134 replies to this topic

[Grand Master Tyrak]

If thats the points and intent, why not make it available to Inquisitors too, and change the wording to this:

"Grants the Rites of Exorcims special rule for as long as the power is active. If the unit already has the Rites of Exorcism special rule, then Difficult Terrain tests caused by the unit's Rites of Exorcism become Dangerous Terrain tests."

[- 7eAL -]

I would prefer this power be restricted to Inquisitors. As noted, it produces an overlap with Rites of Exorcism on Grey Knights, reducing its utility.
Keep in mind that Grey Knights psychic powers are to be wrapped into their base cost per model - they always choose psychic powers this way and never pay additional cost for them. If the power is not worth some 20-30 points then it is not level with other available powers, and it will not be taken as it is less powerful or less useful.

To further increase its value, also allow it to be applied like Fortune, Guide and other similar powers: "before the enemy moves, the psyker can nominate any squad within x distance". Since the only necessary condition is "before the enemy moves", the psychic test can occur any time during the player's turn, at the end of the player's turn, or at the beginning of the enemy player's turn.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

THE EMPEROR PROTECTS
This power is used during the opponents shooting phase or assault phase, after targets are declared or all models have moved into close combat but before making rolls to hit. The owning player can force the opponent to reroll all to successful rolls to hit the squad using the power. The power ends immediately when the phase ends.
This may be selected by Grey Knight units who have access to psychic powers only.

Seeing as the GK thread is progressing again, I'm going to start chucking out ideas for GK squad powers so people can see how the full picture of the new Grey Knights comes together.

Here's a modified version of something Pyriel suggested a while back. Essentially this is a squad power able to be taken by Grey Knights as part of their base cost, following the free squad powers rule (1 for PAGK squads, 2 for GKT squads and GK Battle-Captains, none for Lancers and 3 for a GK Grand Master). This should stack with the reworked Shrouding, and provide a good deal of anti-shooting protection for our expensive models.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Anyone? We do really need to do the psychic powers in order to finish of a lot of the Grey Knights units.

[Venerable Rhadamanthus]

I don't think we need to do the powers to finish the units...unless there is something specific for that unit.

In the "other" DH thread...I suggested giving Purge Squads as a FA choice a group power like Gate of Infinity to maneuver around the battlefield. I really like this idea....and have no qualms about suggesting it here...but mainly this is to illustrate the point about powers specific to a unit.

But generally, I think we can try and finish up units before powers.

Speaking of units...what are you/we working on in this list...what needs finished/whatever?

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Venerable Rhadamanthus Posted Today, 07:29 AM
I don't think we need to do the powers to finish the units...unless there is something specific for that unit.

All the Grey Knight units apart from the Lancers (who are considered finished because of this) get varying numbers of squad powers as part of their base costs:
PAGKs: 1 squad power
GKTs: 2 squad powers
GK Battle-Captain: 2 powers
GK Grand Master: 3 powers, may use 2 powers per turn.

We can't work out their base costs until we've compiled a list of psychic powers, and by the same token the power level of those powers will be limited by the maximum base cost of the GKs in question.

In the "other" DH thread...I suggested giving Purge Squads as a FA choice a group power like Gate of Infinity to maneuver around the battlefield. I really like this idea....and have no qualms about suggesting it here...but mainly this is to illustrate the point about powers specific to a unit.

A similar idea was agreed upon here, and moving Purgation Squads to FA was agreed upon several months ago.

[Venerable Rhadamanthus]

I remember the PS becoming FA way back when (which I thought a great idea)...and I remember the Swooping Hawk-like ability being talked about in that thread...but not Gates or something similar. I only suggested the Gates as a power...not that they be FA. I have no problem giving credit where it is due....



As for squad powers....

are all the units updated now? (other than powers)



Also, are these powers going to be squad specific? (you use "squad powers" and "powers" so..just clarifying) (like PA getting Gate, but no one else)

squad universal? (any squad can choose this) (like anyone can choose Gate)

different than the powers a lone BC or GM get or part of the same list of 6-9 that get listed in the armory section of codex's now? (not the same powers as other codex's, just the same outline/set-up)


And what is funny about this..is I apparently had a dyslexic moment when reading your post yesterday!

I read it as "Do we really need to..." and not as "We do really need to..." so thus how I responded...oops.



So on to power discussions!



As I noted b4..I like a "Gate"-like power for PS...but don't have a problem with it being universal. But making it universal means the whole army can do it..and that may be unbalanced.




I will scroll thru and read up on suggested powers, etc and comment accordingly.

[Venerable Rhadamanthus]

THE EMPEROR PROTECTS
This power is used during the opponents shooting phase or assault phase, after targets are declared or all models have moved into close combat but before making rolls to hit. The owning player can force the opponent to reroll all to successful rolls to hit the squad using the power. The power ends immediately when the phase ends.
This may be selected by Grey Knight units who have access to psychic powers only.

Only one part of this power throws things off. When in a Shooting Phase..you don't declare all targets and who is shooting at them..you pick a unit..say who they are shooting at...resolve shooting...resolve pinning (if needed)...and move on to the next unit and their target...finishing up with Morale tests.

So the "after targets are declared" portion of this power won't work in the Shooting Phase, but it does work in the Assault Phase.

Otherwise I have no problem with the powers effect. It's kinda like an advanced form of Shrouding.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Also, are these powers going to be squad specific? (you use "squad powers" and "powers" so..just clarifying) (like PA getting Gate, but no one else)

squad universal? (any squad can choose this) (like anyone can choose Gate)

different than the powers a lone BC or GM get or part of the same list of 6-9 that get listed in the armory section of codex's now? (not the same powers as other codex's, just the same outline/set-up)

You choose however many you are allowed from a pool of powers. These will probably be mostly exclusive to GKs. They are intended to be used on the squad that takes them as enhancements, or to blast/damage/weaken opponents. They aren't designed to boost allies.
Any squad can choose any power(s) at the moment. Unique powers will probably be left to GK special characters. However, some may be designed to combine effects when a GKGM uses 2 powers in the same turn.

On the subject of the Gate. I don't think we should include it.

One, it's just a copy-paste from the SM Codex.

Two, we should not be jumping around to the point where we are shirking close combat. On the whole we should be getting stuck in. The exception is Purgation Squads, who are designed as fire support and so aren't meant to be in CC. They can still dish it out if caught in CC, and the player has to be careful using them since they don't have a weapon above 24", but because of the short range they aren't treading on the toes of Crisis Battlesuits.

Three, our powers should ideally
1) Go some way towards negating our weaknesses (like combining with Shrouding to give greater protection, or granting re-rolls in combat)
Or
2) Be directly attacking the enemy (whether by causing wounds or forcing re-rolls of successful hits/armour saves/whatever)

Whilst we will be doing a lot of psychic tricks, they still need to fit our theme.

[Chengar Qordath]

So far this thread has been fairly GK-centric, so I'm going to throw out a couple ideas for Daemonhost powers. I assume we'll be keeping the Daemonhost special rule that they pass all psychic tests and are immune to Perils of the Warp, which is why some of the power are described as being passive buffs.

As always, this is intended to serve as a starting point for discussion, and is not a definitive ruleset.

At the start of the game, each Daemonhost rolls a d6 to determine which power it will have:

1: Terrify
Used during the shooting phase. All enemy units within 12" of the Daemonhost that are not within close combat must take an immediate pinning test, those within 6" take the test at -1 to their Ld. This ability may be used even if the Daemonhost is in engaged in close combat, in which case it counts as having inflicted an additional wound for purposes of combat resolution.

2: Re-knit host form
At the start of your turn roll a d6, on a roll of 3+, the Daemonhost recovers a single lost wound. When the Daemonhost loses it's last wound place the model on it's side rather than removing it from the field. On your next turn roll a d6, on a 3+ the Daemonhost comes back to life with a single wound.

3: Bloodboil
Used in the Shooting Phase with the following profile.
R Template S 4 AP 2 Assault 1
or
R 24 S 4 AP 3 Assault 1 Blast.

4: Timeshift
The Daemonhost doubles it's number of attacks and initiative (before modifiers).

5: Warp Strength
Add 1 to the Daemonhost's strength and toughness, the Daemonhost's close combat attacks have the Rending USR

6: Daemonic Fury
The Daemonhost gains the Furious Charge USR, and it close combat attacks count as power weapons.

[- 7eAL -]

At the start of the game, each Daemonhost rolls a d6 to determine which power it will have:

Makes Daemonhosts a little more predictable, unless they are afforded a second power rolled each turn. I like very much how they have been adjusted down from the codex to compensate for their permanence and increased reliability.

Also, are we still interested in multiple levels of Daemonhosts, available as upgrades for a fairly steep price?


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PUPPET DANCE
In other news, now resurrecting Puppet Dance from the Witch Hunters Adversaries, as a Radical power:

PUPPET DANCE
This power is used in either player's Assault phase instead of assaulting. If a psychic test is passed, then nominate one enemy unit within 12". The unit immediately resolves one round of close combat against itself using any valid weapons available to the unit. If the unit is already locked in close combat, then any survivors will fight normally during the remainder of the Assault phase. Any Independent characters who have joined the unit are immune to its effects.

Radical Inquisitors, Inquisitor Lords and Psykers only. +40 points

Points cost adjusted to compensate for the extreme points breaks afforded to Adversaries units.


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HOLOCAUST
Also editing based on the Dark Heresy rules this time.

HOLOCAUST:
OPTION C: Based on Dark Heresy power of the same name. Basically a tweak from the codex power, slightly increased in strength.
This power is used during the Assault phase. If the psyker is locked in close combat, it functions as an attack at Initiative 1. If a psychic test is passed, then place a small blast template anywhere in contact with the psyker. All models under the template take a hit with the following profile:
--- Range: Large blast . . . Strength: Leadership - 5 . . . AP:- . . . Assault 1 . . . Large blast, Ignores cover.
All successful armour and invulnerable saves must be rerolled. If the psyker is locked in close combat, any and all wounds inflicted by the power count toward the combat result.
+20 points.

OPTION D: Based on Dark Heresy power of the same name, almost without reservation.
This power is used during the Assault phase. If the psyker is locked in close combat, it functions as an attack at Initiative 1. If a psychic test is passed, then place a small blast template anywhere in contact with the psyker. All models under the template take a hit with the following profile, although allied models may make saves as normal:
--- Range: Small blast . . . Strength: Leadership - 5 . . . AP:2 . . . Assault 1 . . . Small blast, Ignores cover, Ignores invulnerable saves.
If the psyker is locked in close combat, any and all wounds inflicted by the power count toward the combat result.
+30 points.

Options C and D are almost perfect for Radicals, Daemonhosts and Wild Psykers.

Edited by - 7eAL -, 12 July 2009 - 01:16 PM.

[Chengar Qordath]

At the start of the game, each Daemonhost rolls a d6 to determine which power it will have:

Makes Daemonhosts a little more predictable, unless they are afforded a second power rolled each turn. I like very much how they have been adjusted down from the codex to compensate for their permanence and increased reliability.

Also, are we still interested in multiple levels of Daemonhosts, available as upgrades for a fairly steep price?

How about an upgrade option that lets the Daemonhost roll for an additional power? That would be justifiably expensive, and powerful enough to be worth the cost.

[- 7eAL -]

How about an upgrade option that lets the Daemonhost roll for an additional power? That would be justifiably expensive, and powerful enough to be worth the cost.

That's a whole 'nother thread, Chengar. Shall I start it now, or save it for later?

There's about a dozen ways we can make upgrade options for Daemonhosts, and they probably won't all fit in here.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

In response to concerns in the Lancers thread, I'm proposing an as-yet-unnamed power to give them a bit of ranged ability. Not sure yet whether this should be available to any other units, we'll just see how it goes. This is also not intended to replace their shooting - this should still force tactical decisions about whether to turbo-boost or whether to use this power. Anyway, here's the draft.

Range: 24" Str: 5 AP: 3, Assault D6, +25pts per unit.

Any thoughts?

[- 7eAL -]

TWEAKS:

HEKATONKHEIRES:
A Grey Knight can call upon the Warp to speed his superhuman actions and senses many times over, to such levels that his mental awareness transcends thought and his body seems disconnected from his mind. In battle, his strikes have an intelligence of their own as he steps in tune with his Brothers and all the things in motion around him. To an enemy, a Grey Knight using this power is like a giant whose hundred fighting arms seem to be from everywhere at every moment.

This power is used during either player's Assault phase. If a psychic test is passed, then Grey Knights double their base add D3 to their Initiative and reroll missed rolls to hit for the duration of that Assault phase. Weapons and items which increase Initiative are ignored cannot be combined with this power but weapons and items that reduce Initiative strike at normal Initiative instead ignore this power. The squad cannot perform a Sweeping Advance on the same turn that this power is used.

+25 points for a squad, Grey Knight squads only. - from Pyriel @ Sep 29 2008, 03:09 AM

THE EMPEROR PROTECTS / IRON CURTAIN? / THE SHROUD OF TITAN
The moon which the Grey Knights call their home is shielded from the universe by a thick and dense atmosphere that scrambles all methods of detection and prevents passage to all but the most specialized of craft piloted by experienced psykers. By twisting the very air to mimic the blinding and choking clouds of his home, a Grey Knight can produce for himself an area of protection in which even speeding bullets can be swatted out of the air.

This power is used during the opponent's Shooting phase or Assault phase after targets are declared or all models have moved into close combat, but before making rolls to hit at the beginning of any player's turn. If a psychic test is passed, then for the duration of that player's turn, the player can force the opponent to reroll any and all to successful rolls to hit the Grey Knights. The power ends immediately when the phase ends.
+20 +25 points for a squad. Grey Knight squads only.

Titan does have an atmosphere of at least 1.5 bars, after all, and a fierce wind. With no magnetic field of its own and some other atmospheric systems that make the planet essentially opaque on the electromagnetic spectrum, the surface of the moon really is quite difficult to investigate and get to.

Regarding the change and why it lasts a full player turn - mostly, I do not want to say "opponent's Shooting phase or either player's Assault phase". It should be available in both Assault phases, should it not? Wording three individual phases makes it difficult to work with.
Additionally, allowing the player to declare this power after targets have been declared seems slightly opportunistic, if not unwieldy. If the squad hasn't used another power that turn then the player can declare it the moment a Leman Russ turret swings around to target the squad. However if the player expects the squad to get shot at, then he or she might hold off using any other psychic powers for that turn - and therefore lose an opportunity if the squad is ignored. By declaring it at the beginning of a turn, both players are fully aware that the squad is effectively immune to damage thanks to combination of saves, this psychic power, and possibly even ordinary Shrouding if it is kept. If the opponent still decides to shoot at the squad or charge them in close combat, then he or she deserves to struggle.

The reason that the power applies to all shooting and close combat for a full player turn - usually the enemy turn - is partially because the power indicates a suicidal move on the part of Grey Knights. The squad in question expects a hell of a lot of shooting or to be charged by overwhelming numbers. Most enemies that the Grey Knights face will have two or even three full squads for every squad of Knights, so if the power nominates only one enemy squad, then the nominated squad can simply shoot at something else or move somewhere else while every other enemy squad in range switches to take over responsibility. The Grey Knights gain no real tactical advantage.


-----

In response to concerns in the Lancers thread, I'm proposing an as-yet-unnamed power to give them a bit of ranged ability. Not sure yet whether this should be available to any other units, we'll just see how it goes. This is also not intended to replace their shooting - this should still force tactical decisions about whether to turbo-boost or whether to use this power. Anyway, here's the draft.

Range: 24" Str: 5 AP: 3, Assault D6, +25pts per unit.

Any thoughts?

Don't know. Considering I gave Pyriel back the storm bolters, they might not need a shooting power.
Frankly, I think I prefer subtler powers, or something that scales to the number of models in the squad. Powers specific to certain choices isn't impossible, but seems slightly awkward. I'm fairly certain players would ask why can't a Grand Master or Purgation squad or some other squad of higher rank can't use the same power.

1D6 for every five models standing, or 1D3 for every three?

[- 7eAL -]

Ruddy double post. I think I'll make this a graveyard for the stuff I've taken off so the main post can be condensed. Yep, you all can ignore this one.


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GREY KNIGHTS ONLY: UNCREATE - from 7eAL Aug 6 2008, 06:19 AM

Also taking what frod said about NFW rolling 2d6 + str 6 why not make this a psychic power that way players only pay if they want it? Have to agree with that Justicars need access to psychic powers and i am happy with the suggestions for the grenades.

Actually that's not a bad idea, perhaps what we could do is replace the current Captain with a veteran Justicar, who could be a squad leader for both PA equiped Knights and Terminator equiped Knights, the Veteran Justicar might have a choice of several squad boosting powers, so the tank hunter might gain an additional d6 armour pen whilst another squad would be able to choose a different power

Points cost was figured from meltabombs thus: meltabomb is a single attack that rolls 2d6 + 8, and is worth +5 points. This power is one attack per model and rolls 2d6 + 6. A squad of 10 with 10 meltabombs would be +50 points. A squad of 10 with 10 of these special attacks would be slightly less at say +40 points. A squad that has lost casualties to reach close combat with a vehicle would be less again at +30 points. Using a psychic power with its inherent risks and disadvantages cuts this to +20 points.

Gone.

UNCREATE:
Grey Knights are often called afield into heavily tainted areas, and even after their battles are won they find themselves surrounded by warp-twisted structures and corrupted machines. Grey Knights may need to destroy these lingering remains lest they fester like rotten sores, and by charging their indomitable will into their Nemesis force weapons, strike with force enough to level even solid ceramite.

This power is used against targets with an armour value in the Assault phase instead of making normal attacks. If a psychic test is passed, each Grey Knight armed with a Nemesis force weapon may make a single attack at his normal initiative that rolls 2d6 armour penetration instead of making his full number of attacks.
+20-25 points for a squad, Grey Knight squads only.

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GREY KNIGHTS ONLY: IRON MAIDEN - from 7eAL @ Aug 8 2008, 07:29 PM
A Grey Knight version of Countercharge? Since it's a psychic power it's entirely possible to do better than that. Thus we borrow Diablo II "Thorns" aura, Neverwinter Nights "Parry" mode-ability, and every counter move that was ever put into Dead Or Alive. (I just love watching those long, smooth computer generated legs sweep around and turn enemy attacks against themselves ...)

Gone.

IRON MAIDEN:
The psychic power within the gaze of even the lowliest Grey Knight is a force to be reckoned with, and the most talented amongst them are psykers who can crush the minds of others with their thoughts alone. For psykers, the ability to cast powerful impressions onto the minds of others is an elementary ability. When a man looks into the eyes of a Grey Knight, he sees his own fears in the Grey Knight's gaze, feels his strength stolen in the Grey Knight's breath and feels the pain of every strike turned upon himself.

This power is used in the Assault phase. If a psychic test is passed, then for every enemy attack that makes a successful roll to wound, the enemy unit suffers an automatic hit. Roll to wound using the enemy model's own strength (ie. S8 model suffers an S8 hit), or roll to wound on a 4+, whichever is better. Wounds caused by these additional hits can always be saved as normal and enemy models killed this way count toward the combat result. If no enemy models are killed by this power, then the Grey Knights add +1 to their combat result instead.
+25 points for a squad. Grey Knight squads only. - from Pyriel @ Aug 8 2008, 10:00 PM

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GREY KNIGHTS ONLY: BLINDING PURITY - from Pyriel @ Aug 8 2008, 10:00 PM
Slight extension from the rewritten Rites of Exorcism. Probably won't go in.

BLINDING PURITY
Passive power. All enemy units within 6" of the squad sergeant move in dangerous terrain. Enemies wishing to charge the squad or otherwise pass through this radius must reroll successful difficult and dangerous terrain rolls.
+10 points for a squad. Grey Knight squads only.

Edited by - 7eAL -, 28 July 2009 - 04:58 PM.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Don't know. Considering I gave Pyriel back the storm bolters, they might not need a shooting power.

I'm still disputing that though. This is intended as a compromise between those that want the Lancers to have shooting, and those that don't.

1D6 for every five models standing, or 1D3 for every three?

I intended it as just a straight D6, but that could work. It's really meant to soften up particularly hard units in preparation for the Lancer charge.

[- 7eAL -]

Don't know. Considering I gave Pyriel back the storm bolters, they might not need a shooting power.

I'm still disputing that though. This is intended as a compromise between those that want the Lancers to have shooting, and those that don't.

Well the way it works now, a model can never do both. They either get the lance power weapon and Furious Charge, or they get to shoot and True Grit. Player's choice, both options cost the same.
Right now the player can still mix the squad so it can do both - but I might change my mind (Terminators set the pattern with the mixed options).

If we say dump the storm bolters again, and put in a shooting power to compensate, then they really do get to do both: they'd keep the lance, and they'd get to shoot with a psychic power.

Edited by - 7eAL -, 29 July 2009 - 04:24 PM.

[Chengar Qordath]

How about an upgrade option that lets the Daemonhost roll for an additional power? That would be justifiably expensive, and powerful enough to be worth the cost.

That's a whole 'nother thread, Chengar. Shall I start it now, or save it for later?

There's about a dozen ways we can make upgrade options for Daemonhosts, and they probably won't all fit in here.

Could be a fun discussion, but right now my internet access is hit-and-miss and there are a fair number of other issues under discussion so it can afford to wait.

[- 7eAL -]

Well, might as well include some sort of shooting power.
OPTION A: (UNNAMED POWER)/SCOURGING - from Grand Master Tyrak @ Jul 26 2009, 09:54 AM

This is a psychic shooting attack with the following profile:

OPTION 1: Range 24" . . . Strength 5 . . . AP 3 . . . Assault D6

OPTION 2: Range 12" . . . Strength 5 . . . AP 5 . . . Assault X, (Large?) Blast
- Causes a number of hits equal to the number of models under the template, plus one hit for each Grey Knight model in the unit using this power.

OPTION 3: Range Template . . . Strength 5 . . . AP 5 . . . Assault X
- Causes a number of hits equal to the number of models under the template, plus one hit for each Grey Knight model in the unit using this power. Hits caused by this power may reroll any failed rolls to wound.

OPTION 4: Range 18" . . . Strength 5 . . . AP 5 . . . Assault D6, ignores Invulnerable saves - from Codex

+25 points.

My Options 3 and 4 here are obviously for use against infantry and hordes. Most tanks should be easy enough to destroy using Purgation squads, Terminators and Lancers.

OPTION B: MACHINE LANCE - from raverrn @ Sep 28 2008, 08:52 AM

MACHINE LANCE:
Grey Knights often face off against armoured vehicles, be they traitors to the Imperial cause or twisted creations of the Warp. Often these steel beasts are layered in armour proof against even the psycannon and Nemesis blade. No protection, however, can can save their crews and Machine Spirits from mind of a determined psyker.
Machine Lance is a psychic shooting attack with the following profile:

Range 18" . . . Strength 9 . . . AP 1 . . . Assault 1

Do not roll on the vehicle damage chart; on a glancing hit the vehicle suffers a Crew Shaken result, and on a penetrating hit the vehicle suffers a Crew Stunned result. This power ignores any ability that would reduce or negate damage results of Crew Shaken or Crew Stunned.

OPTION C: ELECTRICAL STORM: - from Pyriel @ Sep 28 2008, 05:37 PM
Stolen from Wyrd and Minor psykers in the Standard Psychic Powers thread, thought I'd include it for completeness.

ELECTRICAL STORM:
This power is a psychic shooting attack with the following profile:

Range 12" . . . Strength X . . . AP - . . . Assault 1, Large Blast

All vehicles and walkers under or partially under the template take 1D3 glancing hits. If a 3 is rolled, the vehicle also receives an automatic Vehicle Stunned result. The power has no effect on models without an armour value.

Edited by - 7eAL -, 16 August 2009 - 04:26 PM.

[- 7eAL -]

GREY KNIGHTS ONLY: SILENT STEP
As promised, a power that allows Grey Knights to move in the Assault phase. Yes, I originally said no, but I've changed my mind.

Since it requires the Grey Knights to have moved in the same turn, Purgation squads cannot fire to full effect at 36" range and use this power to get away. They can shoot at 18" and do this all they like, however, so it's a way to let them fall back after shooting. Assume that the first move is part of the Grey Knights building up speed - they have to walk at a nice and steady pace in order to stay together as they skim the borders of the Warp, shifting time and space alike. If any one of them loses pace, he will be left behind and destroyed.

If anyone has a better name to recommend for this power, suggestions are certainly welcome.

SILENT STEP:
(Something about Grey Knights skimming across the border of the Immaterium, flickering between Real space and Warp space as they move even through solid objects. Something about silver apparitions leaving a field of battle where, all living creatures have been miraculously been killed where they stand doing very ordinary things, or else swept away entirely as though they simply got up and left everything behind. (Reference the Angels of Mons or Archers of Agincourt here.)

This power is used at the beginning of the player's Assault phase instead of assaulting, provided that the Grey Knights have moved in the same turn and are not locked in close combat. If a psychic test is passed, then the Grey Knights may move up to 2D6" in any direction, following the rules of jump infantry. Any model finishing its move in impassable terrain is destroyed. If the player rolls a double, then one member of the unit has been left behind in the Warp and is removed as a casualty - the survivors move up to the distance rolled, following the rules for jump infantry.

Effective value +25 points for a squad, Grey Knight squads only.

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TWEAKING
To account for the offensive potential of Silent Step carrying Grey Knights toward combat zones, I thought it best to tone down Hekatonkheires a little bit.

GREY KNIGHTS ONLY: HEKATONKHEIRES - from 7eAL @ Aug 7 2008, 03:34 AM

HEKATONKHEIRES:
A Grey Knight can call upon the Warp to speed his superhuman actions and senses many times over, to such levels that his mental awareness transcends thought and his body seems disconnected from his mind. In battle, his strikes have an intelligence of their own as he steps in tune with his Brothers and all the things in motion around him. To an enemy, a Grey Knight using this power is like a giant whose hundred fighting arms seem to be everywhere at every moment.

This power is used at the beginning of either player's Assault phase. If a psychic test is passed, then the Grey Knights double their base add D3 to their Initiative and reroll failed rolls to hit add D3 to their Weapon Skill for the duration of that Assault phase. Weapons and items which increase Initiative are ignored cannot be combined with this power but weapons and items that reduce Initiative strike at normal Initiative instead ignore this power. The squad cannot perform a Sweeping Advance on the same turn that this power is used.

Effective value +25 points for a squad, Grey Knight squads only. - from Pyriel @ Sep 29 2008, 03:09 AM

More tweaking. Instead of rerolling failed hits, it adds D3 Weapon Skill instead. A little less powerful and doesn't help much when the Grey Knights already have close combat superiority, but it has an element of defense as well. Sweeping Advances are back in, though it doesn't help Terminators any because they can never make Sweeping Advances anyway.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

GREY KNIGHTS ONLY: SILENT STEP

I like it, particularly since Grey Knights are so expensive. It's not an obvious choice (unlike Jump Back for Crisis Suits) and needs real tactical thinking.

[doomshroom]

My only issue with silent step is that i don't like the idea of the grey knights employing a tactic which might leave one of their number lost in the warp. It seems like a risk they would be unwilling to take, not because of the fatality, but because of the fact that a grey knight is hanging out in the warp, just waiting for the great four to figure out what makes him tick, or something similar to this. I understand it's necessity as a gameplay and balance measure, but fluff wise it just doesn't quite ring true.

Also, is it necessary to de-power H just because of the inclusion of a mobility boosting option? I mean, in order to take the H/Silent Step combo, you would have to forgo the shroud of titan, which seems to me a less-than-obvious cost/benefit analysis. Though if you feel de-powering H might be a good idea for other reasons, then I think there are a few points that need to be addressed.

I guess my main question is this: is H meant to be mainly offensive, defensive, or a nice, even mixture? In all cases I think that the +D3 to I is a fine choice, but as far as the WS thing goes....

As a mixture, the way you remade it might be a decent choice, but for me it's just too damn random. And the fact that it does nothing, as far as to-hit is concerned, against WS 4 models, doesn't really make me happy either. But that's just personal preference. But my real point here is that at the moment I can't really think of anything that would make this power a better "mixture."

If it's supposed to be offensive (as the current re-roll to-hit indicates), how about the power granting a +1 to-hit modifier to all hand-to-hand attacks made? Against all enemies (those which you hit on +3, 4+, or 5+), a re-roll is more effective than a plus one. That de-powers the ability, and takes out that element of randomness, which satisfies both you and me.

Or inversely, in the defensive case, the power could impose a -1 modifier to all to hit rolls in hand-to-hand which have been allocated to the GK unit.

Just ideas i guess, but that's what this is about, sharing ideas and coming to a deserving conclusion.

I would like to finish this post with a couple of thoughts: Given these three alternatives i see a problem. the +1/-1 to hit options seem inherently stronger than your proposal, perhaps better than the 25 pt aim. On the otherhand, given the random nature of your option, it seems to be less useful than the 25 pts. I guess aiming for something seemingly over-costed is probably the best, since people have the tendency to only be ok with the points cost of something if it's empirically under-costed. Meh. It turns out that by exploring a few different options of my own, I came to the conclusion that the thing which i was first critiquing might be best. Yay, futility!

Edited by doomshroom, 09 February 2010 - 08:25 AM.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

My only issue with silent step is that i don't like the idea of the grey knights employing a tactic which might leave one of their number lost in the warp. It seems like a risk they would be unwilling to take, not because of the fatality, but because of the fact that a grey knight is hanging out in the warp, just waiting for the great four to figure out what makes him tick, or something similar to this.

The same deal applies with teleporting, but they do it nonetheless.

[doomshroom]

I was under the impression that the dangers with teleporting were entirely physical, like emerging in a solid block of granite.