally seen to make Marines weaker/have sideaffects - that does nothing but make them more able in combat. I can see you have tried to make them more 'wyvrenlike' but if you said they're named after some creature from their homeworld that should suffice. I strongly suggest making your Marines 'pure' as far as mutations go.

Other than that it seems pretty much awesome.

[Lord Howland Greywolf]

And to forward this point, if they hate mutations why they do they have Librarian

[XKhalilX]

i wouldnt consider their Betcher Gland them being mutant. That would be saying Space wolves are mutants due to their fangs, Blood Drinkers for their blood desire, Raven Guard for their pale skin and black eyes. I wouldn't consider that being mutant, rather a genetic deviation. perhaps I should have worded that better in my chapter article.

[XKhalilX]

fixed the belief system, added battle doctrine.

[BlackKnight1239]

Admittedly, if that was considered mutation, then Space Marines themselves are mutants, as they are altered humans. regardless, I like the little hypocrisy (sp) of them having Librarians. So caught up in their dogma, they fail to see the obvious. Or, choose not to.

[XKhalilX]

I have an idea on the gene-seed for the chapter. I ran it by Sigismund and he did not see it being issue.

my idea is this:

as mentioned in the history, several squads of marines came to liberate the Astra Gallica, Gaulthia Prime specifically. They were ordered to train and equip the new chapter of Steel Wyverns.

Now based on the Wyrm Cult of the Gauls of Gaulthia Prime, and their belief that the Emperor is human manifestation of th Great Wyrm, would it be plausible for the marines that liberated the system are the Iron Snakes?

It would make the most sense, both chapters recruits are from worlds where serpentlike creatures play an important and vital part of their chapter's belief cult. Both chapters hold their homeworlds (Ithaka and Gaulthia Prime respectively) to be sacred and each marine carries a vial containing elements of their homeworld (vial of water for Iron Snakes, vial of soil for Steel Wyverns). So Iron Snakes could easily adapt their beliefs to that of Gaulthia Prime and the Wyrm cult of its inhabitants.

On top of this, the armor of each is primarily boltgun metal

now what does everyone think of this? It makes the most sense in terms of belief structure and influence, armour scheme, etc. and two, it also leaves the primarch identity unknown, as the primarch gene seed of the Iron Snakes has never been confirmed.

Input greatly appreciated on this subject

[Sigismund Himself]

The serpents of the world of Gaulthia Prime are quite impressive beasts. My calculations measure them in a range of six to ten meters in length, and a wingspan of five meters. Their tails are tipped with a poisonous barb that is exquisitely sharp.The inhabitants of the planet call them “wyrms.” The term seems appropriate given their slender, sleek build."
-Magos Biologist Rharn Upedus-

Make it more Mechanicus-y. More gothic and more technical.

If the wyrms are sacred and holy, why do they kill them to gain entrance to the chapter? Especially if they believe they are manifestations of the Emperor, they're trying to kill the Emperor then.

Chaplains play an extremely important role within the chapter, often leading campaigns in place of Captains.

Remember that Chaplains do not (normally) have the tactical and strategic training that Captain have. So them leading instead of a Captain is not always a good idea.

The people were told of the glories of the Emperor and his Great Crusade by the battle brothers of the adeptus astartes who helped liberate their souls.

When was the planet freed? And why is the Great Crusade being mentioned and why are the Astartes talking to normal humans?

After the liberation of the Astra Gallica, the Chapter Master suggested that the Imperium should make a successor chapter to watch over the system as it was too far to sufficiently watch over and protect.

Not particularly a good reason, just put some Imperial Guard on it instead.

The High Lords of Terra learning of the great feats of the people of Gaulthia Prime granted the creation of a new chapter of space marines.

Again, not a good reason.

They were given equipment to arm and supply one full battle company.

What about all the other equipment for the rest of the chapter?

However, the new recruits refused to be led under anyone but their king. He alone was their leader, and no offworlder, even a veteran of the adeptus astartes, would carry their respect as their High King.

Seems rather silly. The Astartes are gods of war, sons of the Emperor and would awe the recruits. The recruits reaction would be one of obedience to them, methinks, not this silly rebellion. Plus what do the marines think of this, especially the one meant to be Chapter Master? Write it better or leave it out.

The Wyrm Riders, as the Knights were called, would follow him as members of adeptus astartes.

How old were they?

There is also a duplication right underneath this as well.

...it holds strategic point on the border of the Imperial Empire.

This isn't Star Wars so call it the Imperium

They (wyrms) are used as transport throughout the world

Using holy animals as beasts of burden? Sacrilege! You need to establish how the wyrms are viewed better. You have them being killed while being regarded as sacred.

The Librarium of the Steel Wyverns have record that not a single Hospitaller in the chapter's history has ever fallen from the light of the Emperor.

As most Chaplains from chapters haven't either, this is fairly worthless.

The greatest Wyrm Slayers are brought to the Monestary to perform physical feats of combat...

Remember the age restriction.

Why don't they have 1000 marines? How did they get this organization?

There's one or two spots where some less formal language is used. Just watch that.

[XKhalilX]

okay I fixed up the recruit section and company section. edited history section in regards to justifying ulthor as ch. master. also fixed the relationship with wyrms in other sections so it makes more sense. no slaying or riding of the sacred beasts no more

sorry about the imperial empire thing, I was actually watching star wars i believe when i originally typed this up many months ago LOL!

as for the mechanicus quote, how do i make it sound more gothic like?

Fixed up history to justify new chapter and equipment. Still need to decide about the Iron Snakes connection

Edited by XKhalilX, 29 September 2008 - 03:18 AM.

[The Dean]

Hey there!

Really like your IA, it has a nice flow and structure!

The connection with the Iron Snakes is kinda... obvious. Still I personally feel that they, while obviously closely related to the Iron Snakes in some customs and believes, are different enough to warrant the ideas.
Only objection to being IronSnake descendants is that their GeneSeed is unknown. I don't think that the AM or the Highlords would take the risk of creating a new chapter with a geneseed that is not defined. Who knows what hideous mutations might come of that!
Still, if you find a way to explain that away, maybe with the remoteness of the area, the only practical source of GeneSeed would be the close-by Iron Snakes...
Though if the Snakes really did give them some of their precious Gene Seed, the newly found chapter would be DEEPLY in their depth... Don't know if that will work...

And I like the small quirk with hating Mutants and having themselves a form of mutation. Fits into the whole imperial hypocrisy thing nicely.

Edited by The Dean, 19 October 2008 - 01:56 PM.

[Apocalyp$e]

Looks GREAT!!!
I do see 1 problem though.... well 2... You see the Iron Snakes DO know who their primarch is(it's Dorn) They are an offshoot of the imperial fists, and as such they have NO BETCHER'S GLAND... nor do they have a functioning Sus-an, which means no super-coma-healing-sleep....
The Rogal Dorn thing was mentioned at least twice in the novel... once when they are talking about how much the Iron Snakes revere the emperor first and foremost, even over dorn... the second time being when Aekon dives the trench and spies all the offerings on the sea floor... Remember the bronze figurine which may have been the great primarch, but which had lost all likeness to him....

Sorry to be the guy who had to burst your bubble... get it? a "marine" marine chapter.. burst your bubble.... meh- it's been a long day....

[XKhalilX]

Looks GREAT!!!
I do see 1 problem though.... well 2... You see the Iron Snakes DO know who their primarch is(it's Dorn) They are an offshoot of the imperial fists, and as such they have NO BETCHER'S GLAND... nor do they have a functioning Sus-an, which means no super-coma-healing-sleep....
The Rogal Dorn thing was mentioned at least twice in the novel... once when they are talking about how much the Iron Snakes revere the emperor first and foremost, even over dorn... the second time being when Aekon dives the trench and spies all the offerings on the sea floor... Remember the bronze figurine which may have been the great primarch, but which had lost all likeness to him....

Sorry to be the guy who had to burst your bubble... get it? a "marine" marine chapter.. burst your bubble.... meh- it's been a long day....

Apocalypse, could you cite the page numbers in the novel, this is very interesting because from everyone I know that has read the novel, the book never mentions it.

i don't recall the dorn reference. and the trench figure doesn't necessary mean Dorn, it could be any of the loyal primarchs by that description.

anyone else have a take on this? even the lexicanum article says primarch is unknown.

if indeed it is dorn, it looks like I may need to change things up a bit hahaha

EDIT: actually it can't be Dorn, because i recall Sgt. Priad or one of Damocles squad being bit by a snake and the venom being absorbed into their betcher's gland. they then used it later on in the nove. so they couldn't be Dorn geneseed

Edited by XKhalilX, 28 October 2008 - 08:59 PM.

[Apocalyp$e]

I'm pretty sure it is... and they use BOTH of their non-functioning organs in the book- which I wasn't too pleased about, but that happens ALL the time... Gimme a sec and I'll see if I can hunt the page down...

[The Dean]

Maybe they THINK they are descendant from the fists?
I certainly don't remember that there was a definite answer in the book... might have to go back and read it a second time.

[Apocalyp$e]

I tried looking for it last night for about a ½hour, but there are a LOT of pages to look through... i myself am on page 332 so I am well beyond the part I am talking about. But do you guys know what I am talking about? It's the part where the book describes how the Iron Snakes revere the emperor over their primarch unlike a lot of other chapters... even the part that talks about the statue in the trench loosing all resemblance to the primarch suggests that they know where they come from, and who their primarch is...
I am 100% sure I read "Dorn"... well maybe 99%... I guess it's possible that I dreamt the whole thing, but seeing as how I am still reading the book, everything is still more or less fresh in my mind.

[XKhalilX]

Apocalypse, I recall the trench situation when they see the figurine, but it gives NO description as to who the figure looks like, just that is resembles what could be their primarch. the way dan abnett has it worded it seems like the figure was so once intricate and detailed that it could have possibly resembled a primarch, though not theirs, as they don't know who it is, and due to the erosion of time the figure has lost much of its features.

Dan Abnett never explicitly states who their primarch is, and I doubt it is Dorn for the fact that Priad uses his betchers gland in the story. Now dan Abnett is quite the writer and he is well versed in fluff, so I doubt he would forget that Dorn geneseed has lost the betchers gland.

even on the lexicanum profile it says the snakes have no idea who they are descended from. now Chapter Master Seydon is the 18th chapter master of iron snakes, if we take average life of marine to be around 300 years, that puts the snakes back around a finding of mid 35th millenium, if we take average to be 400, that places them around late 33rd millenium, so i take it they are around a founding of 34th-35th millenium based purely on statistics.

but off topic, back to my Wyverns (Yes my vanity is showing). If they come from the Iron Snakes, they too would have a betcher's gland, and they too would not know their primarch. The Primadonna of Fluff has spoken, and his Wyverns spit a mighty acid from their betchers!

EDIT: okay that last sentence sounds extremely homo, it wasn't meant to be LOL

Edited by XKhalilX, 29 October 2008 - 05:46 PM.

[Apocalyp$e]

Apocalypse, I recall the trench situation when they see the figurine, but it gives NO description as to who the figure looks like, just that is resembles what could be their primarch. the way dan abnett has it worded it seems like the figure was so once intricate and detailed that it could have possibly resembled a primarch, though not theirs, as they don't know who it is, and due to the erosion of time the figure has lost much of its features.

I know, but the fact that an Iron Snake could have dived the trench and put a statue of the primarch there, means that they know who the primarch is enough to have a sculpture of him... Even though I think Abnett kinda implies later on that the bronze statue was Petrok's offering of a famous war-hero...

Dan Abnett never explicitly states who their primarch is, and I doubt it is Dorn for the fact that Priad uses his betchers gland in the story. Now dan Abnett is quite the writer and he is well versed in fluff, so I doubt he would forget that Dorn geneseed has lost the betchers gland.
...even on the lexicanum profile it says the snakes have no idea who they are descended from.

Well, the lexicanum is nice to get some info from, but it's by no means the source for official fluff, and if someone forgot to add the primarch, it would just show up as unknown...
Also in the case of Dan Abnett, he writes a hell of a lot more than 40K... He is by no means an authority on cannon 40k material. This guy's job is to pump out as many words as he can, as quickly as possible. Authors have screwed up many times before in regards to fluff(especially something as obscure as the malfunctioning Imp. Fist organs)

I re-read some more pages today, and found another reference on page 204...
"The Apothecary kneelsin the surfon the beach as the moon rises between the stacks of the Primarch's Causeway."
I know it doesn't say Primarch Dorn's Causeway, but I know what I read and the Snakes would have to be complete retards to have landmarks and statues/sculptures of their primarch without having an actual idea of what he looks like...
"You mean our primarch is sanguinius? I better dive the trench again, and put some wings on my statuette of the primarch"
I'll also assume you haven't read the Iron Snakes short stories in Inferno!
Oh well, I will continue searching for the part you missed...

EDIT: Another Primarch's Causeway ref on 196

"Enough! in the name of the primarch, enough!" Strabo screamed pg194
"Shut up, in the name of the primarch!" 183
"In the name of the primarch who sired us, in the name of the chapter which binds us, in the name of the God-Emperor who rules us, in the name of Ithaka..." 168
primarch's causeway again on 166

Edited by Apocalyp$e, 29 October 2008 - 09:55 PM.

[XKhalilX]

i see your references. again from the wording, it seems the snakes dont know exactly WHO the primarch was in terms of identity. they acknowledge being astartes they are from a primarch, but they dont seem to know which.

p. 183 and p. 166 and 168 points to this.

if they knew their primarch they would say so. Its definately not Dorn, there is no reference to him at all, and having betchers gland shows this. Maybe u hpe they are Dorn gene seed apocalypse lol

yes abnett writes alot of things, but him and graham mcneil are our written authorites.

I think they are probably ultramarines geneseed, or possibly vulkan, due to serpernt iconography and their very humanitarian ways and odd chapter stucture.

[Apocalyp$e]

Yeah, this is driving me crazy... I've re-read over 100 pages backwards(yes backwards) from where I am now... I've even dredged up every Iron Snakes topic for the last year on the Black Library forums... Only to find most people agree on the unknown primarch thing, and the others... say it's Gulliman...(huh?) Needless to say this is frustrating me a little.
As for Abnett and McNeil... being our "authorities"- I don't think so man. These guys get A LOT wrong and GW has become so frustrated with authors messing with the storyline that in the last stockholders meeting they announced that the Black Library novels are NOT to be taken as Cannon material, in fact they said to treat them as "What if" stories with no pertinence on the 40k world as a whole. They stated the ONLY true-to-storyline material can come from the studio-NOT from novels from the black library... That means unless you read it in a rulebook or codex, it didn't happen. You should know how untrue-to-fluff authors can be... especially after you read Red Fury...
Here is a link: http://www.bolterand...howtopic=146582
As for me hoping that they are dorn seedlings... I sure do, I mean, I VIVIDLY recall reading this phantom paragraph, and if it doesn't exist, then I am going crazy. The fact that I have stopped progress through this novel JUST to re-read it shows how desparate I am. If it proves false, I'm gonna have to stop reading novels until I pass-out...
I'll keep searching for the passage that I think I read....

Edited by Apocalyp$e, 30 October 2008 - 01:29 AM.

[XKhalilX]

haha Apocalypse, your crackin me up. I am the exact same way about things, like if I can't remember the name of a band or actor, I will literally be thinking about it for HOURS until it suddenly hits me.

Yeah I recall the stockholder's meeting, and I believe it was around the same time Red Fury was coming out about. I think James Swallow really screwed over the any credibility that any Black Library writers had. What I don't get is, why doesn't GW APPROVE the fluff within the book before it is published? Doesn't GW own Black Library? If they do, it would only be sensible that they approve what is written before printing it for the public.

From the Iron Snakes book, I get the gist that they being astartes know they bare the geneseed of one of the loyal primarchs. The way Abnett writes it however, is that they simply have no idea who that primarch possibly is. As you cited above and mentioned, there are mentions of Primarch talk within the novel. But they never outright say or describe their primarch. they simply state "In the name of the Primarch" and such. That doesn't suggest they KNOW who he is, but in honoring their primarch in the only way they can, they say it simply as "Primarch." Given their lineage is unknown, this is the only way they seem to venerate their unknown source of their creation.

They venerate the Emperor over their primarch simply because they have no idea to WHO their primarch is. They can't have a strong primarch cult without the knowledge of his identity, so they place the Emperor, the ultimate man and creator of all geneseed of the primarchs and astartes. Now they do have hall of the primarch, but there is no mention of any kind of statue or depiction of their primarch. the only mention is the trench figure, but again if i recall the figure in the trench isn't absolutey a figure of the primarch, only that Aekon(i believe it was him who saw it) thinks to himself that it could have once resembled the primarch due to its once intricate detail but do to being underwater for centuries, the features have eroded away, which i take as a metaphor to the eroding away of their geneseed roots. its lost to them through the oceans of time.

what we can decipher from the Iron Snakes novel it is not:
Dorn due to the betchers gland mentioned in Priad
Sanguinius simply because their is no signs of any black rage or red thirst
Corax because they have normal skin tone and no signs of degeneration
Russ, simply because we know the only successor were the Wolf Brothers, and they failed.
Lion, no hunt for the fallen, no secretiveness behind them, no mention of Inner Circle, it simply doesn't jive.
Ferrus, no outward favorotism to bionics, not too mention the Snakes are quite "nice" the geneseed of Ferrus kind of mean and cold LOL

what we can hypothesize is possibly:
guilliman because of no outward signs of degeneration, very pure genestock. have that "ultramarines" feel too.
Khan, unorthodox structure, although I can't see anymore reason, like the Lion above, I just don't think it is plausiable
Vulkan because of their serpent iconography and their humanitarianism. Though they do not seem to bear dark skin, though it is debated as to whether or not that is due to Vulkan's geneseed, or simply the environment of Salamander's homeworld


for as much as I am not a fan of ultramarines, I tend to believe they are of Guilliman's stock.

now that this thread has turned to Iron Snakes, I need to bring it back to my Wyverns. Moderators, any improvements needed? I want it fit for the Liber Honorus

Edited by XKhalilX, 30 October 2008 - 03:28 AM.

[Apocalyp$e]

Well, of all the chapters, it would definately make the most sense to come from UM... Mostly because everyone other than the dark angels, white scars, fists, and iron hands are ruled out strictly for physical reasons... fangs for BA & SW, skin colour for ravens & BA(pale) and vulkan(black w/red eyes).
The Imp.Fist thing with the non-functioning organs would rule them out in a logical world where authors followed established fluff.
The scars I like to think of as mongolian/oriental looking which would rule them out(though I don't know if that's a result of geneseed or recruiting source.)[actually the primarch looked that way, so I like to think it's the seed-though I have no refrences]
I like to think that the Dark Angles are the way they are due to events and culture rather than genetics, same with the iron hands-so I would not discount them due to geneseed. I don't believe someone would have a preferance for bionics from geneseed, I say thats just doctrine.
I think the UM make the most sense mostly becuase they both have a similar theme- the greco-romano style.
I gotta say though, that the Iron Snakes were a really weird chapter... They seemed to have NO armour(i recall 1 landspeeder). They were constantly dropping onto planets in "landers" no droppods. They had no scouts. There were no chaplains, and tons of librarians that were performing the chaplain duties. I didn't hear about any assault squads. No terminators appeared, though the Terminator elite were mentioned once...The overall structure was WEIRD... they mentioned a bunch of chapter "wardens" which is something I've never heard of... Noone seemed to use any power weapons other than the pwer claw priad weilded... What else am I missing? I haven't read about any dreads either, though i know one is coming up...( i accidentally spoilered myself searching the BL forums for my primarch answer..)

Edited by Apocalyp$e, 30 October 2008 - 04:10 AM.

[XKhalilX]

it seems like for the Iron Snakes, it feels like their is a hybrid apothecary-chaplain marine, much like how the techmarine-chaplain Iron Father of the Iron Hands, but I could be wrong. It seemed the apothecaries were the ones to perform ritual and lead rites of belief for the snakes.

it seemed the scouts were basically like chapter serfs almost, or at least like squires in the sense of training beside and taking care of the astartes themselves until a vacancy in a squad is opened up.

yeah, i don't recall much armor myself, just a landspeeder or bike, and then a rhino. but again, we have to remember, the entire book is based solely on Damocles squad, one of th 5 notable squads within the chapter.

Hey Apoc, I don't know if you have seen this:
http://www.bolterand...p...25028&st=25
Its DIY Iron Snakes IA article

so Apoc, outside the discussion of the origins of the Snakes, which thus connects my Steel Wyverns, how does the article look? LOL. Obviously the primarch identity is something that currently is an unknown for the Iron Snakes, so my Wyverns are left wondering as well.

[The Dean]

Hey there.

Lots of Primarch talk...

Back to your Wyverns:

I really like the IA.
The only thing that I find a bit odd are the Emerals Talons from an organisational perspective.
I find the last Company of 30 a bit... dunno... small and out of place. Do they work in Squads of 10 or 5? Why are there so few again?
Maybe it would work better if they were part of the Chapter Masters Household?

And in the Battlefield Doctrine part, the last sentence says

the Steel Wyverns presence is always a welcome sight by fellow marines.

Why only fellow Marines? IG afraid of them? SoB irritated because of their beliefs?

++EDIT: Spelling...

Edited by The Dean, 30 October 2008 - 09:17 AM.

[XKhalilX]

thanks Dean,
on my signature is an old draft of my Steel Wyverns, the one that says additional information. The Emerald Talons were discussed in it. Basically the Talons are a squad of 10, the most elite in the chapter and all are equipped with lightning claws, then are 20 other marines in squads of 5 that are elite assault troops. they work alongside other companies but are a special company in themselves. When a member of the Emerald Talons (ie: a brother elite with the claws) dies, a member of the brother-postulants (the elite assault troops) takes his place.

its kind of like Shrike's Wing or modern day US Navy Seals . Initially I only had 10 troops, but the mods helped me realize they would have no troops to fill their slots when they die lol. so I made it 30.

they have a less then cordial relationship with IG, simply because they will not fight alongside any IG that allow nonhumans in their troops (Ogryns, squats, etc.). no issue with the sisters, unless they begin to grow a third eye or arm or something LOL